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Team Dual Dragon - UPD Sept/4 - Needs some tweaking
- Thread starter OVERGRO
- Start date
Just a few suggestions that I personally use.
Scizor @ Occa Berry
Trait: Technician
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bug Bite
- Aerial Ace
- Bullet Punch
- Protect
gives Scizor a little more speed without sacrificing too much HP. Also as awesome as Flying Gem Acrobatics is, you lose the Occa Berry covering your weakness and Scizor doesn't receive Technician Bonus on Acrobatics before or after you use Flying Gem. The BP becomes 110 (without item) vs Aerial Ace's 90 (after Tech)
Aerial Ace hits all the time but Acrobatics is stronger, so it is up to you on what you prefer. I would choose Acrobatics personally and with a few more Speed EVs Scizor can tend to get off that Acro without getting hit.
Rotom-W @ Sitrus Berry/Water Gem
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 116 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 132 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Protect
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave/HP Fire
This is the EV spread I personally use, helps outpeed Hitmontops and such. (I think someone may have posted this earlier in the thread sorry bout that) Water Gem Hydro Pump on Rotom-W OHKO's quite a few common pokemon.
Hitmontop @ Fight Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 156 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Wide Guard
The EV spread on this Hitmontop is what I have been using lately and it helps add to Hitmontop's sustainability. Without sacrificing attack power, He loses a little speed but i personally don't see that much of a difference.
If you want to swap out Hitmontop for a different lead you could try out my favorite, Gallade, the only downside is you don't get to use Fake Out.
Gallade @ Psychic Gem
Trait: Steadfast
EVs: 180 HP / 252 Atk / 76 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Drain Punch
- Safeguard
- Psycho Cut
- Protect
In exchange for losing a FO user you would be protected from Spore and Status Effects with Safeguard and be able to OHKO Amoonguss most of the the time with Psycho Cut + Psychic Gem. Drain Punch helps add to his sustainability and keeps him going even longer.
Scizor @ Occa Berry
Trait: Technician
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bug Bite
- Aerial Ace
- Bullet Punch
- Protect
gives Scizor a little more speed without sacrificing too much HP. Also as awesome as Flying Gem Acrobatics is, you lose the Occa Berry covering your weakness and Scizor doesn't receive Technician Bonus on Acrobatics before or after you use Flying Gem. The BP becomes 110 (without item) vs Aerial Ace's 90 (after Tech)
Aerial Ace hits all the time but Acrobatics is stronger, so it is up to you on what you prefer. I would choose Acrobatics personally and with a few more Speed EVs Scizor can tend to get off that Acro without getting hit.
Rotom-W @ Sitrus Berry/Water Gem
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 116 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 132 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Protect
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave/HP Fire
This is the EV spread I personally use, helps outpeed Hitmontops and such. (I think someone may have posted this earlier in the thread sorry bout that) Water Gem Hydro Pump on Rotom-W OHKO's quite a few common pokemon.
Hitmontop @ Fight Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 156 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Wide Guard
The EV spread on this Hitmontop is what I have been using lately and it helps add to Hitmontop's sustainability. Without sacrificing attack power, He loses a little speed but i personally don't see that much of a difference.
If you want to swap out Hitmontop for a different lead you could try out my favorite, Gallade, the only downside is you don't get to use Fake Out.
Gallade @ Psychic Gem
Trait: Steadfast
EVs: 180 HP / 252 Atk / 76 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Drain Punch
- Safeguard
- Psycho Cut
- Protect
In exchange for losing a FO user you would be protected from Spore and Status Effects with Safeguard and be able to OHKO Amoonguss most of the the time with Psycho Cut + Psychic Gem. Drain Punch helps add to his sustainability and keeps him going even longer.
Jaesun, what does that Scizor outspeed?
Also, I should update to say the main threats to this team now I find are:
Abomasnow (especially once Hitmontop is down)
Cresselia + Chandelure combos
I guess I'm bumping this now because the only regional in Toronto is this October, which will use these rules.
I'm disappointed, really that the regionals will not be in Spring, but *sigh* oh well.
Also, I should update to say the main threats to this team now I find are:
Abomasnow (especially once Hitmontop is down)
Cresselia + Chandelure combos
I guess I'm bumping this now because the only regional in Toronto is this October, which will use these rules.
I'm disappointed, really that the regionals will not be in Spring, but *sigh* oh well.
Alright, so coming into the October regionals we have to go with what the Worlds metagame showed us. Scizor wasn't as big a presence, and it didn't perform all that well. Since many people are running a more offensively based Cresselia with HP Fire, or at least something carrying a surprise Fire move, Scizor was largely ineffective. You definitely still need a Steel type though, so I'd recommend Heatran. It also helps you with Chandelure and Voclarona.
I'd recommend a Chople Heatran with Substitute or Protect / Heat Wave / Hidden Power Ice / Earth Power. Heat Wave will hit stuff like Abomasnow and Amoonguss, which can be pesky to your team. Substitute would also help you avoid Spores and other non-priority status that goes around. Hidden Power Ice will hit the genies, Dragons, and other Flying types. Earth Power will help you out with Chandelure and other Fire types and Steels.
For Latios, it's always tough to pick between Psychic vs Psyshock. It really depends on what you think can be a bigger problem to your team. With your Amoonguss deal, I'd probably stick with Psyshock. Also agreeing with the people who have said to add Substitute. Your set should look like Sub / Psyshock / Draco Meteor / Protect.
I'd honestly recommend replacing Rotom-W with something like Thundurus. Rotom-W is fairly predictable and everyone pretty much already knows what's coming when they see it in team preview. At least with Thundurus, people wonder if you're going to be using Swagger, if you're going to be more offensively based, or if you've got some other trick up your sleeve. This set was used by the Japanese National Master's winner, and is pretty effective.
Thundurus (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 4 SAtk / 116 SDef / 4 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Swagger
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
You lose some of the offensive presence that Rotom-W provides, but you can also cripple your opponent much more effectively. Taunt will help you with some Trick Room issues, Swagger will mess with things like Cresselia and Gastrodon, giving you extra opportunity to play around them. Thunder Wave will cripple Pokemon that are normally faster than you, and priority means it's largely unavoidable. I think this guy would compliment your team pretty nicely.
I'm don't really like priority-less Mamoswine, but if you seem to like what Thick Fat allows for you, then keep it. If you're looking to at least try it out, I'd recommend an Ice Gem Ice Shard set with Icicle Spear as well, just to see what the difference might mean. Having that priority can be extremely helpful, especially if someone chooses to double target Mamo.
Now for Dragonite, I tend not to be a huge fan of Multiscale. With Hail and Sand going around, Multiscale breaks very easily. Fake Out also messes with Multiscale as well. I'd recommend switching your ability to Inner Focus, so you can still take down threats even if they try to use Fake Out on you. It'll catch a lot of opponents off-guard.
These are just my thoughts, and your playstyle might be a bit different, but I'd give them some consideration. Good luck!
I'd recommend a Chople Heatran with Substitute or Protect / Heat Wave / Hidden Power Ice / Earth Power. Heat Wave will hit stuff like Abomasnow and Amoonguss, which can be pesky to your team. Substitute would also help you avoid Spores and other non-priority status that goes around. Hidden Power Ice will hit the genies, Dragons, and other Flying types. Earth Power will help you out with Chandelure and other Fire types and Steels.
For Latios, it's always tough to pick between Psychic vs Psyshock. It really depends on what you think can be a bigger problem to your team. With your Amoonguss deal, I'd probably stick with Psyshock. Also agreeing with the people who have said to add Substitute. Your set should look like Sub / Psyshock / Draco Meteor / Protect.
I'd honestly recommend replacing Rotom-W with something like Thundurus. Rotom-W is fairly predictable and everyone pretty much already knows what's coming when they see it in team preview. At least with Thundurus, people wonder if you're going to be using Swagger, if you're going to be more offensively based, or if you've got some other trick up your sleeve. This set was used by the Japanese National Master's winner, and is pretty effective.
Thundurus (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 4 SAtk / 116 SDef / 4 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Swagger
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
You lose some of the offensive presence that Rotom-W provides, but you can also cripple your opponent much more effectively. Taunt will help you with some Trick Room issues, Swagger will mess with things like Cresselia and Gastrodon, giving you extra opportunity to play around them. Thunder Wave will cripple Pokemon that are normally faster than you, and priority means it's largely unavoidable. I think this guy would compliment your team pretty nicely.
I'm don't really like priority-less Mamoswine, but if you seem to like what Thick Fat allows for you, then keep it. If you're looking to at least try it out, I'd recommend an Ice Gem Ice Shard set with Icicle Spear as well, just to see what the difference might mean. Having that priority can be extremely helpful, especially if someone chooses to double target Mamo.
Now for Dragonite, I tend not to be a huge fan of Multiscale. With Hail and Sand going around, Multiscale breaks very easily. Fake Out also messes with Multiscale as well. I'd recommend switching your ability to Inner Focus, so you can still take down threats even if they try to use Fake Out on you. It'll catch a lot of opponents off-guard.
These are just my thoughts, and your playstyle might be a bit different, but I'd give them some consideration. Good luck!
From what I can tell, you had a lucario in here somewhere at one point, since the commentary is a bit fractured from multiple team mate changes. I'm not sure if I can make the best rate out there with your commentary a bit scrambled but I'll give it a whirl.
As much as it pains me to not suggest a Metagross when you have Latios and Rotom-W synergizing so well with it, I can understand your Chandelure, Cresselia, and Volcarona problems, and adding on a Chople Heatran as Solace suggested is a great change. My only deviation from what Solace posted would be to consider running Substitute over Hidden Power Ice since Heatran's unique array of resistances and immunities will be causing a few switches and you have multiple ways to strike the primary x4 weak targets with anyway.
There's actually a lot of cool stuff you can do with Mamoswine since its Dream World ability is now fully released! Instead of what you have now, I would recommend something along the lines of:
Mamoswine @ Ice Gem / Focus Sash
Thick Fat
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Icicle Spear / Icicle Crash
- Protect
With access to his older evolution's attacks, Mamoswine can drop Stone Edge all together and utilize his favorite STAB attacks. Mamoswine does have a reasonable amount of bulk, so you can choose to utilize an Ice Gem instead of a Focus Sash if you find his power lacking. The moveset is fairly self explanitory with the only slash between Icicle Spear and Icicle Crash. Icicle Spear is awesome for slicing through Yache Berries, but if you don't like the inconsistent base power, Icicle Crash is a solid alternative.
On Hitmontop, I'm not really seeing the purpose of Wide Guard; most of your team's members don't mind spread moves much at all. Instead, I would recommend replacing it with Protect for all the wonderful things Protect brings to the table.
Finally, I really don't see what Dragonite's doing for the team. Most everything Dragonite's hitting Mamoswine and Latios are hitting just as hard. What's worse is that all the same things targeting Latios will be able to take out Dragonite with ease! Instead, I would toss him aside and through in this, which can help with many of your problematic match ups.
Tyranitar @ Dark Gem
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpDef
Brave
-Crunch
-Rock Slide
-Low Kick
-Protect
Yes, it's pretty standard compared to Dragonite, but it seems like it'd do this team so many favors. It really does not give a care in the world about Chandelure, Cresselia, Trick Room, or Acrobatics which you've mentioned your team doesn't enjoy facing. It doesn't like taking a Bug Buzz from Volcarona, but it can tank one not boosted by Quiver Dance or a Bug Gem and slap it silly with a Rock Slide. Additionally, it strengthens your team's match up against opposing weather and deals with Trick Room nicely.
The only real problem I see with throwing in Tyranitar over Dragonite is the fact this slot isn't Dragon-typed anymore. But hey, Tyranitar meets all the requirements of a Dragon with such intimidating looks and that same gargantuan move pool!
Hope my advice helped!
As much as it pains me to not suggest a Metagross when you have Latios and Rotom-W synergizing so well with it, I can understand your Chandelure, Cresselia, and Volcarona problems, and adding on a Chople Heatran as Solace suggested is a great change. My only deviation from what Solace posted would be to consider running Substitute over Hidden Power Ice since Heatran's unique array of resistances and immunities will be causing a few switches and you have multiple ways to strike the primary x4 weak targets with anyway.
There's actually a lot of cool stuff you can do with Mamoswine since its Dream World ability is now fully released! Instead of what you have now, I would recommend something along the lines of:
Mamoswine @ Ice Gem / Focus Sash
Thick Fat
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Icicle Spear / Icicle Crash
- Protect
With access to his older evolution's attacks, Mamoswine can drop Stone Edge all together and utilize his favorite STAB attacks. Mamoswine does have a reasonable amount of bulk, so you can choose to utilize an Ice Gem instead of a Focus Sash if you find his power lacking. The moveset is fairly self explanitory with the only slash between Icicle Spear and Icicle Crash. Icicle Spear is awesome for slicing through Yache Berries, but if you don't like the inconsistent base power, Icicle Crash is a solid alternative.
On Hitmontop, I'm not really seeing the purpose of Wide Guard; most of your team's members don't mind spread moves much at all. Instead, I would recommend replacing it with Protect for all the wonderful things Protect brings to the table.
Finally, I really don't see what Dragonite's doing for the team. Most everything Dragonite's hitting Mamoswine and Latios are hitting just as hard. What's worse is that all the same things targeting Latios will be able to take out Dragonite with ease! Instead, I would toss him aside and through in this, which can help with many of your problematic match ups.
Tyranitar @ Dark Gem
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpDef
Brave
-Crunch
-Rock Slide
-Low Kick
-Protect
Yes, it's pretty standard compared to Dragonite, but it seems like it'd do this team so many favors. It really does not give a care in the world about Chandelure, Cresselia, Trick Room, or Acrobatics which you've mentioned your team doesn't enjoy facing. It doesn't like taking a Bug Buzz from Volcarona, but it can tank one not boosted by Quiver Dance or a Bug Gem and slap it silly with a Rock Slide. Additionally, it strengthens your team's match up against opposing weather and deals with Trick Room nicely.
The only real problem I see with throwing in Tyranitar over Dragonite is the fact this slot isn't Dragon-typed anymore. But hey, Tyranitar meets all the requirements of a Dragon with such intimidating looks and that same gargantuan move pool!
Hope my advice helped!
Wow! I am overwhelmed by all the great suggestions, much thanks to Mantyke and Solace!
As much as it pains me to get rid of priority and Cress-killer Scizor and my Multiscale Extremespeeder Dragonite, I've been thinking, and it's worth the tests to see how expendable those two really are. :) [Given they will be taking all my priority with them.]
Let me comment on each individual suggestion:
My initial conern was for synergy. This would add a water weakness, add a fighting weakness and remove my Cresselia killer, making me all the more vulnerable to rain (and at a loss when Cress rears it's ugly duckface). However, the benefits of using this Heatran warrant a test. (These benefits include helping out with Amoonguss, Chandelure, Volcarona, Abomasnow)
The type synergy is less of a problem if I keep Dragonite on the team, but if I take the next suggestion the synergy slightly worries me.
As for Cresselia... I'd just hope for the best, I guess, unless I take this next suggestion...
Tyranitar + Heatran:
If I take both of these, it gives me 3 of each fighting, grass, and water weaknesses. Water and grass have two resists, but fighting has only one in comparison.
With fighting being such a prevalent type... that's a pretty big risk.
Tyranitar + Scizor:
Less of a fighting issue here. But Ttar and Scizor double up on the Cress killing role.
--
Overall Ttar is giving me some extra support against Sun, Hail, Genies, some Trick Room, Chandelure, and some Volcarona, which is pretty good, but could be better if I could find a decent type synergy partner for him to replace Scizor or someone else with.
This is a great suggestion, just maybe not for this team at the moment. Rotom-W, though predictable, is more valuable than this IMO from an offensive and defensive standpoint, and this I know from experience. I would be unwilling to let it go just yet. I'll keep this in the back of my mind though.
Thundurus may be able to replace Drag for synergy, but meh.
#4: Mantyke's info that THICK FAT IS FULLY RELEASED!! WOOOOOOOOOO
SWITCHING THIS GUY TO ICICLE CRASH NOW!
Also, Ice Shard.
As for Ice Shard, I would use it over Stone Edge, but that would make me that much more vulnerable to Volcarona. Maybe if I switch in Heatran or Tyranitar, but if I dont I'll still test it out.
Thanks guys! Now I need you to rate MY suggestions for myself!
As much as it pains me to get rid of priority and Cress-killer Scizor and my Multiscale Extremespeeder Dragonite, I've been thinking, and it's worth the tests to see how expendable those two really are. :) [Given they will be taking all my priority with them.]
Let me comment on each individual suggestion:
Suggestion #1:
Solace
Scizor >>>> Heatran
Solace
Scizor >>>> Heatran
My initial conern was for synergy. This would add a water weakness, add a fighting weakness and remove my Cresselia killer, making me all the more vulnerable to rain (and at a loss when Cress rears it's ugly duckface). However, the benefits of using this Heatran warrant a test. (These benefits include helping out with Amoonguss, Chandelure, Volcarona, Abomasnow)
The type synergy is less of a problem if I keep Dragonite on the team, but if I take the next suggestion the synergy slightly worries me.
As for Cresselia... I'd just hope for the best, I guess, unless I take this next suggestion...
#2:
Mantyke
Dragonite >>>>>> Tyranitar
Mantyke
Dragonite >>>>>> Tyranitar
Tyranitar + Heatran:
If I take both of these, it gives me 3 of each fighting, grass, and water weaknesses. Water and grass have two resists, but fighting has only one in comparison.
With fighting being such a prevalent type... that's a pretty big risk.
Tyranitar + Scizor:
Less of a fighting issue here. But Ttar and Scizor double up on the Cress killing role.
--
Overall Ttar is giving me some extra support against Sun, Hail, Genies, some Trick Room, Chandelure, and some Volcarona, which is pretty good, but could be better if I could find a decent type synergy partner for him to replace Scizor or someone else with.
#3
Solace
Rotom-W >>>>>>>> Thundurus
Solace
Rotom-W >>>>>>>> Thundurus
This is a great suggestion, just maybe not for this team at the moment. Rotom-W, though predictable, is more valuable than this IMO from an offensive and defensive standpoint, and this I know from experience. I would be unwilling to let it go just yet. I'll keep this in the back of my mind though.
Thundurus may be able to replace Drag for synergy, but meh.
#4: Mantyke's info that THICK FAT IS FULLY RELEASED!! WOOOOOOOOOO
SWITCHING THIS GUY TO ICICLE CRASH NOW!
Also, Ice Shard.
As for Ice Shard, I would use it over Stone Edge, but that would make me that much more vulnerable to Volcarona. Maybe if I switch in Heatran or Tyranitar, but if I dont I'll still test it out.
Thanks guys! Now I need you to rate MY suggestions for myself!
My suggestions for myself, please comment on their viability:
Assuming I switch Scizor to Heatran, I needed another way to hit Cresselia and find a good, synergistic pokemon to replace Dragonite. Here is what I came up with:
Golurk
(Set from VGC '11 analysis)
(Can replace Hitmontop with this, and Dragonite with Terrakion? If not just replacing Dragonite with this of course.)
Pros:
> Beats Cress and Psychics with Shadow Punch
> Earthquake
> Rock Slide for genies and Volcarona
> functions in Trick Room
> Maintains Dragonite's fighting resist (makes it an immunity at that) and physical attacking role
Cons:
> Loss of priority
> Severely compounds water weakness whereas Dragonite was resisting
> Slow
> Chandelure KOs before Golurk can attack
Gyarados:
(support set from analysis)
Pros:
> Maintains water resistance
> Intimidate and T-Wave Support for Heatran, Mamo, Rotom-W, etc.
> Still beats Volcarona and Chandelure
> Ground immunity
> Generally good synergy with team
> Could use Swagger?
Cons:
> Loss of priority
> Loss of attacking prowess
> No rock moves for genies and Zapdos, weak to electric at that
Thank you, appreciate the rates!
Assuming I switch Scizor to Heatran, I needed another way to hit Cresselia and find a good, synergistic pokemon to replace Dragonite. Here is what I came up with:
Golurk
(Set from VGC '11 analysis)
(Can replace Hitmontop with this, and Dragonite with Terrakion? If not just replacing Dragonite with this of course.)
Pros:
> Beats Cress and Psychics with Shadow Punch
> Earthquake
> Rock Slide for genies and Volcarona
> functions in Trick Room
> Maintains Dragonite's fighting resist (makes it an immunity at that) and physical attacking role
Cons:
> Loss of priority
> Severely compounds water weakness whereas Dragonite was resisting
> Slow
> Chandelure KOs before Golurk can attack
Gyarados:
(support set from analysis)
Pros:
> Maintains water resistance
> Intimidate and T-Wave Support for Heatran, Mamo, Rotom-W, etc.
> Still beats Volcarona and Chandelure
> Ground immunity
> Generally good synergy with team
> Could use Swagger?
Cons:
> Loss of priority
> Loss of attacking prowess
> No rock moves for genies and Zapdos, weak to electric at that
Thank you, appreciate the rates!