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DPP OU Team Astral Projection (Ranked #1)

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by husk, Jun 29, 2008.

  1. Aldaron

    Aldaron indefatigable workhorse
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    This isn't a team rate, so don't take it as such. Just a passing comment.

    I have to get on the bandwagon and support what everyone is saying. Do you remember our battle, husk? I think what it revealed was your own team's huge issue with Deoxys-S. My Deoxys-S KOed your Aerodactyl, and then your Doexys-S only did 98% (after a speed tie) and my Deoxys-S OHKOed because it had expert belt and your Deoxys-S had lost health due to Life Orb.

    I'd definitely say your number one issue is Deoxys-S with Expert Belt, because the Life Orb variants can easily be played around.

    I wish I auto saved logs so I could actually show you what I mean instead of the theorymonning going on here =/
  2. Pulse

    Pulse

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    I don't think husk is denying the fact that he is Deoxys weak. I can't speak for him since he only posted the OP and hasn't responded yet, but the fact of the matter is that reaching a rank of 1740 on the ladder with a Sweeping Offensive team is justification in itself that Deoxys's presence is not enough to completely remove these teams from the metagame. Plus, there have been quite a few comments on how to fix this weakness. A good friend of mine (DawnBringer) has been using a variant of this team with Metagross in it to help fix the Deoxys weakness and it still works wonders, getting him to 1500 in no time at all last night.


    husk: This is really a great team. I remember a few months ago I would only use all out offensive teams, and now I think with this RMT you will have revitalized this style of play in the metagame. Congrats on the Shoddy ranking and I hope the team brings more success along the way. As for changes, I would really consider putting Stone Edge on Garchomp in place of Dragon Claw. I've used CBChomp on a few of my teams and I've found Stone Edge to be extremely useful in the long run. Other than that I really would not change a thing.
  3. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    I faced this team 4 times yesterday from 4 different players ... and none of them were you. 3 of them said they saw this team on marriland and were testing it out when I confronted them.

    Anyway when I was playing yesterday I noticed that although you can get around Deoxys-S by itself, a combo of Deoxys-S and Magnezone can easily bring this team down. Generally my Deoxys just swept this team easily until their(your) deoxys-s came in. I switch to Magnezone as they Shadow Ball, and OHKO with thunderbolt as you superpower. SuperPower and Shadow Ball will not ko magnezone, allowing zone and deoxys-s to become a huge threat to the team.

    But for some reason after analyzing the team I just cant find a way to fix that problem. What I feel is that your prediction and general "know pokemon inside and out" is leading you to victories. Although my deoxys-s and zone combo beat all 4 players using it, I doubt it could beat you, simply because you would most likely switch in Garchomp to take the thunderbolt, knowing that I would attack and knowing that SuperPower would not kill my Magnezone.

    So tl;dr: The team is pretty much as good as it could possibly be. What makes the team simply outstanding is most likely your prediction and the constant pressure you put on an opponent.

    Good Job Husk, outstanding team.
  4. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    Since other people seem to be popping in with random comments...

    I wanted to address this part of your post with something I posted earlier in the thread. Your argument doesnt work against D-S, because the reason why he can win isn't because D-S is weak, its because it is ineffective because of the progression towards bulky offense that D-S itself was the cause. People aren't going to use D-S much if every team is packing Bronzong, its as simple as that. It's not just husk's playing that allows him to escape his D-S weakness, its the fact that nobody is using D-S because everyone is so overprepared for it. Deoxys' presense has already removed so many of these teams that husk can win simply because people aren't ready for it. Why bother protecting yourself against something that hasn't been used for months anyways? The fact that husks team is now winning is evidence for the impact that Deoxys has, this team which would have been standard fare months ago is now catching people by surprise because of how much D-S has changed things single-handedly. Once people start shifting back to adjust, D-S' usage will rise and these teams will once again fade into obscurity because of the centralizing presense of only one pokemon.

    I'm not taking anything from husk or this team (since I love this style of play and this team), but your post shows that you didn't understand the argument presented against D-S and I wanted to point this out. Also...did you notice that his amazing team that everyone loves happens to use Deoxys as its anchor? just sayin >_>

  5. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    It's a good offensive team, and plays with a great offensive strategy of overwhelming the opponent. However, as Jrrrrrr already pointed out, the Deoxys-E weak is blatant as hell and only proves so many people's point about why he demolishes offensive teams.
  6. Aldaron

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    No, it does not prove any point. An example never proves a point.
  7. DawnBringer

    DawnBringer The thrill of attempting to get what you will neve
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    It's true I put a Metagross in the team and I have yet to lose with it, but I didn't do just that. I added a different pokemon and I also changed some movesets around. I have seen multiple people use just filling in on Husk's team (some > Deoxys-S, some > Lucario), but either way. I've seen both variants fall, simply because they added another weak to their team or the lack of speed because of the change.

    As well, as much as you'd guys think (not all) that this team is 'unbeatable' similar to Obi's stall team, you are wrong. I have definitely seen Husk lose with this team, whether to hax or just being outplayed in general. It's not full proof but everytime I do see it in action. Deoxys-S is definitely [like jrrr(rrrrrrr) said] the anchor and is what really keeps this team intact.

    Just like to stop by and say great team Husk.
  8. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    My point exactly...
  9. Scofield

    Scofield Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
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    Yep this team is getting the daylights stolen out of it. I had to stop playing just because I was so tired of seeing it. Oddly enough, the one time I played husk I beat him (albeit, barely iirc) and I have lost to this team numerous times from impersonators. My combo of starmie and scarfgengar gave it the majority of its problems. Now I need to make a team exclusively to counter this one just because I see it so much : /
  10. husk

    husk
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    Well it's SpAtk is barely lowered and I mainly like explosion because of it's sheer destructive power. You never know what it'll be useful for.

    Deoxys and Gengar's roles would only overlap if I scarfed Gengar and even then Deoxys would do a better job of revenge killing.
    This team doesn't really have that kind of time during matches. It's a waste if they just WW me out with skarm or use leech seed Celebi and 3hko me.

    Dragon Claw is actually really useful. I don't really have any theorymon to back it up but I DClaw/EQ pretty often early game to mess with my opponents. Outrage+SR ohkos both zapdos and togekiss btw. Though it is true that I'm locked in...most people stick around to take it and if they don't I'm usually 2hkoing whatever they switch to.


    It only proves that you can be successful without getting your panties in a bunch over Deoxys-s.


    Not quite. It means that the fact that I am Deoxys-s weak is irrelevant to how often I win. I can't recall a match where I've lost more than two pokemon to it with this team.

    I'm not even sure why this paragraph is here. It's not like I did not face a large number of Deoxys-s' over my journey to number #1. Maybe it's just me but Deoxys-s isn't nearly whatever you're making it out to be.

    Yeah I got my ass handed to me the first time I saw agility gross (it had that exact set and I was betting it had ice punch so I sent out gyara -_-). Now I have to make sure I attack metagross head on each time I see it instead of switching.

    Yeah, I have a pretty big problem with that. I'd replace bp with crunch if I saw that cress more often.

    No problem.

    Yeah. Though it depends. Sometimes I know the player and that they use Explosion and not EQ as their last move so I'll bring in Lucario occasionally.

    I tested it and bp worked out better. As mentioned earlier reflect cress dominates me so if that were more common I would change it.

    Yeah I tried it but it can't function as readily as my "massacre man". The extra turn that it needs puts me into a fair bit of danger and it can't handle zapdos like that anyway.




    Well that's it for the first page! I'll respond to everyone else in a bit.
  11. CAY

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    This is a great team, i´ve always liked offensive teams, but i dont have the prediction skillz to pull them off effectively, so i´ll rely on stalling teams lol, but just one question, how do you deal with CB Jolly Dugtrio, it can easily take down Gengar, if you have something else asleep, Lucario wont OHKO with E-Speed, and Deoxys, just like Gengar gets down with Sucker Punch, and its not like, Gyara or Aero will enjoy taking Stone Edges, i know Dugtrio shouldnt take down more than 1 pokemon in your team, as theyre all set up sweepers it cant take on if they´ve, well, set upped XD, but i found that, some of them, get trapped and easily Ko´d, losing a valuable member like Gengar or Deoxys isnt good.
  12. McLovinn

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    I would put Crunch over Bullet Punch on Lucario, as to take good care of Celebi. KD24 helped me make a team surrounding SDLuke, and I have to admit, its an absolutely worthwhile addition to any team.

    I see you've taken alot of time and effort in building this team, and I'll come and give it more rates a bit later.
  13. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    This team is not scarftran weak because Gyarados and Garchomp can counter it
    I think Crunch is better in Lucario than BP, mainly because celebi and cress with reflect
  14. Aldaron

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    Anyway, I am going to try and fix your issue with Deoxys-S, Husky wusky. I also noticed the fact that a Jolly Swords Dance Lucario with Swords Dance, Close Combat, Stone Edge and Bullet Punch can OHKO every member on your team with Stealth Rock down (besides Deoxys-S, who takes 68-81% damage from Bullet Punch); also, the standard SubCM Jirachi seems to rip this team another one, as Thunderbolt will take care of Aerodactyl / Gyarados, Gengar and Deoxys-S will barely be able to break the subs, Lucario is always beaten by standard ones since standard runs 308 (at least it should), and Garchomp is outsped at 308.

    First, how necessary is Life Orb on Deoxys-S? Generally speaking (and this is very general lol), you're going to be using a SE attack, and when you don't, it is because your opponent has predicted the move and hoped to take 10% life from you, right? By using Expert Belt you might lose power in situations like Thunderbolt on Jirachi / Bronzong switching in or Swampert switching in on an Ice Beam, but I feel those are wasted turns anyway since the 25% or so you are going to do (Leftovers) is actually less of a hindrance than the 10% they took from you, and likely 16.25% due to Sandstorm.

    If you run Expert Belt you won't really suffer in any conceivable SE attack that I can think of, you won't waste precious Deoxys-S HP by using a worthless attack, and at worst you will have a 50 / 50 check against other Deoxys-S. Run Expert Belt unless Life Orb is giving you some mysterious damage potential that I cannot see right now.

    I also recommend you run a spread of 4 HP / 72 Def / 180 SpA / 252 Spe, for 242 HP / 234 Def / 271 SpA / 504 Spe. This 234 Def allows you to never be OHKOed by a Life Orb Jolly Lucario Bullet Punch after One Swords Dance and assuming you have switched Deoxys-S twice into Stealth Rock or into Stealth Rock + Spikes (essentially, it always does less than 75%). Just as auspiciously, that same Lucario's Extremespeed never OHKOes (without the entry hazards this time though), and the Adamant version's Extremespeed does not OHKO on average. Just gives you a handy little "check" against this monster. Also, I emphasize Jolly because Garchomp deals with Adamant Lucario fine.

    Essentially, I am asking you to lose damaging potential by switching Life Orb for Expert Belt and losing 18 SpA points for some Defense and HP, in order to better deal with Deoxys-S and Lucario. I really can't imagine a scenario where the damage drop is a significant issue, but I can definitely see how Deoxys-S and Jolly Lucario are issues. Run Expert Belt and use 4 HP / 72 Def / 180 SpA / 252 Spe for the EV spread.

    Second, I would recommend making Garchomp Jolly. I know...it pains me even to suggest this. I absolutely ADORE Adamant CB Chomp; the 10% increase in damage is actually that awesome. However...for your specific team, I must request you switch it to Jolly. This would immediately help you with Lucario and Jirachi, and would give a 50 / 50 against Yache Chomp variants, which I am sure occasionally irritate you. I know you lose the high probability of a 2HKO with Outrage on Hippo / Cress, and I know you lose the 2HKO with Outrage on Magnezone (can't tell you how many times it has saved me), but it seems to me that your team is dynamically built to have those Pokemon at sub 90% health mid-battle anyway. Make Garchomp Jolly.

    Third...now, I know firsthand how awesome Gengar's ability to switch into the battle is...and I use Gengar not only for its offensive potential but also its defensive potential as well (that's why I never got the Darkrai > Gengar thing I mean Gengar is wayyyy easier to switch in). However...I have to say this is your major weak link. A Gengar leaves you vulnerable to Deoxys-S, other Gengar, and + 308 Speed Steels like SubCM Jirachi and Scarf Heatran / Metagross (especially Metagross with ThunderPunch / Ice Punch). I don't think the Fighting / Normal / Ground immunities, and the Bug / Grass resists are THAT paramount since without Gengar you have one more resist than weakness for all 5. Since playing a heavily offensive team like this requires well managed playing anyway, I think you can accept the +1 bit.

    So at this juncture I'm still looking at what Deoxys-S / Gengar / Azelf / ScarfMetagross can do to you, and I'm starting to worry about Raikou's effect on the team. CB Dugtrio also gives you issues, especially with Sucker Punch, and you know your own Celebi issues, which Gengar doesn't necessarily solve if the Celebi is a Calm Mind Psychic variant. I'm pretty convinced that replacing Gengar with something that helps you deal with all of those is almost a total win-win situation, as the benefits Gengar brings to you are almost excessive, besides maybe Hypnosis and the occasional utility of Explosion. Something that can deal with all of them + let you keep the utility of Explosion?

    ScarfHeatran, Naive and at 252 Speed. This will allow you to deal with all the aforementioned problems while seriously helping you against those + 308 Speed Steels. I know that it causes your +2 Fighting / Ground to even out at neutral efficiency, but I'm confident in your ability to play around it, and I think that dealing with the Raikou / Deoxys-S / Gengar / Azelf / Metagross issues is far more important than dealing with Fighting / Ground issues.

    Fire Blast will always OHKO Gengar / Azelf with Stealth Rock and deal with Lucario / Metagross / Jirachi / Celebi; Earth Power will help deal with Raikou; Explosion will be there for its general utility (and at 216 Attack, more powerful than the 158 Attack Life Orb Gengar Explosion). The fourth move can be whatever you want, though I would recommend either HP Electric (as Gyarados will switch into you, and you will be forced to switch out and then back in, and if by chance what you switched out loses, Heatran is still faster than almost all the standard variants of Gyarados) or HP Ice (obvious reasons). I would recommend HP Electric since I would rather Explode on a 100% Garchomp late game.

    In other words, I feel that replacing your Life Orb Gengar for a Choice Scarf Heatran will significantly help you in your main issues, and the negative effects of losing Gengar are not that significant. Replace Gengar with Heatran.

    That's pretty all I can say for your team. I have a thing for cool leads, so I spent some extra time dissecting your team :P

    Hope this helps you!

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