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Team Venomous Wish (an OU RMT)

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by ginganinja, Jul 19, 2010.

  1. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
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    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
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    Introduction
    Hello it’s me again with another RMT. Basically I wanted to utilise duel Wishers in a team so that my team could really go the distance in a match. With this goal in mind I created this team. Be careful. This RMT is very detailed (since I am obsessed about making quality RMTs) to give the rater as much info as possible. If you guys don’t like the amount of info I have tell me and I will post a tl, dr summery after each team member.


    Team building Guide

    Well first I needed my 2 wishers.

    The Pokémon in OU who can learn wish (at the time of creation) are.
    Salamence
    Blissey
    Jirachi
    Jolteon
    Togekiss
    Umbreon
    Vaporeon.

    Blissey was too fat, and too much of a whore, plus I just hated her so I got rid of her. Jolteon I discounted as too frail and Togekiss and Salamence had a SR weakness which I would have preferred to avoid. I eventually chose Vaporeon (it had a nice STAB and had water absorb to an extra method to recover health) and Jirachi (nice typing and a huge move list so I could customise it to what this team needs.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Next up I decided that with wish healing my Pokémon I could stall for a few turns so I decided that I would have a Roserade Lead.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Next I realised that Heatran was an issue with free switches on Roserade and Jirachi. Vaporeon helped with this but I decided on a Heatran to take random fire moves.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    I then wanted something to take on Tyranitar and something to set up SR. my primary choices were either Swampert or Gliscor. I eventually decided on Gliscor since by carrying Taunt I could stop my opponent from healing itself (eg Blissey) making Toxic Spikes more damaging. Gliscor also meant that I was in little danger from Lucario sweeping my team.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    My last slot was the toughest to fill. I eventually decided on a Rotom H which is nice since it can block Rapid Spin thus making it harder for my opponent to get rid of my Toxic Spikes.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    The Old team (before updates were made)


    Show Hide
    Roserade (M) @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    ---
    Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Taunt
    - Earthquake
    - Roost
    - Stealth Rock
    ---
    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Spd/252 SDef
    Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Flamethrower
    - Earth Power
    - Substitute
    - Will-o-wisp
    ---
    Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 216 Def/60 SAtk/232 SDef
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Surf
    - Hidden Power [Electric]
    ---
    Rotom-h @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 128 HP/212 Spd/168 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Charge Beam
    - Substitute
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    ---
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP/220 Def/36 Spd
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Wish
    - Thunderbolt
    - Psychic
    ---





    The Team

    (changes to movesets, EV's, Items will be made in Bold)




    The Lead

    [​IMG]

    Roserade (M) @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Lead Comparisons

    Show Hide

    [​IMG] Azelf- I will always use Sleep Powder straight off. If they set up SR then I have a Sleeping Azelf. If they Taunt me then I got for the Leaf Strom while they go for the SR. I then go to Heatran to set up a Substitute on the Fire Blast/Psychic.

    [​IMG] Aerodactyl- Leaf Storm twice and KO them.

    [​IMG] Swampert- Sleep Powder straight off. Sometimes I Leaf Storm just to kill Swampert. This is the best lead for me to face since I get up 2 layers of Toxic Spikes with ease.

    [​IMG] Machamp- I hate this lead. Leaf Storm straight off then go to Gliscor on the Bullet Punch to KO it with Earthquake

    [​IMG] Metagross- Go to Swampert to set up SR and scout what they do. I usually end up on top though with my Rotom

    [​IMG] Jirachi- I go to Heatran on the Iron Head. Lead Jirachi does not threaten my Heatran so I set up a Sub and attempt to burn the switch in.

    [​IMG] Infernape-Stay in. If they Fake Out then I go to Vaporeon. Otherwise I go for the Sleep Powder and try and get my Layers down.

    [​IMG] Ninjask- I just HP Ice the thing until it Baton Pass's. Then I put it to Sleep.

    [​IMG] Roserade- I will usualy stay in and use HP Ice to scout what he is running. Then I usually go to Heatran. From their I act accordingly. I usually come out on top though due to Wish healing my Roserade later in the match

    [​IMG] Hippowdon- Sleep Powder straight off and then get a layer down. I then switch out to Swampert to set up Rocks.



    Roserade is a rather useful lead that should get more notice. It is very fast and can hit very hard. With its Natural Cure ability I can switch Roserade into pretty much any status and get it healed the moment I switch out. This makes Roserade an excellent scout for my team later in the game once its job has been done. Roserade has Sleep Powder which against most leads I will use straight off the bat. Thanks to Sleep Powder I can get a free turn to get 1 layer of Toxic Spikes down and in some cases 2 layers. Toxic Spikes is very important since on Roserade I can set them up while the opponent is crippled by sleep. While other Pokemon (such as Forretress and Tentacruel) can set up Toxic Spikes Roserade can get them up much faster than them and earlier than them as well. Since Toxic Spikes is very important to this team I feel that Roserade allows me to put my strategy into place very quickly which is a key factor when using Toxic Spikes since the earlier you lay them, the better they work. Leaf Storm is just a very powerful STAB attack that I can fall back on. Back when Salamence was OU I would have to be careful using Sleep Powder and Leaf Storm since Salamence can set up on Roserade (if Sleep Cause has been activated). Since the dragon is now Uber I don’t have to worry about it so much. Following on in a similar vein I have HP Fire on Roserade to hit the steels that otherwise resist Leaf Storm. It feels very cool KO’ing a Scizor attempting to U-turn on Roserade.


    Focus Sash is so that I can get a free turn really. It’s nice because if Sleep Powder misses then I can attempt to hit a second time thanks to my sash. My Roserade is Timid and has max speed EV’s to outspeed as many things as possible. This is critical since Roserade cannot take hits from pretty much any OU lead. The SpA Evs are just their so I can hit things as hard as possible with Leaf Storm. Roserade is also useful to my team provided it survives the first few turns. With Vaporeon and Jirachi passing wish’s Roserade can last a long time. Roserade is my best switch in to Breloom and for that it’s invaluable. Roserade is also used to check Bulky waters and provides a nice back up check to Tyranitar if the need arises.

    Why not Forretress, Tentacruel or Smeargle?
    I felt that Roserade was more useful to the team then Foretress or Tentacruel. For one thing Roserade is faster than both of them and can cripple a lead with Sleep Powder. It packs much more of a punch than both Forretress and Tentacruel. I did not like Forretress because It felt like a dead weight after it had laid its Toxic Spikes and it was very easy to set up on unless I ran Explosion which I felt defeated the purpose of running a Wish Team. Tentacruel was not used due to it increasing my Electric weakness. Also both it and Vaporeon both checked similar things/ had similar move sets. Smeargle can set up Toxic Spikes and Spikes and for that reason I feel it’s the second best lead for this team (the first being Roserade). While Spikes is not essential to the team it’s nice to have since it provides the perfect combination to my opponent. They cannot stay in and risk being killed by Toxic Spikes while my team wishes off damage, however if they switch they lose 25% of health (more if I have SR up) it was precisely this reason as to why I was interesting in Smeargle however I was simply not fast enough for me.

    ---
    The Physical Tank

    [​IMG]

    Swampert (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 252HP / 200Def / 56SpDef
    Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Roar
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Beam
    - Stealth Rock

    Swampert is a key member of the team. To start with he has a very nice immunity to Electric moves leaving only a huge grass weakness which is covered fairly well by the rest of my team. Swampert Is near impossialbe to take down when used with wish support since he now has a psuedo recovery move. Swampert is also not threatened by status since my Vaporeon can cure it from poison or Burn thanks to Heal Bell. Swampert is my primary Tyranitar counter which is crucial to my team. Swampert hits it fairly hard with an Earthquake which will deter it from constantly switching in. Swampert also runs Stealth Rock which my team enjoys having since it takes 25% of threatening pokemon such as Gyarados and Dragonite. Ice Beam is very effective againt Dragonite and is one of the primary reasons that I am using Gliscor over Swampert. Earthquake is a general STAB move that helps hit steel types such as Heatran hard.

    Swampert has excellent synergy on this team. It forms a nice Mini Core between Heatran, Roserade and itself to take many attacks. Wish only increases its longativity. Between it and Heatran my opponient can find it tough to break through my team due to their bulkyness. The EV's on Swampert are to make it as bulky as possiable while dealing both with Tyranitar and Dragonite which is its main job. Swampert is walled by Skarmory however, this is taken care of by Heatran who can scare it off with its STAB Flamethrower. wampet is now a valued member of the team hitting hard physiccally and taking a lage number of hits due to its bulk.




    ---
    The Pokemon that played with Fire

    [​IMG]

    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Spd/252 SDef
    Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Flamethrower
    - Earth Power
    - Substitute
    - Will-o-wisp

    Yup. I betcha you have not seen this Heatran before. I came across it in the smog #9 issue. I had always wanted to try it out and then, when I had a team perfect for it….its analysis had gone and I had no idea what spread I would use and other things. So when the Smog mentioned it I knew I had to try it. This Heatran fits a nice niche in the team. I suppose its part of my Grass/Water/Fire Core but I don’t think Roserade is bulky enough to be considered part of a core. The basic set is simple. Set up a Substitute on something that will switch out of Heatran and then act accordingly. If they send in a Flygon, Gyarados or even a Dragonite then I will use Will-o-wisp on the switch crippling there physical attack stat. Many people do not suspect a Burn from Heatran and thus are more casual switching stuff like Kingdra and Gyarados into Heatran since they resist most of Heatrans attacks. The final 2 attacks on Heatran are to pick up coverage. Earth Power and Flamethrower hit quite a few things in OU for Super effective damage which is nice to have. The Evs are to maximise special bulk. This Heatran takes only 20% from a standard Rotom meaning that Rotom cannot break Heatrans Sub nor can it logically win against this Heatran. Again, a Calm nature increases the bulk to take special attacks.

    Some of you may be asking: “Why not Shuca Berry?” The reason for this is that I have no need of shuca berry. This Heatran can survive a fellow Heatran’s Earth Power without a shuca berry and fire off an Earth Power of its own in return. I have no need for defence EVs since Will-o-wisp cripples the physical attack stat of many Pokémon meaning that special Bulk is preferred. Will-o-wisp just works so well with the team. Since I run a CM Jirachi people have to use special attacks on it (provide they are burnt) which is a futile dilemma since CM will boost my spD stat while Wish heals me. Also it is this Heatran that made me give SR to Gliscor over Roost. Toxic hits fliers however Will-o-wisp hits fliers as well and hits Steel Types otherwise immune to poison. Also since the majority of Pokémon immune to poison damage are physically based (Dragonite, Lucario, Metagross) burn cripples them. Following on from the above point Heatran is my main Steel killer. Its STAB Flamethrowers will scare them off forcing my opponent to bring in something affected my Toxic Spike sin order to scare Heatran away. The fact that Heatran’s best counters hate either Toxic Spikes (Blissey, Offensive Suicune, and Vaporeon) or Burn (Gyarados, Kingdra) only increases Heatrans usefulness on the team.

    ---
    The Wisher

    [​IMG]

    Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 212 Def/60 SAtk/232 SDef
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Surf
    - Heal Bell

    My first half of my defensive Core. Vaporeon does so much for the team is not even funny. First and Foremost it has excellent synergy with both Heatran and Gliscor allowing me to freely switch my Pokémon around with little trouble. Wish and protect are obvious since they form the core of the team. Water Absorb is a god send really. It makes my opponent very careful about using water moves around Heatran and Gliscor when Vaporeon is around. Surf is a nice STAB move that deters Infernape and other fire types from switching in. Vaporeon I suppose is really my catch all counter to many threats such as Heatran.

    Again this is what the team is based around. With Wish I can heal key members of my team allowing me to gain the upper hand for longer periods of time. Wish gives me a safety net against crits and lets me cushion my switch ins better. Vaporeon is such an integral part of the team and it the perfect team player. Wish lets my team take many hits and still come back for more. Wish is valuable to both Heatran and Rotom since both appreciate the recovery from Wish since both do not have a recovery move. Wish is also useful to Rotom and Heatran in other ways since they both sacrifice 25% of there health to make Substitutes. With Vaporeon and Jirachi both utilising wish Heatran and Rotom can keep abusing there resistances and immunities to get a free switch and start using Substitute even more since wish can restore there health. Lastly Wish helps keep my defensive core going so I can abuse wish more often. Vaporeon used to have HP Electric to deal with Gyarados. However, on the suggestion of Bad Ass Heal Bell was recomended since my team did not enjoy sleep and Toxic being thrown around. With Heal Bell I do not fear Breloom or Thunderwave/Toxic Blissey. This also gives my team greater fluidity in that it can now switch in to status. Also Vaporeon was vulnerabel to Toxic which means that my Core was threatened if it got poisoned. With Heal bell this is gone and my Core remains strong. However this does come at a cost. Vaporeon can no longer check Gyarados which can now set up much more easily o my team with Vaporeon and Gliscor unable to touch it.



    ---
    The Electric Toaster (that you can stick a knife into)

    [​IMG]

    Rotom-h @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Spd/4 SDef
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball
    - Overheat
    - Trick

    Ah Rotom-h. Rotom is my Spin Blocker and it does a perfect job. However I do not rely too much on Rotom to Spin Block, since it currently does not have the stats for this. This new Rotom set was suggested to me by Bad Ass since Vaporeon and Gliscor were compleate set up fodder for Gyarados. Rotom really checks Gyarados and faster sweepers such as Gengar and Starmie. Rotom gives me a second Lucario check which I don't realy need but its nice to have in case Gliscor is crippled. The Evs for Rotom allow it to hit very hard and very fast allowing it to check a greater number of things. I chose Overheat on Rotom since that lets me cripple the steel types that plague OU. It also hits Skamory for nice damage. Thunderbolt was a general STAB option that hits the many water types which I have slight issues with such as Gyarados and Starmie. I chose Shadow Ball over HP Ground though. This was because I wanted to hit Gengar which could cause my team issues with Jirachi was weakened. Shadow Ball also gets O.K coverage in OU and in my oppinion it is better than HP Ground since HP Ground means that you are pure set up fodder. Rotom also has Trick which really helps against stall since I can trick a Scarf on Blissey which makes beating it much easier.

    Rotom supports the team in a few ways. He really checks individual threats which can hamper my team such as Gyarardos and Starmie which I needed when I dropped HP Electric on Vaporeon. as explained Rotom can also spin block if needed. His scarf lets him outspeed Starmie which usually threatens Rotom. Rotom also has made it much more easy for me to beat stall and can also function as a trick absorber which my team enjoys having since my Core members hate being tricked. Rotom still serves at drawing out Heatran which Vaporeon loves to switch in on and set up a Wish.

    Why not Gengar?
    I have heard quite a lot about this Sub-Split Gengar that is apparently the ‘next big thing”. I have not tested it yet (which is why my rates never mention/recommend it due to me not mentioning things I don’t know/have not tried out, otherwise I look like an ignorant dickhead) Anyway back on the subject of Gengar. Gengar seems to do my Rotoms job. It can beat Blissey and is more an offensive Spin blocker which this team seems to prefer. However I lose out on a second Scizor check (with Heatran being my only one and then my opponent cold get smart and use Superpower on the switch). I also lose out on a lot of Bulk that Rotom has, however I gain a hellava lot of speed and power in exchange. I am not sure what I should use so help here would be appreciated.


    ---
    Not the Star (of the show)

    [​IMG]

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP/220 Def/36 Spd
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Wish
    - Thunderbolt
    - Psychic

    Fuk Jirachi. That thing has too many cliches its not even funny. Seriously though, I hate it when Jirachi is used against me and when it Hax's me, however, I damn near love it when it sweeps for me like it should. (oh the Irony). Anyway Jirachi is my key sweeper and part 2 of my defensive core. It heals Vaporeon (its wish partner) and can also heal other team members as well although I don’t like revealing Jirachi too early. This Jirachi is pretty standard really. Use CM and Wish to boost up while having a recovery move. Since Vaporeon is also passing wish I can get my Jirachi in on pretty much full health a recycle from there. Jirachi is my best water type counter. It beats CroCune I believe, which can screw this team over since Toxic Spikes cannot really threaten it. I decided on Psychic over Flash Cannon due to psychic hitting those pesky Machamp running around as well as hitting Breloom super effectively. Tyranitar is beaten by Gliscor and Vaporeon really. Toxic Spikes can also wear it down gradually. The Evs allow Jirachi to survive a +1 Adamant LO Earthquake from Gyarados. Jirachi is the final member of the team that can attempt to beat Blissey.

    I use Jirachi very conservatively. I will bring Vaporeon out first and then Jirachi second (since its my main sweeper). Once I have scouted my opponent’s team I will pass wishes around with Jirachi. When my opponent has no counters left to Jirachi I will start to CM up and sweep. Note that Jirachi will usually not attempt a sweep till very late game. This is because I want to use Rotom and Heatran (in conjunction with Toxic Spikes) to batter my opponents team until Jirachi can finally sweep.

    ---

    PAST TEAM MEMBERS

    Show Hide

    The Stall Breaker (REPLACED BY SWAMPERT)

    [​IMG]


    Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Taunt
    - Earthquake
    - Roost
    - Stealth Rock

    Gliscor is such a useful asset to the team. It does give me an Ice Weakness (just like Roserade) but this is covered by the rest of my team including my Wishers. Gliscor was put on the team really to make sure that Lucario and Tyranitar did not steam roll through my team. It takes physical attacks very well which is nice since Roserade cannot take physical attacks at all. This is the standard Stall breaker set but without Toxic. I decided that with Toxic Spikes up I did not need Toxic although there is another reason below. Taunt is the crux of this set and this is why Gliscor is so very important to the team. With taunt I can prevent Pokémon from setting up on me. Taunt also helps me beat Pokémon that have recovery moves, mainly Pokémon such as Blissey. Blissey in particular is a major problem to the team since it walls pretty much everyone on the team. Anyway Gliscor provides a means to cripple members of a stall team which it does extremely well. Not to mention that even if it runs out of Roost PP I can still heal it with Wish. Earthquake is a general STAB move to hit things (steels mainly) hard. This is useful since Steels are one of the few things that are otherwise immune to Toxic Spikes so having a super effective attack to hit them with is very nice. Roost is my main method of healing and allows Gliscor to stall for longer. As I stated earlier however, I have other methods of healing Gliscor anyway. Lastly I have Stealth Rock on Gliscor. This is really because I had nowhere else to put it and Toxic was not needed anyway. Due to Gliscor walling certain Pokémon it is relatively easy for Gliscor to get the free turn it needs to set up those rocks.

    The EVs are meant to make it as fast as possible while still retaining bulk. Jolly was used to make sure that Gliscor has the speed to taunt as many things as he can. As stated Gliscor helps the team mainly by dealing with Tyranitar (which Jirachi hates) and Lucario (which pretty much OHKO’s my entire team if it sets up a SD). I chose Sand Veil because, even though I don’t run Tyranitar, it is common enough so that I can still abuse Sandstorm when I need it to. Also since Gliscor (as already stated) is my main T-tar check Sandstorm would always be active when Gliscor switches in on T-tar. Lastly Gliscor has excellent synergy with the team, especially with Vaporeon meaning that I can get nice opportunities for my Wishers’ to get in.

    Why not Swampert?
    I toyed with the idea of Swampert. It was bulky enough to handle Tyranitar and even Lucario without a SD. Swampert also came with a nice range of physical moves to hit Blissey with if I needed to Swampert’s grass weakness was covered by the rest of the team. However Gliscor was able to break stall better than Swampert could and thus that is the reason why Gliscor is on the team. One of the major “Plus” (no pun intended) points of Swampert was its ability to check Salamence, however, with Salamence being Uber its niche on my team has gotten smaller.

    Basic Team Stats

    no pokemon are weak to Stealth Rock and I have 2 pokemon that actually resist Stealth Rock

    1 pokemon is weak to Toxic Spikes (however its part of my defensive core so that is kinda important)

    4 of my pokemon are hit my Spikes.

    Things I am considering… (NB this is before anyway has even rated)

    -Spikes: Spikes you help me put realy pressure on my opponient and add a “checkmate” dilemma since if my opponinet staied in then they lose health via Toxic Spikes, if they switch they lose health.

    -Sub DD Kingdra: Sub Kingdra gives me a decent physical attacker that can take down Blissey. It also helps with the stalling process

    -Sub Seeding: This I think would make my team damn near indestructiable. I would be able to stall really well since Toxic Spikes would already be draining health.

    -A Zapdos to Toxic Stall


    Conclusion.
    This team was very fun to use. With 2 wishers I can heal any Pokémon on my team. Toxic spikes allows me to put a timer on my opponents Pokémon. I think that my team does very well when facing offensive teams designed to weaken checks for a certain Pokémon (eg Lucario). Due to my having 2 wishers it hard for individual Pokémon to sweep me since my team can outlast many offensive team. I guess I would describe this as a bulky offensive team since its goal is to take hits while weakening my opponent’s team. This team does have issues with teams that love to stack up entry hazards since that limits my switches which means I cannot use Wish as effectively.

    When rating this team bear in mind that I don’t really want to turn this into a stall team. I am aware that it kinda looks stally anyway but I feel that it still possesses an offensive nature which allows me to utilise it to its fullest extent (since I am primarily an offensive player)

    Again I must stress this point here: I will gladely listen do any and all recommendations done. I will also test them. All I ask in return is that you tell me why I should do what you suggest. I feel that this is not too much to ask.
    Anyway, Have a Nice Day Everyone!

    Updated Team Notes.
    With the suggestions the team as recieved and put in place this team does much better against stall and semi Stall teams wich me checking many threats. However I have noticed that while working better agaisnt stall the team is.....more fragile against Offensive, particulary against Gyarados. Scarf Rotom is really nice but the double switching I have to do when I bring Rotom inis very annoying. Furthermore with Rotom becoming Scarfed he has more responsbility on him to beat certain threats. For without him, Gyarados can realy threated the team thanksto the large amount of oppotunities it was to set up. This means that a ScarfTar can realy screw me up and I often have to not use Vaporeon and Gliscor until the threat (eg Gyarados) is gone otherwise its free switchs screw me over. Suggestions to fix this would be appreciated.

    Special Thanks List

    Bad Ass for fixing my Vaporeons EV spreads and sugesting it be a Cleric. He also suggested a scarf Rotom to fix up my Gyarados weakness brough on by my Vaporeons moveset change. Great rate!

    Towelie for giving me a better Rotom spread.

    Cheesesticks for reminding me about my Dragonite weakness and then giving a long rate on how to deal with this issue. Thanks so much!



    PS: If you actually read all of this then I think I love you. Double props if you did not skip to the end like I think most of you did. (Don't worry I wil not hold it agenst you lol)


    Credit for http://www.arkeis.com/pokemonfactory.htm and http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/platinum_plmfa.html for the sprites.
  2. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,792
    Threat List: STOLEN FROM FRANKY'S THREAD

    STATUS: FINISHED

    Green is no threat
    Orange shows that there is some threat but it can be handled.
    Red means that there is a large threat.


    [​IMG]Scizor:
    -Initial Switch: Heatran since most scizor don't SuperPower first turn
    -SD Variant: Rotom handles it
    -CB Variant: Rotom and to an extent Heatran does

    [​IMG]Salamence: UBER

    [​IMG]Heatran:
    -Initial Switch: Depends what its in on but usually Heatran to soak up its first Fire attack. I can go to Vaporeon as well
    -Lead Shuca/SashTran: Vaporeon mainly and try and avoid an Explosion with Protect.
    -ScarfTran: Vaporeon pretty much handles it. My own Heatran can also beat it in a pinch.
    -SpecsTran: Vaporeon is a much safer switch due to very few SpecsTrans runing Explosion. Surf scares it away
    -LO Tran: Nothing can really beat it. Iwill go to Vaporeon, protect then go to my Heatran since I can surive an Earthpower and an Explosion.
    -SubHeatran: I hate SubTran. Go to Vaporeon and really hope that it does not use Toxic or Explosion. If it loses its SUb then my own Heatran can beat it.

    [​IMG]Gyarados:
    -Initial Switch: Vaporeon
    -Leftovers DD: Vaporon can take pretty much everything and can hit it with HP Electric. Jirachi can also take an Earthquake and KO with thunderbolt
    -Life Orb DD: Again Vaporeon is my best option here KOing with HP Electric. Again as a last resort Jirachi can thunderbolt it.
    -Restalk: Vaporeon can HP Electric it.

    [​IMG]Rotom-A:
    -Initial Switch: Heatran, takes bs from anything it does except HP Ground
    -Scarf: tricky, (no pun intended) I go to Heatran but trick screws this team over
    -Restalk: Heatran does its job here
    -SubCharge Beam: Again Heatran but I must be carefull for it not to get any boosts.

    [​IMG]Tyranitar:
    -Initial Switch: Gliscor.
    -ScarfTar: Gliscor can handle most of its attacks. Heatran can come in on a Dark move and Burn it or set up a Sub
    -CBTar: Gliscor, if Roserade is alive then it can beat it
    -DDTar: Gliscor but its hard for Tyranitar to set up a DD
    -BOAH Variants: Go to Gliscor then double switch to Vaporeon to scout if it has Ice Beam. If it was Ice Beam then I am forced to try Vaporeon. Otherwise Gliscor still beats it.
    -CurseTar: Not really an issue. Gliscor taunts it and makes it useless. From then on Toxic Spikes finish it. If for whatever reason Toxic Spikes are not up then Heatran can come in once it is Taunted and Burn it, then GI can go back to Gliscor and stall it out.

    [​IMG]Metagross:
    -Initial Switch: Rotom
    -LeadGross: Gliscor to try and prevent SR otherwise Rotom can deal with it prety well
    -CBGross: Rotom handles it. Gliscor can come in on an Earthquake can threaten to criple it with an Earthquake of its own.

    [​IMG]Lucario:
    -Initial Switch: Glisocr
    -SD: Gliscor beats it. Its really my only answer though
    -Specs: Prediction really. Gliscor beats ones without HP Ice. Otherwise in a pinch Jirachi can take one out with Psychic. I don't like bringing Jirachi in early though.

    [​IMG]Infernape:
    -Initial Switch: Vaporeons as good as I got
    -MixApe: Vaporeon here but cannot switch in on Close Combat.
    -Physical Ape: This is really tricky. I canot really do much except lure an Overheat, then Gliscor can come in safely.
    -ScarfApe" Play around it really. Toxic Spikes wear it down though and Vaporeon can check it pretty well.

    [​IMG]Jirachi:
    -Initial Switch: Heatran
    -Scarf Jirachi: Heatran. I get a free Sub and can even burn it if it stays in.
    -Expert Belt Jirachi: Again Heatran since pretty much it canot touch me bar HP Ground.
    -CM Jirachi: Thanks to my heavy SpD investment I can take most of its attacks and threaten nice damage from Flamethrower.

    [​IMG]Gengar:
    -Initial Switch: Heatran really since it can survive a Focus Blast (only does 70%). Still, this team hates facing Gengar.
    -LO Gengar: Heatran again here. Jirachi can set up on it.
    -ScarfGengar: Prediction mostly but I enjoy seeing it as opposed to other Gengar sets
    -SubGengar: well don't really let it get up a Sub. Heatran again, Jirachi
    -LO Pain Split: Heatran can eventually stand up to it. Still, I have no real answer to any Gengar with Substitute. Jirachi can help though

    [​IMG]Swampert:
    -Initial Switch: Rotom makes for a Nice Switch as des Roserade providing I avoid an Ice Beam
    -Standard Mixpert: Roserade pretty much owns it once its safely in. It can be stalled out with Toxic Spikes though
    -CBPert: Prediction really. Rotom, Vaporeon and even Glisocr can do o.k against it.
    -Cursepert: Vaporeon can stall it pretty well with Wish and Protect. I can double switch a bit between Vaporeon and Gliscor. Roserade shuts it down.

    [​IMG]Blissey:
    -Initial Switch: Ah the wall that screws my team. I go to Gliscor first usually.
    -WishBliss: Gliscor and wear it down. Rotm also works
    -Non-wish Bliss: Rotom works as well as Gliscor. I need Toxic Spikes up though.

    [​IMG]Azelf:
    -Initial Switch: Heatran
    -Lead Azelf: Roserade Leaf Storms it and Heatran can take pretty much whatever it can dish out.
    -NP Azelf: Again Heatran although its dissicult for Azelf to get a NP boost
    -ColburElf: Roserade and Heatran check it pretty well.

    [​IMG]Starmie:
    -Initial Switch: Vaporeon really. Jirachi can also tackle it
    -LO Starmie: Same as above (Vaporeon and Jirachi). I really don't have much for it though.
    -Rapid Spinner: its attacks are weaker so I feel more confortable with Jirachi and Vaporeon taking its attacks.
    -Choice Starmie: Prediction really but its STAB is easily taken and Gliscor walls Thunderbolt

    [​IMG]Gliscor:
    -Initial Switch: Vaporeon or Rotom really but both don't like Toxic
    -SD Gliscor: its hard for it to set up but if it does then Vaporeon can take a hit. Roserade can hit it hard but needs a sash. Rotom can start Shadow Balling but will not like Night Slash
    -Stall Gliscor: I realy hate this one. Rotom really although Vaporeon can hit it with a Surf
    -BP Gliscor: Well Heatran can set up a Sub (provided it aviods Taunt) and burn the switch in. Roserade and Vaporeon both threaten it with SE moves.
    [​IMG]Vaporeon:
    -Initial Switch: My Jirachi generally. If Vaporepn shows up eearly however then Roserade or my own Vaporeon make for a good switch.
    -WishProtect Vaporeon:
    -SpecsVaporeon: Vaporeon walls its STAB. Jirachi can set up on an Ice Beam. Prediction works best but it is not too threatening when I can pass wishs round to heal myself.

    [​IMG]Magnezone:
    -Initial Switch: Well if it comes in on Jirachi then I cannot switch in on it. However Heatran is a nice choice since it can take a thunderbolt or two
    -Substitute: Heatran again but I really don't like it when it gets a Sub up.
    -Scarf: Prediction really. Gliscor walls its STAB and Heatran can do O.K

    [​IMG]Zapdos:
    -Initial Switch: Gliscor really since its likely to use its STAB first. Then I got to Heatran to scout its Hidden Power.
    -Defensive: Heatran does pretty well. Gliscor can taunt it if it lacks HP Ice.
    -Offensive: This is more tricky but I usualy go straight to Heatran to absorb its thunderbolts and threaten damage from Flamethrower.
    -Choiced: Prediction works best. Jirachi can set up if its locked into an HP. Glisocr can switch into Thunderbolts all day long. Heatran can take pretty much else. SR wears it down though.

    [​IMG]Machamp:
    -Initial Switch: I hate Machamp. I generally attempt to hit it hard with whatever is in at the time. Heatran can burn it if Toxic Spikes are not up. Otherwise Jirachi can kill it if its taken a hit or so.
    -Substitute: Do Not let it get a Sub up. Pretty much just weaken it and try and get Jirachi in safely.
    -Lead: Leaf Strom and then Go to Gliscor to kill it with Earthquake

    [​IMG]Kingdra:
    -Initial Switch: Vaproreon to scout its set. then act accordingly
    -DD Kingdra: Tricky. It its holding Lum then Toxic Spikes cannot wear it down. Vaporeon is a nice beat. I cannot hurt it too much but I can force an Outrage and KO to Jirachi after setting up a Wish. Stil, I have little that can take both Water and Dragon Attacks. If it has Leftovers then VAporeon can stall it pretty well.
    -Rain Dance Mix: It outspeeds my entire team. Since it does not have sub on this set I can scout with Vaporeon to see if it has HP Electric. If it does then I go to Jirachi to try and weaken it.

    [​IMG]Breloom:
    -Initial Switch: Roserade if its at full health. Otherwise I guess I have to sac Gliscor to the sleep then go to Rotom to deal with it.
    -SubPuncher: Roserade and then I guess Rotom once Sleep Cause has been activated
    -ScarfLoom: Prediction really but Rotom handles most of its attacks.

    [​IMG]Skarmory:
    -Initial Switch: Heatran, always Heatran
    -Spiker: Its a bitch. It gets a yellow soley because it can set up spikes on Vaporeon and hamper my switchs. If it gets 3 layers up its GG. This is maybe why I realy like Heatran on the team.

    [​IMG]Bronzong:
    -Initial Switch: Gliscor.
    -Standard Leftovers / Light Clay: Gliscor taunts it this rendering it fairly useless. I often have to rish a switch to Heatran though at some stage during the match if I can avoid an Earthquake since Gliscor cannot do much back to Bronzong.
    -CMZong: Tricky since I don't really know what attacks it runs. Still I think that Heatran can walls its StABs and Gliscor can taunt it and Jirachi can set up along side it.
    -Trick: Gliscor on the first switch then Heatran to scare it off. Still the threat of Earthquake means I have to be very careful. Once its tricked something then Rotom can laugh at it.

    [​IMG]Celebi:
    -Initial Switch: Heatran. I don't even have to worry about Earthpower very much since I have enough special bulk to survive one.
    -Defensive: Heatan again. I still would prefer to avoid a thunderwave though.
    -CM / CM Pass: Jirachi is nice if it lacks HP Fire. Otherwise I guess Gliscor can taunt on and Heatarn can scare it off.
    -SD Pass: Heatra pretty much laughs at it and can burn the switch in. Generally I will set up a Sub with Heatran and then start attacking to scout whether the recipient is immune to Poison. If its a steel I have my Sub up and can burn the damn thing.
    -Choice: Prediction but pretty much not an isue for the team with Heatran working decently.

    [​IMG]Flygon:
    -Initial Switch: Gliscor. I cannot to much back to him but thats not the point. Gliscor can take a U-turn and can draw a Fire attack or an Outrage if it needs too.
    -Scarf: Glisocr to scout what it does
    -Band: Gliscor again but I have to be more careful since it packs more of a punch. Again once its locked into an attack its easy to deal with.
    -Roost LO/Stall: Gliscor is not the best option here. Vaporeon works best really but it does depend on whether it is special LO or physical LO. Toxic Stall sets suck but Rotom can deal with it pretty well.

    [​IMG]Suicune:
    -Initial Switch: Um, Roserade if its alive. Otherwise Jirach or Vaporeon.
    -Offensive CMer: Toxic Spikes wears it down. Jirachi can set up a CM and if Vaporeon can get a wish up on the turn that I switch to Jirachi then I can start to CM.
    -ResTalk: Its a bitch. Still, Vaporeon can stall it a little bit and Jirahci can CM up as well. If its the last pokemon left then I will usually sac Glisocr to Taunt it and then start the CM war with Jirachi. Between Jirachi and Vaporeon I can usualy stall it out of PP.
    [​IMG]Jolteon:
    -Initial Switch: Gliscor
    -Specs: Gliscor walls it STAB. I have to be careful though is it has HP Ice. Heatran can take a hit though.
    -Charge Beam: Its more of an issue if it gets a boost but Heatran can handle it O.K. I still hate dealing with it though.

    [​IMG]Empoleon:
    -Initial Switch: Vaporeon really.
    -Lead: Vaporeon since Empoleon cannot to shit to it.
    -AgilityPetaya: this is even more fun. Jirachi can CM up and wish while Empoleon can only agility up and try and wear me down with surfs. Once I am on full health and am +6 I then break its sub until Petaya activates. Then I kill it.
    -AgilityLife Orb: Same deal really except Vaporeon deals with it pretty well since it has no Sub.

    [​IMG]Forretress: Heatran. I can hit it and set up a SUb. I really hate it when it sets up Spikes though.
    [​IMG]Electivire: Rotom walls it and I can usually hurt it enough for Jirachi it kill it. Its no threat if Heatran burns it though.
    [​IMG]Togekiss: Gliscor to Taunt the damn thing then go to Jirachi to start CMing.

    [​IMG]Weavile: well Vaporeon can try and stall it out with Toxic SPikes but not much on my team can outspeed or beat it.

    [​IMG]Aerodactyl: Roserade can blast it with a Leaf Strom. Vaporeon can take a hit and KO it with Surf

    [​IMG]Mamoswine: This is pretty touch. I think that Jirachi can take a hit and cripple it with a psychic but am not sure. If its a Lead then Leaf Storm pretty much deals with it unless it has a sash in which case its not sweeping through my team.

    [​IMG]Snorlax: Well Rotom can set up on it if it lacks Crunch. Glisocr can taunt it if it is a booster. if its CB then predict around it really.
    [​IMG]Dusknoir: Rotom can laugh at most versions and can set up a Sub vs Sucker Punch versions. It can be stalled out via Toxic Spikes if need be.

    [​IMG]Smeargle: Its fragile but there is not much I can do. Generally Heatran can set up a SUb and scout what it does since my team lacks speed.

    [​IMG]Ninjask: Same as above realy although Roserade handles it well enough if its a Lead.
    [​IMG]Tentacruel: I hate it simply because it soaks up my Toxic Spikes. Still it cannot do to much to me while Jirachi can try and CM up against it.

    [​IMG]Dragonite: well I canot do too much. SR takes off 25% but Earthquake and DD versions pretty mcuh cause me huge issues. Jirachi can take a hit much I don't like Sacrificing Jirachi

    [​IMG]Hippowdon: Roserade beats most. Vaporeon can also scare it off. Glisocr can taunt it and then wear it down. Toxic SPikes cripple it. NO threat.

    [​IMG]Roserade: Heatran is perfect once Sleep Cause has been acivated. Stil I have to keep my own Roserade alive soI can soak up its Spikes.

    [​IMG]Porygon-Z:Well I have to work around it really. If it lacks HP Ground then I think Heatran can take a hit and KO it. Never seen one to be frank.

    [​IMG]Cresselia: This is such a bitch to take down. Gliscor taunts it but I really need to work hard at wearing it down. Its just a pain really since it does not threaten the team too much.

    [​IMG]Heracross: Surprisingly this is a dangerus threat. If its choiced I can predict around it but otherwise if its LO'ed or something then I have to go to Gliscor (which fails if it has Facade). Facade beats Gliscor which means Rotom is my best option. I can stall it out via Toxic Spikes though.


    Team Playstyles

    Stall: Yeah I hate this. If I can get rid of their spinner and Tentacruel then Ican win buy setting up Toxic Spikes. Spikes from a stall team does not threaten me too much. Gliscor is my best weapon against it though. Usually I try and keep Rotom in play agsint it to deter Tentacruel and Forretress from switching in too much.

    Offense: Well, save for a few threats I can play against Offense relatively well. Some teams focus on removing certain pokemon so that their key sweper can sweep. These offensive teams generally do poorly since my stratigy prevvents individual pokemon from being worn down while Toxic Spikes wears then down.

    Heavy Offense: well I can stall them out (on a good day) of screens while Toxic Spikes can take their toll. Still the amount of power they pact buts me under instant pressure.

    Baton Pass Teams: Not too difficult since Roserade can sleep them and Glisocr can taunt them. usualy I can cripple the "key sweeper" by either Burn or Toxic Spikes. Its still ricky though it its a mixed sweeper than icanot check.

    Weather Teams: Toxic Spike wears them down and ican usually deal with individual threats. rain teams are the most tricky since I canot use Heatran or Glisocr effectively.

    Semi Stall/Spike Stack: These teams pretty much beat me. They counter my stratigy and its not too difficult for them to lay spikes on my team. This is the reason I have Heatran (or one of the reasons) as it give me a sporting chance. Not much though.

    Bulky Offense: again its difficult. We are failr yevenly matched but Toxic Spikes can be the decideing factor if I can keep them up.

    Trick: Its not a team style but it screws up my team so I htink I should put it here, I have very few switch'ins o Trick.



    Have a Nice Day!
  3. agamemaker

    agamemaker

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    It seems that you are going to need a rapid spiner only 2 of your pokemon have sr resistance and only 2 of your pokemon has spikes immunity. While all but one member of your team has toxic spikes immunity, vaporeon hates toxic and you will probably switch into it most of the time, you are going to end up foddering your roserade if you don't get a rapid spiner. Wish forces you to switch and if your pokemon are all ready weakened they might be finished off by a resisted attack If they come in with a lot of entry hazards. Spin blocking should not be a priority when toxic spikes can be absorbed and you have a bulky stealth rocker.
  4. dws93rd

    dws93rd

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    I agree with the person above me, it does seem like you will need Rapid spin. But the hard part would be figuring out who can be replaced by a Rapid Spinner that can still fulfill the former pokes role on your team.
    Personally, I think either a Bulky Starmie or a Physically defensive Forretress could fill the role of a spinner with this team. Not to mention they could both help offensively. Especially with Forretress being able to explode on Bliss since you said you have some trouble with her.
    If you go with either of the pokes i suggested I'm gonna leave it up to you to decide who to replace.
  5. agamemaker

    agamemaker

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    I definitely suggest putting in fortress for rapid spin + spike support. Fortress is very effective with wish support making up for his lack of recovery. I take back my comment about no need for spin blocking, but poison types can psudospin your toxic spikes, which you need a solution for. With rapid spin support togekiss becomes a viable option. Umbreon is also a great wish support wall/sweeper. considering how much you be using toxic, subtran with will-o-wisp is sort of useless. scarftran provides a revenge killer, tormenttran gives you a better staller.
  6. Bad Ass

    Bad Ass bring me coffee or tea
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    the main problems for your team are fast special attackers. gengar, starmie, and shaymin are large problems, but i think i have a solid solution for all of them. first of all, i'd like you to replace heatran for a choice band snorlax. heatran is used to predominantly take special attacks and spread status. while snorlax cant burn stuff, it can hit as hard as a truck and pursuit all the fast, frail nuances to your team. heatran can't stand up to the best special attackers, like the aforementioned pokemon. snorlax adds some much needed physical offense. the two main problems with cb snorlax are a) its vulnerability to status and b) lack of healing. your dual wish strategy helps that, but if it gets burned, then it is useless. same gos for poisoning vaporeon, or burning gliscor.

    that leads into my second suggestion. heal bell vaporeon over hp electric, and making the spread 212 def / 232 sdef / 60 satk. (fukin twash) vaporeon becomes even more of an asset to your team, and if it gets poisoned you dont lose it for the match. hp electric is for...gyarados? healing the whole team of status is better than killing gyarados. this change will open you up to gyarados a bit more, but that is okay. my last suggestion is to scarf your rotom. this gives you a second check to a myriad of threats, which subcharge doesnt offer. it can swap in on taunt gyarados looking to set up on vaporeon. i'd use max hp and max speed, timid. thunderbolt, shadow ball, overheat, trick. vaporeon lures in electric attacks, and jirachi ground, that rotom can receive a wish on. max hp is instrumental in taking waterfalls, surfs, flamethrowers, and dragon claws.

    these are my changes. try them, and i hope they work.
  7. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Cheers everyone for you awesome rates.

    @ agamemaker

    First off. Congrats to agamemaker for spotting this teams main Weakness.. to Spikes. Yep the team really struggles with Spikes up since it limits my switchs and restricts my abiity to counter threats. Forretress was a nice Idea and it even gave me spiks as well. However I lost huge amounts of momentium since my moveset was spikes/Toxic Spikes/Rapid Spin and Explosion which means I was Ghost fodder. When I tried Payback Forretress worked better however it was a deadweight against offensive teams and Heatran would get free Substitutes against it. So Forretress did not work so well I am sorry to say.

    Also Sub Tran with Will-o-wisp is not useless. I stated that in my RMT Will-o-wisp huts the physical threats and cripples them.
    Below is a list of all the pokemon that Toxic Spikes does not affect. Bolded pokemon are pokemon that I feel get crippled/otherwise inconvenianced by burn.

    Aerodactyl
    Azelf
    Breloom
    Bronzong
    Dragonite
    Empoleon
    Flygon
    Forretress- Bolded because with a burn payback and Earthquake are less effective to Heatran and Rotom
    Gengar
    Gliscor
    Gyarados
    Heatran
    Jirachi-only Scarf or the physical mix sets are heavily affected though
    Lucario
    Magnezone
    Metagross
    Ninjask
    Roserade
    Rotom
    Scizor
    Skarmory
    Tentacruel
    Togekiss
    Zapdos

    Out of the 24 pokemon there 11 are crippled by Burn. (9 if you disagree wth me and take away Bronzong and Forretress. Most of these physical threats are very common in OU (with the exceptions of Bronzong and maybe Forretress) and thus, Willl-o-wisp is not a waste.

    Still, I am very glad for your suggestions since spikes on Forretress did help my team, I just felt that it was near useless afterwards.

    @dws93rd
    Am was unable to test your suggestion today (time constrants) but will try to do so tomorrow. What would you recomend me taking out for bulky Starmie?

    @ Bad Ass
    Also congrats for figuring out that my team also had trouble with speady threats just from looking at a half finished threat list!

    Your suggestions were very helpful and I will do a final test run tomorrow before making the changes to the team. However I felt that snorlax did not help my team so much. Sure it helped heaps vs Starmie which was downright awesome. However it was compleate fodder for Skarmory (since I ran Pursuit over Crunch) (set I ran was Earthquake/Body Slam/Pursuit/Self Destruct) which would set up Spikes and rip my team to shreds.

    Vaporeon worked well and I have changed the EV spread on Vaporeon to what you suggested

    Scarfing Rotom I was unsure about but it worked great checking manythings such as Gengar (with no Sub) and Starmie. However I encountered trouble with Scarf Tar which would trap Rotom and then leave me with little answer to Gyarados. Jirachi was able to stop it (gyarados) sweeping in most cases but crippled Jirachi. Any ideas on fixing the scarf Tar vulnerability?

    Thanks to everyone who has rated so far. Please keep it up!
  8. Curtains

    Curtains

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    this is a stall team . But you lack phazers. you might want to try a roar heatran.Shaymin is a huge problem if jirachi is at low health or dead, just an fyi. This is a decent team. but watch out for twave ice beam blissey. Also beware of LO hydro pump starmie expecially late game as it can dominate this team. Sword dance jolly lucario with ice punch. is the only thing that this team hates. i give this team a 7/10. Its good but it loses to a ton of obscure threats.

    edit- try spikes over hp fire. your not going to be hitting much with hp fire.
  9. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    @ Curtains. Hey thanks for the rate. I was reading LoveDestinys Warstory about SubRoar Heatran so maybe thats an option. And yeah, Ice Beam Blissey causes me problems. I don't find it too common though but its still very irratating.

    I do disagree with you on a point however.

    SD Jolly Lucario even with Ice Punch cannot beat me unless it hits Gliscor in the switch since I still outspeed. If it does hit Gliscor with Ice Punch then I believe Rotom walls it unless it runs something like Close Combat/Swords Dance/Crunch/Ice Punch which pretty much screws me unless Roserade is alive in whch case I beat it. So no SD Lucario cannot beat me.

    Thanks for the heads up though against Shaymin and LO Starmie though and thanks for the rate out of 10. Awesome!

    Also I ran some calcs on Heatran vs Shaymin and yes it does threaten my team so maybe advice is needed on that. However I ran a calc and a Modest LO offensive Shaymin can Never KO my Heatran with an earthpower. It maxs out at 99%! Granted it has a 74% chance to KO with SR but thats pretty cool considering Heatran has a x4 weakness to ground attacks. Also the analysis recomends Timid which can only has a 20% chance to KO with SR. Anyway I may need a Shaymin check. so any Ideas?

    keep the rates comming everyone!
  10. agamemaker

    agamemaker

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    @ curtains
    Spikes is illegal with sleep powder or leaf storm.
  11. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    I just took a quick look at this team, so I'm not going all out.

    With Gliscor Give him an EV spread of 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Speed.
    252 Speed only let's you tie with Gliscor, which your team looks like it doesn't have too much trouble with. 216 Speed EV's still let you outspeed Lucario, and the rest I dumped into Def to better take random physical attacks.


    I also like the Sp. Def EV's on Vaporeon. I'm using one and it's a complete beast ^_^
  12. Bad Ass

    Bad Ass bring me coffee or tea
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    you should see if they have a tyranitar by swapping immediately out of gyarados to vaporeon. nobody will keep in gyarados on scarf rotom, even with a dd up.

    snorlax can't have pursuit and selfdestruct. its illegal. use pursuit / return / earthquake / fire punch. some double switching will offset skarmory. you could also try taunt on tyranitar over th coverage move to turn it into fodder. otherwise, fire punch deals a ton to all these sdef skarm, and play on your toes to scout for skarmory (e.g. double switcing from vaporeon to rotom or something)
  13. UuluM

    UuluM

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    One thing that pops out to me about this team is the lack of raw PHYSICAL power. Your Gliscor is bulky, and in nowhere near range of a physical powerhouse. The CB Snorlax is a great idea, since it hits as hard as a wrecking ball and gives you much needed balance. 5/6 Pokes in your team are special attackers, which makes you extremely vulnerable to Blissey/Cress/other special walls. Consider the CB Snorlax over Heatran (credits to Bad Ass, it was a great suggestion)
  14. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    O.K after an exhaustive testing session in which I trialed snorlax for the first time changes to the team have been made. I now have a Cleric on the team (vaporeon) and a Scarf Rotom to patch up the weaknees to Gyarados that the change in Vaporeons moveset brings.

    I also added an updated Team Conclusion and a 'special thanks' list (which is basically anyway who's suggestions I use). I also wrote up new comments on Vaporeon and Scarf Rotom since there comments did not apply (Rotoms took ages).

    Also. No CB Snorlax. I am realy Sorry Bad Ass. It did really work as it dealt to Gengar and Starmie. However I felt much more open to other threats than before. Also while double switching and things worked up to a point eventualy Snorlax needed to attack and when it did that was when things got annoying. Since it appears damn near everyone is using Gengar, (why) Return and Earthquake were used very little since a wide rage of pokemon resisted them and could set up on them. Fire Punch meant that Gyarados always got a nice switch which pissed me off if they attacked first turn or had a rapid spinner since SR would not wear it down. If I used pretty much any other attack it left me vulnerable to spikes from Skarmory. It pretty much laughed at me getting a free turn to do whatever it wanted. It was the CB that was the problem I think. Sure it got me a boost in power but it also meant that sweepers could set up easier and my team just does not have a strong enough core to keep taking attacks. Vaporeon and Jirachi were being relyed on more and more to set up Wishers to that Snorlax could keep Gengar at bay and to keep pokemon like Rotom healthy. It just put me under far too much pressure. I guess if it makes anyone feel better then maybe I just cannot play CB Snorlax as effectivaly as some of you can (such as Bad Ass).

    Anyway if anyone has other suggestions to the team then please post them. I still think this team needs work.

    Actually on a slightly off topic question does Snorlax have to have a CB or could it still work without one or somehing.

    Regardless,

    Have a Nice Day Everyone!
  15. agamemaker

    agamemaker

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2010
    Messages:
    18
    @ginganinja
    Gliscor, areodactyl, and flygon will actually switch in to hetran. gliscor is a wall that has an attack he doesn't really need and usualy fears sp attacks more any ways.(fire blast does70-83%) Aerodactyl is practicly never used out side lead position. and so at 1hp burn kos. Flygon will probably u-turn, burned eq does 81-96% scarfed.
  16. Towelie

    Towelie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    665
    Hi. This isn't exactly a huge rate, but for Rotom, I would change the spread to 252 Hp/252 Spe/4 SpA with a set of Thunderbolt/Shadow Ball/Trick/Will O' Wisp. This may seem odd but with max Hp, it can come in on certain threats and tank their hits much better. This Rotom can actually survive a Heatran Fire Blast after Rocks! This honestly doesn't need max SpA at all because Rotom still kills what it needs too. Against Tyranitar, you outspeed and can either WoW it, or Trick it depending on the situation. Shadow Ball is for Gengar and deals heavy damage to other Rotoms even with no investment. As for Heatran, I'm going to agree with Curtains and go with SubRoar which is extremely effective, shuffling stat uppers (cm jirachi after a bunch of boosts) and just being annoying as hell. It also spreads around hazard damage which is a plus. Hope I helped and gl!
  17. cheesesticks

    cheesesticks

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2010
    Messages:
    16
    You have massssssive DDDnite issues.

    Like...I can't think of a DDnite set that WON'T 6-0 you...

    Flygon and Kingdra you can deal with though.

    Below is the least Bulky DDNite you would ever find, and what you can to hurt it:

    All calculations are assuming 56/0 DDNite

    Heatran Flamethrower 22% - 25.9% (it doesn't care about burns as it will either Heal Bell/ stat up and steamroll you either way)

    Gliscor literally cannot touch it

    Vaporeon Surf 16.4% - 19.6%

    Rotom-H Thunderbolt 39.9% - 47% (will roost on you then once it has enough DD's to outspeed you it will simply setup on your ass)

    Roserade Leafstorm 16.4% - 19.3% (there is always Sleep Powder but that is by no means reliable due to misses & sleep clause)

    Jirachi unboosted Psychic 28.9% - 34.2%
    Jirachi +1 Psychic 43.2% - 51.2% (Nite is always beating you if it has EQ)

    So it can setup without a problem against 5 of your team....and sets up on every single one with LITTLE problems.

    In an attempt to fix this you could do the following without harming your team:

    -Use HP [ice] on Roserade, you have enough checks to Scizor along with surefire counters. Metagross and Heatran are also handled just fine by the rest of the team.

    -Switch out Gliscor for a Swampert with the spread 252HP / 200Def / 56SpDef. This keeps your Tyranitar insurance along with numerous other physical threats. You have Scarf Rotom-H for Lucario also. In return you would gain a decent counter/ hard check to DDNite.

    -Use HP [ice] on Rotom-H instead of Shadow Ball as you still maintain excellent coverage without losing ability to check a threat.

    -Final thing you could do to is to replace Heal Bell on Vaporeon with either Roar or Ice Beam, as you have Roserade to absorb Toxic Spikes and your team really doesn't care about status in general. You have a Thunderwave immunity in Gliscor (or Swampert), a Will-O-Wisp immunity in Heatran, and a Toxic immunity in Roserade. Roar will at least allow you to get rid of Dragonites dances and somewhat wear it down (this is very very shaky), but what I reccomend most is using Ice Beam for that immediate damage, it should either OHKO or leave it in range to be revenged.

    I don't think this weakness can be ignored due to Dragonite's rising usage. Making any of the above changes helps greatly as not only do you get more chances to KO Nite if it does set up (right now this is guaranteed), but you are limiting the opportunities it has TO set up.
  18. BlazeMurder

    BlazeMurder

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Messages:
    309
    Hello,

    You should change Hidden Power Fire to HP Ground on Roserade, for Heatran leads. Since you are weak to Dragonite you should go with this set for Heatran:

    Heatran@Choice Scarf
    Timid
    Evs: 6 hp/252spatk/252Spe
    Fire blast
    HP Grass
    Dragon Pluse

    It will allow to you revenge kill and keep many pokes in check.
  19. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Hey guys thaks for the Awesome rates.

    @agamemaker: Yeah that list was really just a list. I still think those pokemon you meantioned are still important to the list as.

    Gliscor: still does snot like a burn and I relish the oppotunities to set up on its weaker Eathquake. Granted its not as key as the others.

    Aerodactyl: its true that Aerodactyl is not seen much as a lead however I have been following Towlie's LO Aerodactyl with interest. Burn actually screws that version which is important as with Sandstorm Aerodactly becomes one of the best Heatran countrs.

    Flygon: Just to be frank I am not taking on Flygon with Heatran unless I have a Sub up with Heatran. Then Flygon can break my Sub all it wants its still getting burned and then my Job is done since now its attacks will do less damage. Remember any attacks doing reduced damage is great for my Wishers.
    Still I stress, it was just a list to show how burn is effective.

    @Towelie
    Hey thanks for the Rotom Evs will test right away.
    Also yeah I myself have consdered a SubRoar Heatran. I will test this however can you tell me what it is really doing. I don't run Spikes so hazard damage is pretty small and my Subs get broken more easily. Still I will test this anyway and see how it goes.

    @Cheesesticks: Wow and thanks for the advice. I always knew that Dragonite was a threat to this team but since this team was made in the Salamence era I focused more on Salamence (which granted was still a threat to it). Will try out all the things you suggested. Thanks so much!

    @BlazeMurder: Hmm I will actually disagree with HP ground on Roserade. Currently pretty much no Heatran runs Lum Berry so against a Heatran lead I just sleep it since I get 2 shots with my Focus Sash. Still I will test the Scarf Heatran you posted.

    THE RESULTS

    As some of you may be aware the team has changed again, this time a much larger one than the previous one.

    Roserade has HP Ice. This was suggested by Cheesesticks and it has had some use. He was correct though in that HP Fire is not needed so much as Metagross and Scizor are handled by most of my team.

    Swampert is in over Gliscor. This was perhapes the biggest change as I down lack a stall breaker on the Team. Still Gliscor was giving free switchs to Gyarados and Gengar which was very annoying. Swampert allows me to combat Dragon Types better (especially Dragonite) and it still sets up Rocks for me.

    Rotom has had its EV's changed so the spread Towelie suggested.

    Other Results

    Scarf Heatran was tested but it was found that with 2 choice users that were checking many similar things, it just was not worth it. Also It increased the dependancy on my Wishers.

    Vaporeon with Ice Beam/Roar. This was not used due to Swampert being used over Gliscor. With Vaporeon and Swampert both vulnerable to Toxic SPikes and no guarentee that Roserade would still be alive Heal Bell was needed more than ever. Also Vaporeon would often get Toxiced when trying to beat SubTran. This is a very bad thing for my team as Vaporeon is part of my key Core.

    Towelie: I was unable to find time today to test SubRoar Heatran. I will attempt to do this tommorrow if time allows. However what does Sub Heatran actually do for me. Swampert can phase if I need it to and it seems to me that SubRoar Heatran is oly viable on teams with a large number of Entry Hazards particularly spikes.

    Thanks everyone for the rates. However, Rotom is now one of 2 pokemon on my entire team that can actually damage stall. This means that if Blissey is not tricked a scarf then it is next to impossiable for my team to break through stall. Does anyone have any suggestions? I obviously need a secondary weapon against Stall but I would prefer that it sticks to the focus of the team.

    Anyway keep up the awesome rates guys!
  20. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    I belive I am entitled to a 24hr Bump
  21. KidX

    KidX

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    495
    Ok I got your PM.

    Anyways, I see that you have some trouble dealing with: Nape, Machamp, Starmie, Weavile, and Dragonite. Most of these threats can be handled by a mix azelf. Try out this set:

    Azelf @ Life Orb
    Ev's: 8 Atk 248 Sp. Atk 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid
    Ability: Levitate
    Moves:

    Fire Blast/ Flamethrower
    Psychic
    Thunderbolt
    Ice Punch

    This set helps takeout the threats to your team, here are some calc. to help:

    Azelf's Psychic vs. Physical nape: 186.3% - 219.8%

    Azelf's Thunderbolt vs. LO Starmie: 114.2% - 134.9%

    Azelf's Psychic vs. Sub + 3 Attacks Machamp: 110.2% - 130.5%

    Azelf's: Fire Blast vs. Choice Band Weavile: 129.9% - 153.3%

    Azelf's: Ice Punch vs. Cleric Dancer Dragonite: 83.9% - 99.5% (OHKO after SR)

    Unfortunately I have no idea where to suggest azelf without replacing other team members, anyways, this azelf has saved me time and time again, if you want you could opt for hp ice on zelf, but since nite invests more into sp. def instead of def ice punch is the better choice and ice punch has a higher base attack.

    Good Luck!
  22. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Messages:
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    Very nice team overall. However, I don't really see the purpose of two wishers, and you are undermining the true potential of Jirachi. I would recommend placing Substitute on Jirachi, as it makes him an oh-so-potent stand alone sweeper, blocking him from status:

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Timid
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 Spe
    -Calm Mind
    -Substitute
    -Psychic
    -Thunderbolt

    Another issue is obviously stall. I just don't see this team breaking apart its more frightening forces (i.e. SkarmBliss, SkarmTar, CeleTran, etc.). This is only exacerbated by the fact that you have nothing to kill Blissey other than Jirachi + Toxic Spikes, which is atrociously unreliable. That's why this team NEEDS a fighting type somewhere. Try an Infernape stallbreaker over Heatran:

    Infernape @ Life Orb
    Naive Nature
    EVs: 252 Atk/64 SpA/192 Spe
    -Close Combat
    -U-Turn/Grass Knot
    -Overheat
    -Stone Edge

    He fixes up your stall weakness somewhat, OHKOing or 2HKOing most of its members. Grass Knot is an option over U-Turn to murder Suicune and Swampert switch-ins, but then you lose the ability to scout.

    Those EVs on Vaporeon are really random, and I don't really see the purpose. Vaporeon is this team's only Infernape check, and Vappy will almost always want extra physical bulk over special bulk because his special defense is naturally high.

    Just use this one:

    Vaporeon @ Leftovers
    Bold Nature
    EVs: 252 HP/244 Def/12 Spe

    If you want a slightly more specially bulky spread, use this:

    Bold
    188 HP/252 Def/56 SpD/12 Spe
  23. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Hey everyone thanks for the Rates.
    @ Super Mario Bro.

    Infernape did stop all my stallissues however it also made wish passing much more difficult since its defences were poor. It also did not really work with Toxic Spikes. I was wondering if a MixNite would achieve the same thing but with more bulk handy.

    Thoughts?

    Anyway thanks to EVERYONE who rated this team. You have all been wonderful!
  24. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    MixNite seems like a good idea. You should definitely test it out if Infernape isn't working out too well.

    As for Infernape's issues with Toxic Spikes -- whatever. Your team already does a really good job at abusing them.
  25. Doctor Who?

    Doctor Who?

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
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    Not much of a rate but you try 252HP/252DEF @ Bold on Vaporeon since I noticed you highlighted Infernape in red in your threat list. With the evs you have now you are 2hkoed by Close Combat with max atk Infernape.

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