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DPP UU Team canistra - a UU joint RMT

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by moi, Sep 20, 2009.

  1. moi

    moi

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    1,338
    This is a joint RMT between moi and tennisace

    With Dugtrio’s fall into UU, and my (moi the best) attempted comeback into competitive all tier battling, I had finally thought of a team strategy that isn’t seen nowadays, especially in UU, a Trap Team. With the enlisted help of tennisace, we started our task.

    The Offensive Unit
    Looking at the list of viable trappers, it basically consists of Honchkrow (via Pursuit), Dugtrio, and Magneton. We had initially planned to base the team off of these forces, along with the aspect of U-Turn, and using other sweepers to force things out. Dugtrio and Magneton allow us to remove many of the Steels that hamper Honchkrow’s ability to sweep, so it had seemed like a perfect fit.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Because of some of the main weaknesses that our trappers had, we had decided we needed a bulky water, to help for Ice, Water, and Fire attacks headed towards Magneton and Dugtrio. We had also realized that many potential threats weren’t assured to be removed by both Magneton and Dugtrio, hampering Honchkrow’s ability to sweep. We were content with a Sub Azumarill, which can force out Fire types, allowing easy set up, or can Substitute up on potential status threats from bulkier walls.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    The Support Unit
    While trapping by itself is potent as a revenge killing solution, it doesn’t allow us to get any advantage as all that really happens is me going one for one, then getting set up on by the switch in afterwards. As such, I needed a solution to get myself into an advantageous position from the start. This is accomplished by using U-Turn.

    We had wanted something that could set up Stealth Rocks initially as well. Uxie was a fine choice for this position. Due to its bulk and immunity, it could do for repeated switch-ins, functioning as the glue for this team. It also got access to two very important moves, Yawn and U-Turn. After the initial Stealth Rock set up, Yawn can easily be used along with U-Turn to trap any potential threats to our team.
    [​IMG]
    While Uxie is on the slower end of the spectrum, being able to take a hit for the recipient of U-Turn, we had also wanted a second U-Turn user. Ambipom turned out to be the perfect fit for the team, adding not only a helpful immunity to Ghost, a threatening Pokémon that can force switches, but it also has access to a move that is detrimental to the success of the team. Knock Off allows my team to trap things it normally would not, and some of these things are Pokémon that easily switch in to it.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Current Team
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    As the testing of the team progressed, we had realized a key problem with one slot of the team. Honchkrow had a serious issue that couldn’t be fixed, which was a Stealth Rock weakness. Due to the nature of the team and its dependence on switching, it wouldn’t do without making serious changes to the set up. Roserade, while not having the same pseudo-trapping ability that Honchkrow does, possesses the ability to induce status, the ability to switch into them, resistances that helps my team switch, and is a very potent threat once some of its counters have been trapped.

    THE TEAM
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG] @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP/44 Atk/216 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    ~ Zen Headbutt
    ~ Yawn
    ~ U-turn
    ~ Stealth Rock

    Uxie serves as the team's glue. It has the ability to switch into multiple attacks, and allows for easier switch-ins to multiple Pokémon.

    The EVs given allow it to outspeed all lead Roserade, except for Scarf Roserade, which aren't as much of a threat in comparison to other variants. This is also the reason that Zen Headbutt is used over Psychic, being able to more easily deal with Roserade's lackluster Special Defense.

    Uxie's greatest compliment to this team, however, is its ability to succesfully use the U-Turn/Yawn combo. Not only does this allow the team to scout out enemies, it makes the job of trapping so much easier, and always allows the team to gain a dominant position at the start of the battle.

    To clarify, first, we set up Stealth Rock. Then, we Yawn. Usually at that time, the opponent will switch to another Pokemon to avoid status. Finally, we U-turn to keep up momentum. For example, if Honchkrow is switched in, we U-turn as it comes in to damage it, and bring in Azumarill. That way, it has ~40% damage on it before we bring in our answer.


    [​IMG] @ Leftovers
    Ability: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 108 HP/148 Spd/252 SAtk
    Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Thunderbolt
    ~ Magnet Rise
    ~ Hidden Power [Fire]

    Part one of the trapping tandem, little Maggy performs much the same job that Magnezone does in OU, just against different threats. Magneton's main job is to help remove those pesky Steels that hurt Roserade's chances later on. Due to the nature of the team, it has multiple chances in the game to do its job and it does it well.

    An often unappreciated aspect of Magneton, however, is its value as a defensive check to the team. It's ability to freely switch in and set up Substitute is often undervalued in comparison to the trapping value it brings to the plate. With this defensive ability, it has that pretty scary Thunderbolt coming off of 120 Special Attack, which isn't the nicest thing to switch into.

    Lastly, Magneton serves as a two part last stand against rain teams. With the ability to often set up against Rain Dance leads, Magneton threatens the mostly Water-type teams with that huge Thunderbolt, and means that this team is not easily dismantled by those teams.


    [​IMG] (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Arena Trap
    EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    ~ Earthquake
    ~ Stone Edge
    ~ Night Slash
    ~ Sucker Punch

    Part two of the tandem, the three headed beast! Dugtrio, while being fragile, is used as the primary revenge killer, and, thanks to the nature of the team, is able to trap certain threats that stand in Roserade's way.

    Life Orb is the item of ability due to one thing: how easily Dugtrio becomes setup bait after the first attack. Due to the nature of the team, the only damage that Dugtrio is usually taking is residual, meaning that it will have plenty of oppurtunities to attack throughout the match, so Life Orb recoil isn't that much of a problem.

    Aerial Ace isn't used on this set is for one simple reason: it isn't worth it. While Fighting-type threats are easier to get rid of with it, Dugtrio is, for the most part, always fearful of priority damage it has to take. This team also does fairly well against Fighting-types and, as such, we'd rather use Night Slash to stop those Mismagius from attempting to set up and without the unreliable Stone Edge.


    [​IMG] (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Huge Power
    EVs: 252 HP/248 Atk/8 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Aqua Jet
    ~ Focus Punch
    ~ Toxic/Ice Punch

    The team's bulky Water, Azumarill's role goes much further than serving as a safe switch in to multiple attacks. It basically is the most important member of the team, serving as our Offensive catch-all in addition to its defensive role.

    Outside of switching in to multiple attacks well, Azumarill easily forces things out. This is a key factor, as it allows it to set up Substitute, which is where the fun really begins.

    Azumarill is a huge stall breaker, and with Substitute up, can deal with a plethora of stall threats with any choice of move. While being hampered by Bulky Waters, Toxic helps to alleviate this problem.

    (tennisace's note: I've always prefered Ice Punch for its ability to lay the hurt on Grass-types that like to switch in and Donphan. The reason for this is that I usually play around Magneton, only using it when absolutely needed, so that when the time comes I can nail the bulky Water-types. The same goes for Roserade. Between the two, there is no bulky Water-type problem.)

    Azumarill is Magneton's partner in crime when it comes to breaking up rain teams. With the help of Uxie's Yawn and U-Turn support, Azumarill most always sets up a Substitute against rain teams, and proceeds to damage them with rain boosted Aqua Jet, and threatens the Rock Swift Swimmers with Focus Punch.


    [​IMG] (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    ~ U-turn
    ~ Double Hit
    ~ Fake Out
    ~ Knock Off

    As previously stated, Ambipom, though with mostly the same moveset, serves a completely different role to this team as it does to most. Ambipom manages to force out quite a significant portion of the metagame due to the ever threatening Fake Out.

    Outside of the obvious key moves of U-Turn, and the ever handy Fake Out, Knock Off proves to be an effective move. Due to the fact that Ambipom's most threatening moves are normal type, Steels are and Ghosts are the most available ways to deal with it. Knock Off does wonders against both things. Due to Dugtrio's fall into UU, plenty of Steels have started carrying Shed Shell to deal with it. Knock Off allows my trappers to carry out with their initial plan, instead of being stopped by Shed Shell. Knock Off also deals with Ghost-types, and more specifically, helps this team deal with Mismagius, something that can most easily come in on the revenge to threaten this team.

    The use of Double Hit, while not overly frowned upon, is to stop any potential threats with Focus Punch against the team. When anything can set up against a team that is quite fragile it often spells for quite a bit of trouble. The added Attack bonus is just a plus.


    [​IMG] (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Synthesis
    - Leaf Storm
    - Sleep Powder

    Coming off the bench is Roserade! While benefiting from the removal of the same walls that Honchkrow did, Roserade lacks the weakness to Stealth Rock, which was a key factor in our decision to switch it out. Roserade's ability, Natural Cure, also replaces the loss of Insomnia, and adds on so much more by being able to switch in other status. The typing and the ability to switch in repeatedly thanks to Synthesis compliment this team, a team that greatly needed secondary switches into many threats.

    To be honest, while being the standard Life Orb Roserade, it is a greatly potent threat. As said, Roserade picks up the slack for where Honchkrow dropped off. After a lot of what counters Roserade is removed from play, it has the ability to drastically change the face of the game. Without Chanseys or Registeels, it is able to at least get one kill through the incredibly high powered Sludge Bomb and if needed, Leaf Storm.


    Throughout the team, there have been threats that have been identified. While not specifically having an overly threatening type of team, it is a single move. Spikes. The majority of the team is land based, along with the fact that it's fairly simple to get at least one layer against this team, and the strategy used makes it a real pain in the side. This isn't to say that it isn't possible to play around, as obviously, conserving switches and playing smart with move selection will help cut down on the affect that Spikes has against the team. The main issue is that you can't add something to get rid of Spikes without drastically changing the makeup of the team, and is just something we've had to live with.
  2. tennisace

    tennisace BAPBAPBAPBAPBAPBAP
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    Threat List

    Defensive Threats
    [​IMG] – Who uses Articuno to begin with? Magneton shuts it down quite well resisting both of its STABs and having an immunity to Toxic. For the most part, it can't switch in well due to Stealth Rocks. Azumarill can take Ice attacks generally well and smash it into the next time zone with Focus Punch if Substitute is up, yet it fears random Toxics. Dugtrio can revenge kill with Stone Edge barring luck.

    [​IMG]- Perish Song makes no difference to the team since there aren't any set-up sweepers. Roserade can do around 50% with Sludge Bomb every time it switches in, and combined with Stealth Rock you get a dead cotton ball. In addition, if we're running Ice Punch on Azumarill, that can take care of it nicely also.
    [​IMG] – Roserade can come in easily on every move except for Ice Beam, and threatens with Leaf Storm. Magneton can switch in to Rapid Spin, Toxic, and Ice Beam, and can set up on Surf, however, it can't survive 2 of them.
    [​IMG] – For ones without Shed Shell, Dugtrio does a nice job of coming in and pillaging the annoying blob, however, can't take 3 Seismic Tosses. For those with, Azumarill does quite nicely in that its subs cannot be broken by one Seismic Toss, and Focus Punch will do a nice bit to that pretty little face, however, it fears switching into any sort of status..
    [​IMG] - Roserade fears Ice Beam / Psychic but can otherwise come in and Leaf Storm or Sleep Powder. Magneton outspeeds and can Magnet Rise and proceed to out-stall them, helped by Claydol's lack of recovery. Azumarill can come in on weakened ones and revenge kill it with Aqua Jet while taking minor damage.
    [​IMG] – For ones without Encore (yes, there are some), Azumarill is the primary switch in. From there, sub, and proceed to mash its face in. For the ones with Encore, Fake Out with Ambipom, U-turn to Uxie, repeat as necessary until well-dead. Alternatly Dugtrio can pick off weakened ones, and Leaf Storms and Sludge Bombs from Roserade hurt.
    [​IMG] – Brb blasting into next week. Seriously what doesn’t rip a gaping hole in this? Magneton and Roserade can smash it nicely, however, Roserade fears potential Ice Shards. Azumarill can easily come in and set up Substitute while blasting away with Focus Punch.
    [​IMG] – Not seen all that often, although when it does it can kinda be a pain to take down. However, repeated Focus Punches from Azumarill hurt, the real question is setting up. If put to sleep Roserade can generally wear it down with Sludge Bomb, even in Sandstorm, Ambipom and Uxie can throw around their U-Turn spamming and Dugtrio can trap and revenge kill.
    [​IMG] – Dugtrio can trap and kill weakened versions. Azumarill can Focus Punch and Aqua Jet since it only has Rest as recovery, however, it is slightly difficult to set up.
    [​IMG] – Roserade crushes it into little elephant bits, however, CB versions can deal quite a bit of damage. Magneton can wall it and chip away at it with HP Fire. Azumarill can set up a sub and deal damage with it after, with eithe Ice Punch or Toxic.
    [​IMG] – We're pretty sure Roserade OHKOs with a -2 Leaf Storm… Besides, the rest of the team beats it down pretty well.
    [​IMG] – Set-up bait for Azumarill. Dugtrio can easily pick off weakened ones on the revenge, or if we predict a support move.
    [​IMG] – Trapped and OHKO by Dugtrio, unless it heavily invests in Defense, and the Electric immunity. In addition, Roserade makes quick work of it by resisting both STABs and not caring about status.
    [​IMG] – Magneton shuts it down completely, and Dugtrio can trap it easily if predicting an Electric move.
    [​IMG] – Roserade can switch in on pretty much everything and unleash Sludge Bombs. In a pinch, Magneton’s HP Fire will hurt it quite a bit, as it doesn’t have recovery.
    [​IMG] – Everything on the team hits it hard really, it doesn’t have recovery so we can just keep pounding away at it. In particular, Magneton resists it’s STAB, and Thunderbolts hurt it quite nicely. CM versions can be a BIT of trouble except for the fact that Ambipom can Fake Out + Knock Off or U-Turn.
    [​IMG] – Roserade can knock it around with Leaf Storm, especially since more and more aren’t using Ice Beam in favour for HP Grass. The majority switch into a Toxic from Azumarill or Focus Punch, both of which cripple it for the future. Magneton can deal with it afterwards, however, it takes quite a bit off of Surf.
    [​IMG] – An Azumarill Focus Punch to the udders deals quite nicely with the damn cow… We’re still taking revenge for Whitney’s Miltank, however, we have to be warry of Body Slam paralyzing it.
    [​IMG] – The defensive versions are beaten by Azumarill, and if it doesn’t have a sub up, Dugtrio with Stone Edge. However since Stealth Rock is usually up, one Aqua Jet usually suffices.
    [​IMG] – Magneton can easily wear it down, since it can’t do much to it, as can Azumarill. Dugtrio can trap and pick off the weakened ones.
    [​IMG] – Roserade hits it quite hard with Leaf Storm, Azumarill hits it quite hard with Aqua Jet, Dugtrio can trap and pick off the weakened ones, or when a Toxic Spike is predicted.
    [​IMG] – Kind of interesting in that it can trap our trappers, however it can only hurt Dugtrio with Ice Beam. Azumarill Focus Punches also hurt it nicely, as does Roserade’s Leaf Storm and Sludge Bomb.
    [​IMG] – Can trap Magneton, however Dugtrio can trap it! And even if it tries to trap Magneton, Magneton can still Magnet Rise and beats it with Thunderbolt.
    [​IMG] – Dies to Leaf Storm, like Gastrodon.
    [​IMG] – Wait people actually use this? Anything on the team can beat it down easily, since I (tennisace) doesn’t think it even gets Rest lol.
    [​IMG] – Azumarill and Roserade deal with it easily, in a pinch Magneton can wall it with Magnet Rise. Dugtrio can, once again, pick off the weakened ones.
    [​IMG] – Azumarill does even better against Regice than against Regirock, however, must have previously set up Substitute or is reliant on Sleep support from either Yawn or Sleep Powder.
    [​IMG] – Azumarill can set up on it and Focus Punch it. Magneton can trap it, and set up on it. Dugtrio can also trap it.
    [​IMG] – Roserade can whack around the defensive ones, and it doesn’t care about status.
    [​IMG] – Lol Shuckle. Dugtrio can trap and kill with Stone Edge when weakened, Azumarill can set up on it when it uses Rest (fuck Encore), Roserade can Leaf Storm and sleep it. It’s pretty easy to beat down, since all it does is sit there.
    [​IMG] – Roserade can Leaf Storm it, and it doesn't enjoy sleep, Magneton can use Thunderbolt it and more easily switch in to Psychics, and if we’re running Toxic on Azumarill we can status it on the switch in.
    [​IMG] – Just pound away at it really. Roserade is quite effective since it doesn’t care about Will-O-Wisp, and can at worst 2HKO with Leaf Storm.
    [​IMG] – Uxie can’t really do that much to the team. Roserade doesn’t care about status, and after we've set up Stealth Rock, Uxie can be just as effective with a Scarf. Magneton can Substitute and just pound away at it, however, fears status.
    [​IMG] – Doesn't enjoy switching into Roserade's sleep, as even the 0.5x STABs can wear down Weezing. Magneton also 2HKOs it with Thunderbolt, and it's really just more of wearing it down.

    Offensive Threats
    [​IMG] - Not too common any more with Honchkrow, however, it can be of a pain to beat. We can Fake Out with Ambipom, then proceed to play mind games with Magneton, and smart switching. A bit of the pain is that a required bit of damage is needed to get it done. However, both Roserade and Azumarill have methods to disarm Sucker Punch, making it easier to deal with.
    [​IMG] – Offensive Altaria are quite uncommon compared to defensive varieties, however, Ambipom strongs priority and physical attacks can deal with it, especially after Stealth Rock. Roserade, while not having a move that can deal normally effective damage, can progressively wear it down with Sludge Bomb and Sleep Powder. Azumarill with Ice Punch can also serve as a check if need be.
    [​IMG] – Magneton is the initial switch in to it, as most don't carry Brick Break. From there, set up Substitute and you've got a fairly good way to get around it. It can be a bit of a pain as a lead, but since most Taunt on the first turn, Uxie can get a good 40% on it.
    [​IMG] – Azumarill beats it almost 100% of the time with Aqua Jet. In addition, if it’s locked into Extremespeed, we can force it out with Magneton and make it take another 25%. Finally, if it’s locked into anything but Extremespeed, Dugtrio can revenge kill it.
    [​IMG] – Roserade can put the hurt on the little bunny with Leaf Storm, and outside of Focus Punch or Superpower, it can’t do much to Magneton either.
    [​IMG] – Dugtrio can revenge kill if it isn’t weakened too bad, because Vacuum Wave hurts a lot. In addition, Uxie serves as a stop-gap check with Zen Headbutt after it’s taken some damage. Finally, Azumarill Aqua Jet easily finishes it off.
    [​IMG] – Azumarill doesn’t care about anything it tries to throw at it really, however must be vary of a suicide attacks.
    [​IMG] – SR will usually be up, meaning that it can’t Belly Drum. Azumarill takes over from there with a nice Aqua Jet to the face.
    [​IMG] – It’s easily beaten down by a lot of our threats. Coming in on a Roserade Leaf Storm does a big chunk to it, and even then it has to fear sleep, so it’s easily trapped by Dugtrio or picked off by Azumarill.
    [​IMG] – Azumarill does quite nicely against the moles, as Aqua Jet does quite a bit. A majority try to switch in against Magneton, only to have to deal with Magnet Rise
    [​IMG] – The repeated U-turns from both Uxie and Ambipom hurt. In addition, Magneton walls anything it has. Azumarill Aqua Jet seals the deal if need be, as well as a Dugtrio revenge.
    [​IMG] – Between Fake Out from Ambipom, and Uxie’s Yawn and general bulk. When attempting to set up a potential Dragon Dance, Azumarill easily comes in and sets up Substitute, and then deals with it by using Focus Punch.
    [​IMG] – Never really seen, though on paper it might be a bit of a problem. However Azumarill can take an Ice Beam or Blizzard and set up a Focus Punch, and Ambipom can use it's priority + attacks to deal with it nicely enough.
    [​IMG] – Roserade’s Leaf Storm and Sludge Bomb really hurts it, along with its typing and Sleep Powder to switch in fairly easily. Uxie threatens it with Zen Headbutt and Yawn.
    [​IMG] – Uxie outspeeds the Choice Band versions and does a lot back with Zen Headbutt.
    [​IMG] – Technitop can get pretty annoying for the team, though Uxie can basically wall it. Intimidate versions are normally spinners, and Roserade can beat them with Leaf Storm, Sludge Bomb, and Sleep.
    [​IMG] – Stealth Rock hurts it, and it can’t switch into anything except a Dugtrio Earthquake and Uxie. Ambipom and Azumarill take care of it quite nicely with priority, and the Choice Band versions can easily be outpredicted by using Magneton switch ins.
    [​IMG] – The general plan is to get to Ambipom, or Azumarill, both of which use a combination of priority and Super-Effective moves. Dugtrio can also revenge kill the ones without Sucker Punch.
    [​IMG] – Aqua Jet does a lot inside rain to it, and if set up, Focus Punch will finish the job. In addition, Roserade obliterates it out of Rain. Finally, Magneton can hurt it in a pinch.
    [​IMG] - Roserade can deal with ones without Ice Shard. However, Magneton has to deal with the ones with Ice Shard.
    [​IMG] – Roserade deals with it quite nicely. In addition, it can’t touch Magneton without Baton Passing, and becomes setup bait for Substitute.
    [​IMG] – Can’t touch Magneton. Azumarill can beat it with priority if it doesn’t have a Salac.
    [​IMG] – If it doesn’t have a Sub up, Azumarill can hit it with Aqua Jet, however, can only switch in on Fire-type attacks. If it does, Ambipom breaks the sub, then Dugtrio can revenge kill it.
    [​IMG] – Even in Trick Room, Azumarill’s priority beats it. Outside of Trick Room, Roserade laughs at it. Switch in is a bit of a pain, but it can't really switch into much (just try switching into Magneton and see what happens!)
    [​IMG] – Scarfed ones can be played around, before finally finishing it off with priority, however, this requires Uxie. Once the type is figured out, it becomes much more easier to play around.
    [​IMG] – Bleh this can get annoying. Sub CM versions get Knock Off’d by Ambipom, and finished off by Azumarill if Ambipom doesn't survive. For the most part, it has a fairly easy time switching, so at best Ambipom loses 60%. Trick versions require a bit more prediction, since there really isn’t anyone who wants to take the trick. However, the usual sacrifice would be Uxie. From there it’s pretty easily beaten.
    [​IMG] - Stealth Rock and Azumarill's Aqua Jet make it a non-issue, especially since choiced ones can't recover.
    [​IMG] – Dugtrio can trap it, as it can't do anything to it afterwards. Roserade can tag it with Leaf Storm, Azumarill can pick off the weakened ones with Aqua Jet. Not a problem really.
    [​IMG] – Aqua Jet from Azumarill can take it down easily enough. Dugtrio can revenge kill it. Uxie can switch in if really necessary and stall it out with Yawn, or at least force a switch.
    [​IMG] – Roserade outside of rain obliterates it, in rain it can be weakened by the priority on the team and rain can be stalled out. Uxie can take a hit and Yawn in a pinch, allowing both of our Substitute users to set up.
    [​IMG] – Interesting threat, however it gets beaten down by Stealth Rock and the various priority attacks on the team by playing around with the switches.
    [​IMG] – Uxie basically walls it to next Tuesday, and kills it with Zen Headbutt. In addition, if it doesn’t have a sub up, Magneton can take it down. Finally, Roserade can Leaf Storm it and switch in to a Water attack.
    [​IMG] – Uxie, priority, not much else to discuss.
    [​IMG] – Curse Registeel is a pain in the balls for this team to handle. To beat it, we really need to get Magneton in there early and hope for a crit. Azumarill can also be used off of the same principles. It's really just use all your PP and hope that the percentages are with you.
    [​IMG] – Magneton walls it pretty well. In addition, Uxie outspeeds every version and deals good damage with Zen Headbutt. It can't switch into our own Roserade, either, as Sludge Bomb deals a HUGE dent into it.
    [​IMG] – Stealth Rock + Priority means that it can effectively do nothing.
    [​IMG] – Azumarill makes short work of this shark, though Rough Skin is annoying. In addition, Roserade can revenge kill it, and so can Ambipom.
    [​IMG] – Set up bait for Azumarill and Magneton after the initial attack.
    [​IMG] – Magneton shuts it down 100%, and with all the priority on the team, it’s not getting too far.
    [​IMG] – Azumarill is the main switch-in, since after one switch into SR it gets considerably weaker. Non-scarf versions are revenged by Dugtrio.
    [​IMG] – Uxie can take a hit from most versions. Flame Orb/Toxic Orb weaken it to the point where it can be revenged by the priority moves easily enough.
    [​IMG] – Dugtrio can pick off the weakened versions. Roserade can’t really switch in that safely, however if it gets in, Sludge Bomb hurts it, as well as the sleep threat. Uxie can threaten it with Zen Headbutt.
    [​IMG] - This is probably the biggest threat to the team. Stealth Rock helps a lot, however it requires smart switching to beat it down. The priority moves only go so far really, and it requires a combination of Fake Out, U-turning to Magneton for speed boost or Azumarill for Specs to beat it. Basically, we are guarenteed to lose one pokemon.
  3. Eo Ut Mortus

    Eo Ut Mortus Elodin Smells
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    I really liked the concept of this team when you first told me about it. I know I initially suggested Knock Off on Ambipom, but after seeing that less than 4.8% of Registeel ran Shed Shell last month, it doesn't really seem very applicable anymore. If you find it ineffective as well, you might consider Payback instead to more reliably handle Mismagius.

    One minor nitpick: Magneton only needs 144 EVs in Spe to outrun Adamant Torterra, so the extra 4 evs are unnecessary unless you're interested in outrunning other Magneton. Other than that, I think your team looks solid; nice work.
  4. d2m

    d2m

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    753
    NP Croak can cause quite a few problems for this team. At +2, the only things surviving an attack are Roserade and Azumarril and the latter will be crippled. The fact you rely on Aqua Jet for so many threats gives him plenty of switch ins, and even if you Sub on the turn he NPs, Focus Punch does 50% max to a min/min croak.

    As you mention, you are extremely weak to stall. You have no spin blocker or Rapid Spinner to speak of.

    I'd replace Uxie with a defensive Donphan. Slowbro is a great phsyical wall that helps protect you against the physical threats like Choice Banders and SDers that plague this team. He also Spins, Sets up SR, gets a stronger STAB EQ, and provides "Assurance" against Sub/Charge Rotom and Sub/CM Mismagius that try to switch in or set up on him.

    To extrapolate on the last point, a Choice Banded Normal or Fighting type like Tauros (Jolly Double-Edge to Uxie: (64.59% - 75.92%)) or Hitmonlee (Checked by Uxie, but does 1/3 every time so you can't check him for long) will kill at least one member of your team. You have more than enough capabilities to revenge them, but if they take out Azumarril, they bring in a Fire threat, etc.

    SD Leafeon is more of a problem for this team than you make it out to be. +2 Return outspeeds and OHKOs Roserade 100% of the time. X-Scissor OHKOs Uxie, Leaf Blade OHKOs Azumarril and Dugtrio and 2HKOs Magneton (who fails to OHKO with HP Fire, 66.67% chance with SR or LO recoil assuming he's at full health and came in for free.)

    To check Leafeon and add synergy to the team, I'd replace Ambipom with a Swellow running Facade/U-Turn/Brave Bird/Protect. It provides a fast U-Turn that can scout and bring in Dugtrio to trap. Protect is useful if you replace your lead with this (since I recommended Uxie be replaced, if you take that, and this, make Swellow the lead) as it activates Toxic Orb and guards against Fake Out. If not used as a lead, Pursuit is the next viable option as Swellow forces lots of switches, and Quick Attack is somewhat less useful, but can stop rampaging priority sweepers.
  5. moi

    moi

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    1,338
    @eo

    To be honest, we had considered switching Knock Off, but just those "what if" cases adds enough to make the minor attack drop in turn for that move choice valid. Also, the EVs for speed are boosted because of the loss we get for HP Fire.

    @d2m

    The point about Toxicroak is really invalid. It can do that much damage to everything, yes, but you're talking as if it switches in and sets up on the same turn, which it obviously can't. Between this point, I can bring in whatever need dictates, Uxie, who outspeeds it and easily 1HKOs, Roserade, who outspeeds Modest ones, and, as you said, can survive all moves, can be used to Sleep.

    Furthermore, I did not mention a weakness to stall. In fact, this is just the opposite. While I am weak to Spikes, a team of the stall variety is severely crippled by how this team plays. Between trapping and set up moves, stall can easily be broken when key parts are broken by both of those things, allowing us to use our sweepers when these holes are created. Though Spikes are a common part of stall, it is the move, not the type of team, that hurts it, and you make it seem like this isn't something that can't be played around.

    Onto the suggestion of Donphan (which, by the way, you contradict by saying Slowbro after). This takes away very key aspects of the team that I'm not quite sure you understand the importance of. While Rapid Spin would of course be of help to the team, by suggesting we to replace Uxie over Donphan, we lose so much more. We lose the ability to use the wicked combination of U-Turn and Yawn to not only scout but set up our multiple trappers, which from there allows us to easily take the advantage in a match, and can help address the situation of Stall you had talked about earlier? We lose the Ground-type immunity that lacks a Stealth Rock weakness. In comparison, Donphan also opens up plenty of weaknesses on the special side of the spectrum, all for the the pleasure of Rapid Spin. While Rapid Spin would be really helpful to the team, it is a luxury that we'd rather live without to keep the concept that works so well.

    I understand what you are saying about Choice Pokemon, but you overestimate how easily they can switch into the team, and this a really key fact to overestimate. At this point, they are pretty crippled. However, you make a legitimate point with them being able to get one kill a game. And that's all they ever get, which is a fact that I don't think can be stressed enough. While they are a "slight" issue, the fact of the matter is, without changing the makeup of the team in such a way to opening it up to other threats, something that you haven't mentioned when offering suggestions.

    Onto the point of Leafeon (which, by the way, is only seen on 3.2% of teams [though this should never be considered when talking about an argument]). You again assume that it can instantly get both a switch in and a +2 boost on the same turn. Fact is, it doesn't. By this time, things that you say are all 1HKO'd aren't. Another fact that you don't address is how easily it can switch in to anything on the team. Every member of the team has at least one move to threaten it while switching in, something that you didn't address while making your post. You proceed to mention Swellow, which, while having U-Turn, suffers from the same issue that Honchkrow had previously had, but to a much greater degree. The role you are replacing Ambipom with is a speedy U-Turn user, that thas to be capable of switching in multiple times during the game, and offers as a Mini Check to Mismagius. Unfortunately, while Swellow can accomplish the job of a U-Turn, the efficiency that it does this is absolutely pathetic. To add onto the fact that it needs a status item to do any respectable damage, it has to suffer through the residual damage of switching in multiple times to the possibility of Stealth Rock, something that would hamper the effect dynamically. While you managed to offer "replacements", you did not talk about how these replacements have side affects that can be far more detrimental than those that you are replacing.

    I appreciate the rate though!
  6. d2m

    d2m

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2009
    Messages:
    753
    You're right, I didn't notice your Uxie spread outsped him, most spreads don't.
    Having 2 trappers doesn't mean you aren't weak to stall. Standard Chansey/Tangrowth will stop your entire team cold. Any Registeel with Rest can outstall your Magneton as HP Fire is at very best a 4HKO on a Careful Registeel with SpD investment. Cursing Registeel is even more of a problem, though it's not seen on many stall teams. Anyway 95*1.5= 142.5 and 70*2= 140, so T-bolt does more damage to him anyway. I run HP Ice for the boltbeam coverage, but if you want to run HP Fire that's fine too.

    Chansey also won't stay in on Ambipom for you to knock off a Shed Shell if it has one, and if it has Counter, you lose.

    As you said, you are weak to spikes, you have no spinner and you have to either get lucky or straight outplay any good stall team.

    I had it as Slowbro initially then swapped to Donphan. To be perfectly honest, Donphan would work better over Dugtrio, but since that's the focus of your team I changed it.
    Like I said, if a Tauros or something kills Azumarril; Moltres, Arcanine, Magmortar, Blaziken, Houndoom, etc sweep you. You need to either make Uxie more physically sturdy or put in a physical wall (hence the Donphan suggestion) or they'll rip open your team.

    Uxie can phaze it with Yawn if the sleep clause isn't up. Otherwise, not threatening. Outsped and OHKO'd (90.65% - 107.08%) (significant chance even w/o SR).

    Ambipom does crap damage to it although it does outspeed. OHKO'd by anything +2.

    Magneton is the only threatening one with HP Fire doing a significant amount of damage (near OHKO). Already posted calcs up there.

    Azumarril can't do anything significant w/o Ice Punch. OHKO'd by Leaf Blade (no brainer).

    Dugtrio is too weak to do much damage to it. OHKO'd by Leaf Blade (no brainer)

    Roserade can threaten with Sludge Bomb, but is OHKO'd. (Return calc above).

    If it comes in after a death, it can set up on Dugtrio, Ambipom, or Azumarril very easily. Uxie even easier if Sleep Clause is in effect.


    It was supposed to be in conjuction with the Rapid Spinner suggestion, and it added the ground immunity.

    Any time.
  7. moi

    moi

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    1,338
    Since you apparently don't understand what I have been saying, I'll reiterate it and quote the specific parts of your post so you can easily understand

    Ok. First of all, you obviously didn't understand what those lines meant. With two trappers, I can take out the key parts of the teams, opening them up to weaknesses. I have set up Pokemon who can easily take advantage of common Stall users. It is not the two trappers that don't mean I'm not weak to Stall. It's the fact that they are used to open up other weaknesses. You're trying to generalize all those teams as the same thing.

    Next problem. How does Tangrowth stop my team cold? If you are referring to the combination of the two, it is still a completely illegitimate point. While Chansey has Natural Cure, Roserade can wear it down fairly easily with a combination of sleep and Stealth Rock, to go along with Sludge Bomb, doing a more than respectable 20+%. It's not like you're going to see Chansey switching in more than that. Without Leftovers, it's finished off quite easily. With Leftovers, how does it respond to Dugtrio?

    383 Atk vs 339 Def & 641 HP (90 Base Power): 144 - 169 (22.46% - 26.37%)

    If that isn't enough, there are plenty more ways that this team can deal with it. In case you haven't notice, Azumarill has this move called Toxic, can easily set up on Chansey (101 subs), and, while not initially, it wears it down soon enough. The instant Tangrowth switches in on a Toxic spells the end of it.

    Curse Registeel? In case you didn't notice, that was a problem outlined in the Threat List. Shown by your attentiveness to the Uxie case as well, maybe you should read into things more. Even worse, you're running calculations with a move that doesn't do the most damage on the moveset.

    And there's one other thing, too. Don't notice things that you don't suggest replacements to. You keep saying things that you offer no replacement to. If anything, you're making threats out of nothing, and overstating anything you can see. To be quite honest, I'd rather see a combination that is lower than most any other seen in Stall, and have a kind off rough time against it, then to open myself up completely to other things.

    If something kills Azumarill, Fire-types will rip open my team, so to fix this I need to add something physically defensive? There are quite a few problems with this part, but I'll address them step by step. First off, something like CB Tauros doesn't just come in and get rid of it. You seem to forget that I can choose which Pokemon gets sacrificed if need be. The instant this occurs, from the damage it has previously taken (the only time things ever switch in for free is off a revenge). Another thing you discount is that there are more switches in to things like Tauros than Uxie, as Magneton is only 2HKO'd with Stealth Rocks, and even then, the chance is less than fifty. At this point, the recoil damage and any residual damage taken is so much that it can either be killed easily or revenged easily. I don't see a loss of Azumarill in that point. Sure, we're guaranteed to lose a Pokemon in almost every match, but played around smartly and the amount of damage taken is a minimum. I addressed this in a previous post and you didn't understand that, obviously.

    But sure, say I go into a Defensive Uxie. I lose out on plenty more threats there by being able to deal things that, through a combination of Pokemon, I could already address at an almost minimal loss to my team? Or I could go back to Donphan and weaken it even more severely to other things? I said something in my previous post that you really need to understand.

    I mean, it's not like I can revenge most all these threats with Dugtrio, anyways

    This is possibly the most troubling part of the post, though.

    Uxie, like you said, can use Yawn, and can U-Turn to a potential switch out while doing damage in any case that it sets up. You know, if I recalled correctly, when a Pokemon can do

    to something while switching out to anything that can deal with it better that's thought to be pretty significant?

    Wanna see some Ambipom calcs, as well? This one is my personal favorite, U-Turn in, the move that is most used by myself and tennisace?

    299 Atk vs 296 Def & 271 HP (70 Base Power): 134 - 158 (49.45% - 58.30%)

    but hey! Ambipom does pitiful damage, right? Why isn't that looking so pitiful. Look at the Fake Out calc.

    299 Atk vs 296 Def & 271 HP (60 Base Power): 84 - 100 (31.00% - 36.90%)

    Hmm, seems interesting. What happens if it switches in on, say, Double Hit? For ONE Double Hit, Ambipom manages to do this much damage.

    299 Atk vs 296 Def & 271 HP (52 Base Power): 75 - 88 (27.68% - 32.47%)

    So, we're 2 for 2 on addressing the issue of "how does this thing come in in the first place". It doesn't.

    But hey! It can switch in on Azumarill without Ice Punch easily, right? I mean, it's not like something that takes a Toxic enjoys it. It's not also like Focus Punch does just as much as Ice Punch, which ends up doing

    430 Atk vs 296 Def & 271 HP (150 Base Power): 157 - 185 (57.93% - 68.27%)

    Basically, in turn, the Leafeon argument is pretty null. It can't switch in and do the damage you mentioned without taking more turns than that. And in those turns, sets itself up to be picked off quite easily. Let alone that switching in is a problem in the first place, but hey, anything happens! At worst, I lose one Pokemon. Most anything, if they somehow find the perfect opportunity to bring something in, will cause me to lose one Pokemon. That's the game.

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