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Team "Ho Ancora La Forza"

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Taxie, May 19, 2010.

  1. Taxie

    Taxie

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2008
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    207
    Pokemons in the team

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The team name

    This is named after the song of Luciano Ligabue written by Francesco Guccini. It means "I still have the force". I named it like this because I just wanted to say that I still have the force to create balanced teams.


    Why did I make this team?

    I applied for being a tutor an Jimbo asked me to take a session with Kevin Garrett. When I was taking my session, Kevin Garrett asked me to teach team building like how a tutor teaches an apprentice. That is how this team came.

    _____________________________________________________________________

    Basically, I only create fully offensive teams but after around 2 years, I'm having my go at a balanced team. It has been extremely successful. I've played around sixty games and lost only eight. This team just tries to complement each others weaknesses and thus, achieves its goal, winning that is.

    _____________________________________________________________________

    I've also observed some weaknesses so far. A thing is that this team lacks a cleric and is also quite prone to Toxic. Only 3 Pokemons get affected due to Toxic but those are crucial, especially Vaporeon and Dusknoir. One person came up with an excellent sunny day team where a Scarf Heatran starts attacking me. I was just crushed in that game since I didn't know what to do. Vaporeon took more than 50%.

    ______________________________________________________________________

    Countering the weaknesses(Types)

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    It is extremely obvious that Infernape is weak to Water and Ground. Now, I included Vaporeon to counter its Water weakness because Vaporeon has a 100% resistance against this type. Now, Vaporeon's grass weakness is resisted by Infernape. Now, the team has a weakness against Electric and Ground attacks. To tackle both of them, a Gliscor got added.

    Now, I needed real strong attackers that could sweep the opponent. So the first to be added in that list was Dragonite. Let's see how its weakness gets tackled.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Dragonite can cover a lot of types and why it gets its edge over Salamence is because it knows the "Art of Survival". Now, Dragonite is weak to Rock, Ice and Dragon. All these three are countered by Jirachi while Jirachi's ground and fire weaknesses can be countered by Dragonite.

    Now, This team is not very comfortable with Fighting moves even though there is Gliscor. So, there, I needed a Ghost. Gengar or Mismagius also do not know the "Art of Survival". I've always failed to use a Rotom and for that reason alone, I'm prejudiced against it and thus, I never use it. So, I chose this - [​IMG]

    Now, Dusknoir's Ghost weakness is not covered by anyone but Jirachi can survive and hit back all the deadly ghosts.

    THE TEAM

    [​IMG]

    Infernape (M) @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 64 Atk/192 Spd/252 SAtk
    Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Fake Out
    - Stealth Rock
    - Fire Blast
    - Close Combat

    This is a very standard moveset which doesn't need much explanation. Fake Out always provides an excellent start since many a times, the 3% that it takes off have proved to be crucial. I've been thinking on whether to have Encore or Close Combat but I felt that Close Combat would be more useful against LeadHeatrans. Infernape is extremely fast and thus is very efficient at laying those rocks.

    ---

    [​IMG]

    Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 188 HP/252 Def/68 Spd
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Surf
    - Hidden Power [Electric]

    Provides an excellent Wish support to the team and can also take on hits from Swampert, Scizor, etc. So, this can is a physical tank in my team. I'd say that this moveset is extremely "conventional" since HP Electric is no longer a surprise but still, this can hold a Gyarados off. If it tries to Bounce, I can protect and stall since Bounce only has 8 PP.

    ---

    [​IMG]

    Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 252 HP/40 Def/216 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Taunt
    - Roost
    - Toxic

    To be honest, this has so far had the least role in the team and doesn't even come out, many a times. However, with its Taunt, it can break stall. For example, a Hippowdon which lays and tries to Roar, this is extremely useful. Then I can switch to a Pokemon like Dragonite which can deal a great deal of damage to it. It also counters Tyranitars without Ice Punch but if it has one, I'm doomed. This is also an excellent Magnezone counter as Magnezones with Magnet Rise is quite rare. Even if it has one, it rarely uses it.

    CHANGE

    STONE EDGE HAS BEEN CHANGED TO TOXIC.

    Stone Edge definitely has not come in very useful and so, it has been changed to Toxic after so many suggestions provided by the members. Now, I'm also easily able to "Toxic stall" the opponent. However, even if I predict a Gengar right now, it can't be attacked now.

    ---

    [​IMG]

    Latias (F) @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Thunderbolt
    - Surf
    - Grass Knot

    I know, that several questions will arise asking "Why aren't you using trick"? Firstly, I'm prejudiced against that move. But, that is not the reason why I'm not using it. Already, there is Jirachi to do that. Grass Knot is present there for a guaranteed Swampert kill since Draco Meteor only does 82.4% - 97.3%. Surf is a move for general coverage. With that move, I need not fear a Tyranitar's pursuit. That is the major demerit of Latias. A Dragonite hardly needs to fear a Tyranitar's pursuit. However, I'd mostly die to a CB TTar's pursuit after Stealth Rock or I may narrowly escape which is of no use if Stealth Rock is present. This is Tyranitar's damage against Dragonite - 70.9% - 83.6%. If Stealth Rock is not present, it definitely survives. Just like the Dragonite set, this also needs a lot of prediction unlike the other case where a Jirachi can randomly use Iron Head. If I make a wrong prediction, the situation becomes very bad.

    Now, that is the reason why this whole position has come under review.

    ---

    [​IMG]

    Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Trick
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Fire Punch
    - Iron Head

    Choice Scarf + Serene Grace = Deadly Combination. I generally do not use Trick and I use it only in late game where I'm unable to kill a wall of my opponent. Zen Headbutt and Iron Head can flinch Pokemons and Serene Grace really helps. They are also STAB moves. Fire Punch is there to kill a Scizor, Magnezone(2HKO), etc. Its main role is to take on the attacks that are actually meant for Dragonite. So far, this has been the most succesful Pokemon in the team.

    ---

    [​IMG]

    Dusknoir (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Focus Punch
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Ice Punch

    I'm disappointed to know that Dusknoir is underused in OU while it is so excellent. Infernape generally attracts a Latias and I switch over to Dusknoir. Its Surf does only around 20 - 26 % and I set up a Substitute and can gradually start owning a Latias. Ice Punch is unexpected and most expect a Sucker Punch which is a highly unreliable move. I've seen many Salamences switch in when I use Substitute. This is another Pokemon which can fight a Breloom extremely well after Vaporeon is put to sleep. Most of the times, I'm behind a substitute and thus I can 2HKO most of the ghost Pokemons with Shadow Sneak. A priority move is always useful. Next to Jirachi, this has been my most successful Pokemon whereas Infernape is an unseen hero.

    ---

    Former Members of the team

    [​IMG]

    Dragonite (M) @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Inner Focus
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Flamethrower
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam

    This is definitely not a conventional set. Choice Specs is added on so that Draco Meteor can do crazy damage. BoltBeam gives excellent coverage and Flamethrower can kill Scizor, Magnezone, Metagross, etcetera. While facing Breloom, I put some Pokemon into sleep(which generally is Vaporeon) and bring in Dragonite. It cannot do anything if it doesn't have Stone Edge and Seed Bomb is the more common set. One problem is that this set needs extreme prediction and I'm quite good at it. But, I pay a huge price if it becomes wrong.

    Why was it removed?

    Latias was always considered as a replacement for this Pokemon since it has more speed, special attack and special defense. Dragonite has only three merits over Latias. Defense, HP and the surprise factor. Flygons bravely switch into my Dragonite thinking that this is a DDNite but instead it is OHKOed by Draco Meteor. Definitely, Dragonite's position in this team was under review. Not because it has failed but because some other Pokemon may have outclassed this in this role. Now that it has been totally outclassed, Latias is the new member.

    So please, rate. Criticism is appreciated while FLAMING is not.
  2. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
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    dragonite is completely outclassed by latias, basically for the reasons you stated. Add to the fact that you don't have spinner and choiced pokemon need to switch around a lot and you enup with a dead lizard faster than you'd think.

    XD e poi avrei tradotto forza nella canzone con "strength". Si direbbe cosí in inglese
    Edit: oh lol sorry i had no idea. Just assumed you were italian, i guess. And I meant that, since YOU don't pack a spinner, SR will stay on the field, hitting Dragonite all the time. I didn't mean your anility to spinblock
  3. Taxie

    Taxie

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    I don't think that I need a spinner. In all my teams, I've never had a spinner. I can block a spinner with Dusknoir and can also hit back the most common spinner, Starmie that is. Definitely, I've got to try Latias. One reason why I don't use it is I feel it is uber. But prejudices won't work in competitive battling. One more thing, I do not know Italian and thus, I do not understand what you're saying. I just listen to the songs of Luciano Ligabue, Eros Walter Luciano Ramazzotti, Lorenzo Jovanotti, etc.
  4. moussrfacekilla

    moussrfacekilla

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    this team is awesome. plain and simple.

    good use of type/resistance building. Decent movesets, and the use of pokemone that arn't 100% expected.

    one criticism: I find that special dragonite, although surprising to your opponent is sadly kind of a waste of its amazing attack stat. I see no reason why he couldnt be physical sweep and use: outrage/dragon claw, fire punch, extremespeed, and superpower
  5. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    this is a fairly well thought out team. Salamence can cause your team a little harm with either the DD set or the Mix mence set. Jirachi can outspeed the Mixmence set (loses to a DD set with a boosting nature), it cannot kill salamence quickly enough. Zen Headbutt is a 2ko on standard Salamence with or without SR while Ice Punch can OHKO. Zen Headbutt just does not get enough coverage as psychic has poor coverage in OU. also being locked into Zen Headbutt can be an issue as then Tyranitar can freely set up Dragon Dance and attempt a sweep. Ice Punch handles Dragons much better than Zen Headbutt. For this reason I suggest Ice Punch over ZenHeadbutt

    Since Ice Punch is now covered by Jirachi I suggest Will-o-wisp or Earthquake in the last slot on Dusknior. Will-o-wisp for the ability to ability to hit threts such as SD lucario, salamence and Metagross or Earthquake to deal with Heatran aulthough Focus Punch can help with this somewhat.

    Lastly I suggest Toxic on Gliscor over Stone Edge since gyarados is handled by Vaporeon and Salamence by Jirachi. Toxic suits its stalling capacities better and can help weaken walls enough for Dragonite/latias (whatever you choose).

    Also as a side note, if you do decide to use Dragonite I really suggest a spinner since the 25% SR weakness will hurt him when he switch's in and out with Specs. With SR gone, Dragonite can switch in again and again on resisted moves with its bulkier stats. Its also worth noting that Salamence does the specs set slightly better with Intimidate and high special attack.

    Anyway thats my 2 cents

    Have a Nice Day!

    EDIT: Bolded my changes so that its easier to read/understand
  6. Squirrel.

    Squirrel.

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    Dont use Icebeam on dragonite way to redundant, use something like HP ground or D pulse, icebeam is not smart espically when you ahve a stabbed draco to use...I would also conisder running Toxic on gliscor to make sure you can beat stall a little easier.
  7. Huntofthelion

    Huntofthelion Live for the nights you can't remember
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    Hi.

    Your team is pretty solid, but I don't really like Dragonite on this team. As you said he's kind of outclassed as a Choice Specs user, so I think you should drop him for a MixMence. MixMence lets you use the set to hit hard and then get out, but you'll be able to switch moves. Switching moves lets you beat stall a lot more reliably, which your team really needs as you struggle with heavy stall as it is.

    Salamence @ Life Orb
    Rash; 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
    Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Brick Break / Roost

    The Classic MixMence set from the analysis, pretty straightforward to use. Draco Meteor is the main attack of this set, as it is in incredibly powerful STAB Dragon attack and very hard to switch in to. Fire Blast lets you hit the only type that resists your STAB, Steel, super-effective. Brick Break lets you hit Blissey and Ttar hard, and roost gives you recovery so you can stick around for a while.

    I'd also recommend changing up your moveset for Jirachi. I'd change Zen Headbutt and Fire Punch for Ice Punch and U-turn. Zen Headbutt isn't a bad move, it's just that it doesn't add much coverage to your team and coverage is really important for a revenge killer. Fire Punch is kind of in the same boat, you don't really need to revenge any of the things it hits. Ice Punch lets you revenge +1 Salamence and Dragonite, both of which could be problematic to your team. U-turn allows you to scout as well as get MixMence in a lot easier. With those changes to Jirachi, you can drop Ice Punch on Dusknoir for Will-o-Wisp, which lets you cripple physical attackers that could otherwise be annoying to your team (No Guard Machamp, Scizor, Lucario, etc.)

    Hope I helped you out, good luck.
  8. Taxie

    Taxie

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    @giganinja

    Thank you, I'd try all these changes and post if it works.

    @Huntofthelion

    Zen Headbutt to Ice Punch is a valid suggestion while the other one is not. This is supposed to be a Scizor counter which can take its priority attack. Salamence or Latias is quite a confusion but first I'd go with the uber. Then, if that fails, I go with the OU.

    Thank you, for all your suggestions.
  9. Taxie

    Taxie

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  10. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    I also agree that Ice Beam is not really worth it on Dragonite as Draco Meteor works much better.
    Did the changes I suggested work or are you having issues with a certain pokemon (just curious)
  11. Taxie

    Taxie

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    I replaced Dragonite with Latias. Gliscor with Toxic works extremely well against physical attackers. However, Jirachi with Ice Punch didn't work because Jirachi couldn't attack Pokemons like Kingdra. For that matter, it couldn't attack any bilky water. This was also like my Machamp revenge killer and without Zen Headbutt, it loses that ability.
  12. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    ah I see. Authough could'nt Specs latias handle Bulky Waters?
    Anyway could Ice Punch work over Trick then, the reason that I am so hung up on Ice Punch on Jirachi as that a D mecne sweeps you with ease and they are not exactually uncommon either. Also you have no priority so even sacing Jirachi to weaken it with ZenHeadbutt and SR will not work (Zen Headbut 2KOs)
    With Ice Punch over Trick you can still ahndle Machamp and hurt Bulky Waters and handle Kingdra slightly. You lose out on crippling a Bulky Wall but if you run Trick on Specs latias then that can still be taken care off.

    Have a Nice Day!
  13. Taxie

    Taxie

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    Latias can't because it is a special attacker. My team became extremely weak to a Resting CM Suicune. It can only do a meagre damage. I got annoyed and removed my Ice Punch after my Jirachi lost the speed tie every time. I do not know whether all my opponents were running a Jollymence. Trick works because I give my choice scarf to Suicune and bring in Vaporeon. Even now, I can never kill a Suicune without a sacrifice or two. I know that Zen Headbutt only 2hkos a Machamp but a Jirachi is my best option.
  14. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    You still have a good chance to 2KO Suicune though.

    Turn 1
    You switch in Latias on SUicune, Suicune CMs.

    Turn 2
    You use thunderbolt and to 60.89% - 71.78% (modest nature), Suicune CM's

    Turn 3
    You KO Suicune with Thunderbolt as after 2 CMs Thunderbolt does 46.04% - 53.96%.

    (please check these calcs though just in case but i am pretty sure I got them right.)

    Even then with Specs Latias you coiuld just trick the damn thing if you wanted too.
    Run a set such as Draco Meteor, Thunderbolt, Surf, Trick

    And like I stated with Jirachi, a set with Zen Headbutt, Iron Head, Ice Punch, Fire Punch can be a best of both worlds set for us lol as then you have a chance to check Salamence and you handle Machamp that way and can still hit Kingdra. Make sure Jirachi is Jolly though as most Salamence are naive and you will need to be Jolly to have a chance at winning the speed tie. (did you change jirachis nature to Jolly?)

    Alternativly if you really want to leave Jirachi alone then a swampert can go in the lead spot as it can beat DD mence 1v1.

    I am sorry that I seem to be hounding you about DD mence but its a potent threat in the metagame and you have no answer to it.

    +1 LO DD mence vs your team (currently with no changes)

    Outrage vs Dusknoir 102.04% - 120.41% from an Outrage. (this is without SR damage)

    Outrage vs Dragonite 212.5% - 250.52% (without SR damage)

    Outrage vs Vaporeon 115.95% - 136.64% (without SR damage)

    Outrage Vs Gliscor 88.14% - 104.52% (KO with SR)

    Outrage vs Jirachi 57.31% - 67.54%

    Earthquake vs Jirachi 191.23% - 225.15%

    See what I mean?

    You cannot lure a outrage as Jirachi still gets OHKOed switching into Outrage.

    You can try to sac something to outrage and bring in Jirachi in which case
    Salamence used Outrage, Jirachi used Zen Headbutt

    Salamence used Outrage, Jirachi fainted.

    If you had Ice Punch you win there but since Zen Headbutt only 2KOs....

    Your best chance is Gliscor which gets KOed by Outrage with SR and has just under a 50% chance to get KO'ed without SR.
    Even if SR is not up then GLiscor needs to nail a stone edge (80% chance to hit) or you can try and stall it out with toxic (85% chance to hit).

    Residula damage will kill of salamence but it still KO's at least half your team before it sucumbs.
    This is exactually why I want Jirachi with Ice Punch as even if you don't want to lose a speed tie, you can sac something to an outrage and then Jirachi can revenge.

    I am sorry that I seem to be really harsh in this rate but DD salamence is much more common than Suicune (especially CroCune) and it sweeps you easily. You could scarf Latias but then you lose out on the speced dragon that the team revolves around. Anyway I am just trying to help, I am trying to meet you halfway on that Jirachi set above but menece is just so dangerous to the team.

    Sorry

    Have a Nice Day though
  15. Taxie

    Taxie

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    Your point regarding Suicune is quite right but every Suicune carries an Ice Beam. You did say something about DD Salamence. Well, It is a threat only if it is in front of my Infernape. For that reason alone, I'm thinking of Encore over Close Combat. Actually, a Salamence waits for a opportunity to switch in. When people randomly say "+1DD Salamence", people tend to forget that they have to use a turn for that and assume that I won't be doing anything in that turn.
    How I can kill a Salamence when It uses Dragon Dance.

    Infernape - Definitely a bait.
    Vaporeon - This is another bait.
    Gliscor - Toxic and reduce its like. Already, there would be Stealth Rock.
    Latias - Obvious, Draco Meteor. Basically, I'm faster than him.
    Jirachi - Stealth Rock + Iron Head takes off around 60 - 75%(Generalised, didn't use any calculator). If one can rely on Hypnosis, I can definitely rely on an Iron Head flinch.
    Dusknoir - Fortunately for me, or unfortunately, for the opponent, they consider this to be their bait and they eventually get caught.

    Vaporeon or Infernape are the only pokemons which can instigate the fire in Salamence's tail but no Salamence user would bravely switch into a Vaporeon for a fact that I may be having Ice Beam.

    Now, for your penultimate sentence, there is nothing to be sorry about. You just said what you had to say and tried to help me. In fact, I'd have to appreciate you for keeping my topic alive.

    Bene Grazie(Thank you)

    Buona giornata
  16. Taxie

    Taxie

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    bump, since I've made changes.

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