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DPP OU Team Ikki Tousen

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Earthworm, Mar 20, 2008.

  1. Earthworm

    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Championis the Smogon Tour Season 6 Champion

    Nov 3, 2007
    If this is tl;dr (too long) then I suggest looking at the Pokemon/their descriptions and the bolded Pokemon in the threat list.

    Team at a Glance:



    Bronzong ([​IMG]) @ Lum Berry
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP/152 Atk/8 Def/98 SDef
    Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Hypnosis
    - Gyro Ball
    - Earthquake

    Bronzong sets up Stealth Rock or Sleeps enemy Sleepers thanks to Lum Berry. It has 1 IV in Speed to attempt to outspeed 0 IV Bronzong leads while not impacting on Gyro Ball at all (or very much). I generally don't use Bronzong too much (as in use him in battle), but he makes a great lead and later he can deal with Mamoswines and sacrifice himself to help beat Garchomps (or even beat SubSD Garchomp).


    Lucario ([​IMG]) (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Inner Focus
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Bullet Punch
    - Crunch
    - Close Combat

    Lucario is my setup Sweeper and priority move user. Bullet Punch means she can switch into Weavile's STABs or be U-Turned to from Celebi and also KO Gengars after a SD. It also breaks Mismagius' substitutes if I get into a tight situation against one and takes out unsuspecting Jolly/Hasty Mamoswines. Max Speed means she can attempt to beat enemy Lucarios should Garchomp be out of action.


    Garchomp ([​IMG]) (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 96 HP/252 Atk/156 Spd/6 SAtk
    Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Toxic

    Garchomp is a revenge killer who generally comes in from Celebi's U-Turns or after something faints. It is Naughty as is needs its Defense stat more than its Special Defense and is designed to outspeed non-scarfed opponents and slower Scarfed opponents. Two of the common Scarfchomp counters are Hippowdon and Gliscor so Toxic allows Garchomp to prevent them from switching safely into one of its Outrages in the future, as they will be unable to get away with Full HP. Fire Blast handles the Pokemon which aren't covered by its STABs or Toxic (Steels) and its STABs wreak general havoc.


    Celebi ([​IMG]) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 118 HP/252 Def/140 Spd
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Leech Seed
    - Recover
    - Grass Knot
    - U-turn

    Celebi is the first third of the Grass + Heatran + Water defensive combination. U-turn allows Celebi to hit switchins and proceed to an appropriate counter (ie. Hit Weavile and go to Lucario, hit Tyranitar and go to Lucario, hit Heatran and go to Milotic, hit Lucario and go to Garchomp). It also means I can take hits and switch rather than letting Garchomp or Lucario sustain a large amount of damage. Grass Knot allows Celebi to 2HKO Tyranitar and the extra defense means Tyranitar shouldn't be able to OHKO Celebi. Leech Seed allows Celebi to beat Waters and beat last pokemon statup + Rest users. Celebi is also a great Gyarados counter.


    Heatran ([​IMG]) (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 116 HP/224 Spd/170 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Heatran is the second third of the Grass + Heatran + Water defensive combination. It is a Rest + Sleep Talker so that it doesn't die too easily. Earth Power allows it to hit other Heatrans and sometimes lower the SpD of some opponents, but I will mostly tend to use Fire Blast to hit stuff hard. The EVs given allow me to outspeed Choice Banded Adamant Heracross which can be a huge problem for this team if I predict incorrectly.


    Milotic ([​IMG]) (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Marvel Scale
    EVs: 252 HP/152 Def/4 Spd/6 SAtk/96 SDef
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Toxic
    - Recover

    Milotic is the final third of the Grass + Heatran + Water defensive combination. She beats other Water types with Toxic and doesn't mind taking status herself thanks to Marvel Scale. Her EVs are designed to outspeed other Milotics and base 80s that use 4 Speed EVs. She is a very reliable counter to fire typed Pokemon and survives more than most people expect her to. Ice Beam allows her to OHKO Dragons while most 2 or 3HKO her with their STABs, although this is not a priority. Her primary function is to poison Water types and force switches (which I can often use to double switch). She readily absorbs Ice typed moves and can outstall a number of Pokemon, especially if they are slower and without Rest or Substitute.



    Threat List
    [​IMG] Garchomp:
    --- Initial Switchin: Bronzong. If Celebi is the one facing Garchomp, U-turn to Garchomp or Bronzong based on what it uses.
    ---SD Garchomp: U-turn to Bronzong to Gyro Ball then possibly switch to Garchomp (into an obvious Fire move).
    ---Choiced Garchomp: Bronzong or Milotic based on what it uses/what I expect it to use.
    ---Sub Garchomp: Priority here is to work out its full moveset, generally Bronzong does the job well.
    ---Chain Chomp: Milotic.

    ---Initial Switchin: Heatran or possibly Bronzong if I expect a Focus Blast. Milotic doesn't take too much damage from Gengar but prefers to face Scarfed Gengars. Off the lead I tend to Gyro Ball to narrow down the items it could have or sometimes Hypnosis predicting a switch.
    ---Life Orb Gengar: Attempt to absorb sleep with Heatran then attempt to get Luke in on a Shadow Ball or Garchomp in on a Thunderbolt. If Sandstorm is going then Garchomp is a pretty good choice if I predict Focus Blast.
    ---Scarf Gengar: Much easier to handle. Heatran is a pretty good switchin as Focus Blast has a very low chance of KOing him (I'm not even sure its possible) and if it for some reason has status inflicting moves Heatran will take them happily.
    ---Subbing Gengar: Definitely a pain. I try to find out the full moveset (the slots are generally Sub/FP/SB/either Tbolt or Hypnosis or Hidden Power ice) then send out Milotic or Heatran, and occasionally Bronzong to help scout.

    ---Initial Switchin: Celebi can Leech Seed it and U-turn to Lucario and use Crunch or Close Combat depending on what I think is going to switch in. Celebi especially likes Thunder Wave while fighting Blissey so it can be the last one to move when it U-Turns. This strategy works for practically all Blisseys since Blissey has such a huge amount of HP.
    ---CMBliss: Leech Seed with Celebi then go to Lucario.

    ---Initial switchin: Celebi. Celebi counters almost all non Life Orb Ice Fang/Bite Gyarados'. If I find that I am fighting that particular wall breaking Gyarados I will attempt to handle it some other way (such as revenge killing with/U-turning to Garchomp or wearing its PP down with switches between Bronzong and Milotic/Celebi).
    ---Bulky Gyarados: Celebi beats this easily especially with Stealth Rock down.
    ---STalk Gyarados: Celebi will beat it with Leech Seed and Grass Knot.
    ---Choiced Gyarados: Celebi and Milotic/Heatran beat these.
    ---Life Orb Sweeper Gyarados: I described what I would do in this situation above.

    ---Initial switchin: Milotic or Bronzong. Since Lucario comes in on either STAB Tyranitar doesn't pose too much of a threat most of the time. Every Pokemon on my team can hit Tyranitar for Super Effective damage.
    ---BOAH: Milotic handles non Thunderbolt versions (and sometimes even them). Celebi can switchin on Focus Punch and U-turn or Grass Knot if a Dark move is absent. Garchomp beats Tbolt/Dark Pulse versions although is forced to take a Focus Punch a lot of the time which isn't too good for me.
    ---DDTar: Bronzong's Gyro Balls tend to do a lot to this, and Garchomp will outspeed most all after 1 DD. Lucario's Bullet Punch hits SE and hard on weakened DDTars.
    ---Choiced Tyranitar: Lucario comes in on both STABs reasonably well and Celebi handles Earthquake. Bronzong can come in on Stone Edge or Earthquake and Heatran can come in on Crunch or Pursuit. Celebi will hopefully not be OHKOed by Crunch (it can survive) and 2HKOs with Grass Knot if I can't work out whether it will Crunch or Pursuit.

    ---Initial Switchin: I tend to switch Garchomp in to be safe and my extra HP EVs are there to deter Life Orb Close Combat + Extremespeed which would otherwise KO Garchomp (it still does most of the time). Celebi can U-turn out to Garchomp if it is switched into by a Lucario. My own Lucario can go for a speed tie KO if Garchomp is injured. Special Lucarios can be a problem but Celebi, Lucario and Garchomp can attempt to stop one based on what it is using.
    ---SDLuke: Garchomp is my main method of stopping SDCario from sweeping. Lucario can get a speed tie with it.
    ---SpecsLuke: The combination of Celebi, Lucario and Garchomp can beat it most of the time.
    ---Agili/MixLuke: Bronzong and Milotic do well against these and Garchomp can force a switch or KO while it is faster.

    ---Initial Switchin: Milotic. Milotic takes on anything which isn't super effective easily and allows me to scout the item easily. I am often quite confident that Heatran will be forced to switch and I can Toxic while it switches hoping to catch a Water type or Water resist.
    ---SpecsTran: Milotic takes on all non HP Electric/HP Grass moves. Obviously if one does use HP Electric or Grass I can switch to Celebi and immediately U-turn back as most of the Celebi switchins don't like Milotic.
    ---Life Orb Heatran: I can switch to Milotic then straight to Bronzong as it will explode most of the time or use a non-Fire move.
    ---ScarfTran/ResTalk Tran: Milotic. Milotic loves taking Will-O-Wisps and Lava Plumes.

    ---Initial Switchin: Celebi. Once I am more confident that it doesn't have Earthquake I can send in Heatran to get rid of it safely, and sometimes this is my initial switchin anyway. While using my own Bronzong I tend to Earthquake randomly in case of Heatran or Magnezone so I should be aware of the same tactic being potentially used against me.
    ---CMZong: Celebi Leech Seeds and scouts the set then I can finish it with either Lucario or Heatran.
    ---Rain Dance Bronzong: I can Leech Seed and/or U-turn to Heatran or Bronzong to take Explosions and Hypnosis.

    ---Initial Switchin: Heatran or Milotic are good choices for scouting it initially, and later I can finish it with Milotic and Garchomp.
    ---SpecsMence: Prediction and Milotic/Heatran deal with it, and Stealth Rock contributes to taking it down.
    ---MixMence: Milotic comes in on anything which isn't Draco Meteor and since many initial moves are Brick Break to remove the threat of Blissey's Ice Beam Milotic is a fairly good choice anyway. Garchomp can come in on non Draco Meteor too and threaten an OHKO with Outrage, but this doesn't tend to be a good early game choice as a number of people are willing to sacrifice their Salamence to trap and kill an Outraging Garchomp.
    ---DDMence: Milotic, Bronzong and Garchomp take this down with some prediction. If for some reason I know it is a Dragon Dancer I can Leech Seed it to help me take it out without actually attacking and possibly finish it off with a Priority Bullet Punch from Lucario later.
    ---CBMence: Heatran and Celebi beat this. Bronzong is a fairly good switchin initially.

    ---Initial Switchin: Leech Seed it with Celebi and work out how much damage its attacks are doing, then send in Bronzong or Heatran (who happens to be faster than all non Agili/ScarfGrosses) to easily KO it while it Meteor Mashes. Milotic resists Meteor Mash and Ice Punch too and isn't instantly OHKOed by Earthquake so can also come in after Celebi scouts it.
    ---CBGross: Bronzong, Heatran and Celebi work together to take it down.
    ---ScarfGross: Bronzong takes this on with ease.
    ---Life Orb Pure Physical Gross: Bronzong and Heatran can take this down together.
    ---AgiliGross: Celebi can seed and stall it until its attack raises, at which point Bronzong can some in to finish it. If I predict Explosion earlier I can go to Bronzong earlier.
    ---MixGross: Heatran can come in on either of its special moves and threaten an OHKO. Garchomp can Earthquake it if it has HP Fire or Celebi can Leech Seed and stall if it has HP Ice.

    ---Initial Switchin: Either Garchomp or Milotic depending on what move I expect it to use. Hidden Power Ice is rarely used initially so Garchomp is a pretty safe choice.
    ---SDNape: Garchomp is the only Pokemon on my team who can handle this unfortunately.
    ---MixNape: Milotic can come in on Flamethrower/Fire Blast and OHKO with Surf while anything Nape throws at it is a 2HKO. Garchomp still tends to be the safer option.
    ---ScarfNape: Milotic handles this with ease.


    [​IMG]Weavile: Bronzong and Lucario take on most varieties.

    [​IMG]Swampert: Celebi can Leech Seed and Grass Knot fearlessly. Milotic can Toxic Stall and Surf.

    [​IMG]Skarmory: Heatran, Garchomp and Lucario all pose a threat. I don't give Skarmory much Spiking time generally, U-turning out of Celebi when I expect it to switchin to build up damage from Stealth Rock and avoid using Bronzong unless I haven't used my Hypnosis 'up' yet.

    [​IMG]Gliscor: Milotic can threaten an OHKO with Ice Beam and Garchomp can Toxic switchins which prevents future safe switchins.

    [​IMG]Starmie: Celebi (wears it out), Milotic (stalls it) and Garchomp (KOs it) can work together to take this down. Can be annoying when accompanied by stall and so I try a similar technique as I do against Skarmory in avoiding giving it a free switchin once it has come in and been damaged.

    [​IMG]Celebi: Celebi, Heatran and Lucario can beat any Celebi version. Mainly Heatran, although Celebi with U-turn + Dugtrio is a very large deterrent from using Heatran as an initial switchin.

    [​IMG]Forretress: Milotic and Heatran beat this easily.

    [​IMG]Cresselia: I can Leech Seed it with Celebi fairly easily then finish it with Heatran and Lucario.

    [​IMG]Togekiss: Milotic can Toxic Stall non Safeguard versions. Garchomp and Lucario can work together to beat non-Reflect versions eventually. Togekiss can be very annoying, if I haven't used my Hypnosis I will probably try this before wasting my physical sweepers' HP. Since Togekiss will try to rest off Scarf Outrages from Garchomp I can also Toxic it which will probably cause the user to attack until it faints if they don't have an Aromatherapy/Heal Bell user.


    [​IMG]Heracross: Thanks to Gliscor's overuse I generally hope not to see this used/used well. :pirate:
    ---Initial Switchin: Depends what it is facing. I will hope the opponent doesn't predict on the first turn so I can scout out what type of Heracross it is firstly then later predict accordingly. In short my counter is 'prediction' which is rather shaky but I don't have room for a Gliscor.
    ---CBCross: Heatran is deliberately EVed to outspeed Adamant versions so I can come in on Megahorn or 'Dark Move' and later revenge kill when it appears I am giving up or playing stupidly. CeleTran + Prediction works. Bronzong's sacrifice for the purpose of scouting and Revenge killing works too.
    ---ScarfCross: Garchomp outspeeds this generally. Bronzong's Gyro Balls hurt and I can still use CeleTran + Prediction. These are shaky methods to handle Heracross with but I don't have much choice unfortunately.
    ---Setup Cross: If it is Jolly I am doomed, particularly if its setup move is Bulk Up. If it is Swords Dance then Garchomp can revenge kill or switchin initially... sometimes.

    [​IMG]Jirachi: Heatran handles all but the incredibly rare CM/Reflect/Hidden Power Ground/Icy Wind Jirachi. Celebi can scout movesets and Bronzong doesn't mind paralysis, easily survives Jirachi's STAB moves, and can hit back with Earthquake.

    [​IMG]Breloom: CeleTran + Prediction. Heatran outspeeds all Brelooms. Garchomp and Lucario (against non Mach Punch versions) can take it down when it doesn't have a Sub up.

    [​IMG]Vaporeon: Milotic Toxics it and then Celebi easily outstalls it.

    [​IMG]Electivire: Celebi doesn't take much from Physical versions and can Leech Seed/Grass Knot it. If it somehow manages to come in on one of my zero Electric moves then it will outspeed Garchomp, meaning I can't safely U-turn out to it once its Motor fires up. Furthermore Bronzong destroys Electivires that don't have a Fire move, and even those that do.

    [​IMG]Hippowdon: Celebi and Milotic can pose an immediate threat and Garchomp badly poisons the switchins.

    [​IMG]Azelf: Heatran takes on most, Garchomp takes on others.

    [​IMG]Snorlax: Celebi can safely Leech Seed most versions without much fear, eliminating its ability to setup unhampered. Lucario OHKOs easily with Close Combat and resists the STAB and the Dark move many seem to have for some reason (to all the people using this version: If you do not have a Gliscor, you are going to have problems with Lucario switchins).

    [​IMG]Mamoswine: Bronzong resists STABs, Stone Edge and the extremely common 'Peck'. Should Bronzong be down Celebi OHKOs with Grass Knot while Mamoswine 2HKOs at best. Heatran outspeeds neutral speed Natured versions. Milotic threatens heavy damage with Surf and resists ice. Lucario has Bullet Punch to take down weakened ones.

    [​IMG]Scizor: Heatran and Garchomp take this down easily, although it might be able to pull off an Agilipass if it is running enough speed.

    [​IMG]Porygon-z: Heatran and Garchomp, possibly Bronzong/Milotic too.

    [​IMG]Magnezone: Celebi can get in a Leech Seed before it Subs then U-turn to Heatran. Otherwise I will try to beat it with Celebi and Heatran anyway. If it comes in on Celebi's U-turn it is handled even more easily with Lucario and Garchomp.

    [​IMG]Yanmega: Heatran attempts to take the sleep. Bronzong and Milotic can beat it after this. Lucario can Bullet Punch very weakened versions (Focus Sashed for example), easily coming in on Bug Buzz with its 4x bug resistance.

    [​IMG]Zapdos: I can outstall this with Celebi + Heatran, and I can Toxic it if I predict it will switch into Milotic. Should it be an agilipasser it will most likely pull it off.

    [​IMG]Suicune: Celebi's Leech Seed practically completely removes its ability to sweep, and Lucario can come in while it Rests to take it down easily. Celebi's Grass Knots still hurt after a CM or two.

    [​IMG]Machamp: Celebi and Milotic will attempt to handle this, but the confusion from Dynamicpunch can be very annoying and if Celebi goes down due to this I could be in trouble. Then again, any team without Slowbro will have this problem.

    [​IMG]Ninjask: I will try to get Lucario in if it SubProtects low for some reason, otherwise I generally just break its Substitutes with Bronzong and Hypnosis when it will probably Baton Pass.

    [​IMG]Gallade: Celebi is a fairly reliable counter, especially when Heatran is there to outspeed it and take Dark/Ice moves.

    [​IMG]Mismagius: This is a threat to my team as its subs aren't easily broken without sacrificing a substantial portion of something's HP. This happens because my defensive trio is special based (I classify Bronzong as 'support' and a 'situational counter'). Lucario can break the subs with Bullet Punch in a sacrificial manner allowing Garchomp to finish it if for some reason Bronzong can't.

    [​IMG]Kingdra: Milotic should beat all versions.

    [​IMG]Abomasnow: Everything can hit it super effective so it isn't much of a problem unless it somehow gets a Substitute up.

    [​IMG]Umbreon: Celebi and Lucario should beat all versions.

    [​IMG]Alakazam: I scout its moveset/item first with Heatran then switch appropriately.

    [​IMG]Charizard: This can actually be a problem if I let it come in on Celebi while Stealth Rock is not up or as a lead. Generally Milotic handles it but once it gets Belly Drum and Salac it is difficult to stop :pirate:

    [​IMG]Aerodactyl: Milotic, Bronzong and Bullet Punch on Lucario once it is weakened.

    [​IMG]Raikou: Bronzong and Heatran break its subs to let Garchomp come in on a Thunderbolt or to force a switch.

  2. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Jan 2, 2007
    No hesitation in 5-starring this. Best RMT I've saw in a while. Full of character and a brilliantly comprehensive threat list to boot. When I first saw Toxic on ScarfChomp I was a bit confused but when I read "Toutaku Chuuei is an extremely skilled and fast Toushi who occasionally uses strange techniques to undermine his opponents" I chuckled.

    The weakness to Heracross and the ominpresent SDLuke is a little unsettling...I was all set to suggest Gliscor over Bronzong till I realised the huge Mamo weak that would open up. If the fighting problem becomes too huge, it might be an option to replace Bronzong with Weezing and move Hypnosis over to Milotic in the place of Toxic. You'd have to put SR elsewhere but it would solve the Hera/Lucario/Machamp problem at least. You'd probably be forced to use HP Ice to replace Bronzong's Garchomp countering duties, Ultimately that would probably do more harm than good as you rely on Bronzong for countering a lot of things and you'd be left without a really capable lead, but it's the only half-arsed reccomendation I can come up with for such a solid team.

    Good job.
  3. junior

    junior jet fuel can't melt steel beams
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion

    Aug 30, 2007

    but fuck that since i love you so much and you 'requested'

    Your team is too perfect. I don't see any glaring weaknesses. Good job.

    EDIT: Heraweak. Put Gliscor in over Bronzong or something.
  4. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Aug 3, 2005
  5. Brawley

    is a Past WCoP Champion

    Jun 3, 2007
    I tried to resist this thread but I couldn't :(.
    Anyways I too suggest a wish vaporeon over milotic, as it can both of your sweepers a second chance, and bronzong loves extra health. Might want to try a bulkier rest talk heatran spread, as I think it helps switching it to the likes of yanmega (whose hp ground you don't survive) and gengar.
  6. Fishin

    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 8, 2005
    On the whole Steadfast vs Inner Focus thing, I'd suggest sticking with Inner Focus. Technically Steadfast would be more useful as a +1 speed boost to a sweeper such as Lucario is a nice boon, but when you look at the pokemon that frequently carry flinching moves...the most common examples I can think of are Yanmega, Togekiss, and Gyarados.

    First, Yanmega. I honestly don't know how popular Tinted Lens Yanmega has become, but against Speed Boost Yanmega variants the speed boost from Steadfast really won't help you as Yanmega is faster, but attacking through flinch is welcome. Togekiss is difficult - Inner Focus is undeniably better against flinchhaxers (speed boosts are useless if you're paralyzed), but against Modest Scarf versions Steadfast would come in handy. Neither are great switch-in choices against each other, though. And Gyarados...it'd have to be faster to flinch you, so unless you plan to switch Lucario in against Gyara it generally won't matter, though Steadfast could potentially be helpful if you do somehow end up in that situation.

    Onto the team itself, I could potentially see Specsmence and especially CBcross (since you only have 1 fighting resist, who gets ripped apart by by Megahorn) giving you problems since you're entirely reliant upon prediction when countering them, but you seem to already be aware of that and I can't really think of any direct change that would fix it without opening up new weaknesses. Great team overall.
  7. DeLorean


    Nov 10, 2007
    Although CB, SD, Sub/Salac, or even Restalk heracross could be a huge pain, I honestly think you can deal with him.

    When he starts firing off close-combats, celebi could probably just absorb one or 2, provided he isn't poisoned and CB'd. I honestly find him to be a bit of a pushover; that defence drop is way too easy to capatalize off and use to revenge kill. Heatran absorbs megahorns like a pro, and can finish off heracross with ease.

    And I like steadfast on lucario. For togekiss, milotic should be taking that paralysis (to activate marvel scale), you should switch to luke to take that air slash (not to sure if kiss would use slash, probably not) and then finish togekiss off with close combat.

    By the way of yanmega, a switch in from lucario could really turn the tables, provided yanmega doesn't sub/protect/sleep against you.

    And I don't think lucario has any real buisness trying to deal with gyarados, and the waterfall flinch ratio isn't enough to worry about.

    Really nice team, earthworm. I'd five-star's it, but I don't have a badge. :D
  8. IggyBot

    IggyBot !battle
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jan 1, 2008
    Funny how you suck up when a good team is posted by someone well known Xaio....

    I agree with Obi when it comes to maxing HP on Milotic. Quick question, since you have even Scarf Infernape listed in your threats list. What about a Specs variation?

    And one more thing I'm wondering. Electivire seems like it could really hurt. Thunderbolt / Flamethrower / HP Ice / Cross Chop (which should be the standard in my opinion). This set, at the very worst, will ensure a 2HKO on everything on your team. Not to mention it can outspeed everything except Garchomp. I highly doubt you're going to get swept by it, just throwing it out there as a threat.
  9. Earthworm

    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Championis the Smogon Tour Season 6 Champion

    Nov 3, 2007
    Steadfast (afaik) requires me to flinch first and Lucario doesn't enjoy taking that damage in the first place.

    It will outspeed Togekiss and I use Milotic primarily to deal with it anyway. Inner Focus means I can take a Fake Out and then hit for the kill rather than taking the flinch, killing/damaging something else (and losing more of my HP) then being Flinched by Fake Out again.

    I don't plan on fighting Yanmega with Lucario (other than finishing one off with Bullet Punch occasionally) so that isn't much of a concern either.

    I agree that SpecialVire should be the standard Electivire due to the Ground typed physical walls completely walling the physical version and due to the fact that most special walls are weak to Fighting or Electric (not Lanturn though!).

    I will max my HP EVs for Milotic, thanks Obi :toast: edit: Tell me if these can be improved, I would prefer that nothing on MixApe's set does more than 53% but I'm not sure it is possible.

    @Tsurukawa: I handle stall teams by putting pressure on Pokemon with Celebi and my sweepers + Heatran, as well as Toxic. I also make sure that if they have an Aromatherapy/Heal Bell user it has trouble getting in (ie. I make sure that Celebi U-turns on the Pokemon which wants to recover or I use moves on Garchomp that prevent a free switchin). If that doesn't work then I can always try to outpredict with Garchomp anyway. Once Gliscor/Hippowdon is poisoned they will have a lot of trouble countering Lucario and Garchomp.

    @Heraweak proclaimers: I may reintroduce Kannei Kouha (Gengar) somewhere/with a different set or attempt to introduce Gliscor and somehow get rid of my Mamoswine weakness (which my whole team 'can' hit super effective although it will be difficult since it outspeeds and 1/2HKOs everything).
  10. DevilinDenial


    Aug 7, 2006
    Though the team is relatively solid, you will have issues lasting through long matches against hard-hitters like Azelf, Tyranitar, the Dragons and of course your team weaknesses. Milotic is a combination of a weak link and a tie-piece, and as much as I dislike restating this, Vaporeon could supply valuable Wish support.

    I understand the second Toxic user in Garchomp but at the same time I'm inclined to say that Draco Meteor does good damage to Gliscor/Hippo because of the damage and the fact that you can't afford Toxicing a Heracross or Machamp.

    I really wish I could add more to the team but simply put your team is so connected you destroy the tandemness if you change something. A Refelct Zapdos, if you can fit it in there, or just Reflect period fills in nice, as can Light Screen. Bronzong can replace Hypnosis for it, if you so desire.
  11. Earthworm

    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Championis the Smogon Tour Season 6 Champion

    Nov 3, 2007
    I don't find Azelf or Tyranitar a problem very often as everything on the team can hit Tyranitar for 30% or more and half can hit for more than half its HP. Heatran is probably Azelf's #1 counter since with Explosion it can actually beat Blissey. I also have Scarfchomp and Lucario to help finish them off.

    Dragons can be a problem but Milotic is fairly reliable with beating MixMence and I don't really want to use two moveslots for my recovery on Vaporeon, but if I don't then it will be much easier to KO than Milotic is.

    I originally had Draco Meteor until someone pointed out it was impossible to 2HKO Hippowdon and Gliscor. I then switched to Surf but it is still fairly easy for them to recover off the damage, while Toxic lasts. If I were to replace it with anything it would probably be Dragon Claw or Stone Edge.

    Hypnosis hasn't been the most useful move lately as Bronzong is rarely given time to use it (except against Pokemon like Gliscor and Hippowdon which I would prefer were badly poisoned), I may consider a screen or Explosion in that spot.

    I raised Sonsaku Hakufu's rating to 1600 today and won VIL's on-the-spot tournament with this team (alone), beating husk and Mystica (not to brag ><) in the final and semi-final respectively.
  12. travisurfer


    Jul 7, 2007
    As much as a screen would help your team, Weavile and Mence tend to be major users of Brick Break. Aside from that, I've found that Hypnosis Bronzong tends to waste his strengths as times especially with only a 70% chance of landing a hit. When it comes to stopping other Chomp's in the Sandstorm, you might as well just call it quits with Hypnosis. On the other hand, I've found that Explosion does wonders with Bronzong. With no reliable recovery move, you might as well make its last move take something out. Just my two cents.
  13. Phoenix_21


    Mar 18, 2007
    This team is ace. I was wondering though, does Tentacruel ever annoy this team when you use it?

    It seems that Leech seed is a very useful part of your countering certain pokemon; once your opponent figures out Celebi lacks Psychic, Liquid Ooze means leech seed hurts your team rather than makes switches easier (and any damage LS does to your own Luc/Bronzong/Chomp is permanent), and even though Grass Knot is STAB'd it only does 17-20% to the standard support set if my calcs are right.

    Toxic spikes will annoy Garchomp no end, Milotic & Chomp obviously can't wear it down with Toxic, Bronzong can't recover HP from any surfs its hit with.
    Heatran gets hurt more by STAB surfs than Tentacruel does by non-Stab Earth Power, and Tenta resists Close Combat and Bullet punch from Lucario.

    You could U-Turn from Celebi to Garchomp as Tenta switches in, but you can't really use a fire move or toxic against Tenta which means you'll probably be locked into EQ/Outrage against a Chomp counter that'll be able to handle either.

    Plus Tenta can spin away SR that helps you counter Sala/Gyara etc.

    Of course, even after having said all that only Garchomp really dislikes Toxic Spikes (and maybe Milotic, for the whole Marvel scale versus long term durability thing).
    And whilst Grass Knot doesn't do much to Tenta, Ice Beam is far from a 2HKO on Celebi, which can also recover. I just thought it'd be interesting to hear if Tentacruel ever poses a slight problem.
  14. Stallion

    Stallion I do it for the CHICKS
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion

    Jun 11, 2006
    Your team is very similar to others that I have seen, with Celebi/Lucario/Garchomp/Heatran being core parts of most teams that I have seen. Mamoswine hurts you like a bitch once Bronzong is down but I suppose that you have Lucario to revenge it. You seem to have most bases covered, so I will come back to this post if I see a problem with the team. It is a bog standard team, but then again it is standard for a reason. Well done :)
  15. animenagai

    is a Past WCoP Champion

    Nov 19, 2007
    mamo doesn't hurt it really. yeah, shocking for me to say, i know. both milotic and bronzong are prime mamo counters. the only problem i can see is garchomp (what team isn't a lil chomp weak). heatran's the other threat, though i guess bronzong does have EQ. still not that safe with the switch i guess.

    it pains me to see you share this team with all of smogon during the WC. o well, i would do the same. now i'll have to deal with this team against noobs on shoddy for 2 weeks. thanks earthworm! so much help. geez. :D

    edit: is ikki tousen good? might just get back into mass dling anime.

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