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Team Cassie Ainsworth: a farewell RMT (peaked #1)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by George Eliot, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. George Eliot

    George Eliot

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    104
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    ***Introduction***

    Hi everyone, I'm George Eliot, and I'm, uh, quitting competitive pokemon. I don’t enjoy playing the game as much as I know most of you do, hence the quitting, but what I do love is teambuilding. This team has been both my favourite to use and my most successful in 5th gen, so I couldn’t leave Pokémon behind without posting it. Some stats; despite being a beyond terrible ladder player, I used an earlier version of this team and one of my old ones to reach #1 on Smogon’s PO server and #3 on Beta near the end of the Genesect playtest, and slightly more recently peaked at #1 Beta just before Christmas. I shared the team around a little bit and I know some other guys who also had success using it (mostly without my permission lol). The changes I've implemented since posting this RMT have made the team even more effective, so thanks to everyone who's given suggestions :)

    My teambuilding philosophy stems from the need to be original. The strongest players can use the bog standard teams to reach the top of the ladders, but I need to take the biggest team matchup advantage I can into battles. Using completely unorthodox teams, like this one, puts experienced opponents in situations they’ve rarely encountered before, taking their intuition out of play. I’m not going to write a teambuilding process because this one just sort of all coalesced one day; instead, I’ll explain how the team works. It’s centred around the idea that Keldeo and Landorus share nearly all the same counters (Celebi, Latias, etc) and nearly all of these can be OHKO’d by a Specs Zoroark. Zoroark primarily masquerades as Keldeo early on, breaking open a defensive core, and leaving the opponent open to a sweep from either Keldeo or Agility Landorus (depending on whether their team is stallish or offensive). The rest of the team works to enable this and cover threats, but I tried to pick members which could also function as useful Illusion partners (Starmie, for instance, also tends to bring in Jellicent / Latias / Celebi).

    Other stuff. Cassie Ainsworth is awesome, go watch her (she’s a character in the British series Skins). Also there’s probably loads of typos, random references to Thundurus instead of Landorus, and generally bad writing in this RMT, so if you find any let me know and I’ll (probably do absolutely nothing to) fix them.


    ***Kinda (but not really) In Depth***



    [​IMG]

    Abomasnow @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)​

    - Wood Hammer
    - Focus Punch
    - Ice Shard
    - Leech Seed​



    [​IMG]

    Starmie @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 40 SAtk / 216 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)

    - Psyshock
    -Recover
    - Rapid Spin
    - Reflect Type



    [​IMG]

    Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)

    - Iron Head
    - Fire Punch
    - Stealth Rock
    - U-turn




    [​IMG]


    Keldeo @ Chesto Berry
    252 HP / 56 SDef / 200 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)​

    - Scald
    - Secret Sword
    - Rest
    - Calm Mind​




    [​IMG]


    Zoroark @ Choice Specs
    4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)​

    - Dark Pulse
    - Focus Blast
    - Flamethrower
    - Trick​



    [​IMG]

    Landorus-I @ Life Orb
    4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)​

    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Focus Blast
    - Agility​



    ***Conclusion***

    Writing this RMT has taken me absolutely forever so I’m glad it’s done now. Hope you enjoyed it, or at least managed to skim through it in one sitting :) I’d also love if you wanted to give the team a try and rehabilitate it for the current meta.

    This is also essentially my official quit thread from pokemon, so I’d like to give a shout out to all the fantastic guys from this forum and on the simulators who I’ve talked to (in a past incarnation lol) and battled over the last few years; I really had a great time here. Thanks for the great battles, the nice guys on the ladders, and the ragers and hax fiends too I guess for their comic relief.

    Goodbye Pokémon. You’re a terrible game and I hate you forever. Expect me back though for a bit when 6th gen rolls around.




    =P
  2. ShootingStarmie

    ShootingStarmie
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,329
    Hello George. First of all congrats on peaking first on the ladder while using such a non-standard team. Using Hail and peeking so high is already an impressive feat, but I don't think I've ever rated a team that's hit 1# with Zoroark, so that's pretty awesome too.

    Now, onto the rate. It's obviously a pretty solid team, but I'm think I'm seeing a slight weakness to Sun teams in general. Venusaur in the sun can out speed everything on your team, but it really doesn't find an opportunity to set up. I guess it could set up on Specs Focus Blast, but I think that's a very situational example that rarely (if ever) would happen.

    Anyway, my suggestion is that you replace Thundurus-T with Landorus-I. It takes pressure off of Starmie to spin, and it takes the same damage from Hail and SR as Zoroark does, making it easier to bluff. Lando-I rapes most Sun teams, and it would still do work against Rain teams (which is the main reason you haven't switched already).

    Overall, I really like how creative this team is in such a stale metagame, and the use of Specs Zoroark is fantastic. Great team (Luvdisc'd).
  3. jpw234

    jpw234

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    118
    This team is really fun, props for making it! I use hail a lot (this specific Abomasnow moveset too), and I find it useful to run 148 Speed EVs in order to outspeed and OHKO standard specially defensive Heatran with EQ. Just a thought!
  4. George Eliot

    George Eliot

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    104
    @Shooting Starmie - Thanks for the kind words :) Venusaur struggles to sweep with Abomasnow on the team, but it in combination with Ninetales does put a lot of pressure on Aboma so Landorus > Thundurus is a really good change. My only worry is that it makes me much weaker to water types.

    @jpw - This is a pretty good suggestion as well. Heatran is one of the only common things which can stop a ScarfRachi sweep once Hail and SR take their toll, so giving myself another opportunity to lure it is nice. Losing the bulk investment could be costly though, especially if I went with Lando -> Thundurus, because it makes handling Rain even harder; so it might just be better to take advantage of Heatran with Starmie or Keldeo. It's definitely something to test out though, so thanks!
  5. Jimbon

    Jimbon fools and worthless liars
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    510
    Hi there,

    This is an incredibly innovative team you have here, and I'm really liking the look of that Keldeo set. For a team that has been proved successful on the ladder, I don't have many changes, but there are a couple things I'd like to address. The first thing that I notice is a somewhat annoying weakness to Specially Defensive Celebi. Thundurus-T has a hard time breaking through it, while it forces out Keldeo and comes in on Starmie for free. You've pretty much got full reliance on Zoroark to deal with Celebi, and that's not counting Celebi switching out on account of your opponent noticing if you've got Zoroark on the field. I'd suggest dropping Earthquake in place of Blizzard on Abomasnow, which will allow you to secure a 2HKO on Celebi thanks to Expert Belt, while Celebi can't do a whole lot back as Specially Defensive sets don't run Hidden Power [Fire]. I'd argue losing Earthquake isn't that big, especially given that you have enough answers for Heatran / Tentacruel, which you should do after my next change.

    If you choose to go with this change, then I'd additionally go with the change of dropping Reflect Type for Recover on Starmie -- while I understand the merits of Reflect Type [beating Scizor, Tyranitar, etc], I'd argue that Recover will have much more consistent use on this team. For a team with a pretty big weakness to Specially Defensive Celebi, it means you're going to be hard pressed against more defensive rain builds carrying Celebi in their defensive core. Recover means that Starmie can continually switch in against stuff like Tentacruel, defensive Politoed, Skarmory and other common members of rain stall builds. Recover also compensates for the loss of Earthquake on Abomasnow, as you have an easier time switching in against Heatran, especially Specially Defensive sets who Starmie can spin for free against and Recover off the damage if the following switch-in doesn't force Starmie out. It also gives you a much better answer for any Keldeo variant, which looks annoying for your team -- especially the Scarf set under Rain. Losing the ability to beat Scizor / Tyranitar isn't that big of a loss, especially since Keldeo uses both for setup fodder anyway.

    But yeah, that's all I have for now. This is an excellent team. Good luck!
  6. Kidogo

    Kidogo

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    462
    Hey, first of all, props for such an innovative team! As others have said, it seems p solid, so just a few comments from me.

    I hate to say it, but I'm not sure I see what aboma is doing for the team. You do defend its usage well, but not only are all 5 other members hurt by hail, limiting set-up opportunities and reducing zoroark's effectiveness, Aboma also accentuats some kinda annoying weaknesses on the team. For example, subsalac terrakion literally 6-0s you with a single turn of set-up, which it can get vs rachi locked into anything but IH, zoroark locked into anything but fblast, forcing out aboma or thundy, and even vs starmie since both his STABs manage 70% max vs terra (40 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 198-234 (61.11 - 72.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). At +2 / +1, it outspeeds and OHKOs everything on the team unfortunately.

    You cite as the main reasons for keeping aboma ice shard, anti-weather (beating stuff like tenta and amoonguss), and wall-breaking ability. I wonder if you might want to try out someyhing like taunt/subtoxic gliscor, which beats dragons p well (I assume thats the main usefullness of shard), can beat both tenta and amoonguss 1-on-1, and most importantly is a great answer to terrakion. It definitely makes you weaker to rain though. An alternative is the ever-awesome NP celebi--not only is it a great mon vs rain, but with its nice bulk it can take on both dragons and terrakion easily, and it does a nice job wall-breaking as well with its ability to accrue boosts and then just break everything. Maybe a set like:
    Show Hide
    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 236 HP or Def / 176 SpA / 96 Spe
    Timid / Modest Nature
    -Nasty Plot
    -Giga Drain
    -Hidden Power [Ice]
    -Earth Power
    Speed beats either adamant or jolly swine depending on nature choice, gives some nice bulk to lefties number (guaranteed to survive +2 max attack SE from terra, for example. Alternatively, you could put that in defense for a more specialized wall) then max SpA. NP lets you crush stall, giga for STAB and SE hit vs waters, HP ice gets dragons, flyers, and the like, while EP hits steels, including jirachi, heatran, and scizor, very hard after a NP boost
    Obviously this would be a big change in the team and I'm not sure you'd want to do this anyway since you're retiring the team, just thought I'd mention it since it would help solve a few problems.

    Other than that, I don't have a whole lot to add. Maybe give the double dance set a shot on thundy-t with lefties to offset hail, if you keep it, I could see that working well on this team. And yeah, I definitely support recover on mie--without it, and given hail as well, it's gonna get worn down really quickly. Reflect type doesnt even have much use without recover imo, since unboosted pursuit still does something like 20% from CBtar, meaning you accrue 60% if you switch out the following turn, and non-choiced tar is even more dangerous since they can EQ/spower the following turn. I've actually used mono-attacker mie to get both of them on one set so you could try that out (I'd suggest keeping psyshock in that case), but if not I'd just go with recover > reflect type.

    Overall, really creative team and congrats on the peak!
  7. George Eliot

    George Eliot

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    104
    @Jimbon - Thanks for the great rate! Celebi is definitely problematic on paper, Jirachi's U-turn does handle it pretty well alongside Zoroark but if it spams Thunder Wave it's a nuisance. Against better players I often just find a way to bring Thundurus in safely and pretend to be Zoroark, but yeah obviously not foolproof. I'm not sure about Blizzard > EQ on Abomasnow, especially since I'd need to be pretty sure first that Celebi didn't have HP Fire, but I'll give it a go (it lets me OHKO SubToxic Gliscor too before it starts dicking around which is nice). Last thing, I think you're definitely right about Recover > Reflect Type on Starmie, it gives me a much easier time with rainstall.

    @Kidogo - I think you're overestimating SubSalac Terrakion a bit, because it can't get past Jirachi without dropping below 25% and then being taken out by Hail + Ice Shard, but you're right that it's painful to face sometimes. I don't think I can use Celebi > Abomasnow to be honest, even though it would help a LOT with Terra, because Sun in particular would just eat me alive. Definitely something to keep in mind if I start tinkering with the other team members though.

    Oh yeah and mono attacker Mie (Psyshock, Recover, Rapid Spin, Reflect Type) sounds really cool, I'd considered it in passing a couple of times but I thought it'd make me too Heatran weak. If I use Landorus > Thundurus and keep EQ on Abomasnow though, Tran shouldn't be an issue (especially since opponents would take forever to catch on that Starmie didn't have a water stab). I'll test it a bit first but it sounds perfect :) Thanks!
  8. George Eliot

    George Eliot

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    104
    First and only bump. I've been using the team with Recover + Reflect Type Starmie and Agility Landorus-I > Thundurus, and I feel like it's an objectively better team, but I'm losing more on the ladder because of the slight weakness to Rain. If anyone could see a way to patch that over it'd be great. All I can think of is Ferro > Jirachi and Lando-T > Lando-I/Thundurus, but that really doesn't help the team's overall synergy and direction at all and still leaves me absurdly Dragon weak.
  9. Conduit

    Conduit

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2012
    Messages:
    44
    You also use Reflect Type Starmie? I finally found someone! Great team man, luvdiskd ^^.

    As for you problem with Rain, I would go with a Bulky Abomasnow to be honest. This way the synergy you already have and the coverage you have won't be too harmed.
    Careful Abomasnow
    178 Hp / 20 Atk / 216 SDef / 96 Spd
    -Wood Hammer
    -Leech Seed
    -Substitute
    -Ice Shard

    Under a Sub you can easily set up on Politoed, Tentacruel, Double Dance Thundurus etc.
    It's also an effective measure to whittle the opponent's hp and giving a good backbone to the team.

    Otherwise this team is solid :)
  10. George Eliot

    George Eliot

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    104
    Leech Seed is perfect, I need a way to hit Ferrothorn though, so....

    [​IMG]
    Abomasnow @ Leftovers
    Adamant, 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    -Wood Hammer
    -Ice Shard
    -Focus Punch
    -Leech Seed

    gives me more bulk and survivability and still nails an obvious Ferro switch even in Rain. Focus Punch is cool because it does good damage to virtually anything that likes to switch in on Abomasnow. Will test but again I'm pretty sure this will fit perfectly, I'll probably update the RMT with changes later. Thanks Conduit!
  11. George Eliot

    George Eliot

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    104
    Okay changes are up! Landorus is god (of course), new Abomasnow and Starmie sets also working great. Rain hasn't been as problematic as I feared, Reflect Type Starmie with Recover basically laughs its starfishy ass off at Ferrothorn, which puts much less pressure on Abomasnow to do everything.

    This doubles as my last bump. The team honestly feels really polished and complete (and plays incredibly) so I doubt there are many more improvements to find. Thanks everyone who's rated so far :)
  12. AJR

    AJR

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    Hello George, great team! I remember seeing this team ages ago on PO, it's seriously well built ofc and practically the definition of anti-metagame so kudos. The only potential problem I can see is Volcarona with Giga Drain / Hurricane, which can get past Keldeo and potentially sweep, but you can always play around that by keeping SR up (shouldn't be hard with Keldeo to lure Starmie / Tenta for Zoroark?) so it isn't much of an issue.

    I think that's really all there is to say, amazing team man. Luvdisc'd :)

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