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DPP OU Team Rose Tyler - a team at its end

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by vashta, Jun 13, 2009.

  1. vashta

    vashta "It was pretty cool to watch Tim Duncan from afar"
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    402
    Team Rose Tyler


    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Introduction:

    (warning, this whole RMT is one big block of text. apologise)

    The theme of this team is the utilization of Toxic Spikes and the benefits it can bring to any said Pokémon that usually depends on setting up with Substitute, Calm Mind, or Curse. This deadly combination of Toxic Spikes + Substitute / Calm Mind / Curse is, in my opinion, very effective as not only does it cause problems for my opponent's set up, but also weakens my foes, allowing set up to be easier, and too the elimination of threats. As it is one of my favourite Pokémon, I decided to pair Toxic Spikes with the beast that is Calm Mind Jirachi; with its great resistances, Speed, and its resistance to Toxic Spikes itself, it makes the perfect candidate to abuse Toxic Spikes to its fullest. Now, some of you may call this team a bulky offensive team, however, I would like to use another phrase: "pseudo-stall", or "stall-based balanced". I understand that most of you must be thinking "what the fuck is this guy talking about???" well, let me kindly explain. The way I play this team is pretty simple, as I get my Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock up as soon as possible, so the immediate threat of these two entry hazards is wide-known to my opponent, and thus causing them to tread carefully before making a move. This allows me to switch around to my various resistances, increasing the residual of Toxic Spikes, as well as attacking, and forcing switches, increasing the residual of Stealth Rock. With Rotom-W as my spin blocker, my opponent is more often than not forced to take drastic measures to try and remove these entry hazards -- this usually causes them to overpredict my switches, forcing more damage from the residual of both entry hazards. Though Stall teams in general rely on defenses more than resistances half the time, I am not only using the resistances more than defenses, I rely on resistances and, to an extent, moderate speed to get the best of teams in this current climate where bulky offensive teams have apparently started to increase over offensive teams. The team itself outside the concept of Toxic Spikes + Calm Mind Jirachi, specifically, also utilizes the further abuse of Toxic Spikes. As aforementioned: "This deadly combination of Toxic Spikes + Substitute / Calm Mind / Curse is, in my opinion, very effective as not only does it cause problems for my opponent's set up, but also weakens my foes, allowing set up to be easier, and too the elimination of threats." I am abusing all three possible combinations of Toxic Spikes with members of my team uptaking the role of a Attack + Defense booster, SubBooster, and Substitute + Attack / Defense booster - the latter two combined more or less. This means that if ever I lose Jirachi (or any other of the three Pokémon), I do not directly lose all hopes of abusing Toxic Spikes, and thus have my plan foiled because this in itself shows poor team synergy (in reference to the main concept of the team is to abuse Toxic Spikes in the first place), and the fact that Jirachi itself cannot work in all environments, meaning its companions must try their best to make do of these particular environments until Jirachi can enter and set up.

    These three set up required sweepers / stallers all work well with the synergy and cover they each give each other; not only in terms of resistances and immunities, but how each react against each others weaknesses, and allow each other to set up as they each remove one another's counters / threats, etcetera. A good example of this is how Tyranitar without Pursuit may attempt to switch into Rotom-W, and Crunch away, however, I can switch in to Swampert and set up accordingly. This also goes for the fact that I can switch in to Rotom-W or Jirachi if Celebi decides to walk into Swampert - attempting to Grass Knot me. Heatran is a known annoyance to Jirachi, but falls to Swampert who has useful resistances to both its STAB moves, and bulkiness prevents too much damage from being taken from Earth Power, and if it attempts to Explode on the second attempt, Rotom-W can use that as an opportunity to switch in with its immunity to Explosion as a whole. However, with this said, what about the other three Pokémon? Well, they act as brooms -- yes, a funny way to put it, but it brings a picture to mind nontheless -- as they sweep open the playing field by eradicating and weakening threats, setting up the actual entry hazards. They as well show great synergy with resistances, immunities, and covering each other's threatening foes, potentially.

    This team has been working very well as it has helped me crack the leaderboard of the Smogon Server many times, however, threats such as Gyarados and Salamence are becoming ever-more threatening, and I have had to resort to desperate measures to deal with them (lol, look at Metagross). I think this team topped at around only 1610, at number 19 on the leaderboard, after a day or two's worth of battling, then I started to suffer hax. You also may have seen my use a variation of this team for the Smogon Tour, along with beating other decent members of the SU Server. -- it got me past many good players, and into the semi finals of my debut Tour, but someone cheated me out of the finals. People have commented in liking the team also. Anyway, please enjoy this Rate My Team, and actually post constructive criticism, or some sort of comment that isn't "you are overrated, and so is the team" or "Gyara weak. Sort it." those are poor comments that cannot even, and will not even be acknowledged. The team's theme is based on my favourite band, Billy Talent, and some of their songs. Credits to TAY and Schaft for introducing the concept of Toxic Spikes + [set up Pokémon] months ago, and to bulbapedia.org / arkies.com for the images.


    Through the Microscope:


    [​IMG]

    Roserade *** Fallen Leaves
    @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Leaf Storm
    - Sleep Powder
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Hidden Power [Ground]

    Roserade, aside from Swampert, is probably the best lead I have come across in all my time in competitive battling. With its moderate Speed + Focus Sash, it easily allows me to set up the most vital segment of my team: Toxic Spikes. Not only does it allow the set up of Toxic Spikes, it also induces Sleep upon those that may be opposing leads or immune to Toxic Spikes itself. Focus Sash has saved my ass a lot, especially when it comes to needing a last-resort counter to Pokémon that may cause problems. With Natural Cure, I have a pseudo-status absorber if I cannot for whatever reason switch to my Swampert. Since Roserade can generally switch into any status inducer that Swampert cannot, I find this another boost also. Leaf Storm provides me with a valuable STAB move for bulky Water-types such as Suicune and Vaporeon that could otherwise prove annoying if I lack boosts from Rotom-W, or lose Jirachi early somehow or another; therefore, I do not use this Roserade as a suicide lead as such, as it has its great points at mid-game as well. Sleep Powder in conjunction with Roserade's other moves allows me to set up easier, or eliminate foes quicker without the annoyances that could occur without its Sleep inducing qualities; it also aids my other Pokémon with setting up or killing a said threat themselves. Now, some of you might be looking at this particular Roserade, and think "who the fuck does he think he is using Hidden Power Ground???" well, you would be surprised to see the amount of people who think Heatran wall Roserade to death as most appear to carry Leaf Storm + Hidden Power Fire, however, they greatly regret this as Hidden Power Ground easily scores an OHKO on Heatran, and removes LeadHeatran's Shuca Berry. It is also good for hitting Lead Infernape, Metagross, and Heatran all together in one Hidden Power, as Hidden Power Fire fails to hit the former and latter. Besides, Hidden Power Fire only more or less hits opposing Grass-types and Scizor, who are both dealt by other team members with next-to-no problems.

    The EVs are pretty basic for this set... standard also. They allow me to outspeed all neutral base 100s, and achieve a Speed tie with other base +Speed 90 Pokémon such as Jolly Lucario. The Special Attack EVs are also maximized as per standard to hit a clean OHKO on all 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatran that may be foolish enough to switch in. Other than that, there is nothing specific about these given EVs.

    When looking at team support, Roserade is an invaluable member of this team with its unique characteristics as the Pokémon with access to both Toxic Spikes and a Sleep inducing move, Sleep Power; and its usefulness with absorbing opposing Toxic Spiker; however the latter isn't obligatory as only Swampert is affected by Toxic Spikes, and it has access to RestTalk, anyway. This dual statusing ability is great for this team in particular as it is the best method to setting up and potentially winning as soon as possible. As I mentioned, Roserade's moderate Speed, pseudo-dual statusing ability, and access to Leaf Storm as a strong STAB move allows it perform as my perfect lead.

    Roserade is named after the song, by Billy Talent, "Fallen Leaves"; you know; being a Grass-type and all... and I am sure Roserade loses quite a few leaves after using Leaf Storm, and in winter. The song "Fallen Leaves" is an interesting and fun song to listen to as it appears to portray a story about friendship and general hardships in life.
    _ _ _


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    Heatran *** Burn the Evidence
    @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature (+Spe, -SpD)
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Explosion
    - Stealth Rock

    Heatran acts as my check to various threats, and the Pokémon that sets up Stealth Rock for me. This thing is a beast with its massive Special Attack stat, and reasonable Speed. With Choice Scarf, Heatran gives me a fighting chance in revenge killing foes such as weakened Rotom-A, Celebi, and Life Orb Heatran. What makes this Pokémon stand out the most is its myriad of immunities and resistances, and how it works with eliminating certain Pokémon such as Swords Dance Lucario, and my primary Scizor counter. With Choice Scarf, Heatran hits a total Speed stat of 417, outspeeding other common Scarved Pokémon such as Modest Rotom-A, Breloom, and Metagross. Without a check to these Pokémon, and other fast Pokémon such as Jolteon with Hidden Power Grass and Infernape with Grass Knot, for Swampert, I would more often than not have to sacrifice Pokémon unnecessarily (compared to now) just to kills these Pokémon; you may think that this should be a plus, in some respects, but this is not the case; opening up holes is something that should not happen, and cannot happen. I know it is unusual to see Stealth Rock on any Scarved Pokémon as it seems like it completely defeats the purpose of Choice Scarf's main role of allowing Heatran to outspeed certain Pokémon, and attacking them, negating any initial "stupid lock in" scenarios, but for this team, Heatran had to be the Pokémon to carry Stealth Rock, as I couldn't find any other way to fit it in to the team without opening a huge gap in my team; well, at least it appears to be that way to me... Fire Blast is my primary move, as it is Heatran's strongest STAB move giving me an OHKO on certain Pokémon such as Celebi, Metagross, and opposing Jirachi. Unfortunately, due to its unreliable accuracy at times, I am currently contemplating the replacement of Fire Blast for the less powerful, more accurate Flamethrower; the downside to this is that I lose the power necessary to achieve certain OHKOs... any thoughts on this? Earth Power complements Fire Blast by hitting opposing Fire-types / Fire-type resistant Pokémon, Heatran that may be slower, or locked into Fire Blast, and for revenge killing Infernape, Jolteon, and co. Explosion is for end-game for Heatran, when it can do no more, or the obligatory kill on foes such as Salamence that resist both Fire Blast and Earth Power (this is assuming the defeat of Metagross).

    The EVs are, again, quite simple; maximizing Special Attack is an absolute necessity to achieve the aforementioned OHKOs, while maxing outspeed allows me to hit Speed ties with opposing Heatran that may carry Choice Scarf, and outspeeding all positive base 76s with Choice Scarf, and all neutral base 80 Choice Scarfers; it goes without saying that this also goes for Choice Scarfless scenarios; notably from Trickers that may remove Choice Scarf. I chose a Naive nature over Hasty as I primarily wanted to be able to switch into Scizor's Bullet Punches better.

    In conjunction with Swampert, Heatran covers its weaknesses -- most notably Celebi, while Swampert removes the annoyance of Tyranitar for Heatran. Heatran pairs well with Roserade also, as another common switch in to Roserade is Scizor, and with Heatran's outstanding resistance to all of Scizor's STAB moves, he can force the switch, set up, or kill on sight. With threats such as Vaporeon, Swampert, and Suicune removed thanks to Roserade and her STAB Leaf Storm, Heatran has another opening to sweep.

    Heatran is named after the song "Burn the Evidence". The song itself somewhat relates to Heatran's ability to set things alight, leaving no trace; the song talks about a person in a coma, and, as it appears to indicates, wants to 'start a new life'. Unfortunately for opponents, they won't be getting back up from Heatran's STAB Fire Blast.
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    Metagross *** Turn your Back
    @ Shuca Berry
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 240 HP / 80 Atk / 188 SpD
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - Meteor Mash
    - Bullet Punch
    - Earthquake
    - ThunderPunch

    This is probably the most gimmick-looking Metagross you have ever seen, right? Good, it shows some form of originality then. Metagross is basically a 2-in-1 Pokémon; with its highly impressive defensive capabilities, I am not only given a decent check to Gengar and the likes, but to both Gyarados and Salamence (lol). Let me explain how this works. Basically, the given EVs prevent any Timid Gengar's Focus Blast from getting a 2HKO without any prior damge if ever Heatran walks into a overpredicted Focus Blast, and falls. With a combination of Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch, Gengar is easily taken down, and so is Salamence. Salamence's nowadays will most likely Earthquake against Metagross, especially Dragon Dance variants that believe the boost will do a lot more damage than Flamethrower. However, this is where Shuca Berry shows its uses, thanks to Twash's original idea in a RMT he previewed to me but never posted. Shuca Berry prevents any form of knock out, while I can strike it into the stars with Meteor Mash, and clean it up with Bullet Punch. Unforunately, those Fire Blast Salamences do a hell of a lot of damage, leaving Metagross almost unable to do much else after killing Salamence, and as Metagross is a major asset to this team, I absolutely need to prevent that, so I am currently contemplating using Occa Berry for that reason. Shuca Berry + ThunderPunch gives me a clean shot against Gyarados also, who attempt to try and do more damage with Earthquake, but suffer a horrible surprise when Shuca Berry activates and thus I ThunderPunch it; a clean OHKO is scored. Metagross is yet another great Pokémon that boats great resistances, and therefore, allows me to switch it in on Pokémon that could prove troublesome such as Blissey (otherwise I would have to go boom with Heatran, or set up early game with Swampert - neither of which help my initial game plan), and beast them out of play with his already enormous Attack stat. Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch gives Metagross strong STAB attacks and will, most of the time when unresisted, cause frailer foes to fall with only one move made. Earthquake hits those opposing Metagross, but this isn't 100% needed as I have reliable checks in the form of Rotom-W, and potentially, Swampert. ThunderPunch hits Skarmory and Gyarados for super effective; if the former is somehow slower, that is.

    The given EVs have already been briefly explained; the HP + SpD EVs render Gengar incapable of 2HKOing Metagross with Focus Blast, and allows me to take more hits from other Special attackers such as Starmie, Latias, and friends. The Attack EVs enable me to get the OHKO on Gyarados with ThunderPunch, and guarantee a simple 2HKO with Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch, and the certain OHKO on Gengar and friends.

    In terms of initial team support, Metagross serves many needed roles with being my initial answer to Gyarados, Salamence, Gengar, and general Ghost-types / frailer foes. Metagross is a great Pokémon in ensuring the removal of some of the most annoying Pokémon that may come across Jirachi / Rotom-W's paths: i.e Blissey, Latias, Celebi (to an extent). As this team lacks the physical aspect of the metagame, bar Swampert that almost requires set up to beat Blissey 1-on-1, Metagross' addition to the team is much needed.

    Metagross is named after the song "Turn your Back"... well, you can't really turn your back on Metagross as he will hurt you one way or another... so the name kinda has an opposite outcome to the actual Pokémon itself.
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    Rotom-W *** Standing in the Rain
    @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 108 HP / 192 SpA / 210 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Shadow Ball
    - Charge Beam

    Finally, onto one of my first of the three Toxic Spikes set up abusers, and my spin blocker. In my original team I lacked a spin blocker which was a typical school boy error - Zapdos was once in Rotom-W's place. However, Zapdos eventually got replaced after I stumbled across this set in the Peer Edit archieve. The main reason Zapdos was here first was because I needed a strong Pokémon that could outspeed Lucario, and take advantage of the Toxic Spikes through Substitute. However, thanks to this new set I can do that and block any spinning attempts from stall teams. This Rotom-W relies on the ability to switch into something that can do little or no damage, Substitute and either Will-O-Wisp a switch in, or Charge Beam accordingly. So, how does Rotom-W abuse Toxic Spikes? Pretty simple really, as it can easily get a Substitute in and begin to set up more Substitutes if necessary to ware down opponents, or Will-O-Wisp the likes of Lucario and Scizor who may be immune to Toxic Spikes, crippling them and, thanks to Rotom-W's great defenses paired with its great resistances, he can take further crippled hits from these Pokémon and stall them out with Will-O-Wisp damage, or take that as the opportunity to use Charge Beam and hopefully gain boosts and therefore cause a potential sweep with the combination of Shadow Ball + Charge Beam. If Rotom-W can take damage from Pokémon that are hit by Toxic Spikes however without losing its initial Substitute, it will also use that as an advantage to set up accordingly to build up residual damage from the poison. So just another run through of Rotom-W's moveset, Substitute + moderate Speed in conjunction with Toxic Spikes applies the build up of Toxic Spikes and possibly forces switches, allows me to set up and gain boosts from Charge Beam, or build up potential Will-O-Wisp residual. Will-O-Wisp itself is a great move as it allows me to cripple those Steel-types such as Lucario and Agility Metagross who are immune to Toxic Spikes, and thus renders them unable to cause any further nuisance in the future; this helps Rotom-W and his friends to set up easier without having to rely on the negated effects of the residual Toxic Spikes would have given to ware down foes enough to knock them out. Shadow Ball and Charge Beam prove as great STAB moves, and the latter in particular is also another great with Shadow Ball as it boosts Shadow Ball(/Charge Beam)'s power... enough so that I can achieve knock-outs on certain Pokémon such as Metagross, Zapdos, and Scizor with heavy SpD investment. Rotom-W gives me a reliable check to Mamoswine also.. especially Choice Band Mamoswine who could cause problems to the team otherwise. Rotom-W supports the other two setup relying Pokémon by weakening and eliminating a selection of foes; for Swampert, Celebi is an annoyance. With Rotom-W's great resistances, he can easily switch into Grass Knot, Substitute up, and Shadow Ball or Charge Beam (for boosts) accordingly; for Jirachi, Tyranitar is an annoyance. Though Rotom-W does not directly deal with Tyranitar in combat, it does a hell of a great job with crippling it if ever Toxic Spikes is absent (opposing Toxic Spikes absorber).

    The given EVs are specific indeed. The HP EVs allow Rotom-W to hit a total of 268 HP, which is divisible by 4 meaning that there is no HP wasted when making Substitutes. 210 Spe allows Rotom-W to outspeed Adamant Lucario and Jolly Mamoswine so I can hit the former with Will-O-Wisp, and the latter with Shadow Ball. The rest of the EVs are put into Rotom-W's Special Attack so it can hit OHKOs on certain Pokémon with a said amount of Charge Beam boosts accumilated.

    In summary, Rotom-W is a great Pokémon and asset to this team as not only does it fulfil the Substitute aspect of the Toxic Spikes abuse, it provides the team with a Rapid Spin blocker and another crippler for those sweepers that may be immune to Toxic Spikes. With its bulk I am able to switch into several threats and annoyances easier; I also have another Pokémon immune to Ground-type attacks; a dominant type that can do huge damage to alot of the members of the team.

    Rotom-W is named after the song "Standing in the Rain"... as the concept behind the Pokémon itself is related to the use of water, it is easy to see it standing in the rain, Charge Beaming foes like no tommorow. The song itself is quite an entertaining song as apparant through the lyrics and the instrumental content.
    _ _ _


    [​IMG]

    Swampert *** River Below
    @ Leftovers
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD
    Careful Nature (+SpD, -SpA)
    - Waterfall
    - Curse
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    The second of the "ToxicTrio", Swampert. Swampert really ties up some -otherwise- irratating loose ends in terms of threats, resistances, and type-attacking power; it is also a useful RestTalker -- status such as sleep is a bitch, and thus a status absorber was an absolute necessity. CroPert is basically a better, yes, I did say better, CroCune; the jobs it does for my team are quite remarkable, and without it, I would have lost over 60% of my games, for sure. Two Pokémon that are removed by Swampert, and are dangers to my team, are Tyranitar and Heatran. Both of these threats can sweep my team without any hesitation; Swampert's useful resistances to Heatran's STAB attacks prevent it from outspeeding all of my team annihilating me in the process (assuming my own Heatran has already been taken out), and resistance to Tyranitar's strongest STAB move, Stone Edge. How does Swampert abuse Toxic Spikes, then? Well, as it sets up Curse, ready to sweep the opponent, it also has access to the combination of RestTalking its way out of tight situations (i.e. recovering and waring down Draco Meteor's power from foes), and generally recovering from any other problems that may arise. Curse is a great move for boosting Swampert's Defense stat, and Attack stat + using Toxic Spikes as it continues to render physical attackers unable to do heavy damage, cause a decrease in damage, enough so it can guarantee a sweep. Curse + Waterfall is a combination: as Swampert's best STAB move (IMO) as is not rendered immune to by a certain type of Pokémon (such as Earthquake to Flying-types); Pokémon that are resistant still take heavy damage after a couple of Curses. The only Pokémon "immune" to Waterfall, Water Absorbers, all more or less fall to Toxic Spikes while Swampert stalls it out silly.

    Swampert, as aforementioned, brings alot of things to the table and is a true asset to my team. Jirachi and Rotom-W both more or less fall to the might of Heatran's STAB Fire Blast; Swampert does not tolerate this common weakness, resists it, and destroys most variants completely. Tyranitar isn't hit too hard by Jirachi, and eats Rotom-W alive if Will-O-Wisp misses the awaited Pursuit -- due to Swampert's bulk, it can take these hits from Tyranitar, and hit it back almost ten times harder with its STAB Waterfall. Jolteon is another Pokémon that can cause hassle if I do not play my cards right, especially with its Life Orbed Thunderbolt 2HKOing Heatran; Swampert's immunity to Jolteon's STAB Electric-type attacks allow it to take down or even set up on Jolteon depending on the type of Hidden Power it carries in particular. Zapdos is another Pokémon in this situation, even worse if Heatran is weakened. With these and other non-mentioned Pokémon removed, Swampert makes a great team player thanks to its resistances, immunities, and defenses; not only with the "sub-team", but the setup squad, in particular.

    The EVs are quite generic it seems; the HP and SpD EVs provide bulk and render a lot of Special moves such as Shadow Ball, Earth Power, etcetera from doing so much damage; the plus to this EV spread is the fact that the standard Life Orb Infernape's Grass Knot cannot score an OHKO on Swampert, allowing me to hit it back with Waterfall if it comes down to a 1-on-1 showdown - assuming max health.

    Swampert is named after the song "River Below". Why? Because a lot of people reject Swampert and its offensive values and opt to uptake its solely defensive purposes. The song River Below, in my opinion, personifies rejection as a person, not just an opinionized status. Also, there usually is a River running below a Waterfall.
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    Jirachi *** Midnight Mass
    @ Leftovers
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 76 SpA / 180 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Flash Cannon
    - Calm Mind
    - Thunderbolt
    - Substitute

    Jirachi... the highlight... the star of this team, pun intended. When all threats are eliminated, Jirachi can switch in, set up a Substitute, and sweep. With Jirachi's moderate Speed, great HP, resistances, and other defensive properties, including a moderate Special Attack stat, Jirachi makes a perfect Pokémon to utilize Substitute + [stat-upper] + Toxic Spikes, even better than the commonly used Kingdra who is, on the other hand, affected and affected badly by Toxic Spikes as it limits the timescale for it to eventually sweep in. How does Jirachi abuse Toxic Spikes? The same concept as the rest of the ToxicAbusers, really. Substitute + Setup weakens foes, in particular special attackers and their attacks, and wares them down health-wise, also, before I find it fit to eventually attack back. These special attackers would normally go and attack Swampert who isn't receiving any Special Defensive boosts, however, there comes in Jirachi to deal otherwise. The bane of Swampert's existence, Celebi, is rendered useless after Jirachi switches into its Grass Knot, Substitutes, and Calm Minds accordingly. Flash Cannonis a useful STAB move, and is great for 1-on-1s against other Pokémon that may have a high Special Defense stat such as Blissey, and, with a bit of Serene-Luck, I can score a Special Defense drop and cause even more havok; 1-on-1s with Latias are also made redundant through this useful factor. Thunderbolt is for those Electric-type Pokémon and for Pokémon that aren't hit / hit hard by Jirachi's Psychic. Again, with Serene Grace, I may get lucky and get a few paralyses on Pokémon unaffected by Toxic Spikes, such as Choice Scarf Heatran switch-ins, etcetera. Calm Mind is the reason this set is so great, in conjunction with Substitute; the two together render most moves weak and unable to hit Jirachi while it is protected by Substitute's status-blocking ability. Super effective special attacks are sometimes also rendered useless after one or two Calm Minds. This stat-up move with Substitute almost guarantees me a clean setup without any status problems. Out of the two stat-up Toxic Spike abusers, this is also the special-hitting Pokémon of the attacking spectrum, this gives me a solid way to hit both sides of attacking spectrum without focusing on one side which could unfortunately have me walled by Pokémon X without a way to get around it (assuming set up is required to do so, of course). Poison-types, and Hail teams are rendered useless more or less to Jirachi as it is immune to a major factor in these two said situational encounters; the former is destroyed by Jirachi's STAB Psychic, meaning Pokémon such as Gengar, Roserade, and Tentacruel won't be alive for too long, and the latter is usually seen as a special-based move; Calm Mind + Jirachi's resistance to Ice-type attacks, the dominant type of attack on Hail teams, will soon have users leaving matches before they know they cannot hit Jirachi.

    The EVs given to Jirachi are just a small change to the standard 252 HP / 80 SpA / 176 Spe Jirachi. Reason for this is quite obvious to be honest. I want to outspeed most variants of Gliscor who usually run 308 Speed, and other Jirachi that run a similar sort of Speed. The total Speed stat hits 309 Speed, which is good enough for me; outspeeding some standard MixMences, also. I am thinking of just maximizing Speed and HP, with only 4 left in SpA, any comments on this possible change -- I am merely contemplating this to prevent speed ties against Salamence that run 232 Spe, as I have been seeing a lot of them lately. Thanks to Tab for inventing this set.

    Jirachi is named after the song "[Devil in a] midnight mass" because the song is awesome; otherwise, I honestly do not know why I named it that why... but that is just my personal preference, haha.
    _ _ _
  2. vashta

    vashta "It was pretty cool to watch Tim Duncan from afar"
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    402
    Threat List:

    Defensive Threats

    [​IMG] Blissey: Swampert can switch into any variant of Blissey, and use that as an opportunity to setup and sweep. Rotom-W can Substitute on it and use it as set up fodder (though it will fail to 2HKO at +6), though, by then Toxic Spikes would have took its toll. Metagross is also another Pokémon that can switch into most variants and 2HKO it with Meteor Mash.

    [​IMG] Bronzong: Heatran can switch in and Fire Blast its ass, thought it will only 2HKO, and I have to be careful of Earthquake. :x Rotom-W can Will-O-Wisp and Substitute, then set up accordingly with a combination of Charge Beam + a hopefully boosted Shadow Ball.

    [​IMG] Celebi: If I don't switch into Thunder Wave, Heatran, Jirachi, and Rotom-W can switch in and hit it hard, or, in the case of Jirachi, set up, and Flash Cannon away like mad, hoping for a drop in its Special Defense.

    [​IMG] Cresselia: Swampert, Rotom-W, or Jirachi will have to set up to do some considerable damage to Cresselia due to its fantastic bulk.

    [​IMG] Donphan: Rotom-W can Will-O-Wisp it, thus weaken it for Swampert to set up on and hit it with a super effective Waterfall.

    [​IMG]Dusknoir: Ugh, Physical variants require Swampert's assistance. Special variants are taken down by Heatran or Jirachi, otherwise.

    [​IMG] Forretress: Heatran can hit it hard with its STAB Fire Blast, or Rotom-W can Will-O-Wisp, Substitute, and Charge Beam for boosts in Special Attack, as well as being resistant to its STAB moves and prevents its Rapid Spin from taking effect.

    [​IMG] Gliscor: A Will-O-Wisp from Rotom-W, or a boosted Waterfall from Swampert. Heatran's Fire Blast can take its toll on weakened Gliscors if needbe. Roserade's STAB Leaf Storm is beastly on this thing. @_@

    [​IMG] Gyarados: Without any boosts, Rotom-W can take it, however, Metagross, though it is a risky job, will have to come in if it acquires a boost and hit it for a super effective ThunderPunch.

    [​IMG] Hippowdon: Roserade puts leads to Sleep and 2HKOes them with Leaf Storm. Rotom-W hits it with Will-O-Wisp, and can just fire off Shadow Balls like there was no tommorow. Swampert's STAB Waterfall, especially when boosted, will certainly take a chunk out of Hippowdon's HP.

    [​IMG] Jirachi: Heatran deals with most variants with its strong Fire Blast. Physical variants fall silly to Swampert's bulk, the same is for Rotom-W who can also burn it!

    [​IMG] Rotom-A: If mine can outspeed, great! Heatran can switch into possible Will-O-Wisps aimed at Metagross. Swampert has a field day with Rotom-A as it cannot harm it with any status move, thanks to Swampert's access to RestTalk.

    [​IMG] Skarmory: Heatran, or Rotom-W hit it with super effective, STAB attacks. Jirachi only 2HKOes on most occasions. ?_?

    [​IMG] Snorlax: Metagross or Swampert can hit it hard with STAB physical attacks, however, Curse variants are a bitch to deal with at times.

    [​IMG]Suicune: Roserade's STAB Leaf Storm can beast this thing, even after a Calm Mind it will KO after Stealth Rock residual. Otherwise, Jirachi vs Suicune, or Rotom-W vs Suicune - the latter is very unlikely, though.

    [​IMG] Swampert: Roserade. Physical variants are taken by Rotom-W or Swampert can potentially set up.

    [​IMG] Tentacruel: Jirachi / Rotom-W / Roserade can deal with this.

    [​IMG] Tyranitar: Roserade's Leaf Storm can hit it HARD. Swampert is an absolute beast and takes most attacks reasonably well as Swampert Curses and retaliates with a STAB Waterfall.

    [​IMG] Vaporeon: Roserade's Leaf Storm, or Jirachi can set up and use Thunderbolt.

    [​IMG] Zapdos: Swampert counters Zapdos without Hidden Power Grass. Rotom-W can somewhat deal with it.


    Offensive Threats:

    [​IMG] Azelf - Leads require Roserade's Leaf Storm + Metagross' Bullet Punch, or Heatran to outspeed and KO.

    [​IMG] Breloom - Heatran can switch into a possible Seed Bomb directed at Swampert. Jirachi outspeeds and hits it for super effective with Psychic. Without Seed Bomb, Rotom-W completely walls and can setup with ease.

    [​IMG] Dragonite - Rotom-W can burn it and stall it.

    [​IMG] Dugtrio - Swampert's STAB Waterfall.

    [​IMG] Electivire - Swampert.

    [​IMG] Gallade - Swampert (unreliably), Rotom-W (on non-Shadow Sneak variants).

    [​IMG] Gengar - Heatran can revenge kill, while Metagross remains its prime counter and hits it hard for a knock-out with Meteor Mash.

    [​IMG]Gyarados - An absolute threat if Metagross has somehow lost its Shuca Berry. Rotom-W and Jirachi can take non-boosted hits.

    [​IMG] Heatran - Swampert is resistant to both its STAB moves. My own Heatran can switch into anything but Earth Power and OHKO accordingly with my own.

    [​IMG] Heracross - Heatran outspeeds all but Jolly Choice Scarfed Heracross. Rotom-W can somewhat deal with it also. Jirachi's Psychic will do a hell of a lot if it can score a hit against non-Scarfed variants.

    [​IMG] Infernape - this requires Heatran to revenge kill with Earth Power. without it, I am more or less a dead man.

    [​IMG] Jolteon - Swampert can hit hard, however, variants with Hidden Power Grass have to be taken by either Roserade or Heatran, the latter to revenge kill..

    [​IMG] Kingdra - Physical variants are hit hard by Will-O-Wisp. Metagross is bulky enough to 2HKO it without being 2HKOed itself, I believe.

    [​IMG] Lucario - Rotom-W will Will-O-Wisp, while I can hit it back with something such as Heatran.

    [​IMG] Machamp - Rotom-W assuming no Payback; otherwise, it requires Toxic Spike ware down, and then a super effective hit from Jirachi's STAB Psychic.

    [​IMG] Magnezone - Swampert.

    [​IMG] Mamoswine - Swampert or Rotom-W can force switches.

    [​IMG] Metagross - Rotom-W + Will-O-Wisp, or Swampert on Explosion-less Metagross.

    [​IMG] Porygon-Z Rotom-W or I revenge kill with Heatran.

    [​IMG] Salamence - an absolute threat. I need Metagross to be on full health to take it down with a combo of Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch, or Heatran can revenge kill non-Dragon Dance variants with Explosion.

    [​IMG] Scizor - Heatran's STAB Fire Blast.

    [​IMG] Starmie - Life Orb variants are trouble indeed. Usually requires a sacrifice.

    [​IMG]Suicune - Roserade's Leaf Storm, Jirachi can outstall with Thunderbolt.

    [​IMG]Togekiss - Jirachi can set up on Air Slash, etcetera. Same with Rotom-W. I have to beware of Thunder Wave, though.

    [​IMG] Tyranitar - Swampert hits this thing hard with its STAB Waterfall, without taking much in return, I can also possibly set up on it. Roserade's Leaf Storm can revenge kill at less than 50% I think.

    [​IMG] Weavile - The beast Metagross will not tolerate Weavile's bullshit, and will hit it with any of its moves for high damage, in particular Meteor Mash or Bullet Punch.

    [​IMG] Yanmega - Rotom-W, or Heatran revenge kill.

    [​IMG] Zapdos - Swampert due to its immunity to Zapdos' main STAB attack, Thunderbolt, and high Special Defense.
    _ _ _

    this threat list was rushed an probably out of date from when I posted it on another forum, or just generally incorrect.
  3. iKitsune

    iKitsune

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    Right onto the team its kind of funny that such an succesful team is destroyed by some of the most popular threats, nevertheless i think i have suggestion that should alleviate alot of pressure from metagross and enable you to more comfortably handle some of the weaknesses you have identifyed.

    The first suggestion i have is changing Roserade to a Choice Scarf variant you keep the same spread but it works to easily revenge kill many of the threats on your list eg: Gyarados, Starmie and Infernape. With a scarf you are also more likely to sleep or beat more leads though it will be harder to get up toxic spikes.

    Gyarados as i see it is this teams biggest problem so i will work on helping you handle that.
    Although Rotom is a useful counter to Lucario and burner of Mamoswine i seriously suggest you change it so it can easily take a +1 Waterfall, this is the spread: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spe. With this you still outspeed most of the things you are supposed to be burning but you have the added bulk to actually beat Gyarados, you need the added insurance. Crucially if you make this change i suggest you get rid of Thunder Punch on Metagross and use Stealth Rock instead of SR on the ScarfTran. On ScarfTran you have got the option of using Dragon Pulse or HP ice for that less suicidal option against Dragons stuck in Outrage or MixMence.

    If you do make this change on Metagross it may be wise just to go with Explosion over EQ which will help you to reliably counter Outragers (no one likes Mash to miss) and Gyarados if Rotom is down so you can keep Stealth Rock. This change would however leave you more open to Starmie and Latias but its worth a try.

    Of course you have been extremely succesful with this team as shown by your ranking and because of this I make these suggestions tentatively, as they could help handle your problems but on the other hand they could hinder the teams success at pulling off its goals and sweeping potential of certain members.

    Once again, great job.
  4. franky

    franky
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    I don't rate much but since this was put in so much effort I will. The synergy is great by the way but you left out one of the more forgotten, lethal threats if you don't pack something to stop it. I'm talking about Empoleon. When I looks at teams, I look for choice users, when there is choice users, there will always be pokemon who take advantage of this and try to advance their way by using a stat-boosting move. An opening is all SubPetaya Empoleon needs, this being Stealth Rock from Heatran and once they find out what kind of Swampert it is, they can easily switch it on it. What will you do next? Empoleon who pack Hydro Pump + Grass Knot can really kill you. Surf variants can give you trouble also. The synergy is great but Its hard to make a suggestion without ruining it y'know? I don't know what to change but I will suggest it later, just wanted to point out this big threat. If anything I want to ask how you handle SubPetaya Empoelon?

    Toxic Spikes is his synergy and slapping a Scarf on it does handle Gyarados and the others but he looses his synergy.
  5. Rhinosaur

    Rhinosaur

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    I have one big suggestion. Since you are using Toxic Spikes, you won't need Will-o-Wisp on Rotom. Steel-types don't switch into Rotom to begin with, so you won't be using it often, anyway. You can put Reflect in its place, so you can more easily win the battle against Pursuit-trappers like Tyranitar or Heracross, and *somewhat* check Gyarados better, or you can put Hydro Pump there for Infernape.
  6. 6A9 Ace Matador

    6A9 Ace Matador veni, vidi, vici, VERSACE, VERSACE VERSACE

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    An excelent RMT, a complete threat list, and extremely detailed descriptions. Well done Vashta =] No real weak i can see other than if your opponent has both DD Gyara and Sub Lum Machamp (If he has spikes up, you can be in a lot of trouble). It can Payback your ghost, Ice punch Rade (Who may well be weakened late or middle game), and Dynamic punch everything else. Gyarados then proceeds to clean up the sweep. I think you should run Psychic + Hp Fighting / Thunder Bolt on Jirachi, as you're not exactly Ttar weak. Psychic also has a Special Defense drop chance, and it also helps versus Poison types who absorb your toxic spikes! Great read, thanks for putting in this much effort into an RMT!

    Edit:"Heracross - Heatran outspeeds all but Jolly Choice Scarfed Heracross. Rotom-W can somewhat deal with it also. Jirachi's Psychic will do a hell of a lot if it can score a hit against non-Scarfed variants."

    You don't have psychic. Yet?
  7. franky

    franky
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    easily?
    I'll give one scenario.
    Hydro Pump = (107.18% - 126.24%)
    opt for Surf = (84.65% - 99.75%) 33.33 chance of OHKO w/ Sr down

    Now I'm sure he's a good battler but there's absolutely nothing to stop it though. Your only source of revenge kill is Metagross' Bullet Punch which Empoleon resists. But if your smart you can somehow avoid this by double switching for with Swampert.

    You could CM without attacking but it can really return again to hurt you.
  8. 6A9 Ace Matador

    6A9 Ace Matador veni, vidi, vici, VERSACE, VERSACE VERSACE

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    He can just Curse up with Pert and stall the Empoleon out of Surfs. It's not like he HAS to attack it into Petaya Torrent range. Or he can just spam Jirachi CM untill Empoleon isn't even getting through his subs. (Should take like one cm?)

    Also: Mettagross: 79.49% chance to die with SR up. Only
    2.56%without!
  9. vashta

    vashta "It was pretty cool to watch Tim Duncan from afar"
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Yeah I actually like the suggestion with Roserade carrying Choice Scarf... I will certainly look into that further and use it before I finally retire this team. I guess having a revenge killer in Roserade would be a decent choice. I just don't like the fact that I could be forced to make a sacrifice to get Roserade back in to revenge kill, but get outpredicted for the same scenario to repeat itself.

    Rotom-w's EVs... hmm... I never really liked the possibility of me needing to change them to decrease the Speed. Working to survive a +1 Waterfall, however, could be a bonus allowing me to relieve Metagross of so many responsibilities and actually let it concentrate on other priorities such as Salamence, etcetera. This is certainly something I will look into. I guess the Speed isn't as much of a necessity now I think about it; defenses are most needed at the moment.

    As I have told you, Heatran has Stealth Rock so I am not begging for it lol. Someone suggested Explosion over Earthquake, but Earthquake always seemed to be the superior choice for the odd switch from certain Pokémon but I have overlooked the fact that these odd Pokémon can be worked around. I will test Explosion and get back to you about it.

    Thanks.

    Roserade is usually rendered useless by the time Empoleon is brought out. Otherwise, Jirachi will revenge kill. Nevertheless, it is a massive problem if I am damage beforehand.

    OK, to be honest I don't really see the difference between the two moves as I need Will-O-Wisp's durability and affects way later in-game if I Rotom-w is ever to be removed early in the game; Reflect could easily be played around by my opponent otherwise. Also, don't they act the same but the main difference being Reflect's time restrictions?

    Is there any particular reason for why I should sacrifice the protection Substitute gives me for Hidden Power Fighting? If anything, I would be using Psychic for just Machamp, and losing the capability to beat certain Pokémon such as Blissey who can Thunder Wave me, causing annoying problems, and Celebi who would otherwise resist everything and Thunder Wave. Latias is in a similar position, but in fact sets up on me; Subsitute + CM Dragon Pulse will cause massive problems if that is the case (with Metagross' possible elimination).

    Also, Jirachi had Psychic before I posted it. Read the bottom of the threat list. :)
  10. iKitsune

    iKitsune

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    If you do go with this change it may be an idea to use the standard midgame bronzong over Metagross, because from what i can see Salamence is really a problem for this team. They counter similar things but Bronzong counters Mence better and can actually run leftovers instead of Shuca due to its typing.
  11. musiquev24

    musiquev24

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    I must applaud you for making a great RMT and clearly spending an extensive amount of time into a RMT. If only everyone could spend this amount of time into a RMT!

    Anyway, I also must laugh at how your team has trouble with some of the most common threats ;_; but alas, it has not held you back.

    One thing I might suggest is changing Will-O-Wisp on your Rotom. I see your specific use for it on your team, but I feel as someone who is a setup sweeper, your Rotom could perhaps benefit from getting more coverage via Hydro Pump. But if your Rotom is doing fine, then you don't need to fix what isn't broken.

    For your Metagross, if he isn't doing the job as good as you want him to, you might try Porygon2. Defensive P2 makes an excellent counter to both Gyarados and Salamence, both of them pokemon your team seems to struggle against. The downside of course is less coverage against gengar >_>.

    Anyway, once again, great RMT.
  12. joshe

    joshe the best

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    Hey Vashta.

    Well this is a really nice team, and has great synergy, but you are really Mixmence and DD-gyara weak (what team isn't though X_X) as stated in your threat list. Only Swampert can really handle its barrage of attacks, but it can't do much back with only a resisted waterfall. Heatran can do a number on it with fire blast, due to many having a -spdef nature, but it will never OHKO (unless it is severely weakened). You do not want to waste heatran that early in the game either, as it is your check for all things offensive here. To be honest, I really want you to take out explosion for hp-ice, but that will hurt the team more than help it. All you can really do is to predict what it can do, such as taking a draco meteor with metagross, and either switching out or take the -2 fire blast and ohko(after SR and a few Lo recoils iirc) with Meteor Mash, but thats hardly good enough for a great and succesful team like this. Unfortunatly i can't suggest a change without changing the whole team around (and more than likely making it suck >_>).

    Also DD-mence and dd-gyara gives you a hella lot of trouble. If one gets gets a dd, it will still do alot of damage to metagross, albeit being OHKOed by by Meteor Mash and Thunderpunch, respectively. Both are also commonly run together, which is very bad for this team. The only thing that can justify this would be a Choice Scarf Latias, being able to check those threats, as well as mixmence and opposing heatran, which will really do a number on this team. This I suggest over metagross, as it seems that Latias can do a better job checking those mentioned threats. Although, Choice Band Tyranitar can 2HKO the whole team if its played right, the payoff from checking those speedy threats could outdue that weakness. The set i suggest for Latias is 252 Spatk/252 Spe/4 spdef, Timid, with the moves Draco Meteor, Surf, ThunderBolt, and Trick. I can't guarantee that this'll work, but i do suggest you try it.

    Now It seems Cursepert isn't doing much for your team. It seems like a defensive swampert can do more for your team now that heatran is gone. Plus you need Stealth Rock on your team (don't try to put SR on Metagross, hes your most important member). You can also utilize Protect to help further the Poison damage on your opponent. Stealth Rock, Ice beam/surf, Protect, Earthquake with 240 hp/216 def/52 Spatk and Leftovers should suffice. He should also Provide a little more insurance against DD-mence and his Outrage. You will have to rely on a little more prediction for Mixmence, although he isn't much of a threat with Latias in the wings.

    Hope I helped, and Good Luck with the team, should you ever use it again :)
  13. Kingdrom

    Kingdrom

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    This is a great team. The execution of the strategy here is spot-on.

    There are some changes to be made. First, changing Heatran to a defensive Latias would help your situation immensely. Latias deals with your Infernape weakness quite well, only fearing U-Turn. It does decently as a Mixmence check. The potential downsides are, as joshe mentioned, Tyranitar giving you problems, as well as Scizor becoming that much more annoying. However, it gives you a safer switch-in to LO Zapdos and Magnezone (as a double switch to avoid having Metagross trapped when it is at low health). Swampert isn't always a sufficient check because Hp Grass does over 75%, leaving your Swampert crippled.

    For these reasons, I think it would be more beneficial to run a defensive set with Reflect. Something to this effect:

    Latias @ Leftovers
    Nature: Timid
    Ev's: 252 Hp / 76 SAtk / 180 Spe
    -Reflect
    -Recover / Wish
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Calm Mind

    Presumably you would begin by Reflecting on the opponent's switch and then fleeing and using the extra defense to block against Tyranitar's / Scizor's attacks. This is especially important for Tyranitar since everything on your team can be 2HKO'ed by CB Crunch since Tyranitar cannot be burned.

    With this, you would change Stealth Rock to be used on Metagross over Earthquake or Thunderpunch. Truthfully Earthquake isn't really doing much except DD Kingdra, who doesn't get through your team well due to 2 bulky steels and no water weaknesses (with Latias > Heatran). I know this isn't a stall team, but Wish should be considered on Latias so that you can support Metagross, the backbone of your team (and the other viable SR user on the team).

    On Rotom-W, you may want the extra Gyarados insurance to prevent it from sweeping your team in tandem with Salamence. This would require a spread of 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 Spe with a Timid nature. Ironically, this puts the Ev's to as good of a use as your original spread. It outspeeds Adamant Lucario (but not Jolly Mamoswine- what's Mamoswine going to do to Rotom anyway) and ensures that you survive +1 Waterfall from Max attack LO Gyara with SR and Leftovers taken into account. Surprisingly, you can keep your moveset the same if you so wish- Charge Beam does a minimum of 69% to offensive Gyarados, a KO after SR and his Life Orb recoil.

    It seems that in general, you are attempting to use Shuca Berry Metagross as a more powerful Bronzong. Why not just use Bronzong? It works on DD Salamence better and puts Explosion to good use. Gyro Ball is effective against DDMence and Gengar, important because your team lacks excessive speed to revenge kill these threats. It makes a better switch-in to random Draco Meteors and can be built as physically bulky as your Metagross while maintaining higher special defense. The standard set with more attack works fine.
  14. Stathakis

    Stathakis I hax people in real life
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    I am here posting in disagreement with the above rates. I am for keeping heatran on the team, as it provides the resistances and speed that makes vashta's team click. I think its resistances coupled with the ability to do immediate damage, something a large portion of this team lacks, far outweigh the benefits from things like reflect. I am also against the removal of cursepert from the team, as he is also, as vashta explained, instrumental to the success of the team.

    However, I will agree with joshe that a scarflatias would be beneficial to this team if it found a way on. I think that you can safely replace metagross with latias, since metagross's purpose is to check those same threats, gyarados and salamence. what latias enables you to do is check them over and over again where metagross can only do so once. I find that this team is bowled over by incredibly hard, fast hitting teams that pack three or four setup sweepers in the same team. the extra speed latias provides essentially screws those teams over, especially when coupled with scarftran, who is able to take priority attacks from the likes of scizor and lucario. between these two scarfed mons, offense should not be too much of a bother. in the meantime, as long as you can keep your toxic spikes up, neither should stall. another added bonus you get by using latias is the ability to revenge kill empoleon should it happen to set up after heatran has killed something.


    cheers
  15. SoT

    SoT Yes please!
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    Metagross is the pokemon holding this team together, there is no way that Latias can come in and do the job that Metagross is doing. I would say Heatran is the pokemon that can be replaced without very many drawbacks. If he changes swampert to a defensive set, Surf, Ice Beam, Protect, Stealth Rock, (maybe roar over protect), that'll free up a move on heatran. From there he can either just run HP Elec to kill Gyarados, and hope by Metagross takes down Salamence, or you could just switch out heatran for latias and have a check for both of those without having to explode. In my opinion, I'd drop it for Latias.
  16. Stathakis

    Stathakis I hax people in real life
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    well, let's take a look. according to vashta, this is metagross's job


    between latias and heatran, he can take on gyarados, salamence, gengar, and frailer foes. the only thing metagross adds to the team is some physical strength, which is only useful to beat blissey, which latias can somewhat accomplish by using trick. metagross holds the team together by checking threats. between heatran and latias, all the threats are handled.


    now, your suggestion to remove heatran for latias and then switch cursepert to srpert, that completely changes the team. according to vashta, this team utilizes toxic spikes along with great resistances and speed to wear down the enemy while utilizing slow setup sweepers to continue to stall the opponent. by taking out heatran, a huge portion of the "resistances and speed" aspect is lost from the team, and cursepert is a part of the team's "core." in other words, he's pretty much irreplacable, if vashta wants this team to continue to fulfill its original purpose. since we're improving this team and not building a new one, the original purpose must stay. by using latias > heatran and srpert > cursepert, sure, he checks a few threats better, but the purpose of the team is completely lost in the process.
  17. SoT

    SoT Yes please!
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    He can't take him on, he can revenge kill them yeah. That's two totally separate things in themselves. And Protect Pert, can still wear down teams, Protect gives you an extra turn of leftys recovery, and they take damage from it. You help your team out more defensively, so he doesn't get completely murdered by any decent offensive team. And how are any resistances or speed lost? You GAIN MORE FUCKING SPEED. Unless Scarf Latias is slower than Heatran you're making up shit now. Also, resistance wise, with Latias, you gain Fight reistance (benefits the team), Ground immune (benefits the team), in place of Dark and Ice weaknesses which can be handled rather easily. He really even could run a Sub Zapdos, if he wants to fuck around with Tspikes, but then he'd have to rely on metagross for taking out Gyarados.

    And the purpose of the team isn't lost, he still sets up around CM Jirachi. n__n
  18. Stathakis

    Stathakis I hax people in real life
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    latias can switch into gyarados just as well as metagross can, if not better due to the fact that she can also switch in on stuff like cbgyara. as for salamence, it's going to be a prediction game no matter who is on the team, metagross or latias, but at least with latias he can be at full health after he predicts right, rather than nearly dead. same thing with stuff like gengar.

    "any decent offensive team" doesn't murder the team with heatran and latias. in fact, between them alone, as well as being able to switch in rotom and swampert (who has recovery when he's resttalking, so he can switch in more than a few times). lots of scarfers > offensive teams. and since these scarfers both have really nice resistances and bulk, he can switch them in and "revenge kill" a lot of crap without anything actually dying.

    yeah, but by keeping heatran and replacing metagross he gets more useful resistances (all the ones you named) and more speed, with which he can wear down the opponent faster into setup range of his sweepers.

    cursepert sweeps teams AND fucks around with toxic spikes. and all the threats are still covered. why go for less win conditions when you can have more?

    yeah, but this isn't a jirachi team. jirachi happens to be the main sweeper, but the team is centered around the "toxictrio," which includes cursepert as a sweeper.
  19. animenagai

    animenagai
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    This is a fantastic team. Love the concept bro. One thing that worries me is that so many teams are practically immune to toxic spikes, but whatever, I'm not gonna change this awesomely creative core idea. You could very well set up a sweep with those 2 pokes anyways, just because they are less prepared for.

    I support the removal of metagross. Gross isn't really a counter for mence and co anyways. It gets worn down quite easily. Scarfed latias is a good option, though I don't like the pursuit weak. It's not that you don't have anything to set up on a pursuit, I'm just not sure how much good one curse would do (whereas something like spikes is definitely gonna help out). I think scarfed flygon should hence be an option.
  20. Shur.tugal

    Shur.tugal

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    First of all, I have to say, brilliant RMT.

    Secondly, I would like to second Choice Scarf on Roserade. This is for two reasons. One, you rely on Roserade to come in later and do some damage with its moves to bulky waters for Rotom to kill and to counter what you listed in the threat list. This cannot be done if you are taking a hit that will OHKO you and surviving on 1HP. Two, with a scarf, Roserade out-speeds almost all leads, allowing you to put to sleep the threats and set up TSpikes on the ones that don't threaten you. Besides, if you do sleep powder, you can always come back in later to get TSpikes up. That way, you'll have a full health Roserade to aid your other team members.

    ...I was going to post something else but I've forgotten it. I'll repost if I remember it.
  21. vashta

    vashta "It was pretty cool to watch Tim Duncan from afar"
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
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    402
    The Porygon2 suggestion, although logical in regards to the ordinary Gyarados and Salamence, couldn't be implemented due to the fact that Gengar would become even more of a threat, and too would Latias; heck, if Heatran was taken out, Alakazam would be, too.

    OK as I stated, I have tried the Latias as suggested quite a few months ago, and underwent more testing as you made that same suggestion. The problem I have with Scarf Latias is the fact that it is easily taken out by Pursuit if foes are willing to sacrifice to kill it... otherwise, I guess I can "predict" my way around the troublesome prospect. I also lose Stealth Rock which is vital, especially with the removal of Gyarados and Salamence - it's hard enough as it is. Though I do note the Pursuit weakness, I also have nothing that could possibly take advantage to that bar possibly CursePert. I will further test and get back to you guys with my final decision. :)

    Your suggestion to remove CursePert is something, though it sounds logical, that doesn't go with the idea of the original "ToxicTrio" core, which was the whole point of me making this team. Of course I will test, but I am certainly against permanently changing it in place of the standard defensive Swampert.

    I either set up, predict around certain switches, or put a Pokémon such as leading Smeargle to Sleep - otherwise, I am more or less set-up on and it's GG.


    Thanks for the replies, guys - SoT / Stathakis, I will reply to your comments later when I return from school.

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