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Team Study - Week 6 (Hack)

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Melee Mewtwo, May 3, 2013.

  1. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    Okay so the Smogon downtime and my own personal connection problems delayed the third week but here it is now. Brii was kind enough to quickly give me a team which has helped me out a lot getting this thread back on schedule.

    I've spoken with Furai about the rewards and decided on the winners for the weeks so far so congratulations to Sweep and Esports. You guys don't get anything just yet but if you keep it up you can be voiced on the Ubers IRC.

    One last thing, you guys have been making some really nice posts but I want to try to specify one key detail. I know things are similar but try to avoid RMT type posts. There's nothing wrong with explaining individual sets but try to use this to explain why this two (or more) Pokemon are chosen to be put together on the same team. Is there a specific Pokemon one is trying to lure out for the other? Is there strong defensive synergy between a specific pair/trio? Hopefully, these sort of questions will help you guys dig deeper at why the teambuilder decided to make the team the way he did.
  2. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Ubers Co-Leader

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    just to keep myself straight (open)
    Groudon @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Lava Plume

    Arceus-Fighting @ Fist Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 4 SAtk / 168 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Judgment
    - Recover
    - Ice Beam
    - Magic Coat

    Zekrom @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Outrage
    - Bolt Strike

    Scizor (M) @ Occa Berry
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 244 HP / 16 Atk / 248 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Toxic
    - Roost
    - Bullet Punch

    Mewtwo @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Psystrike
    - Ice Beam
    - Aura Sphere
    - Calm Mind

    Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Draco Meteor
    - Recover
    - Psyshock



    • Is there a discernible core that he tried to build around?
    The main core seems to be Mewtwo + Latios weakening each others' counters for a late game sweep. Groudon and Arceus-Fighting help out by setting up Stealth Rock and checking threats that could otherwise harass his core such as Genesect and Darkrai. Scizor is also nice to help Bri get some momentum with U-turn, provice a solid Dragon-resist, and cripple potential Mewtwo/Latios checks with Toxic. Zekrom and Scizor also form a nice Voltturn core, with Zekrom able to either scare out or kill many of Scizor's checks while simultaneously softening up Mewtwo/Latios checks.


    • What are the strong points of the team?
    -The team has a solid gameplan and uses Pokemon that complement each other nicely.
    -Good at maintaining offensive momentum.


    • What are the weak spots?
    -The team looks like it has trouble with a lot of common and threatening Pokemon without proper prediction. Specs Kyogre can come in on half the team and at worst 2HKO everything with Surf (which Latios doesn't like taking). Bri also lacks a Pokemon that likes taking strong Fire-type attacks in the sun, so Pokemon such as offensive Ho-Oh, Blaziken, and Reshiram are incredibly threatening. Jirachi also walls everything on his team aside from Groudon, who can be worn down over time, and nothing wants to be paralyzed. This is slightly less of an issue, but EKiller is also problematic if Bri's own Arceus is weakened. The team also hates Spikes, but looks like it can generally prevent them from going up with proper pressure. CM Arceus-Ghost also wrecks this team unless Scizor can get a Toxic off.


    • How does he use some underrated threats to give his team an advantage?
    Scizor helps him maintain offensive momentum while adding priority and forming a nice core with another underrated threat in Scarf Zekrom. Arceus-Fighting also acts to check threats that would otherwise trouble him such as Genesect, Darkrai, and Dialga.


    This is a good team overall, though I don't like the fact it has trouble with so many dangerous threats. If I were to use it I would probably use Latias>Latios to help with Kyogre and give Mewtwo Fire Blast to help with Jirachi. Toxic and Stone Edge also seems like good options on Arceus-Fighting to help with Ho-Oh and CM Arceus-Ghost. No Magic Coat might suck against Deo-S, but Deo-A is still gonna get up Spikes thanks to the threat of Psycho Boost and it's not too useful against anything else.
  3. Phozon

    Phozon

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    First and foremost, it's nice to see Scizor getting some love in Ubers :]. Anyways, moving on to real stuff:

    What do you think was the main/ inspiring idea?

    Truth, be told, looking first had at the team, I would go to say Scizor was the main idea of the whole team. This team greatly benefits from Scizor U-Turning. Scizor baits in a certain poke, and then U-Truns out into the appropriate check/ counter. Also, unlike Genesect, another wonderful U-Turner, Scizor get a reliable recovery move like roost, where as Gene does not. Combine the fact that Gene gets no recovery, and there may be hazards on the field, Gene will not be around as long as Scizor will be due to lack of recovery. Recovery is what allows Scizor to stay around longer in the battle, as opposed to Gene who dies faster. Another U-Turner (though less common) like Jirachi doesn't get the instant recovery that Scizor does. Wish requires 2 turns which in that time, the opponent could take one of those turns to go out into a check/ counter and threaten out Rachi thus making it forced to switch and lose it's recovery, unless it is running protect.

    Is there a discernible core that he tried to build around?

    I'm guessing there is a Zek/ Scizor offencive VoltTurn core. This team reminds me a bit of Jamvads VoltTun team except where Jamvad had Gene, Bri has Scizor.

    What are some of the strong points?

    Great at keeping momentum. The VoltTurn core has great synergy. There are also a lot of custom sets which always have the surprise factor. This team also has a very gimmicky, yet strong way of keeping hazards off the field. Thanks to the VoltTurn synergy, it makes it hard for opponents to bring in their spike stacker/ Stealth Rocker with out letting Bri have switch initiative into his A-Fighting to bounce back hazard.

    What are some of the weaknesses?

    Very weak to hazards. While he does have magic coat on his A-Fighting it still does not take away the fact that once a hazard of any kind is up, it's there to stay. Spike stacking can become a huge problem for this team especially because, again, once hazzards are up, he has no way to get rid of them. Toxic Spikes and Toxic in general will also become a problem for this team, especially for a poke like Groudon, who you generally want around for a long time in order to win the weather wars if there is one. His team also lacks a way to phase out threats. While he does have Scizor to Toxic it, it will take sometime to wear it down. At +2, A-Ghost has a very high chance to 2HKO his Scizor w/ Focus Blast. If the opponent does manage to talk down Scizor, something on his team will get hit very hard by a STAB Judgment. Also, Fire types are a massive problem. Like someone said, Blaziken, Ho-Oh, and Reshiram are all massive threats, especially Reshi since it has perfect Dual STAB. Also, Kyurem-W is a bit of a problem as well, even though Scizor can live 2 Specs Dracos, if the opponent predicts properly, and can rid of Scizor, it can run rapid on his team. Standard DD Rayquaza can cause a few problem should it get 1 DD up for it now be able to out speed Bri's whole team. Darkri is also a problem due to the fact that nothing on Bri's team really wants to take a sleep.

    How can certain EVs/ movesets help this team?

    The only thing I could think to do, would be to put Sleep Talk on Zek, to help w/ Darkria. And if hazards become a major issue, it might be time to look into a good rapid spinner :/. Also, Lava Plum on Groudon is not such a bad idea. It give a nice coverage as well as that nice 30% burn rate to help cripple physical threats like E-Killer and other Zeks

    How does he use underrated threats to give him an advantage?

    Many people would not see Scizor as a large threat, especially in a tier with pokes like Giritina, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Reshiram, Arceus, and more. But the fact that he was able to make a team to help support this poke takes it from being just "Scizor" to a major threat the give this team very high momentum and a priority user. A-Fighting is also a poke that very few people are ready for, especially one that uses Magic Coat. This allows Bri to try to avoid hazards from being laid on his side of the field.

    Final thoughts

    Over all, this team is a cool VoltTurn offencive team. While it does have quite a few flaws, with a little more revision and testing, this team can turned into a very deadly VoltTurn team.
  4. Sweep

    Sweep (makeup)
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    The first thing that struck me about this team was the use of Magic Coat Arceus-Fighting, an outstanding anti-lead. With good prediction, Fightceus can hold Deoxys-S to one layer of hazards (at the most) while bouncing back either Stealth Rock or Spikes. For example, on turn one the opponent will attempt to set up a hazard while you Magic Coat it right back in their face. Turn two they'll try again, hoping you opt for an attacking move. On turn three, perhaps your opponent becomes flustered and decides to attack with Fire Punch...if you predict this and use Ice Beam, your opponent will likely be held to 1 hazard, meaning the opponent will be going 6-5 for the rest of the match. The same logic applies to Custap Forretress and Froslass, though the former can spin the hazard away while you attack with Judgment. The one hazard lead that Fightceus cannot deal with is Sash Deoxys-A with Psycho Boost; Zekrom can lead against that and Volt Switch to Scizor (don't lead with Scizor against it in case the Deoxys-A carries a Fire move).

    Arceus-Fighting also makes for a nice lead against Darkrai. Scarf Darkrai cannot trick its scarf onto Arceus, so either it will be put to sleep via its own Dark Void or it will fire off a weak attack move. Lum Berry Darkrai leads do not often carry Substitute, so feel free to use Magic Coat against that as well. The given EV's allow Fightceus to outrun threats such as Rayquaza and kill it with Ice Beam. Likewise, the bulk allows Fightceus to beat Extremekiller one on one assuming the former is not near full health & has accrued a Swords Dance boost. Magic Coat Arceus is rarely expected, and the two forms that do occasionally run Magic Coat are Arceus-Ghost and Arceus-Grass from my experience, so the first time Princess Brii uses this team against an opponent the odds of Magic Coat paying off are very high. As the opponent will expect Magic Coat the next time they face this team, Brii can always play around that by leading Scizor against Deoxys-S. Against other hazard leads, such as Careful Groudon, Fightceus can always use Ice Beam as the opponent predicts Magic Coat and attempts to attack you (Recover allows Fightceus to heal off damage done by hazard setters, which apart from Deoxys-A are usually not threatening to it).

    The versatility in what Princess Brii can lead with is a strong point for this team. In addition to Arceus-Fighting, Brii can lead with Scarf Zekrom, Scizor, or even Latios is needed. Scizor holds Deoxys-S and Sash Froslass to one hazard while Zekrom can use Volt Switch or Bolt Strike against Kyogre. Because this team lacks Rapid Spin support, holding the opponent to one hazard at most is critical and the combination of Bullet Punch, Volt Switch and Magic Coat Fightceus should be able to do the job.

    There are two notable cores that I can detect. One of them, VoltTurn Scizor+Zekrom, has already been dissected and I really don't have anything to add to what has been said about it. The other core, the wallbreaking/cleaning tandem of Latios and Mewtwo, is what I would like to focus on. Latios already has a ridiculous 458 special attack when factoring in Soul Dew. After one Calm Mind, Draco Meteor can nuke almost anything, including stuff that resists it. Therefore, walls that Mewtwo may have trouble breaking through (such as specially defensive Giratina-A) can be nuked by Latios. Because Latios has Recover, it can heal itself throughout the match vs. stall teams that think they can wear it down via weather/status/phazing, meaning it can attempt to wallbreak again and again. Once Latios has broken down walls, such as defensive Arceus forms, Mewtwo can come in and clean up the mess Latios left behind. Without Latios, Mewtwo might not be able to beat threats such as Bold Kyogre, stopping it from cleaning. After a Calm Mind, Mewtwo becomes less susceptible to being revenge killed by special attackers, and both Scizor and Groudon can switch in on physical scarfers such as Salamence. In summary, Mewtwo is Princess Bri's top win condition, and it does its job extremely well if Latios can break down walls.

    The major strengths are this team are as follows...

    1. Ability to prevent multiple hazards. Team will have a very hard time setting up more than one, though teams using Deoxys-D have a chance at getting both SR and Spikes if it comes in at the right opportunities throughout the match. 4 pokemon on this team threaten Tentacruel, 3 pokemon can combine to hold Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A to one, and Custap Forry can be played around in a way that it can only get up one hazard. This can be done via either Magic Coat or by using an attacking move, such as Groudon's Earthquake, with does not bring it to the <25% range needed to activate Custap, ensuring it can be killed off the next turn. Because only one pokemon on this team is immune to Spikes, and only 2 are immune to Toxic Spikes (though Groudon shakes them off once with Lum Berry), the ability to limit hazards is vital to this this.

    2. Multiple quality leads. Already discussed, but having versatility in what you can lead with is a nice trait to have.

    3. A quality win condition that is given strong support. Mewtwo is not only given a wallbreaker teammate in Latios, but also gets a reliable SR setter in Groudon and multiple switchins to Scarfers which otherwise threaten it.

    4. Ways to deal with the vast majority of common threats. Physical Arceus forms are dealt with by Groudon, Scarf Zekrom and its strong physical bulk, and in the cases of Arceus-Normal and Arceus-Steel, Fightceus. CM Arceus are Toxic's by Scizor, which can take one Fire move if the weather is Rain due to Occa Berry. Kyogre is beaten by Scarf Zekrom unless it switches in one Ice Beam, and all other weather setters are damaged heavily by Fightceus. Palkia dies 1-1 vs. Latios. Rayquaza will get no opportunities to set up. Sub Darkrai might sleep something, but Scizor beats it afterwards. This team excels at checking almost all "S" and "A" rank threats.

    5. Multiple ways to win. Sure, Mewtwo is probably the most common path to victory, but Scizor, Zekrom, and Latios are all threats that have the potential to strike very fast and very hard.

    Weaknesses that I detect with this this...

    Swift Swimmers. Kabutops, Omastar, Ludicolo, and especially Kingdra can all clean if the weather war is lost (and Groudon's chances of winning this are reduced as it holds Lum Berry instead of Leftovers). Only Fightceus can take on Kingdra's attacks and it resists Scizor's priority. Omastar is an absolute nightmare, revenging almost everything while threatening to Shell Smash if you try to spoil its rain with Physically Defensive Groudon (which does not like Omastar at all). Fightceus cannot take Hydro Pump in rain if its health is below 75%, and Latios dies to Ice Beam at approximately 60% health or below. Mewtwo is outrun and OHKO'ed by Hydro Pump. Ludicolo is less threatening than Omastar and Kingdra, but still hits hard while also resisting Bullet Punch and Groudon's main STAB. Finally, Kabutops is tough but Fightceus and Scizor handle it better than they can handle Omastar, and it is the only Ubers-level Swift swimmer Groudon doesn't mind switching in on. Rayquaza can be used over Latios to handle all of these threats as Life Orb Outrage kills all of them after Stealth Rock. However, Rayquaza is Stealth Rock weak and does not have access to a recovery move, limiting the number of times in can switch in to wallbreak. Because of this, Latios might be a better option to deal with stall than Rayquaza even though the latter checks Swift Swimmers and can threaten Steels with its Fire move of choice.

    2. Lack of phazers. Say that a physical Silk Scarf Extremekiller comes in at full health on a 75% health Groudon. What can be done to prevent a sweep at that point. Groudon cannot 2HKO Arceus with Earthquake and it has no phazing move. Later in the game, if Groudon and Fightceus have taken some damage, Arceus can find an opportunity vs. 5 Pokemon on this team to set up on. Admittedly, this team handles EK well early, when Brii's pokemon are at full health, but if after some damage dangerous set-up sweepers can clean and I am not confident that there is quite enough offensive pressure to stop Arceus from setting up mid to late game.

    Lugia can cripple something with Thunder Wave or Toxic if it is well-played, but Stealth Rock and Zekrom will greatly limit it. If Zekrom is dead, this team will hate Lugia. Therefore, Zekrom should be conserved if possible if the opponent possesses a Lugia. This is a distant #3 in terms of team weaknesses though.

    Overall, I like the team. Magic Coat Fightceus and Occa Berry Scizor are sure to surprise to the opponent and Princess Brii's win condition is surrounded well.
  5. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
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    Sorry about that Melee Mewtwo. It seems we both forgot about this!

    Anyways, the team was built around using Scizor to its fullest potential. Scizor can check Lati@s, Darkrai, Mewtwo, and Arceus-Ghost with a Specially Defensive spread and Toxic while also being a fantastic anti-lead to Deoxys-A leads with Occa Berry. I added Zekrom as a partner since Scizor + Zekrom seemed like a cool core. Scarf Zekrom is also a decent check to CM Arceus, so Scizor + Zekrom seemed to be able to check almost all varients of CM Arceus. Besides that, Zekrom also has a few other things going for it. Zekrom covers Scizor's nasty Fire-type weakness and can also be a secondary Water-resist which I find important to cover Kyogre. Scarf Zekrom isn't the best against all set-up sweepers due to its abysmal speed, so I figured I needed a good check to many of them. Dragon Dance Rayquaza and Salamence, RP Groudon, etc. all were pretty major threats. Primarily Physical, it seemed like Groudon would fit perfectly. Having a solid Stealth Rock user and Zekrom check while giving my team Sun-support and reducing the power of Rain-abusers seemed too good to pass up. As of now, my team was rather weak to Kyogre and lacked a Ground-type immunity which I find essential in offensive-teams for opposing Groudon. Latios seemed like the best fit. I used my favorite set, Calm Mind + Draco Meteor, because early game you can nuke while late-game you can Calm Mind and push with Psyshock. If you really need to break a wall, Calm Mind + Draco Meteor can work as well. This set also gives Latios reliable recovery which 4 Attacks does not grant. After looking at my team, I seemed rather weak to a few things. I didn't have a foolproof Mixed Rayquaza check, opposing Darkrai were annoying, and Extremekiller killed me. I couldn't particularly pressure Ferrothorn with any Pokemon in a SUN team (lol), so I added a Magic Coat Arceus-Fighting to act like a utility of sorts and a Pokemon to pressure several Pokemon. The last choice was the hardest. To be honest, I wanted an offensive Pokemon to pressure the opposing team while being able to break stall. Mewtwo could act as an offensive partner and kept offensive momentum on my team. It also gives a reliable speedy Pokemon to revenge kill weakened CM Arceus and Darkrai.

    Regarding the changes listed: Fire Blast Mewtwo has been working out extraordinarily well and I really like the idea of a phazing move on Groudon. Hopefully the team was unique enough to bring in some discussion. Thanks for all the constructive criticism everyone!
  6. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    (No problem Brii, it was my fault) I'm really sorry for the massive delay, for some reason I had a massive brain fart and thought that Brii's team only got 1 post. (so I left the thread to die, oops) Anyways, the winner for week 3 is Sweep, again. This week we have a team from Furai.
  7. levenl00s

    levenl00s

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    Seems I'm first, heh...little activity here :(

    As far as I can see, we have an (Hyper?)Offensive Sun team at our hands. It looks solid and good at maintaining a lot of pressure with all these hard-hitting and with the exception of Darkrai, kinda bulky pokes.

    Team and Strategy
    The main strategy this team has seems to be either a Terrakion or Ekiller sweep, in which Darkrai helps immensely by taking out troublesome ghost types. This core is further supplemented by a rather hard-hitting mixed Latias to create holes in the opposing team and checking Kyogre. Then I see a Groudon, not as the important sun bringer (because Furai's team does not get any benefits from sun), but as an offensive Stealth Rock setter, while also being able to kinda check Ekiller. Then Giratina-O is left, to prevent spinningand having some extra priority, his further role i cannot see. What does he check guys, I'm wondering? And what's with the EV spread?

    Strong Points
    As I said, this team seems to be very adept at keeping pressure up, with incredible offensive force with nice bulk. Offensive teams in particular will be having a lot of trouble with the Darkrai/Terrakion/Ekiller core. I don't see any big threat left unchecked, I like how Groudon and super speedy Ekiller work together to kill off any physical threat, while Latias tanks a lot of special hits and when the time is right, Ekiller/Terrakion are there to revenge.

    Weak Points
    What kind of worries me is the weakness to Specs Kyogre, who 2HKO's Latias on the switch (and I imagine this is what you will be sending in to it almost all of the time). When Latias is gone, there is a huge dent in Kyogre, but the heavy special attackers that rain brings will walk right over you. How is this dealt with?

    I'd like to remark that this team looks very much like my first ever Ubers team (that Im still i'n love with <3) and while that team got me high on the ladder, it just seemed to be missing something. Will try this out, it looks way more solid!
  8. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    Groudon @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Fire Punch

    Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 156 HP / 248 Atk / 12 SAtk / 92 Spd
    Lonely Nature
    - Substitute
    - Dragon Tail
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Darkrai @ Leftovers
    Trait: Bad Dreams
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Dark Void
    - Substitute
    - Nasty Plot
    - Dark Pulse

    Arceus @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast

    Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 152 HP / 160 SAtk / 192 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Roost
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Grass Knot

    Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Sleep Talk
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - X-Scissor



    To me,the concept behind this team is pulling off a late game Extreme Killer sweep by luring in it's bulky steel checks i.e Skarmory,Forretress,Ferrothorn and then KOing them with Fire Blast in conjunction with using the bulky ghost types as set up fodder for Darkrai.Furai uses Groudon as his SR setter serving multiple roles of an offensive check to physical attackers,checking weather sweepers like Exca and Kabutops along with helping combat Rain and Sand.Latias helps mitigate the Kyogre weakness and Scarf Terrakion to act as a revenge killer and Ekiller check.Giratina-O is an interesting choice since this team doesn't use spikes support.However I assume it is there to keep SR on opposing side when they have a Ho-oh as it seems to be a massive threat to Furai's team without rocks up.Another key role of Giratina-O is checking Terrakion as it can potentially clean up Furai's team late game along with serving as a second bulky water resist.He also runs HP Fire on Gira-O to further aid the strategy of luring out bulky steels and KOing them to help Ekiller sweep.

    The initial core seems to be SD NormalCeus+SubNP Darkrai ,two sweepers that can threaten or set up on a good portion of each others counters while acting as solid win conditions.From there,Furai added pokes to support them and checking notable threats of the metagame.

    Strong Points:

    -Using two sweepers as win conditions that can threaten/set up on each other's checks
    -Using lesser used sets on his two sweepers,Ekiller and Darkrai, allowing them to overcome some common methods to deal with them.For example,Fire Blast Ekiller can blow through teams who rely on skarm to check it.A lot of players rely on letting something sleep and then sending out the check to deal with Darkrai.This can be abused by Subing as the opponent goes to his sleep fodder ,sleeping it and then setting up NP while keeping sub intact.
    -The team being offensive in nature while still maintaining a decent defensive backbone.
    -Checks to most of the major uber threats like Ekiller,Kyogre,CMCeus,Groudon,Mewtwo etc.
    -Having two priority moves.

    Weak Points:

    -Lack of hard hitters,while Furai has pokes with decent offensive presence,he lacks hard hitters or wall breakers making it hard for him to break defensive teams.Arceus-Steel+Physically Defensive Giratina-A defensive core seems to wall his entire teams while possibly wearing Furai's pokes down with hazards.
    -Absence of additional hazards or Rapid Spin along with the previous point give this team a hard match up vs stall.
    -Lack of a steel type for dragons,it could be a pain since bulky offensive teams like this somewhat rely's on taking hits along with keeping up offensive pressure.
    -Being a somewhat vulnerable to Ho-oh.

    Overall,this is a very good team.Each poke has it's own role in this team that is crucial for executing the win condition.Thus any changes to mitigate the weak points might lower the general performance.However,I feel a Mixed or a SubCM Giratina-O is worth testing over the current set.
  9. Furai

    Furai a Ωdefender // a αguardian
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    I think that Bryce summed it up pretty well. I built this team for my SPL finals game versus Donkey (where I got countered so hard by rain tran) and I decided to change Shadow Force to Fire Blast later on as I knew Skarmory was a dick and I didn't have Spikes.

    I based this team off one of Blim's. We worked together on the team and this is the creation. The core is indeed Arceus and Darkrai; Arceus is only stopped by Ghost-types, which are easily handled by Darkrai. Latias is there to check Kyogre, although I really don't know why haven't I even considered Latios instead; still does the job fairly okay, and maintains such a high pressure. More importantly, Latias checks and beats Fighting Arceus with Psyshock which would otherwise would wall me to infinity (why I didn't pick Palkia). Giratina-O checks Terrakion and Groudon, and also surprises hazard setters, which somewhat compromises for the lack of a Rapid Spinner. People got so used to Earthquake SubShuffle (which would help with Heatran I guess) that I decided to surprise them. 12 SAtk EVs ensure the OHKO on Forretress in sun. Terrakion checks Rayquaza and opposing Extreme Killer and Groudon sets up SR and hits like a truck. Nothing else to add.

    As said team honestly struggles the most with hazards, but I guess smart play and utilizing the many surprises the team has on the right team is the key to beating them. Arceus-Steel can be annoying yeah, but I don't think much can be done. Just catch it on the switch with Groudon, Giratina, Arceus, or put it to sleep with Darkrai. Focus Blast Darkrai might help with this too. Terrakion can finish weakened ones.

    Thanks for the responses!
  10. Donkey

    Donkey

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    Giratina-O rolls over your team now that it can freely switch in on Arceus and Terrakion
  11. Furai

    Furai a Ωdefender // a αguardian
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    lol yeah, I guess you just need to break its sub with like Latias or Giratina and then work from there
  12. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    Okay so back to good teams, we have Faint giving us his team for week 5 and Bryce as the winner of week 4.
  13. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
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    Just a couple of nitpicks about my team:

    Groudon's Speed IV of 30 is a typo. It should be 31.
    Ho-Oh is missing 4 EV's which would be added to defense.

    For a general overview of my team:

    In all honesty it's pretty much a standard sun core + Shiftry. I wanted to try a weather abuser when I saw a user mention Victreebel. Since my preferred weather is sun, I decided on Shiftry since it's dark STAB was really appealing to me. I like think of it as a mon similar to Hyreidon, which I've also had a lot of success with in the past while using a similar team. I rarely struggle to win weather wars (especially against rain) so Shiftry is really able to shine with it's unique STABs. But I wouldn't exactly say I built the team around Shiftry, since as many of you know sun teams often follow a standard 4 mon base core, with the player deciding on the remaining 2.

    I do have a glaring weakness to one mon in particular. I'm hoping someone picks up on it. It shouldn't be too hard to notice.
  14. levenl00s

    levenl00s

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    Cool team! This is not gonna be too long, since there is a lot of standard stuff on it.

    The core seems to be Groudon/Latias/Arceus-Ghost, which handles a lot of threats nicely. It is complemented by scarf Ho-Oh, an uncommon, but very powerful scarfer. It's Punishment helps against set-up sweepers, while it hits very hard in the sun. With Ho-Oh comes the desire for hazard control, which is fulfilled by Forretress. Then there is the super rare threat Shiftry, which always has had my interest. It gives the team some much appreciated speed. Not gonna pretend I know anything about Shiftry in Ubers.

    A lot of movesets/spreads are pretty standard, with the exception of the Latias set. I like the use of Thunder Wave, to maim the usual switch-ins, such as Ho-Oh(!) and Genesect. The defensive spread is to counter Kyogre a little better, while still outrunning Palkia. This makes the speed tie with other Lati@s impossible, but Faint has a nice switch-in in Ho-Oh.

    What this team does pretty well is win the weather war, Kyogre doesn't like to come in on much except Groudon and Forry and you have a counter in Latias. Tyranitar has an easier time switching in, but stuff like Gyro Ball from Forretress hurts. It's also nice to have multiple win conditions in CMGhostceus, Shiftry and Ho-Oh.

    Well, on the huge weakness you were talking about, that should absolutely be opposing Ho-Oh, in particularly SubRoost ones. A Ho-Oh could come in on Shiftry, Arceus, Forretress and on this Groudon set (normally a big No-Oh but here it can) and set up a sub to avoid a revenge kill from your own Ho-Oh and paralysis from Latias and from there start destroying shit. It seems to be relievable a little by putting Stone Edge on Groudon, but that isn't a perfect solution obviously.

    All in all, a nice team with a less-than-Charizard used threat (don't use this as an indication for anything ever please). Good job, Faint!
  15. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

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    The focal point of this team appears to be shiftry, though with both ho-oh and arceus here a shiftry sweep is certainly not the only win condition. The core is a relatively standard sun core of groudon+ ho-oh+ Kyogre check (latias) +spinblocker(arceus). Though this is relatively standard, it is still very effective, and with shiftry and forretress thrown into the mix, going against this team will often be an uphill battle.

    wall of text coming up.

    Show Hide

    Groudon sets up sun and stealth rock, both vital for such a team, and can do so from turn one while matching up well against common leads like kyogre (unless groudon is faster), since it sets up sun immediately to nerf kyogre and can then switch to latias, custap forretress, and tyranitar. If an opposing darkrai leads, ho-oh can absob sleep and then bash it unless it sleep talks a punishment. Deoxys-s is not an issue with forretress which beats most giratina-o one-on-one, so these three ensure the team is almost never at an immediate disadvantage. Groudon also decently checks rayquaza, otherwise a massive pain for shftry and the team as a whole, and can phase out other sweepers like extreme killer arceus. Groudon can also manhandle jirachi, which shiftry struggles with and that ho-oh can’t switch in on because it fears paralysis. Groudon can also lure arceus-grass and dent it with fire punch or phase it with roar, which is another shiftry chack weakened. With leftovers and a defensive EV spread, groudon can also switch in consistently through the match to refresh sun.

    Forretress is another crucial team supporter. Rapid spin clears off entry hazards which ho-oh in particular appreciates, which lets the team function much better, while beating most giratina-o with gyro ball. Forretress also sets up spikes, which is extremely helpful for winning weather wars, wearing down the opposing team for a late game sweep, and is particularly useful since most of the team has either significant offensive presence or phasing to force switches. Forretress can also support its team in an unexpected way by using its slow volt switch to let a team mate come in for free, which is important for momentum, and because shiftry would be extremely difficult to switch in for free otherwise.

    Arceus-Ghost complements forretress nicely by spinblocking to keep hazards up and by forcing switches to abuse the hazards that are likely to be on the opponent’s side of the field. This helps a lot with ho-oh, possibly the largest threat to this team. It, like shiftry, is a powerful cleaner later on in the game once the opposing team has been sufficiently weakened. Flamethrower is used over focus blast to get rid of opposing ferrothorn, forretress, skarmory and jirachi more easily, and lack of focus blast isn’t too problematic since most of the things it loses coverage on, like extreme killer arceus and tyranitar, are handled decently by groudon or another team member. Arceus’s role as a sweeper and spinblocker may be simple, but it’s still an important part of the team’s strategy.

    Latias is here as a kyogre counter, phazer, and spreader of paralysis. It has no trouble switching into kyogre multiple times, firing off a thunder wave/ roar (and potentially paralyzing a genesect switch-in), and recovering off all the damage. Thunder wave also cripples mewtwo and various arceus forms. Dragon pulse wards off dragons like rayquaza and palkia, and is a consistent STAB move. Lack of hidden power fire might seem odd, after all, won’t ferrothorn and forretress be an issue? I think Faint chose to forgo a coverage move because usually the only thing ferrothorn and forretress to is give ho-oh, arceus, his forretress, or shiftry a free switch-in. It is sometimes more beneficial to leave them alive since those two are some of the few things shiftry can set up on, and they also allow ho-oh and arceus to come in and lay waste to the opposing team.

    Ho-oh is here to A) Check dangerous sweepers like most CM arceus forms, darkrai, CM lati@s, shaymin-s, and reshiram, and B) to break apart the opposing team with its powerful STAB moves. Despite lacking a jolly nature, it can also beat deoxys-a one-on-one, which is always a plus. It takes down arceus forms that use bulkier spreads, like grass and fighting, which lets shiftry be more effective later on, and it can also lure out kyogre and nail it with brave bird, helping keep sun up for longer.

    Shiftry has an easy time sweeping after the support from the rest of the team is factored in. Arceus keeps and entry hazards set up by forretress and groudon up to wear down the opposing team, and groudon’s sunlight is obviously the key to it’s success. With any opposing weather inducers gone late game, shiftry can set up a nasty plot on something like forretress and sweep what remains of the opponent’s team.


    The teams strong points are…


    • Multiple win conditions, all of which are supported well.
    • Hazard control with two entry hazards, a spinblocker and a spinner which helps give this team an edge over stall teams and really any team.
    • Checks to the majority of common threats
    • The ability to force lots of switches and rack up loads of damage via hazards.
    • Ways to win weather wars (checks to all the weather inducers, ho-oh’s luring kyogre and brave birding it, hazards)
    • The ability to control the match’s tempo with three strong sweepers that supply constant offensive pressure, two roar users to mess up the opponent’s momentum, and one volt switch user.

    The weaknesses are:

    • Ho-oh. It really doesn’t care about any attack faint’s team throws at it except brave bird and can fire off powerful attacks. It hate stealth rock as much as ever, though.
    • A well-played dialga seems like it can cause problems, especially the offensive SR set.
    • Mixed rayquaza can puch hole pretty easily, but it is frail and gets outsped by three pokemon, making it a bit less of an issue.

    All in all, I really like how this team uses an uncommon threat in a standard core, and uses underrated threats like twave latias and flamethrower arceus ghost and scarf ho-oh to put itself at an advantage the majority of the time. Nice team!
  16. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
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    You both got my glaring weakness correct which was Ho-oh. I often relied on offensive pressure to keep it in check which is why you see moves like Volt Switch on Forretress. I figure that as long as I can play smart and keep it at a distance with support moves such as Roar and Thunder Wave, when the time comes to actually battle it I'm in a relatively good position. Still, substitute sets were often difficult to beat and many times I've had to sacrifice my own Ho-oh just to bring my opponents down.

    You were both very accurate in terms of describing how my team works. First and foremost, my goal was to keep the weather in my favor, which is something I find pretty easy to do. I generally just use my knowledge of the metagame and of my opponent to win the weather war, but I make sure I have defensive checks to mons such as Kyogre (Latias) in case things don't go as planned. But despite my very bulky spread, it's not really for Kyogre. I really wanted to use Roar on Latias, and since I'm not a fan of the mono attacking set I decided to try something new. I found success with Thunder Wave in the past so I figured I could pair them together. The end result turned out much better than I expected. Roar allows me to phaze out Extremekiller which commonly try to setup on Latias, as well as relatively easy checks to Latias on the switch such as Ho-oh, which is a huge help if SR is down. Thunder Wave works similarly.

    Secondly came my goal to build around Shiftry. I always say I'm capable of winning with a Sun team of 5, because in all honesty I often find the 6th mon to be somewhat niche in it's role. I wanted to challenge myself and decided upon Shiftry after a discussion on Venusaur in Ubers. The problem is, sweeping with Shiftry is very difficult. It doesn't hit very hard and I was only able to do considerable damage if I was playing an opponent who was not very good. This is why I decided to use gimmick, yet effective mons such as scarf Ho-oh and Roar + Thunder Wave Latias. Since I knew Shiftry would not guarantee a win like some of it's Swift Swim counterparts (Kingdra, Omastar, Kabutops etc), I needed other win conditions like you both described nicely, and so I opted for Arceus-Ghost and Ho-oh.

    That's all I really have to say. Again, I just consider it standard sun with the 6th mon of your choice. However, the team was more successful than I originally thought it would be. And Brave Bird you were smart to point out Rayquaza as a threat, since I do remember losing to one a few times. And again, you were both correct on my thoughts and uses for each mon, so great job to the both of you.
  17. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    Thank you Faint for responding and Brave Bird Spam for your response. (meaning you won)

    As for next week and future weeks, I've decided to increase the gap between teams and not attempt to push a constant stream of activity because it simply doesn't work. I'm going to allow long intermissions until a nice new team comes up that is worthy of discussion (and can serve as a meaningful example). That said I did have another team lined up for "this week" so I'll likely post that soon.

    Edit: Okay so I decided to put up Hack's team now for analysis/critique since he gave it to me a while back.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
  18. superstar

    superstar

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    • What do think was the main/inspiring idea/goal Hack had when building this team?
    This team is designed around a sweep by Tailwind Ho-oh, with a secondary sweeper in Extremekiller
    • Is there a discernible core that he tried to build around?
    There are really two cores to the team. The offensive core consists of Ekiller/Ho-Oh/Palkia, which together can handle nearly every threat in the game. Ho-oh and Arceus really work together to help take out each other's counters: The Giratinas and Hippowdon are worn down by repeated Brave Birds, Kabutops fails to outspeed Ho-oh under Tailwind, and Skarmory can't take Ho-oh at all under sun. Palkia provides a special attacker that can pivot switch after Ho-oh Tailwinds to threaten most of the metagame.

    The hazards core consists of Groudon and Cloyster. Usually Cloyster will lead, although against Support Dialga Hack's Groudon is a better choice since it can OHKO with Earthquake. Cloyster can threaten most leads by breaking Deo-A's sash, Shell Smashing and then setting up Spikes, and Spinning away hazards while threatening to KO the Gira the other team is using to spinblock.
    • What are the strong points of the team?
    This team does a great job of setting up hazards and then grabbing and keeping offensive momentum. Kyogre barely has a chance to do anything against the speed and physical offense that Hack's team offers, allowing sun to stay up. Genesect stops Darkrai, Mewtwo and the Latis from being a threat by constantly U-turning and giving momentum. The team can threaten most offensive archetypes and has enough power and hazards to blast it's way through stall.
    • What are the weak spots?
    Hack lacks a spinblocker, so his hazards are easy to spin away, although the opposing team will usually give a free set up chance to do so. Rain Stall seems a bit worrisome, as something like Giratina + Phys Def Kyogre + Chansey can do rather decently against his offensive core; although it still can be worn down with smart play + Hazards, a smart spin can spell the end. Rain offensive is also an issue since Palkia isn't a true Kyogre counter and he is your only answer to fast, rain-boosted water attacks. A Dialga fast enough to outspeed Groudon and get rocks down will also spell trouble, since Cloyster can't really effectively spin against Will-O-Wisp Giratinas or Arceus-Ghost, and Ho-oh doesn't appreciate rocks down. Palkia can do a number on most members of this team, and relying on the speed tie is risky. Opposing Ho-Oh with Defense EVs will be very worrisome if the opponent has time to get a spin in. All of these threats can be beaten with suffecient offensive pressure, however. Offensive Excadrill and Kabutops can sweep easily if they win the weather war. Tyranitar in the lead slot is a threat, since Cloyster can't touch it and rocks will go up.
    • How could his use of certain EV/moveset twists help his team vs specific threats or archetypes?
    Tailwind on Ho-Oh is the biggest one, making it an incredibly dangerous sweeper with one turn of set-up, and is rarely seen and thus unexpected. Brick Break on Ekiller is unusual and chosen to deal with Ferrothorn better, since the whole team bar Ho-oh is walled by it. It also helps with Tyranitar a bit, and most importantly gives a weapon against opposing Ekillers. Earth Plate Groudon helps his team deal with Dialga better, and Rock Slide is really only used against Ho-oh and thus is more reliable than Stone Edge. Finally, Genesect has two special attacks, giving up Explosion in order to help the team deal with Ferro/Forry and Rayquazza better simulataneously.
    • How does he use underrated threats to his advantage?
    Cloyster is the biggest one. It gives his team huge momentum and hazards from Turn 1 by it's STAB Icicle Spear, Shell Smash, and Spikes.
    • Just about anything else you might want to comment on or ask
    Really interesting team. I'd rather have Explosion on Genesect honestly, any reason for not having it other than to take out Forry? You have Ho-oh and Palkia, so Ferro/Forry don't seem to be too much of a problem.
  19. Sweep

    Sweep (makeup)
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    I have used this team many times, so please do not proclaim me the winner this week if I happen to make a good post (and I might blow it anyway).

    This team was built around a Groudon+Palkia+Ho-Oh core, since the three compliment each other so well. Groudon can kill off the incredibly annoying support Dialga in one Earthquake while checking physical Arceus forms that might give the other two some trouble. It also sets the sun Ho-Oh loves so much. Ho-Oh destroys mons like Latias, Palkia, Grass Arceus, and others that Groudon and Palkia often struggle with. Finally, Palkia is an excellent check to Kyogre and with Lustrous Orb, had the chance to freely switch moves and handle stall teams once opposing Arceus-Grass or Chansey has been removed by Ho-Oh. The main goal, as superstar pointed out, was to allow Life Orb Ho-Oh to rampage. If Hack wins the weather war, Ho-Oh can take hits, hit extremely hard, and sweep with Tailwind.

    This team will rarely struggle with Stall, as the team is too powerful/overwhelming for it. Everything on Hack's team can hit hard except Lum EKiller (heck even Cloyster can destroy all Giratina Formes except Physically Defense Giratina-A after just one smash!). Cloyster also finds a fairly easy time doing its job vs. stall as the opponent won't put enough pressure on this team to prevent it from coming in. I actually like how this team matches up better with Rain than opposing Sun, since Kyogre will have a whale of a time (hue) accomplishing much vs. Palkia, and if it tries to come in on Ho-Oh or Groudon it will be hit brutally hard. Opposing Sun are more troublesome, as I will get to in a second. But this team has good power, speed, and checks almost every threat in the game.

    Unfortunately, Offensive Groudon make this team sad. After a Rock Polish, everything on Hack's team dies unless Hack's Groudon is at full health. Bear in mind that Lum Ekiller isn't strong enough to do a lot of damage to Groudon, even at +2, because its Extremespeed isn't boosted by Silk Scarf. I recognize that this team needs Genesect+Lum EK to beat lead Darkrai but the power loss is significant. Lum EKiller also struggles to beat opposing Arceus formes. Because Hack lacks a spinblocker, Lum EK will often fail to get sweeps it normally could get with Silk Scarf late game because that power loss is really significant. Another issue is a well-played Darkrai. If the opponent saves Darkrai for later on in the match, it will incapacitate something unless it misses Dark Void. Finally, weather sweepers such as Shiftry and Kabutops will be very difficult to handle.

    The EP Groudon set is unusual but is used to kill lead Support Dialga, which is otherwise a nightmare for this team since Cloyster doesn't like it and can't kill it with a +2 Icicle Spear. It also hits Steel types like Jirachi for OHKO's. I like that Groudon is speed crept to 56, since it can outrun and kill Ho-Oh most of the time with Rock Slide. Also, 176 speed EV's allow Ho-Oh to outrun Scarf Terrakion and below after a Tailwind, so it functions similarly to Rock Polish Groudon. Just a great sweeper and it can support the team too!

    I have the same question as Superstar: why Flamethrower on Genesect???!?! As much as I despise Lum Berry on EKiller I can see how it fits onto this team. Flamethrower on Genesect takes away a great option for when Genesect is checkmated by a Ho-Oh or a boosted Arceus. You have enough ways to deal with Ferrothorn, I have used your team many times and never once had an issue with it. Custap Forry is a different story I guess but Flamethrower on Genesect won't stop it from getting up two hazards. I also noticed the change to Tailwind Ho-Oh over Band. I LOVE this change, gives your team more flexibility but am wondering what your inspiration for this adjustment was. Anyway, very nice team!
  20. conundrumx

    conundrumx

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    Hm, Spikes on Cloyster seem like an odd choice to me. Why not Rock Blast? I've always considered Cloyster a glass cannon, and I'm normally either taking him out very quickly or getting swept. I like (by which I mean hate) the Ho-oh set, and some of the physically boosted Groudons I've been seeing lately have definitely caught me off guard.
  21. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    Cloyster is used as a Jack of Many Trades over here. He spins he spikes, and occasionaly if opportunity permits (rarely in ubers) he shell smashes and takes a dragon or two down. You could use rock blast no doubt, but the matter of fact is apart from Ho-oh You're not getting much coverage on anything the cannot be icicle speared to death. Well, Ogre maybe, but this team already has enough checks to it.
  22. conundrumx

    conundrumx

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    I guess in my way of thinking Rock Blast is more likely to be useful than Spikes. I've never run the team, so I can't say for sure. Just struck me as odd.
  23. superstar

    superstar

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    Spikes are really needed to weaken Giratina-A, Groudon, and other checks to Ho-Oh and Extremekiller
  24. Yehom

    Yehom

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    I think the reason for running Flamethrower is for opposing Genesect. That's the only reason I can think of in combination with that odd max speed.
  25. syrim

    syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1

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    Who wants to do a team of mine next week?!

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