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BW OU Team: Rain Man

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by undisputed, Sep 5, 2011.

  1. undisputed

    undisputed
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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Introduction:

    One day, I decided I needed a new team. I didn't know what to use, but I knew that I didn't want to use anything popular (like those dumb Garchomp spam sand teams), and every rain offense team basically looked the same, so I didn't want to use that either. With that in mind, I set out to make a team that was both original and successful (I didn't come up with "rain stall"; however, since the time Manaphy got banned, it was not popular at all).

    Anyway, I'm going to give a little background to how the team and idea came to be and give credit where credit is due. My first encounter with Rain Stall was when I played Philip7086 in SPL, and his team was very strong. Suffice to say, I got destroyed, but I tucked the strategy away in the back of my mind in case it might come in handy later on. Eternal created the Rain Stall team Phil used, and thus he deserves a large amount of credit too. A lot of the general Pokemon and ideas from this team can be attributed to him although there are quite a few different moves and playstyle changes. Thanks dude!

    After that, I was experimenting with sets when I first made Thunder / Water Pulse / Substitute / Calm Mind Jirachi. It immediately became apparent to me that the set was both incredibly good and no one expected it. Essentially, after a CM or two, Jirachi was capable of taking out entire teams. I made some decent Rain Offense teams with it, and that's when I played Heist in WishMKR's Smogon rules tournament. Heist brought no other strategy than Rain Stall which was a blast from the past, but this time, I was prepared with my Jirachi set. I came within a move or two of 6-0ing Heist, but to my dismay, he narrowly edged his way past Jirachi and then proceeded to 6-0 me.

    Following this battle, I decided I needed some way to make Jirachi just that much better where it could take out entire teams. Suddenly, it dawned on me that the Rain Stall + Jirachi combo could be incredibly potent. Jirachi fit like a glove covering basically every single weakness that Rain Stall had. And with this, here is the team:


    The Team:

    [​IMG]
    Politoed (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 68 SDef
    Speed IV: 10

    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Perish Song


    Politoed is usually my lead. It's first and foremost job is to maintain the weather advantage for me. I almost always just switch Politoed into Tyranitar / Hippowdon / Ninetales whenever they come out to quickly shut down any opportunities for my opponent to set up weather based sweepers as well as weakening Fire moves aimed at Ferrothorn and Jirachi. Politoed is also often relegated to covering odd weaknesses that come up. For example, I use protect a lot to scout moves and possible tricks. Almost 100% of the time I'll have Politoed take the trick. In other cases I'll use Politoed as a pivot so I don't have to guess what wall I want to send in.

    The moves are fairly obvious and have become pretty standard by now. Scald is obviously the STAB move of choice scoring me some convenient burns from time to time. Protect is used for scouting and recovering health so Politoed can stay healthy and come in on other weather starters all day. Toxic is another obvious one dispatching of common switch ins such as Rotom-w, Celebi, and Tyranitars. Perish Song is used if I accidentally let some last ditch Pokemon set-up or if I need to force something like CM Reuniclus.

    Relaxed nature and a 10 Spe IV means that I under cut all Tyranitar and start the match with Rain every time. This is hugely important and often gives me the upper hand starting every match. The defensive EVs allow me to switch into Tyranitar without fearing much. The Sp Def EVs are pretty random and looked good at the time I made the team, and they often let me live some attack I didn't think I could so I've never felt inclined to change those. Credits to Bloo though, since he was the first one I talked with about dropping Politoed's Speed!

    ---


    [​IMG]

    Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Fang

    This Gliscor is a boss. It's really my only Physical wall, but it does a very good job. I never risk Gliscor since it's very important to walling Physical Attackers. Rain also allows Gliscor to be a make-shift mix Fire-attacking Pokemon wall. Sub and Protect are invaluable allowing me to outstall a lot of threats in a pinch.

    Substitute and Protect are insanely useful on this team. It can easily out-stall large portions of teams in Conjunction with Toxic. It also allows me to just straight up out PP stall some Pokemon when I'm in a pinch. Earthquake and Ice Fang are pretty standard. EQ hits all the steels and is just a good STAB move in general. IF hits things EQ doesn't but most importantly other Gliscor and Dragons / Landorus.

    EVs are nothing special. I think I just stole them from Iconic's RMT back a while ago. Just looking to maximize defensive capabilities.

    ---


    [​IMG]

    Tentacruel (M) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 4 SDef / 44 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Protect
    - Rapid Spin

    Tentacruel is often the first wall I bring out, and it's insanely efficient at doing what it does. It kind of manages to wall everything without a strong STAB Electric or Ground type attack. Usually, Tentacruel is foremost a Spinner and then a Toxic Spiker. By this, I mean my first priority is to keep my side of the field clear of entry hazards as often as possible, and then later use Toxic Spikes if necessary. Reasons Toxic Spikes might be my #1 priority would be: Tyranitar and Celebi. The former is an annoyance, and the latter can sweep me if I don't limit its ability to set up whenever I can.

    Moves are farily obvious. Scald is for burning random stuff, especially Ferrothorn. Scald is also very useful as a secondary check to Physical Attacking threats. Unfortunately, Pokemon like Conkeldurr and Scizor can become annoying, and Scald helps me counter / limit their effectiveness during a match. Protect is like the MVP move, allowing me to regain a ton of health. It isn't uncommon for me to spin and take a lot damage from something like Rotom-w Volt Switching and then easily recover it using Protect and smart double switching. Protect is also useful for scouting Trick users and eases my need to guess right on Pokemon like Rotom-W and Latios.

    EVs just aim to maximize defense since Tentacruel is already very bulky on the Special Defensive side. Props to Steven Snype though who suggested that I run 44 Spe EVs to outpace Gliscor, which has come in handy more times than I can count.

    ---


    [​IMG]

    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Softboiled
    - Seismic Toss
    - Toxic

    Blissey is the Special Wall. Basically owns everything and is very difficult to kill. The main thing to say about Blissey is that it's my main Thundurus answer. Whenever I see an opposing Thundurus, I know I need to keep Blissey at good health to make sure it can't Nasty Plot and sweep me away. Otherwise, I think its obvious that very few Special Attackers can make any sort of dent in Blissey. If there's anything else to say about Blissey, it's that it's my "second lead" meaning that I sometimes lead with it vs. other rain teams to neutralize potentially problematic Pokemon like Thundurus.

    The moves are fairly self explanatory. I absolutely love using Stealth Rock on Blissey because it gets a lot of free turns to make it useful. Softboiled is obviously for recovery. No brainer really since Stealth Rock means I don't have the extra moveslot for Wish. Seismic Toss is my attack of choice and does consistent, reliable damage. Toxic is my most useful move, dispatching of Thundurus and just wearing down other threats like Rotom-W.

    The EVs are obvious. I'm just aiming to maximize overall walling capability.

    ---


    [​IMG]

    Ferrothorn (M) @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Leech Seed
    - Spikes
    - Power Whip
    - Toxic

    Ferrothorn is my backup wall to numerous threats. This means that I usually use Tenta / Bliss / Glis for the majority of metagame walling. It's obviously hard to kill anyway, but I like to save it for very specific jobs. For example, Ferrothorn is almost always around to deal with Latios that I don't want Blissey risking Psyshocks from. Nevertheless, Ferrothorn finds many opportunties to come in and get some free Spikes or be a nuisance with Leech Seed and tons of residual damage. In addition, one major job for Ferrothorn is psuedo-blocking Rapid Spinners with Rocky Helmet. For those of you that don't know what the Rocky Helmet strategy does, it basically means that the opponent is guaranteed to take 25% any time they want to use Rapid Spin. Props go to Phil who I basically stole the idea from.

    Moves are standard. Spikes for Stall's residual damage, Leech Seed to maintain health and more residual damage, Power Whip is just so I have an attacking option. PWhip doesn't see a ton of use though as Ferrothorn often has more important things it can do with the other 3 moves. Toxic is the only out-of-the-ordinary move. It basically just aims to limit set-up chances for opposing Pokemon like Thundurus and Celebi. Often useful for catching stuff like Ninetales, Virizion, and Conkeldurr.

    EVs are just the standard Ferrothorn. I just use 8 Def EVs because then Ferrothorn has a perfect 300 Def stat and that makes me happy.


    ---


    [​IMG]

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Thunder
    - Water Pulse
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind

    OH SHIT ITS THE BOSS. And even that is a huge understatement. Originally when I made the set, it could take out entire teams with no support, and with a 5 Pokemon stall core, Jirachi preys on weakened teams with ease.

    Once I eliminate weather changers and I forsee nothing that poses a legitimate threat to stopping Jirachi, I unleash the boss. Most people don't see Substitute coming, so I almost always lead with that to scout Status and other dumb shit. Jirachi is amazingly bulky and can sub on a plethora of weak threats then proceed to grab some CMs and sweep weakened teams.

    Some basic things to know with Jirachi on this team is that it's my primary Reuniclus counter. If I get into a CM war with that thing, I almost always come out on top (except for this one time I played Locopoke and his reuniclus hit 6 Focus Blasts while paralyzed in a row; it was classic). It's also useful for picking off weakened Gliscors and forcing my opponents to overextend themselves trying to counter it to the point where my defensive Pokemon have easy pickings. Ferrothorn can also be turned into an almost sure-fire win condition.

    Thunder is very strong in Rain and is very useful with its 60% paralysis rate. Water Pulse offers quality coverage in tandem with Thunder and has a pretty cool 40% confusion rate which makes me close to untouchable when my opponent is paralyzed. Also hits enemy Excadrill and Gliscor that try to counter me. Sub and CM are obvious, former for blocking status and the latter for becoming unstoppable.

    EVs maximize Speed because I'm a Speed freak and max almost all my offensive Pokemon. HP is for maximum bulk throughout the offensive Spectrum.

    Conclusion:

    Well there you have it. I basically felt like this team has spread a ton and basically everyone good knows it anyway. I've also seen a ton of people just straight up copy it which was a cool feeling since I've never had that with any other team. Some fun accomplishment mentions include eclipsing 1643 on the ladder, PDC winning the Pokebeach official tournament, and spreading my infamous Jirachi set that everyone and then some likes to use. I've also got accused by people on the ladder of stealing "Rain Man"'s team which was the alt I laddered most under.

    Exportable; make sure to change Politoed to 10 Spe IV (open)
    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Softboiled
    - Seismic Toss
    - Toxic


    Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Fang


    Ferrothorn (M) @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Leech Seed
    - Spikes
    - Power Whip
    - Toxic


    Tentacruel (M) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 4 SDef / 44 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Protect
    - Rapid Spin


    Politoed (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 68 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Perish Song


    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Thunder
    - Water Pulse
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind


    Threatlist:


    [​IMG]Landorus - If you have HP Ice and aren't using Choice Scarf, I'm going to have a difficult time winning. It's pretty obvious why: all my pokemon are at least 2HKOed by one attack or another. For whatever reason, Landorus isn't nearly as common as Excadrill is, so usually I don't see the Land Genie too often.

    [​IMG]Toxicroak - If it has SD and ice punch, it straight up 6-0es me. It's good that most good players don't use this set though.

    [​IMG]Scizor - Swords Dancers with Roost are a major problem, but more often than not, I can effectively counter them with Tentacruel. As long as I get the burn it's no problem, but Scizor can occasionally find some cracks and become a sizable issue.

    [​IMG]Thundurus - Need to keep Blissey healthy. Between Focus Blast's unreliable accuracy and getting a quick Stealth Rock, I can usually neutralize Thundurus. Sub + NP and Lum NP Thunduri can run through me if played right, but thankfully they are rare.

    [​IMG]Ferrothorn - It's not exactly a threat unless it refuses to be burned. I just need to focus on burning its ass right away, but with all the Scalds flying around, it is almost never an issue.

    [​IMG]Gliscor - Taunt SD versions can become troublesome if Politoed is at low health. Usually doesn't crop up too bad though since Politoed, Tentacruel, and Jirachi can all revenge Gliscor with some prior damage in the Rain. This team almost always maintains the weather advantage, so rain boosted Scalds and Water Pulses take out Gliscor with not much more than a minor hiccup.
  2. BTzz

    BTzz spams overhand rights
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    Hey undisputed. Very nice rain stall team, you have a ton of stuff covered and most of the threats you identified can be beat with "smart play". However that Landorus issue is very troubling. To fix this I'd like to suggest using a Bronzong. | Bronzong @ Leftovers | Levitate | Sassy | 252 HP / 84 Atk / 80 Def / 92 SpD | Gyro Ball | HP Ice | Protect | Stealth Rock |. Bronzong checks Landorus/Gliscor with HP Ice and provides you with a strong Dragon resist. The problem with Bronzong is finding a slot for it. Personally, I would try Bronzong over Jirachi, but I know it's the vocal point of the team so i'll leave it up to you if you want to give it a try. The reason I listed Protect over Earthquake is with Gliscor around you won't be needing to check Excadrill with Bronzong. However EQ can be used if you want to hit Toxicroak.

    Should you choose to use Bronzong, you can now replace Stealth Rock on Blissey with Wish. Blissey's Wishes will obviously be big for your team seeing as a lot of your team members are relying on Protect + Lefties for recovery. I would suggest Aromatheropy, but think it might clash with Gliscors Toxic Orb.

    That's all I got lol, it's a great team. Good luck!
  3. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    I just want to say straight up that this is one of the most infuriating teams to play against (dat tentacruel) and that rain stall is dumb and I hate it :(

    Anyway, kudos on making such a strong/unique team. My only suggestion is to use Skarmory over Gliscor to help you cover that Landorus and Toxicroak weakness weakness. It plays a different than Gliscor and it can't sub + protect stall, so this change is irrelevant as of now. (if Landorus and SD Ice Punch Toxicroak were more common things would be different) If you do end up testing Skarm, Ferrothorn can replace Spikes with ton of useful moves like Protect
  4. ZeoAbyss

    ZeoAbyss

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    Nicely built team. That Jirachi fkn amazing. Though i changed water pulse to physhock for stab. but nice team. Can Isuggest having Rotom-w with hp ice to solve the landorus problem.

    Rotom-w @Choice scarf
    Trait: levitate
    EVs Hp 4 / SPd 203/ Spe 252
    Timid Nature ( +SPe - Atk)
    - Hydro pump
    -Willo-wisp
    - Hp Ice
    - Volt Switch
  5. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    This team actually looks pretty weak to stall itself. Firstly, for such a hazard heavy team, you lack a spin blocker. Secondly, you have no way of defeating Stall by yourself. This means an opposing stall team can just go spin away your hazards, set up its own hazards and you'll eventually go into a losing position. Not really sure how to remedy this, since I've been on hiatus from OU since forever.
  6. kmuffinman

    kmuffinman

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    Great team, especially the Jirachi.
    Just one point, you might want to swap Gliscor for Skarmory so that you can phaze. It basically can do the same thing as Gliscor(though its not such a good staller without sub-poison heal)+phazing. The only phazing move you have is Perish Song which isn't too good. Whirlwind can help you rack up much residual damage from spikes+SR+toxic spikes
    And I would have suggested Vaporeon for your special wall instead of Blissey, since Rest+Hydration is very good for stalling, but you need Blissey for Thundurus... sigh
  7. Aeromence

    Aeromence

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    Very nice team. I'm using that jirachi if you dont mind
  8. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

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    Hi undi. Obligatory solid team bro :D and I just wanna say all that protect scouting is so infuriating to play against. As demonstrated by your success and impact on the metagame, this team seems to be in its final stages so I'll offer a couple minor suggestions. That obscure toxicroak weakness may not be worth making a change over, but I think a simple solution would be changing water pulse to psychic on jirachi so you can pivot to it on the ice punch and revenge. It also gives it a decent stab and the 20% SpDef drop chance is always welcome. I don't think coverage will be too compromised, seems like you would mainly lose out on exca which gli beats handily and you can use tentacruel to revenge opposing gliscor still.

    My next suggestion you should probably take with a grain of salt. Kind of ironic, but it seems to me that you are weak to your own jirachi set which is gaining a lot of popularity. This is going to seem crazy but rather than sacking toed to get off a perish song or cm war with your own rachi, you could run CURSE on ferrothorn over toxic. O___o. After a curse, ferro can break 252 HP Jirachi subs with power whip and eventually leech seed it with proper prediction and minimal hax. Curse also helps against DragMag teams so you can beat subcharge zone one on one with the same break sub and seed strategy (cb haxo is pretty threatening without the outrage resist). I think it would still provide some insurance against Celebi, setting up on it under rain with all hat SpDef investment, and the other things you mentioned toxic hits are just as worn down by hazards so... Give it a test I think it will be worth it.

    Everything else I think is pretty much set in stone, so that lando weakness is probably here to stay unless you really want to revise things. You could do something like briz suggested, running zong over ferro but I don't think using an inferior overall wall and losing spikes/psuedospin would be worth it. Gl though.
  9. Delko

    Delko
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    Excellent team Undisputed

    Like other have mentioned, using Psychic or Psyshock on Jirachi can be helpful to deal with certain threats like Toxicroak. Psyshock can also come in handy should you enter a CM war with Latias or Reuniclus. Thunder is the preferred move to replace, I know the 60% chance of Paralysis is pretty nice but since you have Toxic Spikes + 3 pokes with Toxic, this isn't a big loss.
  10. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    This team is pretty decent. The lack of a spin blocker sucks but I have really trouble squashing one in myself on this sort of team.

    Anyway, it just seems to me that you are using a Blissey set that would probably be better used by Chansey. As a general rule, Blissey's leftovers recovery comes in most helpful when using protect, or when in sandstorm (or hail lol). Neither of these are present on your team, and you even have rapid spin to remove hazards, which do annoy Chansey somewhat. The other reason to use Blissey is to make use of its passable special attack stat, which you are not doing either. I really cannot see a more ideal situation in which to use Chansey over Blissey.
  11. BKC

    BKC
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    This is a great team that has had alot of impact on the metagame but there are two threats that you outright lose to: SD HP Ice Landorus and SD Ice Punch Toxicroak. Opposing stall teams are also somewhat of a problem because you rely on hazards as your main source of damage but carry no spin blocker; if they've got Gastrodon / Quagsire, you can't even rely on Jirachi to defeat them.

    Jellicent fixes all of these issues. Landorus can't KO with +2 Earthquake and a rain boosted Scald will easily take it out. Toxicroak's only way of damaging Jelli is with Sucker Punch, and you can easily dodge that by using Will-O-Wisp. Finally, Jelli not only blocks spin [even against Excadrill with a Bold Nature and max hp + max defense], but also breaks stall with Taunt. I think you can afford to drop Gliscor to make room, since its job is to beat physical threats, and Tentacruel + Bold Jellicent cover most of them anyway.

    Just something you might want to try, this team definitely deserves a spot in the archive. gl!
  12. Iconic

    Iconic
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    Ever since Eternal gave me his rain stall team for ST11, I've been trying a bunch of different variations but I've always found, no matter what, rain stall will always have like one or two Pokes that bother it. It essentially just boils down to what you want to be weaker to. I usually run Bronzong over Jirachi because I find Landorus and Gliscor to be impossible to play around without it. Also, I find Calm WishBliss to be superior on Blissey simply because Thundurus is such a pain in the ass, and a Calm nature + Protect will ensure it doesn't 2HKO you with a Lum Berry Focus Blast.

    Definitely an excellent team, and many great players have independently had a lot of success with this playstyle. Congrats dude.

    EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention this but Reuniclus is up there as one of the hardest things for teams like this to face. It shits on rain stall so hard, which is why I like to run max Special Defense Politoed to take a +1 Psychic better and get a Perish Song off.
  13. Blue_Star

    Blue_Star
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    This team is so damn solid. I used that Jirachi set on the WCOP too, and it worked like a charm. Great team dude.

    Well, you told your team is weak to Toxicroak and Landorus right? Skarmory or Slowbro are good counters to both, but I'm not sure where to run them without ruining the team's synergy...
  14. Razza

    Razza

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    nice team

    have you ever thought of running chansey over blissey as politoed means that sansdstorm damage shouldnt be too much of a problem and with eviolite she has far greater walling potenitial, you also look weak to your own cm jirachi set and i think a physically defensive quagsire could help you out as it beats that jirachi set, and stat boosters especially sd toxicroak unless cross chop hits, i beats sd roost scizor who you say can be a problem and also beats sub np thundurus depending on the spread and can act as a last ditch attempt to defeat standard np thundurus, it also handles taunt sd gliscor very easily and makes sure that something like a dragon dancer cant wreck your team if it gets too many boosts.
  15. Porii Sames

    Porii Sames

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    Encore>Perish song on Toed imo.

    VERY good team, nice to see someone else using SubTect Gliscor.
  16. Snunch

    Snunch
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    Good team. I prefer Mew > Gliscor and Skarm > Ferro though to be even more anti-stall without introducing notable weaknesses. Skarm counters Landorus and Toxicroak too! Also water pulse is a weak move (+1 does ~20% max to ttar), flash cannon and psychic are better moves.
  17. undisputed

    undisputed
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    Bronzong is a good suggestion, and in fact, adding Bronzong would make the team basically the same as Eternal's rain stall team. Eternal's team basically takes a more "defensive" approach to stall, as opposed to this team which I play more offensively (trying to setup Jirachi as opposed to just passively dealing damage the whole match). Essentially what Bronzong vs. Jirachi boils down to is covering a small number of different threats, and you kind of have to choose one way or the other.

    Thanks, PK! I've thought about Skarmory a lot for the team, and I've made other rain stall teams with that change in fact. I usually find that Gliscor and Skarmory each have pros and cons, but Gliscor tends to last longer and is more durable. Also the Electric immunity can sometimes come in handy, but overall I just feel like Gliscor handles a wider array of physical threats better by itself than Skarmory can. I'll give it a try though, certainly.

    Hydro Pump is probably fine for Landorus xD. Rotom-w is probably the second best Pokemon for Jirachi's spot so you definitely hit the nail on the head. When I was talking with ENZ0, Rotom-w was actually the number one thing I recommended if he were going to make changes to the team. In the end, like the rates prior to yours, you basically have to pick a pool of threats to beat, and Rotom-w vs. Jirachi might easily come down to preference for a single match. I would certainly use Rotom-w if I had good reason to believe my opponent would use Landorus.

    It may look it, but the team isn't any more stall weak than other good Gen 5 teams. Jirachi can straight up win me most matches vs. Stall, and often times, all I have to focus on doing is weakening a Pokemon or two and keep the field relatively clear of hazards, and Jirachi takes it from there. I've swept top ladder stall teams with Jirachi in the sand, so that should tell you how big an issue Stall is.

    Spinning isn't really an issue either. The ghosts this gen all blow, and Ferrothorn with Rocky Helmet is about as close as you're going to get to an effective Spin Blocker. Maybe you didn't read that though.

    Yeah Skarmory is a decent idea. Like I mentioned earlier, I think Skarm vs. Glis comes down to which is more durable for the match since its my sole physical wall. I'll try it out.

    Yeah, no problem.

    Yeah I like both of those suggestions. Psychic on Jirachi seems pretty good actually. The only hesitation I have with Psychic is problems revenging Stall Gliscor and haxing things with Water Pulse. However, I can certainly see its usefulness on this team, so that's probably tops on my list to try out.

    Yeah, I am super weak to my own Jirachi ironically. It was infuriating when I would occasionally lose a ladder match to someone I gave the team to xD. Curse Ferro is an interesting suggestion, but I'm almost worried about the lack of Leftovers recovery. I personally think Curse Ferro needs consistent recovery to make sure its really hard to kill, so if I try that I think I'd have to get rid of Rocky Helmet. Certainly an interesting suggestion though.

    Interesting suggestion. I like the Psychic/Psyshock idea too, tbh. I don't lose to Latias and Reuniclus as is though, the former being beaten by PP Stalling (boring, ugh) and the latter just runs out of Focus Blast PP or gets Para+Fusion'd to death.

    Like I've mentioned before, Spin Blocking is not really an issue. Ferrothorn hardly gives a shit, and besides, in Gen 5 you can't really block your opponent from Spinning if they want to. Just gotta kill Forry, Exca, or whatever else eventually.

    Chansey and Blissey are almost identical, I don't think it makes a massive difference. I've had the same suggestions from ENZ0 and Heist, and I usually just find I like Blissey more. Leftovers recovery is vastly underrated in my opinion, and Chansey is just so prone to passive damage that it kills me when I lose it to a couple percent points. For example, ENZ0 used Chansey in the finals of Smogon Tour, and it did fantastic, but in the end, Passive damage was putting it in a tough spot (Toxic Spikes). I don't know / think that Blissey would have necessarily done better, but when it comes to passive damage, I think Blissey has the edge over Chansey and that is largely why I use Blissey. Also Thundurus 2HKOes both, so it doesn't make a difference in that regard.

    Thanks BKC ^_^. Jellicent is not a bad idea, but I dont think it fits this team and Jellicent is massively overrated anyway. While I would beat the annoying Landorus (at really good health) and Toxicroak, I feel like I'd miss out quite a bit on other annoying shit like Excadrill, Terrakion, DD Dragons, and Physical variations of Virizion, among others.

    Yeah I totally agree with you. I think every team in Gen 5 has at least a couple weaknesses from the sheer amount of different mons and sets. This playstyle is probably the best and most consistent ladder style imo too.

    Do you mean calm 252 Sp Def Blissey? Also I don't want to change to Brozong because then it'd be Eternal's team haha. I just think Bronzong and Jirachi cover different things, and I'll be open to something somewhere (like Taunt WoW Jelli prior to poisoning or something). Plus Jirachi is just a lot more fun!

    Also, a really cool perk about that Jirachi is that it can turn Reuniclus into an easy win if a CM war happens. Jirachi has ample Subs for Focus Blast, and Reuniclus is bound to get haxed sooner or later!

    Thanks for the rate dude!

    Haha yeah, prior to it spreading a ton, Sub CM Jirachi was probably the best Pokemon in the metagame imo.

    I've already discussed Skarm a little bit, and I'll try that out. Slowbro isn't very good imo, can't even take an X-Scissor from Exca very well, haha.

    Like I said earlier, I think Chansey vs. Blissey comes down to preference a lot, and I frankly have just not been too motivated to change! I've never really found myself saying "Damn I wish I had Chansey" but then again I don't say "Yeah Blissey would've been far superior to Chansey here".

    Quagsire isn't a bad idea at all. In earlier attempts to make a rain stall team, I used Quagsire in Jirachi's spot. I think I just found that it couldn't cover as many threats as I hoped, but my memory is fuzzy since I haven't used it in a while.

    Nah, I think Perish Song has more uses. I hardly ever use either move though. Perish Song mainly just finds its way on the team in case I screw up and let something set up on me, or if I just want to end the match without Toxic Stalling a last Pokemon or whatever. Also a last ditch attempt to beat Reuniclus if it manages to skate by Jirachi.
  18. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    I can't see why the opponent can't say, send in Forretress and set up hazards while you Spike up, then use Rapid Spin after you get a few layers up. It discourages spinning, for sure, but it doesn't stop it at all, and you only need to spin once to get rid of everything. I'd gladly trade 25% of Forretress' health to remove SR, 3 layers of Spikes and 2 layers of Toxic Spikes along with Leech Seed, I only need 4 turns of Leftovers to heal that back, while I just wasted 3-6 of your turns.
  19. undisputed

    undisputed
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    Maybe it's because you haven't played Pokemon in a while, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. First of all, Forretress is going to be coming in on Stealth Rock + a layer of Spikes in all likelihood, so thats 24% right off the bat. Then if were looking at Spinning, were looking at another 24% which comes pretty close to 50% in a game likely scenario. Then we can add Leech Seed which is gonna tack on 12% every turn if Ferrothorn is in, so on the best Pokemon Forretress can come in to spin vs. were looking at about 40-50% damage which, I mean, doesn't really stop Forretress anymore. Plus Ferrothorn can keep setting up Spikes so there will continuously be Spikes on the field.

    Then if Forry comes in on any other Pokemon on the team, it maybe gets one spin before its 1 or 2 hit koed. Politoed is gonna get at least one Scald and a burn is not unlikely at all. Forretress is more than likely going to come in on a Blissey Seismic Toss, and since Blissey is faster, were looking at about 1 Spin for Forretress. Then Tentacruel easily destroys Forretress, while Gliscor and Jirachi can all ko or set up on it after it takes some damage switching in.

    I'm not sure where Forretress is just magically removing everything without taking a lot of damage. Perhaps you could clarify? Realistically the only situation Forretress has ever been a problem is if somebody basically dedicates it to spinning my hazards right as I set them up. Even then, Jirachi gets to set up for free, so unless you're a Sun team with Forretress, I can't say Forretress is beating me.

    If you still don't understand, feel free to watch GS vs. ENZ0 for Smogon Tour and you'll see that Forretress' Spins barely came into play at all before it fainted (im not even sure if it spun?)
  20. Grimm70

    Grimm70

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    Very good team here. ( It is because of this one since the WC that I definitively stoped playing TR team T_T )
  21. Rewer

    Rewer
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    Hi undisputed :)

    Yeah, this is a very solid team indeed. I'm just giving some minor nitpicks here. First, your EV Spreads. Gliscor. I'd change his EVs spread to 244 HP, 88 Def or Atk, 176 Spd. Why? 244 HP it's a magical HP number, allows Gliscor to maximise it's recovery from poison. 176 Spd EVs means Gliscor will outspeed adamant Toxicroak and kill, so SD Croak won't be a problem anymore and you can cut that off the problem list. Jirachi. Use 212 Speed EVs. Outspeeds All 95 Base. You don't need more than that. The remain EVs can be invested on Defense. On Ferro. 252 HP, 48 Def, 208 SDef, Relaxed Nature. Haxorus must been a bitch, right? well this EV Spread allows to take hits from him better. On Blissey, I feel like 4 HP, 252 Def, 252 SDef and a calm nature must been better since special attacks are stronger now and Blissey's HP is already too strong. I'd use 252 HP with Wish, but you're using Softboiled, so yeah.

    Other than that, everything change would change the team's synergy and will open you for alot of pokes. I will only give some ideas but that's not like it will get the team better. Another Jirachi like yours can 6-0 you if he win the CM War with Jirachi. NP Thundurus is a pain in the butt, so is Landorus. SD HP Ice Landorus. While your Jirachi is, indeed, a BEAST, you can use something in that spot to cover against other threats, or just keep as it. Some ideas: Bronzong. It counters Landorus very well, and can keep eqing the Jirachi after if you lose CM War, surviving a Thunder, however it won't help vs Thundurus and then you're open against Reuniclus. Another idea is a defensive Gastordon. Shits off Jirachi, can survive a hit from Landorus if you keep him healthy, and 'checks Thundurus, first off I thought Gastordon we're a counter for NP Thundurus since everybody told me so. Then user Iconic told me on IRC it does not. Tested, and in fact gets 2hkoed by +2 Focus while can't OHKO back. And Gastordon opens you more for CM Reuniclus. Another idea is scarfing your Jirachi giving a moveset of Ice Punch, Iron Head, Fire Punch (lol), Trick. You gain a 'check' for all those threats, you can ice punch off Landorus, flinch Thundurus to death, trick opposing reuni, trick the CM Rachi as long you don't switch on a Substitute. Or use Rotom-W with the same function instead, but Jirachi would keep current synergy. However, all these suggestions you would have to replace your best pokemon, Jirachi, wich in my words, what can I say, fucking awesome.

    Good Job on the team bro, it's very solid.
  22. Porii Sames

    Porii Sames

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    Oh, Gliscor, run enough speed to outspeed Timid Rotom. Stalling out their Hydro Pump is amazingly useful.
  23. Bluewind

    Bluewind My appearance, ability, and awesomeness strike fea
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    Yeah this is a very solid team as said by others; only thing I'd consider is switching Blissey for Chansey, as she can take 2 LO Earthquakes from Landorus with rain up (iirc), which means you should be safe against anything but Swords Dance. You'd also get something more bulky to deal with Thundurus (as you could EV it accordingly) which is always nice. SD Virizion seems to be a gigantic whore still, but I don't think much can be done about it; it's BW so it's basically pick your weakness. Good job.
  24. fatsnorlax

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    Your Gliscor, Landorus, and SD Toxicroak issues can be solved if Gliscor is replaced with the standard Bronzong.
  25. -Tsunami-

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    Bronzong cannot stop SD Toxicroak. SD Toxicroak does a minimum of around 99% damage to zong after a +2 LO Cross Chop. Drain Punch easily 2HKOs and recovers enough HP to where it will seem like EQ did absolutely nothing (Earthquake can't OHKO); add Dry Skin and Bronzong stands no chance. This is why I second BKC's suggestion of putting a Jellicent over Gliscor. I also agree on replacing Blissey with Chansey, especially since you have a rain team and will (hopefully) not have sand up all game to make the lack of Leftovers an issue.

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