1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Team Study - Week 6 (Hack)

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Melee Mewtwo, May 3, 2013.

  1. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,189
    Team Study
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Welcome to Team Study. The goal of this project is to help unite the community while improving the overall quality of the player-base by studying the art of teambuilding at the highest level.

    What is this for?
    This project is made in response to an assortment of issues plaguing the community. There is a division between the young general Ubers community and the experienced veterans that have supported and explored the tier more than any other. The lack of communication and interaction between the two result in the knowledge remaining with the knowledgeable and the newcomers left to grope in the dark. Hopefully, igniting intelligent discussion between the two sides through the complexities of advanced teambuilding will help to bring the community together and advance it towards one that is active and enjoyable.

    How does it work?
    Each week (more or less) there will be a high-level team that will be displayed for the community as a whole to discuss. The aim of this discussion will be to analyze the team by identifying roles and explaining their purpose, investigating specific movesets and Pokemon choices, strong points of the team, flaws it may have and even questions concerning unusual or confusing aspects. Essentially, the team will serve as a model to learn from and an example to refer to. Once the discussion is over, the teambuilder will post explaining his decisions and answering any questions or false ideas concerning them.

    What do I get out of it?
    The most polite and intelligent poster that shows an interest and enthusiasm will be rewarded at the end of each week. "Winning" multiple times will lead to greater advantages. Some rewards may be:

    • Winning two/three weeks will get you voice on Ubers IRC (Even if you don't have any status yet I strongly encourage you guys to come check it out.)
    • Additional rewards will be added as the project develops and the need for a "next level" is born.
    • As always, good posts can always make you attractive for a shiny (pre-)Community Contributor badge


    Of course, the biggest reward any of you can get out of this is the knowledge learned and the pleasure of an intelligent conversation. :P
  2. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,189
    The current team for discussion is provided by Hack He Must.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Show Hide

    Groudon @ Earth Plate
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 56 Spd / 220 Atk / 232 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Dragon Tail

    Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Spacial Rend
    - Fire Blast
    - Hydro Pump
    - Thunder

    Cloyster @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Skill Link
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Icicle Spear
    - Rapid Spin
    - Shell Smash
    - Spikes

    Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 176 Spd / 252 Atk / 80 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Sacred Fire
    - Brave Bird
    - Roost
    - Tailwind

    Arceus @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Shadow Claw
    - Swords Dance
    - Brick Break

    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 248 Atk / 252 Spd / 8 SAtk
    Naive Nature
    - U-turn
    - Ice Beam
    - Flamethrower
    - Iron Head


    Hack's 700th sun team.

    Some things to consider are:

    • What do think was the main/inspiring idea/goal Hack had when building this team?
    • Is there a discernible core that he tried to build around?
    • What are the strong points of the team?
    • What are the weak spots?
    • How could his use of certain EV/moveset twists help his team vs specific threats or archetypes?
    • How does he use underrated threats to his advantage?
    • Just about anything else you might want to comment on or ask about.



    Archive:

    Week 1 (LuckOverSkill): [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Details (open)

    Dinosaur (Tyranitar) (F) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 232 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Pursuit
    - Rock Slide
    - Low Kick
    - Stealth Rock

    Mole (Excadrill) (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Rapid Spin
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Swords Dance

    Alpaca (Arceus-Water) @ Splash Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Surf
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover

    Fish (Latias) (F) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 SDef / 200 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Calm Mind
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Recover

    Ant (Genesect) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - U-turn
    - Iron Head
    - Ice Beam
    - Explosion

    Bird (Ho-Oh) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 204 Def / 40 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Sacred Fire
    - Brave Bird
    - Whirlwind
    - Roost

    Winning Poster: Sweep

    Week 2 (Problems):[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Details (open)

    Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Cursed Body
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Icy Wind
    - Spikes
    - Taunt
    - Shadow Ball

    Kyogre @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 SAtk / 136 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Water Spout
    - Surf
    - Thunder
    - Ice Beam

    Dialga @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 220 SDef / 36 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Roar
    - Thunder
    - Draco Meteor
    - Stealth Rock

    Mewtwo @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Psystrike
    - Calm Mind
    - Ice Beam
    - Aura Sphere

    Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Rock Slide
    - Toxic

    Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 136 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 116 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Tail

    Winning Poster: Esports

    Week 3 (Dice):[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Details (open)

    Groudon @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Lava Plume

    Arceus-Fighting @ Fist Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 4 SAtk / 168 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Judgment
    - Recover
    - Ice Beam
    - Magic Coat

    Zekrom @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Outrage
    - Bolt Strike

    Scizor (M) @ Occa Berry
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 244 HP / 16 Atk / 248 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Toxic
    - Roost
    - Bullet Punch

    Mewtwo @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Psystrike
    - Ice Beam
    - Aura Sphere
    - Calm Mind

    Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Draco Meteor
    - Recover
    - Psyshock

    Winning Poster: Sweep

    Week 4 (Furry):[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Show Hide

    Groudon @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Fire Punch

    Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 156 HP / 248 Atk / 12 SAtk / 92 Spd
    Lonely Nature
    - Substitute
    - Dragon Tail
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Darkrai @ Leftovers
    Trait: Bad Dreams
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Dark Void
    - Substitute
    - Nasty Plot
    - Dark Pulse

    Arceus @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast

    Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 152 HP / 160 SAtk / 192 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Roost
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Grass Knot

    Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Sleep Talk
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - X-Scissor

    Winning Poster: Bryce

    Week 5 (Faint):[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Show Hide

    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 28 Spd / 192 Def / 36 Atk
    Impish Nature
    IVs: 30 Spd
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Fire Punch
    - Roar
    Shiftry @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Nasty Plot
    - Giga Drain
    - Dark Pulse
    - Focus Blast
    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Atk
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Spikes
    - Volt Switch
    - Rapid Spin
    - Gyro Ball
    Ho-Oh @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Sacred Fire
    - Punishment
    - Sleep Talk
    Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Flamethrower
    - Judgment
    - Recover
    Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 192 Spd / 248 HP / 68 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Thunder Wave
    - Recover
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Roar

    Winning Poster: Brace Bird Spam
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  3. moonbase

    moonbase

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    Messages:
    262
    Cool im first

    I believe that the main idea with this team is to get up hazards, weaken the opponent's team, and then to sweep with excadrill, which is by the way the most common strategy to sand teams.

    This team's defensive core is arceus water, latias, hooh, and tyranatar, which is in my opinion extremely solid. It literally beats almost all noteworthy pokemon in ubers. The few pokemon that do get past this core (DD rayquayza for an example) get easily,trampled by Luck's standard revenge killer in genesect, which is getting more popular as people see how good it is in today's metagame, and excadrill for late game sweeping.Luck's team also shows that he went to extreme measures not to get swept by arceus Fighting by seeing the move sets for latias(psyshock) and the hooh.

    To me, this team is MASSIVLY, Physical ground pokemon weak. With some prior damage to Arceus Water, It is essentially a clean sweep. They are by far, the biggest threat to this guy's team.
    252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Water: 222-263 (50 - 59.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. For,an example
    Don't get me wrong here, wil o on arceus water is supposed to help witn groudon, and other physical sweepers in the ubers tier, but will o misses a lot, and it is a shaky check to the pleathora of physical monsters in ubers. His team also shows that he went to extreme measures not to get swept by arceus fighting which is commonly known as the biggest pain I the ass for sand teams.

    This team is almost perfect, except for the groudon weakness. I do not think there is any reasonable way to fix this problem besides severely altering Luck's team. If cress had a reliable recovery move, then it would be a perfect replacement for latias, but unfortunately this is not a perfect world.

    I think this is a truly awesome team, and it is a worthy first candidate for this new thing that the ubers staff is trying out.

    BTW: if people here complain for giving genesect thunderbolt, I would like to remind them that it is the few ways ( besides kamikaze and psyshock) that Luck has a chance to hurt Kyogre through a direct attack.

    Edit: seeing mr.lol's point, I realize that my above point was pretty stupid. I recommend changing thunderbolt for flamethrower, because after doing some damage calcs, thunderbolt only hits swift swimmers that will outspeed you (bar omastar) skarm, lucario, fellow genesect, blazekin, hooh, Heatran, forretress, and arceus steel/fire. Flame thrower hits most of theses pokemon, and the pokes that it doesn't would force, genesect out anyways.
  4. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    This team looks extremely solid, but I can see some potential flaws in it.

    The first is that although it has two Ground-type immune, it can be annoyed by them. This may sound weird so I'll elaborate a bit. The only two Ground-immune pokemon, Latias and Ho-Oh can be struck down with moves frequently accompanied by mons that use it. Enemy Excadrill, Groudon, and Ground Arceus can infact sweep if given the chance. Enemy Excadrill with Swords Dance Iron Head EQ and Rock Slide can basically OHKO the entire team after a boost, and the only way to basically check it is to hope Luck's own Excadrill can speed tie with it. If its Jolly or holding an Air Ballon, it'll be practically impossible to stop Latias is wiped out by +2 Iron Head, and Ho-Oh can't take a Rock Slide. Double Dance Groudon and Swords Dance Ground Arceus fare similarily, but they can't exactly OHKO Latias but its not that big of a concern considering that it can't OHKO back (Ground Arceus can even setup Recovers and maybe even SD on it, but it can't outspeed Excadrill and will take a chunk from Ice Beam from Genesect). Gliscor also can be a nuisance, nothing can take Toxic but Excadrill who promptly gets EQed and destroyed. It can even find the time to setup a Sub infront of Tyranitar, who basically can't touch it.

    I'm not really 100% sure what he tried to build around. I can see him trying to go for an Excadrill sweep, using the SR setup by TTar and Ho-Oh's phazing (and the damage it accumulates from Sacred Fire + Brave Bird (namely on Giratina-a)) to try to make enemies weak enough to the point where they'll get crushed by Excadrill. Ho-Oh should be fine for most of the match, since SR should be at bay with Excadrill's spinning. Latias serves as the team's check to Kyogre and Water Arceus what can switch into Kyurem White, Water Arceus also serves as a handy physical tank, and can check certain mons like Ekiller (although Lum Berry versions ARE A PROBLEM, Ho-Oh's defensive spread stops it a bit though) and Ho-Oh if needed. Genesect tops things of by serving as the revenge killer, stopping Latios and Latias while also serving as insurance against a Rayquaza sweep (who would otherwise cream everything after obtaining a Dragon Dance boost). He doesn't have a spin blocker but it doesn't seem necessary considering the only hazard present is SR. The lack of Spikes will make accumulating damage from Ho-Oh's phazing a bit more difficult though.

    The problem with going for a Excadrill sweep though (again if this isn't his goal / win condition then I don't know what is and if there isn't one that itself is a problem) is that the team isn't very offensively natured per se. Latias lacks Special Attack investment so its attacks aren't the most frightening thing to exist, and Water Arceus is going to be a sitting duck unless it can boost its own stats quickly. I'm not really that sure how to pair up this issue though, a more offensive Latias spread and reverting to another Arceus form might work out but I'm not too sure how this would work out (switching Water Arceus will open up a hole to Ho-Oh too). It looks to work fine against most balanced teams, but a member might fall and create a hole against those offensive teams that utilize type-stacking strategies. Stall that can seperately deal with Ho-Oh and Excadrill is a nightmare since the spinning won't happen now and the lack of offense is taken advantage of to result in a lot of phazing with hazards. If Latias is lured out with Twave Kyogre and for some reason a Palkia or some rain sweeper is waiting in wings, then things aren't going to be fun at all, rain offense in general can be very devastating to play against, especially since Genesect and Excadrill can't revenge the sweepers. The best thing that can really be done is to wall them with Water Arceus, but there's a limit to how much it can take (this is the reason why teams that type-stack might be a nuisance). Even if its not thunder wave Kyogre being used the fact Latias's damage output isn't that high still will create some issues.

    EDIT:
    U-turn actually outdamages Thunderbolt against Kyogre, due to the fact it will always recieve an Attack boost against it. I'm not complaining against it yet, but just saying :P.

    I might edit more stuff in later but I can't really think of anything else right now :(.
  5. Sweep

    Sweep
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Messages:
    836
    Strong points to this team:

    1. This team has many switch-ins to common threats. For example, Arceus-Water and Latias can both come in on Kyogre, Arceus-Water can burn offensively-oriented Groudon, and Ho-Oh checks Arceus-Ghost. Having a team that can not only switch in on such threats but immediately threaten them is extremely important.

    2. This team has a plan of action: Get up SR as quickly as possible, wear down the opponent via a combination of sand, burns from Ho-Oh and Arceus-Water, and fairly powerful attacks. Then, Excadrill and Genesect can clean up late game with their power and speed.

    3. This team isn't weak to any particular weather. Latias and Arceus-Water can check Kyogre, Arceus-Water will be a major pain for opposing Sand teams, and Genesect can single-handedly destroy Hail teams late game. I agree with Mr. Lol that Support Groudon won't be fun to deal with, but this team can wear it down, especially if Groudon lacks Stone Edge (because then Ho-Oh can use Sacred Fire against it).

    4. This team is not Toxic Spikes weak in the slightest (except Arceus-Water). For balance teams, this is very important

    5. A distant 5th in terms of importance, but all of Luck's pokemon are very good. There are no Gastrodon's or other niche pokemon that might be deadweight against certain teams.


    Weak points to this team:

    1. Where's the EKiller check? Tobes and other knowledgeable posters have explained why Will-O-Wisp will never consistently work against EKiller. If Arceus carries a Lum Berry, you need to hit it twice. There is only a 56.25% chance of this happening. You could phaze it once with physically defensive Ho-Oh but because your team lacks Spikes, Arceus may get another chance to set up late in the game. I know EKiller isn't used a lot on really strong teams but it's still something that needs a better initial check than Whirlwind Ho-Oh or Specially Defensive Arceus-Water.

    2. Use Iron Head over Thunderbolt on Physical Genesect please. It will help a lot against the Kyurem forms, which this team won't like much if the enemy has placed hazards on the field. Thunderbolt is a poor move in Ubers as it is and hits little (Ice Beam already hits Tornadus, Lugia weakly, etc). Thunderbolt does hit Skarmory hard, which your team dislikes, but I don't think it's worth it, especially since almost any Physically based Arceus form can come in on the weak Thunderbolt and set up a Swords Dance.

    3. This team hates Giratina-O with Earthquake so much. Excadrill cannot do too much to it as Giratina comes in to block its rapid spin. Really, nothing on your team threatens it except Latias, which is 2HKO'ed by Shadow Sneak while failing to OHKO in return with Dragon Pulse, and Tyranitar, which takes hefty damage from Adamant Earthquake before killing Giratina-O with Pursuit. As Tyranitar needs to stay alive for as long as possible to win the weather war (which is so important to this team), using it to beat EQ Giratina-O isn't optimal.

    This is a nice team. I would really like to see Ferrothorn somewhere in here to help set up Spikes and make a late-game Exca sweep that much easier. Spikes also make Ho-Oh's Whirlwind that much more useful. Maybe take out Arceus-Water for it?
  6. Gogeta

    Gogeta

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    81
    This should be fun.

    Luck's team showcases what is arguably one of the strongest Sand balanced teams available. His goal, to me, was to build his team up for an Excadrill sweep by providing the obligatory weather and bulky team mates that can help tackle the offensive behemoths in Ubers that Excadrill can't take on. Furthermore, Genesect acts as a potent momentum grabber, giving Luck a chance to U-Turn into Excadrill to punish a bad switch on the opponent's part; it also acts as a solid revenge killer.

    This team packs a very sturdy specially defensive core of Arceus Water and Latias. Between them, they can check or counter nearly every special attacker in the tier, as well as completely shutting down Kyogre. Physically defensive Ho-Oh then adds some physical bulk to the core, completely decimating the Giratina forms 1v1. Tyranitar also packs enough special bulk to function as a solid check to most dragons if Arceus is too weak.

    However, this team is heavily dependent on winning the weather war. Luck's only real win condition is Excadrill. Sure Arceus Water has CM and an attack, but it's still going to be walled to infinity and back by the ubiquitous Ferrothorn. While Luck has done a fabulous job in making sure he wins the weather war (Latias+Waterceus for rain, Ho-Oh for sun), he's not going to win them all. In particular his team is going to have massive difficulties breaking down the common rain core of Ferrothorn-Giratina-O-Bulky Kyogre. In rain, nothing on Luck's team can reliably take down Ferrothorn bar Ho-Oh. The problem is that in rain, Excadrill is not going to be spinning hazards away any time soon.

    To remedy this, I suggest running a max special attack Latias or Latios. With full investment, Latias really packs a punch, and its HP Fire will 2HKO Ferrothorn in the rain. Alternatively, you could run Latios, as it hits much harder. You do lose the ability to reliably switch into Kyogre (specs will decimate you), but you hit noticeably harder, and this team could really do with a nice wallbreaker to ease the burden on Excadrill (for example, Latios can make quick work of Giratina A, who Excadrill hates).

    This team may also have problems with Zekrom, particularly scarf. Excadrill is the only member of the team that can switch into it without being OHKO'd or taking irreparable damage. Even then, the mole doesn't appreciate repeated Dragon Claws to the face, especially when it has Life Orb. Your only win condition can be broken through by something that's supposed to lose to Excadrill, which isn't good.

    Therefore, I suggest you run an Excadrill spread of 112 HP/252 Atk/144 Spd with an Adamant nature. This allows you to switch in to Zekrom much much easier, while still outspeeding Timid Scarf Palkia under sand, and with max attack to maintain all your punch when sweeping. Just to show you how reliable this spread is:

    252 Atk Zekrom Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 109-129 (30.19 - 35.73%) -- 36.57% chance to 3HKO Without the added HP

    252 Atk Zekrom Dragon Claw vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 110-129 (28.27 - 33.16%) -- guaranteed 4HKO With the added HP

    I'm only using Dragon Claw because no sane individual would lock themselves into Outrage or Bolt Strike with an Excadrill running around. But I hope you can see how useful the added bulk is, making your Excadrill a much stronger switch in to scarf Zekrom.

    Overall, this is an extremely good example of how threatening sand teams can be in the Ubers metagame, and I hope my small changes have made it even more impressive.
  7. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,189
    Great responses so far everybody!

    I just wanted to mention real quick that the EV spreads may be a tad off. Luck had accidentally deleted his teams but he recreated this one from logs so that I could use it here. Go ahead and comment on what you see here but if any of them have you scratching your head (I know the Latias one looks meh to me) don't worry too much about it. (still go ahead and comment on it though)

    You guys have covered so much already that I want to pose some more questions so that nobody else feels like all has already been said and done. Now that you guys have identified some weaknesses in the team, how do you think Luck played around these threats in battle? Would they have much opportunity to come in and setup anywhere? Would there be specific teammembers that Luck would have to play cautiously with to avoid giving that opportunity? Instead of an outright counter/check, does he use multiple soft checks to prevent the potential sweep of a Pokemon? (looking at Ekiller here)

    I also wanted to try to give the hazard side of the team some more consideration. What does Luck bring to this side of the game? Does he invest a lot into it or does he focus more on other areas of his team? How does he deal with common hazard setters (both SR, Spikes and Tspikes)?

    Of course, there's a lot more to look at than just this so if you haven't had a chance to speak yet go ahead and share your thoughts. (and if you had keep at it) It doesn't matter if some points sound a bit redundant, that doesn't mean you don't have something else to say about it.
  8. Aquasition

    Aquasition

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    217
    1. I think he built his team around getting Excadrill to sweep the opponent's team by using Latias, Genesect, Ho-oh, and Waterceus to wear down other weather starters and Excadrill checks.

    2. I guess the basic core he used was T-Tar+ Excadrill+Latias. T-tar gets sandstorm up for Excadrill, as well as pursuit-trapping threats, like scarfers not locked into an SE attack, and Ghost-Types. Excadrill is meant to benefit from T-Tar's weather, allowing it to sweep the enemy's team. Latias covers most of the duo's weaknesses defensively, allowing it to be used as a pivot. She also can weaken the opponent's excadrill checks by attacking them. Ho-oh, Genesect, and Waterceus help Latias accomplish this goal of weakening Exca's checks.

    3. It is all-around strong, and checks just about every threat. Even if the team loses Excadrill, there is still a high chance of winning by attacking with Latias, Genesect, and Ho-oh

    4. Groudon can hurt T-tar and Ho-oh, while removing Excadrill's sand. SD Ghostceus can put a lot of hurt on Latias and T-tar, as well as Ho-oh if it gets to use SD. Shadow Force variants can even take a huge chunk out of Waterceus if WoW fails via missing or losing the speed tie. Skarmory laughs at everything T-tar and Excadrill can throw at them. Same with Gira-O, only replace T-tar with Ho-oh. Waterceus dislikes Grassceus a lot. However, I'd like to add that all the team members cover for each other.

    5. Genesect with T-bolt allows it to take on Ho-oh with Earthquake, which it would use on T-tar. Ho-oh with Whirlwind prevents set-up sweepers like CMceus from setting up, as well as the EV spread making ho-oh faster than other phazers.

    6. Interesting, balanced team. I'd like to have a battle against this team sometime in the future. Of course, I have a team that I am in the process of refining, so...ummm...yeah, it'd be helpful for me.



    I knew I forgot about something.

    Well, involving the hazards, he only sets up SR, so I'd say he doesn't invest that much to hazards. Forry can set up layers of spikes against T-tar, Waterceus, and maybe Genesect. However, doing that allows Excadrill to come into the fray and get a free SD, or maybe rapid spin.

    Luck probabaly played around multiple threats with the fact that his team is well varied. E-killer, for example, will either be handled by Waterceus's Will-o-Wisp, Excadrill surviving E-speed and taking a chunk of health out with Earthquake,or Ho-oh phazing Arceus out. Gira-O doesn't like T-tar, Skarmory doesn't like Ho-oh, and both of them don't like Latias. Offensive Groudon has to be careful about Genesect, and Latias. Support Groudon also has to be careful about Ho-oh. SD ghostceus can set up on Latias, and remove a huge chunk of HP from whoever switches in. Grassceus is incinerated by Ho-oh, but Ho-oh might have to be a little careful, as support Grassceus can carry T-wave.

    (Also, considering the first set of questions that were posted, I want someone to give me a theme or sweeper to create a team around. Just PM me for an idea, please and thank you. I'm not doing this for anything big, just doing it for practice and fun.)
  9. Conflict

    Conflict And who are you, the proud lord said That I must bow so low?
    is a Pre-Contributoris a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2009
    Messages:
    734
    This should be the original export of the team btw (i kinda built it with him so yeah):

    Show Hide
    Dinosaur (Tyranitar) (F) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 232 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Pursuit
    - Rock Slide
    - Low Kick
    - Stealth Rock


    Mole (Excadrill) (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Rapid Spin
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Swords Dance


    Alpaca (Arceus-Water) @ Splash Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Surf
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover


    Fish (Latias) (F) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 SDef / 200 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Calm Mind
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Recover


    Ant (Genesect) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - U-turn
    - Iron Head
    - Ice Beam
    - Explosion


    Bird (Ho-Oh) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 204 Def / 40 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Sacred Fire
    - Brave Bird
    - Whirlwind
    - Roost


    Some important changes are rock slide on TTar for Ho-Oh and some other minor stuff.
    EKiller is checked by Excadrill, Genesect, Ho-Oh and WoW-Arceus - not that big of a deal.
    Biggest problem was Giratina(-O) with Roar i think....
    Interesting fact: TTar traps and kills Lati@s, so that Waterceus can sweep (wins 1v1 vs Ferro, noroarGiras, noroar/cmthunderogres + everything else).
  10. Scaevola

    Scaevola

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    The others above mentioned many interesting things, I would like to add some thoughts on the hazard issue.

    Tspikes aren't a big problem, only two members of the team is affected by them and Ttar even has Lum. However, Waterceus really hates being poisoned/toxiced.

    Spikes and SR seems a more serious threat to the team. The common setters (Groudon and Dialga) are not easily handled by the team (even if that the Ttar set is good against the most common Dialga sets), and there is Deo-S. No Taunt or prioirity users against Deo-S, and sending Excadrill against it to spin away the hazards immediately is very risky since Exca is 2HKO-ed by Fire Punch. When I look at the team I cannot see a scenario when Deo-S does not set up SR and at least one layer of Spikes. Custap Forry does the same. Ho-Oh and Latias can stop the other types of Forry and Ferro though.

    So Luck did not concentrate on preventing the setting of hazards. There is a spinner, but Excadrill cannot get past EQ Gira-O (barring the flinch hax) or physically defensive Giratina. Rrecovery move on the half of the team helps negating the hazard damage, but SR and one layer of Spikes reduces the number of times when Ttar can come in (it lacks Lefties), and makes Genesect and Exca vulnerable to (otherwise resisted) priority moves. LO Exca also hates spikes in itself as additional passive damage which limits its sweeping capacity, which hurts since Excadrill is really important member of the team as the others highlighted above.

    In addition, these hazards make the whole team more vulnerable to an Ekiller or RP Groudon sweep. (An additional thought on Ekiller: it is true that this team has a lot of soft checks to Ekiller, but it can safely come in on Latias and really fearful at +2).

    So I am curious how Luck could play around the hazards.
  11. LuckOverSkill

    LuckOverSkill

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2010
    Messages:
    508
    Ah yeah thanks Conflict for the correct importable, losing teams sucks

    I was asked to comment on the team so here it's what I think about the responses so far

    Personally I do not believe a team should have a goal per se, mostly because having a single goal to achieve means that you always have to play the team in the same way, which makes everything so predictable

    Of course this team has win conditions, it has plenty of them: Waterceus can generally sweep after the Latwins are gone, it can also burn Ferrothorn. Burnt Ferrothorn helps both Excadrill (Power Whip will do very low damage), Waterceus itself, Tyranitar and makes it easier for Genesect to spam Iron Head / weakens one of the possible Explosion switch ins, Ho-Oh can cause lots of damage on typical Waterceus switchins, and Whirlwind can cause headaches to Heatrans / other Tyranitars and the likes.

    I am not sure how is this annoyed by ground types. For once, SD Groundceus is checked by Waterceus, Latias and Ho-Oh and damaged heavily by Genesect, RP Groudon can't OHKO Latias at +0 and if it SDs its slower + I have Genesect if it SDs, this if I don't predict at all, alternatively I can always go to Genesect if I expect SD and work from there

    Opposing Excadrills are slightly annoying but Waterceus can take a hit and retaliate, so can Latias and Ho-Oh muscles through non rock slide Excadrill

    Ho-Oh weakens Giratina(-O) to the point where Excadrill / Waterceus have a easy time taking on the rest of the team, while checking a lot of stuff (SD Arceus / Mixed Gira-O / non Thunder Dialga in rain and other stuff I forgot about)

    I love that Latias set, every time I play vs it I have problems finding decent switch ins, a more offensive spread can be used, but then the Ground problems addressed earlier become really annoying

    Honestly, Rapid Spin on Excadrill is a filler. Excadrill's real power isn't into its crazy speed or attack, else I'd be using Deoxys-A without Tar and with a more performing Pokemon, Excadrill's beauty is that it lures out the Giratinas and Groudon, damaging both heavily to let Waterceus / Ho-Oh have a field day vs the opposing team. That is why Excadrill is there, it hardly sweeps, it's more of a hole puncher / cleaner in this team. Tyranitar also allows me to run Rock Slide, since +2 RSlide doesn't OHKO Latias iirc. The choice between Iron Head and Rock Slide at this point depends only on whether you feel I don't have enough firepower vs Giratina-O, but if it's RestTalk generally it relies on Sleep Talk rolls to beat my team (needs luck), and if it's not RestTalk Ho-Oh beats it 100% of the times

    If you really find RestTalk Gira-O that annoying try this: set SR, send out Latias whenever you think your opp is about to send Giratina-O (Excadrill -> Latias works wonders), immediately switch out as your opp switches out, sand + rocks means it will die easily (taking 21% damage upon switching in), do it twice and +2 Rock Slide will most likely kill it easily

    But I don't like explaining how to deal with opposing threats that much, because it promotes mechanic playing opposed to actually thinking what to do in the battle, also there are too many possible scenarios to actually have a reliable way to deal with everything

    Latias is never my first switch in into Thunder Wave stuff, and it's hardly my first switch in into a unscouted Kyogre that might have Twave (Kyogre is the only Twave mon I could potentially switch use as a Latias 1st switch in). I would explain how that happens but I am sure everyone here knows enough about mons to understand it (also my english isn't that good so yeah, it might just result confusing)

    Investing in hazards would mean investing into a Spiker and into a Ghost, I don't have a slot for either, and I won't waste my time spiking on a team that might carry a spinner if I don't have a ghost, plus if they pack a spinner they most likely pack a way to actually spin so I'd rather not spend so much effort into spiking, especially since Spikes don't help Waterceus or Excadrill here

    It's a typical balanced team, you can't really replace anything without having a different team, and it won't necessarily be a better one
  12. Scaevola

    Scaevola

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    Your comments made me to understand several details about your team.

    But how about opposing hazards? How can you handle Deo-S or Custap Forretress leads? SR +1 Spikes do not cause much pain for the team?
  13. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,189
    Thank you so much everybody for your participation. It lasted a tad longer than a week but we are finished with Luck's team now (although he can always respond to Scaevola) and will now be moving on to the next team that was generously provided by Problems.

    As for the reward system, we won't have anything just yet as Furai wants to see how the thread turns out before settling on anything. Don't worry though, if you guys keep participating and making good posts something good will come your way. (as for last week's winner, I want to get more than one opinion before deciding it)
  14. Sweep

    Sweep
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Messages:
    836
    Problem's strategy is to lead with Froslass, which can effectively set up spikes and spinblock at the same time, find a window to get rocks up with Dialga (while hopefully killing something with Thunder or Draco Meteor), bait walls such as Ferrothorn to come in on Specsogre and wear them out with with Kyogre's ridiculously powerful attacks, and finally clean up with two efficient killers in Mewtwo and Terrakion. Though Terrakion **can** check EKiller once, I get the sense that Problems would rather Giratina-O come in on it and Dragon Tail instead so that Terrakion's power can be conserved for late-game (once the opponent's Ghost is gone) so it can be used to maximum effectiveness. Each of these 6 pokemon serve a distinct purpose and compliment each other well offensively:

    Froslass Can use Icy Wind vs. Deoxys-Speed leads which will likely attempt to Taunt Froslass. After one Icy Wind, Froslass outruns and kills Deoxys-S with Shadow Ball. Because of this, Froslass is one of the most reliable anti-Deoxys Speed leads in the game. Froslass also does a tremendous job setting up spikes, as its Ghost typing allows it to set up hazards while simultaneously spinblocking at the same time. It is a solid lead that is difficult to prevent from doing its job correctly. It should be able to get up at least 2 layers of Spikes, so that the opponent's team is put into OHKO range by the mighty attacks that the rest of Problem's team can dish out.

    Kyogre This ridiculous wallbreaker can cleanly 2HKO Specially Defensive Ferrothorn that try to switch into it. It can also hit predictable Latias switchins very hard with Ice Beam, forcing it to heal itself while Kyogre is switched out for Giratina. Kyogre can also OHKO 4/0/0 Physical Arceus forms like SD Ghostceus and Steelceus with Surf. I am not sure what 136 Speed outspeeds (it falls short of outspeeding uninvested Lugia), but it ensures that Kyogre will outrun almost every Support Dialga and Ho-Oh it runs into and proceeds to pummel with Water Spout. Overall, Kyogre is a ruthless wallbreaker that can severely weaken or kill most support Arceus, Lugia after SR Damage, etc. It also provides a way to change weather against Sand teams -- which is good because Excadrill is an issue if Giratina-O is weakened -- and Sun teams.

    Dialga Obligatory SR setter. Dialga can abuse Kyogre's rain and use it to spam Thunder, allowing it to beat Ho-Oh and Kyogre. Draco Meteor will dent most stuff that doesn't resist it. Though Dialga is walled by Chansey and Ferrothorn, it can use these switchins as a free opportunity to set up Rocks before switching out. Dialga can also Roar away setup sweepers such as Calm Mind Ghostceus while racking up entry hazard damage. Dialga is one of the best SR setters in the game, and fits onto this offensive team without taking away offensive momentum due to its immense 150 Special Attack stat and powerful moves.

    Mewtwo An elite hole-puncher. Mewtwo can clean teams up by itself late-game if the opponent is out of scarfers, but I get the sense that Probs would prefer it wear down the opponent to set up for a Terrakion sweep. Its awesome coverage, power, and speed ensure that Mewtwo will almost always deal good damage to the opponent. Its reliability as an offensive threat due to said coverage and speed make it worth including on this team.

    Terrakion Terra gives this team a scarfer to clean up the mess that Mewtwo leaves behind. Terrakion is terrific assuming it is at full health, because it outruns almost everything and deals massive damage with its powerful STAB attacks (Stone Edge and Close Combat have great coverage, hitting 8 types super-effectively). Most Ubers priority doesn't bother Terrakion much as Scizor and Conkeldurr are rare. If necessary, Terrakion can come in mid-game on something like Dragon Dance Rayquaza and revenge. Toxic gives Terrakion a way to screw over Rest-less Giratina-O and Ghostceus switchins.

    Giratina-O The team's spinblocker. Earthquake is to answer for Excadrill, Dragon Tail is for phazing, and Substitute is for scouting/protection from status. Shadow Sneak gives this team much needed priority to finish off weakened threats. Giratina-O was chosen over Giratina-A because of its significantly greater offensive presence, and was picked over Arceus-Ghost due to its ability to check EKiller and Excadrill better than Ghostceus can.

    Overall this is a strong team, though Substitute Life Orb Zekrom could be very unpleasant as nothing on this team can avoid the 2HKO while Zekrom has the freedom to switch moves. The lack of a dragon resist as a whole is unfortunate, but this is an offensive team with many ways to kill Dragons in one shot so that issue shouldn't be too bad.
  15. PROBLEMS

    PROBLEMS

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2012
    Messages:
    584
    I'll wait for a few more comments before I start responding properly but yeh. The speed was originally a speed creep from like around the 240 area due to alot of things being crept around that recently but I didn't take into consideration Lugia, thanks.
  16. Mudkiplasers

    Mudkiplasers

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2009
    Messages:
    5
    First post on the forums! I'm new, trying to get a grasp on how to play Ubers properly. Or pokemon, really.

    What do think was the main/inspiring idea/goal Probs had when building this team?
    Froslass lets Probs stop Deo-S with at most one layer of spikes up, more if Deo-S goes for the taunt. The team has a variety of very strong pokemon that all hit incredibly hard while being pretty bulky. The pokemons' coverage lets them answer a bunch of threats. Spikes is almost guaranteed, as is spinblocks with both Froslass and Gira-O around.

    Is there a discernible core that he tried to build around?
    The synergy between all the pokemon is pretty strong, but Kyogre/Gira-O/Dialga are there to check threats/set up rocks/block spin, among others. Mewtwo and Terrakion are the main offensive forces, moving in when the coast is clear to rip stuff open.

    What are the strong points of the team?
    Double ghost makes it easy to block spin. The pokemons' strong individual capabilities make it less painful to recover from hax/random stuff/misprediction (they're fairly independent). It's hard to set up on between Dialga being able to take everything and its mother and phaze stuff out, and just putting in enough pressure to block setup.

    What are the weak spots?
    The team doesn't have any spinners and must limit the opponent's hazards through pressure and punishing errant hazard placement. Like sweep said, the team also has trouble against faster dragons--for instance, choice scarf Palkia mashing spacial rend would be very dangerous. Even its checks would take significant damage in the process (Dialga) and then have to commit to a meteor to get Palkia out of the way.

    How could his use of certain EV/moveset twists help his team vs specific threats or archetypes?
    Froslass Icy Wind beats Deo-S and also makes Froslass more dangerous to kill because of the easier revenge kill the speed drop sets up. It's also very fast, making a wind easy to land. Froslass being immune to Extremespeed, the only priority move other than Shadow Sneak in ubers, is a big plus.

    Kyogre is standard SpecsOgre, the bringer of death, with a mix between bulk and speed. The speed EVs let it outspeed standard Dialga sets as well as fast Ttar. Like probs said, 28 more speed EVs would let it outspeed speedless Lugia, which might help a lot.

    Dialga is there to set rocks, phaze threats, and nuke things occasionally. This set is extra specially defensive and slightly speed creeped, so at the cost of power, it'll strike first and it can take almost any special hit with ease (except Aura Spheres? I haven't crunched numbers).

    I don't have anything to really say for Mewtwo. It has the coverage to hit things the other teammates can't, and it hits very hard.

    Terrakion, like mewtwo, is fairly standard. Terrakion achieves great success with just its STABs, so rock slide is filler, presumably for when Terra can't get the stone edge 1HKO? I don't know Terra's movesets outside of CC/SE too much. Toxic is a nice move to blow up wall switchins and weakens walls for an eventual sweep.

    Giratina-O hits really hard, and is bulky to boot. It also blocks spins, and phazes EKArceus. It has triple immunity, letting it easily switch in, and phaze/strike hard/set up that substitute. The speed EVs are speed creep, letting it outspeed more standard Gira-O and support Dialga- who, like earlier, were there to outspeed fast Ttar among other things, like uninvested Jirachi.

    How does he use some underrated threats to give his team an advantage?
    Froslass is the main underrated threat here. Using the easy to obtain spikes and the victory over many common leads, spikes secure the way for the rest of the team to blow through the opposition.

    Just about anything else you might want to comment on or ask about.
    Is there a better move than Rock Slide for Terra's fourth moveslot? Maybe double kick to break subs, or even taunt to stop Gira-A? These are all pretty janky, and I don't know if they'd beat Rock Slide, even, but maybe these options can be considered.

    Besides that, not much. I'm still new, so I don't actually know how the making of a team works.
  17. Scaevola

    Scaevola

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    If my memories are correct I faced this team on the PO ladder once and I lost against it...

    Froslass is a really nice idea, I rarely see it in Ubers, hovewer it maybe the best answer to Deo-S leads as Sweep mentioned above. This is an awesome hyper offense team, while I can find some threats to it most of them cannot set up (or even switch in safely) on anything due to the hard hits from Mewtwo and Kyogre.

    There is no reliable counter to RP Groudon, and if Life Orb Ho-Oh somehow manage to get a sub it can be also a pain, but this team uses the offense as defense against these threats not allowing them set up. All-out offensive Latios also can hurt something seriously, but gets revenge killed after that.

    Dialga seems to me a very important member of this team. It has to set up the rocks, and it is the only answer for opposing choiced Kyogre, Darkrai, and the only safe switch-in to scarf Palkia if it comes in on Kyogre. In addition as Sweep argued it can roar away the CM Arceus formes as well. If an opponent carries multiple of these threats (for example Kyogre, Palkia and Ghostceus in one team is possible), maybe Dialga cannot handle them at the same time.

    I really like the Toxic on Terrakion, with correct prediction it can shut down Ghostceus, Gira-O and Lugia, the most common switch-ins on Terrakion.

    My question is also related to Terrakion's fouth moveslot. I understand the use of Rock Slide, Stone Miss can be really frustrating sometimes, and Rock Slide still OHKOs Raquaza after SR. But given that I cannot see against what the SE is there. Did you consider X-Scissor for more insurance against the Lati@s and Mewtwo?
  18. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    936
    I like Froslass a lot, and the team seems solid. The main idea is of course spike stacking, a playstyle that is well suited for the Uber metagame with the prevalence of bulky spinblockers and sturdy hazard setters. The general idea is to get a couple of layers with Froslass, nab a chance to set rocks with Dialga and find a way to either start forcing switches with the dual wallbreaking core (Mewtwo+SpecsOgre) or set up a substitute with Giratina-O against slower stall oriented team. This will ultimately accumulate a lot of chip damage on the opposing team, to a point where Terrakion cleans up the mess.

    The reason for Dialga's huge investment in special bulk is mainly because it gets the ability to check Kyogre, barring specs variants. Since the team has a pretty straightforward gameplan, which is of course adaptable to an extent, things that disrupt this game plan seem to be the biggest threat to the team.

    A lead Darkrai forces probs to lead with something else, meaning he won't get spikes down as early. I'd remedy the lack of sleep fodder by putting Sleep Talk on Terrakion. Tyranitar is also problematic, but Frosslass will get on layer of spikes, which might be enough to preserve momentum. Gyro Ball Forretress can pose a bit of a threat, but Froslass can set up on it as well. If it decides to go for Toxic Spikes when Froslass Spikes, the match can go either way I feel. Other threats are Toxic Spikes itself as I mentioned, which Tentacruel will find opportunities to set up against Kyogre locked into the wrong move, Dialga can't 2HKO in the rain, as well as Terrakion locked into Close Combat. SD Ghostceus might be a threat if it manages to set up, but it generally is too weak to sweep the enitre team unless it has immense hazard support, which it won't probably have sine Froslass is great at preventing common hazard leads from getting too many hazards.

    And yeah, there is ofc specOgre that kills everything in two hits, but whatever, it is a offensive team anyway, and probs should be able to keep it at bay with constant pressure+hazards.

    I think this team examplifies the usage of an underrated threat to give the user an advantage. As the creator himself made very clear in his opening quote, he wanted to "throw the current meta" and on the ladder, you wouldn't be surprised if that statement held true in many games considering Froslass is a great anti Deoxys-S mon. About EV spreads, I am not sure about Giratina-O's one yet. I think it's a a speed creep for specs Dialga for some reason, I have seen them running 112 speed frequently (look at Poppy's team for example). Everything else seems straightforward, maybe a bit more speed on Kyogre for uninvested Lugia but it's a small nitpick at the very least.

    A summary of strong points and potential flaws:

    + Anti-meta, works great on the ladder
    + Clear, simple, yet adjustable game plan- this consistency is good on the ladder as well.

    - Game plan can be disrupted by some common threats.
    - Darkrai will pretty much make one Pokémon useless for the rest of the match- however, this is easily remedied by putting Sleep Talk on Terrakion.

    Cool team though!
  19. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,844
    ew probs team etc

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    • Is there a discernible core that he tried to build around?
      I think that the core would be a Spikes/SR/Dual Ghost/Dual Phazer core in order to weaken shit up for a Mewtwo sweep. By getting up all hazards quickly and continuously phazing the opponent, probs achieves a great advantage over the opponent, making so easy for Mewtwo or Kyogre or hell even Terrakion sweep.
    • What are the strong points of the team?
      - fast-paced
      - puts tons of pressure, making the opponent think of his next move
      - checks most threatening pokemon
      - covers most playstyles well i guess, except semi-stall but that type of teams always struggle vs it
    • What are the weak spots?
      - HAZARDS especially Toxic Spikes
      - RP Dragon Claw Groudon @ Lum Berry
      - sub hc zekrom as said
      - ghost arceus CAN be troublesome, but not an immediate threat
      - no electric resist makes scarf kyogre and palker troublesome
    • How could his use of certain EV/moveset twists help his team vs specific threats or archetypes?
      only one that i can think of is Specs Ogre to catch Ferrothorn off guard; other than that it's all p straightforward, and then again specs ogre is also rather standard although slightly faster than normal ones, making it easier for probs to deal with opposing kyogre.
    • How does he use some underrated threats to give his team an advantage?
      none underrated 9.9 I guess only Frossy because no one expects it but yeah not good enough 9.9

    i'd REALLY love to see a landorus-t here. walls groudon, wrecks subhc zekrom, grants electric immunity. scarf lando-t over terrak COULD work, but jolly DD quaza would be annoying, although it's best move at +0 is overheat, and lando-t tanks it well:
    4- SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 201-238 (63 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    i'd also use destiny bond > shadow ball. shadow ball is EXTREMELY redundant with giratina-o and dialga, both of which beat deo-s and magic bouncers.

    if you keep terrak then don't ever ditch rock slide as it's your last resort against dd quaza at 1+.

    watch out for dragons; no strong steel-type to tank them means you can lose hard, but that type of a team can't do much. sac something and revenge kill
  20. PROBLEMS

    PROBLEMS

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2012
    Messages:
    584
    Alright I'm going to pretty much just sum up the team in a few Paragraphs.

    The team itself is pretty solid, It was built as i said before to counter the current 'PO Ladder' not that this team isn't competative but if i was to use this in a more 'serious' manor I would definatly make a few changes. The ladder itself is always fast paced games with Deox-S/Ekiller/Frail HO spam so I pretty much built this team round taking as much advantage over this as possible covering the majority of the huge threats etc. Also when making this team I wanted to set myself the challenge of not using an Arceus within the building, jus coz i'm hipster as fuk.

    Frosslass

    Going into making the team I wanted to pretty much use Lass for the first time due to its ability of beating Most Deox-s who majoirty of the time struggle to get hazards up vs it due to at the same time trying to keep spikes off the field or breaking the sash, so with this idea I wanted to build a team that benefits greatly from the spikes support. For what Furai said about removing Shadow Ball I don't understand, vs HO leads like Deox-S i pretty much always Icy Wind First and proceed to finish off with Shadow Ball as they normally either taunt first turn or try and break the sash. Its built to die but if i have an opportunity wheres I can get spikes up later and keep momentum if its at its sash I will switch it out.

    Kyorge

    The Kyorge is pretty much the most changeable thing on the team, as a few of you already mentioned I'm very weak too Darkari leads and something pretty much gets put asleep (I don't like the idea of sleep talk Terrakion personally as I like too have the freedom to actually pick a move instead of trying to roll something which i need). This was an error in the team building on my part (Darkrai weakness). I used specs due to the fact I didn't really have something solid that is classed as a clear 'stall breaker', my team can't really switch into ferro very well also so hitting it for 60+ on the switch in is always lovely. I'm considering changing the specs set to like a bulky CM set which would also help me alot more vs those pesky CM Arceus. (I've already mentioned my error on the speed creep)

    Dialga

    This is pretty much the standard Dialga not really much to say its one of the backbones of my Kyorge walling core also its generically my first choice switch in for the majority of special attackers. The sets evs are pretty self explanatory just giving it a little creep for those base 90s which don't run much speed. I personally love this thing due to simpyl the way he gives no fucks and just takes hits for days alongside being able to set up rocks for my team hes a perfect member, it to a certain extend keeps standard ho-oh at bay which my team is weak too.

    Mewtwo


    I've not really used Mewtwo much as of lately, after building the team he was the 6th spot and filler of completing the team. He fits very well, his speed allows me to pretty much out speed the tier whilst getting a powerful as fuck hit off on something.
    Sweep pretty much nailed what I have to say.. I always switch around Calm Mind with Recover on this set as I'm always indecisive about what to use

    Terrakion

    Normally my go too scarfer of choice building teams around. I've seen a few comments like 'Terrakion isn't a Arceus Normal check' I digress I hardly ever bring this thing out untill late (unless i need too) game so its always nice and healthy and able to take hits. As the ladder is infested by Arceus Normal its always nice to pretty much have something that automatically threatens it out and killers it even if its set up +4 (not that the team doesn't have enough offensive pressure to pressure it from setting up that high anyway). I just love the fact this outspeed like 95% of the tier and hits like a truck, the hazards support for it are amazing with this. Pretty much helps me beat stuff that tries to set up and sweep my team.

    Gira-O

    Esports pretty much nailed the description
    Its my levite (which every team should have) and priority on this team so it fits a few more important rolls. The sub set I've fallen in love with recently it general pretty much ruins stally teams without Lugia blocking it from weak non invested attacks and status, the rocks and spikes support help it immensely, the set just general keeps offensive pressure in your momentum.


    As a few of you have mentioned the teams very weak to Darkari and I've pretty much explained my point of view in changing Kyorge, I don't like the idea of sleep talk Terrakion as I like to clearly choose a move without relying on some type of lucky sleep roll. I like how the team turned out and for any of you that 'care' about how the team performed on the PO ladder I got 1st at 1670 on GOML before I tilted the account. I also struggle vs big treats which aren't as common like; Specs Kyorge, LO Ho-Ho (In Sun) but general CM Arceus forms are delt with by Mewtwo/Dialga + Hazards.

    Just to clear things up the team was built around a Terrakion sweep/clear up late game and Mewtwo/Specs Kyroge are there to punch wholes through teams while Gira-O/Dialga are part of the phazing core to rack up hazards.

    If theres anything you'd like me to clear up just say etc..

    Thanks Melee for sharing the team.
  21. vyomov

    vyomov

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2013
    Messages:
    855
    Firstly, sorry if this sounds noobish.
    However, considering you have issues with Ferro, rather than running Terrakion, why not run Blaziken? Blaziken can protect and outspeed after boosts and can help beat Darkrai as well.
    Another option might be using Scarf Kyurem-B or Kyurem-W as wallbreakers because of their sheer power.
    Hope I don't sound too noobish
    vyomov
  22. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    936
    How is that team having problems with Ferrothorn? Specs Kyogre does way more that it likes combined with spikes, Mewtwo breaks it, Terrakion too and Giratina gets a free sub on it.
  23. PROBLEMS

    PROBLEMS

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2012
    Messages:
    584
    Pretty much this, its never really a problem to the team its just when for example I need something to switch into it. Depending on the set I got things to switch into it really, but thats just Ferro in general its a pain.
  24. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,189
    Feel free to continue discussion as I won't be able to get the next week up til tomorrow. I'll also be updating with the reward system and the winners for the first two weeks. :D
  25. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2012
    Messages:
    54
    I like this team because most people I see that use froslass (like none but whatever) are trolls

    What do think was the main/inspiring idea/goal Probs had when building this team?
    Abusing spikes is obviously the objective here, with froslass/ dual ghost/ phazers on it. Specs ogre, mewtwo, terrakion and sub shuffler tina-o are all fantastic abusers of it which makes stall cry (as if specs ogre wasn't strong enough already). Firing off strong attacks with dialga and mewtwo and kyogre breaks apart opposing defensive core pretty fast, at which point terrakion or mewtwo can clean up what remains.

    Is there a discernible core that he tried to build around?
    The dual ghost core is the most obvious one as spikes are the team's focus. Froslass is also pretty great at stopping opposing hazard setters with taunt and icy wind+ shadow ball for deo-s, while sub shuffler giratina can wear down the opposing team, revenge opposing mewtwo or whatever else with SS, and is pretty great in general.
    Then dialga for extra phazer and sr completes the core.

    What are the strong points of the team?
    This team generates a huge amount of offensive pressure, has two phazers to rack up even more damage, checks most common threats while retaining offense. This is pretty great since a lot of teams either a) have basicall zero offensive prescence but check all common threats or b) have a HUGE amount of pressure but fall flat on their face vs. some threats like ho-oh which basically means they suck and need to be discarded. Granted, many people using these teams are bad anyway but still

    What are the weak spots?
    Forretress stands out as and annoyance, if it lands a toxic on giratina it can beat it 1 on 1 then spin later vs. terrakion or dialga after a DM.Tentacruel is also a big threat because it puts pressure on the team to keep giratina healthy, also it can burn it which is bs but still true, and more than that sets up tspikes which are a big threat. Hazards in general look problematic, especially since some setters switch in on giratina fairly easily. Latios, and other dragons like zekrom are annoying since they can spam their dragon STABs easily though they can't switch in too easily. Tyranitar is an issue.

    How could his use of certain EV/moveset twists help his team vs specific threats or archetypes? Kyogre for killing ferrothorn, toxic terrakion surprised ghost ceus and tina-o switch-ins, that's about it. I guess sub tina-o can surprise worse players but that doesn't really count.

    How does he use some underrated threats to give his team an advantage?
    Specs ogre, calm dialga. Froslass is certainly underrated but it's pretty predictable.

    not much else to say besides great team

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)