D/P/Pt OU Team X: A 3-4 RMT

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Pride, Apr 3, 2010.

  1. Pride

    Pride

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    295
    DJXO9: I’m going to start off by saying that this is easily my favorite team that I have ever personally made, and Is absolutely a blast to play with, kinda sucks to be against it. Once the team gains the momentum, its incredibly hard to get it back and win. The paralysis screws over a ton of the faster teams, and makes it so easy for the slower pokemon on our team to sweep. Each of the pokemon on our team has a ton of power, and any one of them is able to sweep through a given opposing team. I had a great time making it and playing with it, and I'm sure Pride would agree.

    Pride: This has been one of the best teams I've been a part of, and I am a little reluctant to even post it because it enjoys so many victories! Many teams do not have a way to deal with Paralyzed Pokemon, and this team does a fantastic job at team builders pay for that oversight. With a few surprise sets and many ways to victory (every single member is dangerous in its own way) is a very difficult team to play against, and an even more fun team to play with. Once it has the momentum... Its usually downhill for the opponent.

    The Team:

    [​IMG]

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 200 HP / 92 Sp Atk / 216 Spe
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)

    [​IMG] - Thunder Wave
    [​IMG] - Leaf Storm
    [​IMG] - Stealth Rock
    [​IMG] - U-turn

    To lead off the team Celebi was choosen, even though it was not an orginal member. Orginally Swampert was in the lead but after a few issues with it we dumped it and put our heads together and had the idea to use Celebi. It keeps the resist to Electric that we wanted and more. Its quick, its bulky, has U-Turn, has Stealth Rock... Anything not to love? Well a few things actually. Heatran and Infernape are instant switches. And we can't touch Metagross but we do get Stealth Rock up so its not a major issues. While those suck we do have the appropriate members to handle the different situations.

    EVs and Nature:

    216 Speed and Timid is to outspeed that douce Gliscor. The Special Attack was to guarantee the OHKO against Manaphy and 2HKO on Tyranitar, with Sand Storm. The rest is put in HP to give Celebi great bulk.

    Moveset:

    As we dive into the RMT, you'll notice that our team was almost built on using Thunder Wave and the lead is no different. Thunder Wave is excellent for slowing down some of the threats to our team... A noticable one is Tyranitar. Latias LOVES being faster then that damned Scarftar. if scarftar is crippled early on then latias has fun all game. Leaf Storm helps against Aerodactyl and Azelf as they take less damage from Stealth Rock, but the main benefit is hitting Manaphy for massive damage, unlike Grass Knot (which is the better move in general in OU) A base 140 attack is nothing to scoff at, even more so on a Pokemon that doesn't allow much set up due to Thunder Wave! Stealth Rock is the most defining move in the metagame, very few teams are seen without and even less teams are successful without it. Everyone knows what this is for and we, like everyone else, like to see Salamence and Gyarados lose 1/4 of its health on the switch. U-Turn is the final move, which is great for breaking the sash on azelfs or for simply gaining momentum early to mid game. I've also experimented with several other moves in this slot, most notable is HP Fire since it completely stops Scizors ability to switch into Latias if it took a HP Fire. With HP Fire, Celebi almost acts as a lure for Latias, injuring Tyranitar with Thunder Wave and Leaf Storm and hitting Scizor with HP Fire.

    ----------------

    [​IMG]

    Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 156 HP / 88 Atk / 96 Def / 168 Spe
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

    [​IMG] - Waterfall
    [​IMG] - Thunder Wave
    [​IMG] - Bounce
    [​IMG] - Dragon Dance

    EVs and Nature:

    Gyarados suffers from odd evs from a glance. They are just the bulkydos EVs in HP and Defense, and enough Speed EVs to outspeed Jolteon after a DD. The rest or put into Attack. With the spread and EVs, Gyarados is a nice blend of support, bulk, and power which is extremely helpful on the team.

    Move Set:

    Probably the oddest member on the team with the most unusual move set, but damn does it work well. Like Celebi, Gyarados uses Thunder Wave to give our team more support. And even helping itself if it can hit ScarfRotom on the switch and then have to not worry about it for the rest of the game. Dragon Dance seems odd on a set that runs Thunder Wave but really there is no better option, on our team. I suppose we could run Roar but we have nothing to abuse the switch (aka Spikes) so it seems like a waste, nor does it fit with the team. And after opponents sees Thunder Wave, even less expect Gyarados to be Jolly, so another potent threat in Jolteon can get wasted easily. The final thing to nail down was what move to pair with Waterfall as Gyarados has many options: Stone Edge, Earthquake, Return, and Bounce. All of them give Gyarados nice neutral coverage and all have their perks. Stone Edge hits other Gyarados, Salamence, and other Flying-types for SE damage. Earthquake is great for grounded Steels such as Metagross and Jirachis but leaves us open to Gyarados, Salamence, and Latias. Return has great neutral coverage and is naturally strong, but doesn't hit anything SE and doesn't gain STAB. And Bounce has solid power, backed by STAB, hits almost everything neutrally, and even has a 30% chance to paralyze the opponent! But has the side effect of being a 2 turn attack so the opponent always has a chance to switch. After some talking, we went with Bounce and its so excellent that I haven't even tried any of the other options.

    ----------------

    [​IMG]

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 164 HP / 168 Atk / 176 Spe
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

    [​IMG] - Thunder Wave
    [​IMG] - Iron Head
    [​IMG] - Fire Punch
    [​IMG] - Substitute

    While the team was not originally built around Jirachi, it seems that the team was built to support this Jirachi and it really is the most key member to the team. Bringing out this bad boy is almost just a rage quit from the opponent. Deadly effective, and one of the best anti-metagame Pokemon at the moment.

    EVs and Nature:

    A running theme on the team is bulk, even on offensive Pokemon. As such Jirachi is no exception. After playing with some numbers, I decided to reduce its attack down to 168 since it gains almost all the same ohkoes and 2hkoes as the 252 attack. Also because Jirachi's main job is to spread even more Thunder Wave, it was decided that Jirachi didn't need max speed (even though tying Salamence at times would be nice) and reduced it down. The remaining evs were placed into HP to give Jirachi some bulk for taking attacks if it needs to. The extra bulk is a god-send, and wouldn't trade it for the world.

    Move Set:

    In all seriousness, this move set is golden. Pure awesome. And the moveset really isn't flexible as all the moves really needed. Thunder Wave and Iron Head forms a deadly due where the opponent is much more unlike to not attack then actually attack. If scarfflinching was bad, then this must be hell. Substitute as an excellent pivot move, that allows for no predicting and gives Jirachi the chance to paralyze the opponent without taking damage. And even better when Jirachi keeps its substitute due to the opponent not moving. Fire Punch is the final move of the set, but most definitely is very useful. Fire Punch deals with all of the steels that try to use Jirachi to set up on, Magnezone is a big one as without Fire Punch we would be trapped and have to rely on a ton of Iron Heads to break it. Scizor is another Pokemon that tries to use Jirachi for some reason that I cannot explain but I will not complain.

    For a in-depth description of this Jirachi: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69025

    ----------------

    Machamp (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: No Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 244 Atk / 12 Spe
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)

    [​IMG] - Dynamicpunch
    [​IMG] - Substitute
    [​IMG] - Stone Edge
    [​IMG] - Payback

    EVs and Nature:

    The EVs are pretty self-explanitory, we took a little from attack to outsped other Machamp. No need worrying about some 4-8 speed clone. Other then that, max hp and near max attack.

    Move Set:

    Whenever Machamp hits the field, I almost expect something to die. Its coverage is awesome, very strong, and can ruin even solid switches like Gyarados due to Dynamicpunch. Speaking of Dynamicpunch is there nothing not to be glad about? Its 100% accurate with 100 base power with a 100% chance of inflicting confusing. That confusion is even more annoying when some pokemon start getting paralyzed and they opponent is put under pressure due to so many mons being paralyzed. Payback is the move that gives almost completely neutral coverage with just two moves. Payback is the perfect move for Rotom, solid chance to OHKO ScarfRotom on the switch if SR is up and about a 3hko on SleepTalk Rotom. Stone Edge is another great move, allowing Machamp to beat almost everything barring Gliscor maybe. Salamence, Gyarados, Zapdos, etc all fear Machamp due to Stone Edge. And finally there is Substitute, which is perhaps the best move in the game. Because of Machamps power and ability to 2HKO much of the game, it loves the chance to not predict the switch and hide safely behind a substitute. I doesn't have to worry about being burned or taking a potential ohkoing Draco Meteor from Salamence or Latias; it just sits back and launches a brutal attack.

    ----------------

    [​IMG]

    Heatran (M) @ Passho Berry
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 36 HP / 252 SAtk / 220 Spe
    Mild nature (+SAtk, -Def)

    [​IMG] - Explosion
    [​IMG] - Fire Blast
    [​IMG] - Earth Power
    [​IMG] - Hidden Power [Grass]

    EVs and Nature:

    Max Special Attack is a given on such a set, the speed goes above Jolly Tyranitar and the rest is in HP. We could possibly max it out since there are a lot of mons that run between 244-246 and we could get a jump on those slow Jirachi, Celebi, and Zapdos (although 2 have no business against Heatran). The remaining EVs go to HP to nigh-guarantee Heatran will survive +2 Manaphy Surf with Passho. Mild over Rash for that reason.

    Move Set:

    Heatran is the suicide bomber of the team, laying to waste any pesky bulky waters that get in the way such as Suicune, Vaporeon, Gyarados, Swampert, and the 3-4 exclusive, Manaphy, with either Explosion or HP Grass (aka Swampert). Removing them makes Gyarados' and Jirachi's life much easier, giving them more turns to attack rather then fleeing on site. Passho Berry also is a last ditch on Starmie, who is one of the biggest threats to our teams. As you can see it 2-ohkoes the entire team without question, so Heatran is insurance as long as its health is high enough to take the Hydro Pump. Another thing about explosion is that we can remove Blissey with it, although its easier said then done as its usually a chess match between the two. Fire Blast is the move of choice for power, and the STABed Fire attack is much needed on a team that has mild issues with Skarmory. And Earth Power is almost a useless attack to be honest. Really can't tell you why we run it due to being outsped by most Heatran's but I guess its nice to catch them on a switch or to hit Jirachi and Metagross with 100% acc instead of Fire Blast or to hit non-scarfTyranitar (although almost every ttar on suspect was scarfed).

    ----------------

    [​IMG]

    Latias (F) @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)

    [​IMG] - Draco Meteor
    [​IMG] - Dragon Pulse
    [​IMG] - Surf
    [​IMG] - Trick

    Specs Latias was the star of the suspect in my opinion on both our team and everyone elses team. A phenomenal threat to our oppositions and to ourselves when we had to play against it. Truly a devastating set that requires little prediction to plow through even well-prepared teams. So much so that all three of us believe to be Uber under the Support Category, but that's a discussion for another time.

    EVs and Nature:

    Even my disdain for 252/252 spreads couldn't deny that there is very little way to ev this. So max Special Attack, Max Speed, and then dumping the rest into HP.

    Move Set:

    With Choice Specs, Latias is a terror. Draco Meteor is one of the best attacks in the game just because it has the lone resist, and those steel types that do not have recovery usually can only switch in once. Draco Meteor its down side but its well worth it to get off one incredible attack. Dragon Pulse is the end-game move, and due to its solid power and Latias good speed its very easy to finish off a team thats been battered and paralyzed through out the course of the match. After playing this set for so long, Surf is probably the best lead off move for Latias. Besides Blissey and Snorlax, it generally 2hkoes all of its usual switches like Jirachi, Scizor, Skarmory, Metagross, and the famous Scarftar. Between Surf and Dragon Pulse, Latias hits everything neutrally expect for Empoleon. Trick is the final move of the set and probably the move I used least on the set. Its uses are great such as crippling Blissey into using a single move, or helping against some of the cm machines like Jirachi, Suicune, and Manaphy but in almost all situations I'd rather keep my Specs just because it loses so much power. Thunderbolt could go here but, in suspect, Manaphy was always ohkoed by Draco Meteor. Both Trick and Thunderbolt have their uses, with Trick having more so its stayed on the set.
  2. DJXO9

    DJXO9

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    Messages:
    873
    Team Building, Threatlist, and an added bonus

    Team Building:

    So starting off, Pride and I both wanted to do 3-4, and were of the mindset that Latias was Uber. I had done a few matches with a team I had quickly thrown together, just to get a feel of the metagame. Pride hadn’t started yet, so we decided we should build a team together.

    Obviously the first member of our team was Specs Latias. We both wanted abuse her in order to get more support for an Uber vote. This was the best way to do that.

    [​IMG]

    The next addition was Heatran. In my previous team, I had used a PasshoTran, and had mild success. With all the water attacks flying around and how Heatran attracts them, we thought he would be a good addition. Heatran and Latias have pretty good synergy too.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Taking a step back quick, we realized our team was already becoming weak to Tyranitar, who proved to be quite popular during 3-4. Pride and I both believe Substitute to be one of the best moves in the game, and pretty quickly agreed a SubChamp would patch up this forming Tyranitar weakness.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Taking a second step back, the team looked quite slow in general, except for Latias. There are two ways to help make a team faster. Either add faster members, or work on paralyzing the opposing team. So that Heatran and Machamp could both abuse their hard hitting attacks, we decided to use paralysis. We had both been seeing some Thunder Wave Jirachis around, and decided to add that. I’m not quite sure how we decided on this set for Jirachi, but it is AMAZING. I recently wrote an analysis for it because something that good should be made known, but of course, not without us abusing it first.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    At this point our team was really coming together. We still had a few type weaknesses to sort out though. We had a ground weakness to sort out, and still wanted to add more paralysis support if possible. Gyarados fit those characteristics, and covered some other weaknesses too. We didn’t want to use a RestTalk set though with Thunder Wave because we wanted to stay with the hard hitting nature of the team. We then initially went with the Bulky Gyarados set on the site, but with Thunder Wave over Taunt. Pride though wanted to give Gyarados some speed though in order to outspeed Jolteon. The extra speed ended up coming in useful, even making one person ragequit after Gyarados outsped and OHKOd his Jolteon.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Now for the lead. At this point the team was pretty much there. At the first glance, we realized we had only one resistance to electricity in Latias. We then put in Swampert as the lead for not much reason besides his electric immunity and ability as a solid lead.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    We each did a few matches one at a time, just watching each other ladder. Pride wasn’t caring much for the Swampert lead as it didn’t really fit in with the team. We knew we still needed to keep the resistance to electric and hopefully Stealth Rock. Looking over some other leads, we noticed Celebi, whose Grass STABs would be helpful at deterring Manaphy. We gave it Leaf Storm Stealth Rock and Thunder Wave to stay with the paralysis theme. In the 4th slot, we put Hidden Power [Fire] to add coverage. After a few more battles, I was not liking Celebi. It was too easy to switch in on especially if at -2. To fix this, I gave my Celebi U-turn over Hidden Power [Fire]. After laddering for a bit with Pride watching, I liked U-turn a lot better and Pride started using it too. And that is how the team came together.

    Final Product:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]






    Threat List (or How to Handle Threats)

    (Stolen Borrowed from team Sugarless GiRL)

    [​IMG]Manaphy:
    -Initial Switch: Celebi and Latias are some of the best switches in the game against this, both can ohko 0/0 spreads (the most common we saw) with Leaf Storm and Draco Meteor.
    -RainRest: Probably the most difficult set for the team to play against. If it used CM on the switch neither Celebi or Latias can 2hko this monster. Our best bet is the suicide Heatran bomb but the opponent probably thinks something is up if we willingly switch it into Manaphy. Outside of that Latias can use Trick, or Gyarados can attempt to set up along side of it with DD and Bounce.
    -Tail Glow: All variations of Tail Glow (Wacan or LO) are handled by Latias. Draco Meteor is a straight ohko, Thunderbolt isn't even needed. If Latias is gone, Thunder Wave can actually work since these Manny do not have Rain Dance. Heatran can also explode even after a Tail Glow.
    -ScarfPhy: Often runs U-Turn so it is not as safe for Latias and Celebi, so Gyarados takes over as the main switch into these.


    [​IMG]Scizor:
    -Initial Switch: We have several very solid switches with Gyarados and Heatran. Both are good initial switches since the only Pokemon Scizor is coming in on is Latias and Celebi so the move will probably be U-Turn or Pursuit.
    -SD Variant: Again, Scizor is well covered. Scizor isnt sweeping much with Jirachi's Fire Punch, Heatran, and Gyarados around. Should be a non-issue.
    -CB Variant: It has a tough time getting in even on Latias and Machamp since they hit very hard with Surf and Dynamic Punch respectfully. Again, Gyarados and Heatran are both stopping this resisting most of its moves. Heatran has to be careful around Superpower or Brick Break.

    [​IMG]Salamence:
    -Initial Switch: Salamence is always a tough match up just because of the amount of sets it is able to run. Jirachi is probably the first switch so hopefully we don't get hit with Fire Blast or Earthquake when it comes in. What is good is that Salamence usually has a tough time setting up on anything due to so much TWave, Machamp's Stone Edge, Heatran's Explosion, and Latias dealing with any variation that isn't boosting its speed.
    -MixMence: Classic Mixmence is more dangerous due to is ability to heal but the switch is usually defendant on what's out. It requires some careful playing to deal with but luckily Latias deals with them for the most part even if it comes in after a sac.
    -DDMence: If we are lucky, we hit this with Thunder Wave on the switch. Like Mixmence it has a hard time setting up due to everything having a way to cripple it. Gyarados can help reducing its power with Intimidate.
    -SpecsMence: Predict around its moves, even resisted attacks hurt. Latias is a certain revenge if needed.
    -CBMence: Scout with Jirachi and Gyarados, like Specs Latias can revenge once it gets in.

    [​IMG]Heatran:
    -Initial Switch: Gyarados is the main switch but with its weakness to Stealth Rock it can't come in that often. Latias is the back up after its set is known.
    -Lead Shuca/SashTran: Celebi has to switch out, Gyarados comes in but has to be careful incase Heatran decides to explode right on the spot. Unfortunate but it happens.
    -ScarfTran: Not much else to do but predict around it and hopefully nail it a couple of times on the switch. This version hates Thunder Wave even more the usual so it usually catches one from Jirachi.
    -SpecsTran: Much like ScarfTran but Latias doesn't need TWave to revenge.
    -LO Tran: We prefer to switch Latias into this one because the threat of Explosion is much more great, so Latias can outspeed unlike Gyarados. Gyarados is back up.
    -SubHeatran: Gyarados handles these nicely, only fearing Toxic and Explosion. Latias functions similarly against it.

    [​IMG]Gyarados:
    -Initial Switch: If Celebi is still in good health then it comes out first. Gyarados is a solid back up thanks to Intimidate and Thunder Wave. Like Salamence it has a hard time setting up but we lack Super Effective moves to remove it as quickly as we would like.
    -Leftovers DD: Usually fairly bulky but since it isnt as strong or as fast as its LO counterpart our team handles it much better. Celebi can cripple with Thunder Wave / Leaf Storm. Our own Gyarados does nicely. Heatran can explode if it hasnt gotten a DD in, and Machamp can usually take a hit and get off a Stone Edge.
    -Life Orb DD: Tough because of LO but it can tear through its health pretty quickly thanks to SR and LO. Same process as before, Celebi and Gyarados to weaken its Attack.
    -Thunder Wave or Substitute: Some of these have Bounce so Celebi has to tread more carefully but otherwise its handled much the same as the other sets and still has a hard time setting up.

    [​IMG]Rotom-A:
    -Initial Switch: Heatran usually a solid switch but repeated T-Bolts hurt. Latias is usually fairly safe but has to be careful around Shadow Ball
    -Scarf: This is usually has to be taken out from repeated switches and hopefully landing a Thunder Wave on it. Celebi, Latias, and Heatran rotate the switches until its defeated.
    -Restalk: A bitch to take down... Very tough. Best bet is Heatran and Latias heavy hits.
    -SubCharge Beam: Not a great threat. A majority of the team outspeeds and is able to land crippling damage. Machamp can 2hko it most of the time. Probably the least worrisome set.

    [​IMG]Latias:
    -Initial Switch: Jirachi is the safest choice, with Heatran being close second. A scary threat to say the least.
    -Specs: Jirachi usually but it has to be careful around Surf. Heatran is a suicide bomber against this thanks to Passho. All the other mons can't really switch in. Latias and Gyarados can come in on Surf though. Hopefully Ive hit this with Thunder Wave.
    -Scarf: Read above but much easier to handle thanks to its much lower attack.
    -LO Sweeper: Jirachi does pretty nicely, the lo Surf /HP Fire hurt but I always get the Thunder Wave off. Heatran is back up with Explosion
    -CM Latias: Not that bad to deal with. Jirachi is a safe bet and all other members can cripple with their moves. Payback, Thunder Wave, Draco Meteor. Might be the easiest set to deal with.

    [​IMG]Tyranitar:
    -Initial Switch: Machamp all the way. Resisting its STABed moves then okhoing with Dynamicpunch? Perfect. Jirachi and Gyarados can come in on predicted attacks if machamp is too low of health to come in.
    -CBTar: Predict the attack. Machamp is the safest choice and the rest of the group resist some of its moves so they can come in at some point. Jirachi and Gyarados outspeeds it and can land super effective attacks.
    -ScarfTar: Read above but i cannot use Jirachi or Gyarados unless it is hit with Thunder Wave (maybe Celebi perhaps?)
    -LO Tar: Much like the above two. Jirachi, once again, gets more points here since it is faster.
    -DDTar: Machamp handles this too but if its gone... Smart switches between Gyarados and Jirachi is needed. If its hit with Thunder Wave, then read CBTar.
    -BOAH Variants: Machamp deals with these. Jirachi is fairly safe if it doesnt have a Fire Move. Gyarados rocks if it lacks Thunderbolt.
    -CurseTar: One of the easier sets to deal with. Machamp eats it up, Jirachi does fine. Even Latias and Celebi can do something with Trick and Leafstorm.

    [​IMG]Metagross:
    -Initial Switch: Celebi is a strong switch thanks to Thunder Wave but can't do much else. Machamp can usually take an attack but is in a world of hurt if it has Zen Headbutt. Gyarados resist the STAB which is always nice. Heatran is also very nice thanks to its STABed Fire Blast and resistance to it STABed attacks.
    -CBGross: Hits hard... No way around except to predict. Heatran covers a lot of its moves and doesn't mind Thunderpunch that much. Jirachi is largely the same. Gyarados only fears Thunderpunch.
    -MixGross: Not that bad. Heatran is perfect thats to resisting the common attacks this set has. Gyarados fairs solid thanks to these often lacking Thunderpunch.
    -Agiligross: A hard set thanks to it increasing its speed. Celebi can do okay if it can land a Thunder Wave. Thunder Wave it then have Heatran or Jirach take it from there. Lum variations are hard.
    [​IMG]Lucario:
    -Initial Switch: Gyarados is the (Ma)champ! And Jirachi can revenge any variation.
    -SD: It needs some serious misplay to set up but either way... Not sweeping through Gyarados without Stone Edge and Jirachi is back up.
    -Specs: More Gyarados and moar Jirachi.

    [​IMG]Infernape:
    -Initial Switch: Latias is always solid, except for U-Turn... Then the job has to go to Gyarados.
    -MixApe: Latias can take of this. If Latias is gone then Gyarados. Best thing is to just not let it set up.
    -Physical Ape: Latias outspeed and ohkoes. Gyarados has to be careful because of SE and TP but it can weak it with Intimidate for maybe Machamp.
    -ScarfApe: Just predict it and play around it.

    [​IMG]Jirachi:
    -Initial Switch: Heatran is the go to switch against Jirachi as it handles with widest variety of sets.
    -Scarf Jirachi: Heatran and Gyarados are amazing against this. Our own Jirachi can play against it if its trying to Iron Head or even Thunderpunch or Ice Punch.
    -Expert Belt Jirachi: This can run a ton of different ways... But few run HP Ground so Heatran is almost always safe. Our own Jirachi can go against it and Celebi can always use Thunder Wave to help against it.
    -CM Jirachi: More Heatran. This one is tough to deal with if Heatran is gone. Best bet is to Trick with Latias.
    -Support Jirachi: Heatran is still the champ but it sucks to take a Thunder Wave.

    [​IMG]Gengar:
    -Initial Switch: Gengar is a tough cookie. Jirachi is the best bet but can be 2hkoed. Machamp can also take a single attack and ohko with Payback. If all else fails, Latias can challenge the speed tie.
    -LO Gengar: Basically the above. Gengar is much easier to deal with if it takes a Thunder Wave.
    -ScarfGengar: Because of it being locked into a single move, it is much easier to deal with. All of my mons can do something against this set, depending of the move.
    -SubGengar: A lot of these lack Thunderbolt so Gyarados might have a chance... But once again Jirachi.

    [​IMG]Swampert:
    -Initial Switch: Celebi without a doubt. All of the mons, barring Jirachi can usually smack it for decent damage.
    -Standard Mixpert: Celebi and its Leaf Storm is great. While not really a switch Heatran can also do great damage with HP Grass. Swampert also won't like Machamp and its 100% confusion.
    -CBPert: Not really an issue thanks to Gyarados and Celebi both resisting its STAB. Latias also boost the same thing and can do crippling damage with Draco Meteor.
    -Cursepert: Celebi and Heatran both can knock it for great damage. Heatran cannot ohko but with Passho its a non-issue. Gyarados can also set up along side of these set without fear of roar.

    [​IMG]Blissey:
    -Initial Switch: Machamp is the safest. Jirachi could battle Blissey but its not really a risk I'd want to take. Heatran can explode in a pinch.
    -WishBliss: Machamp loves this set even more as it can set up a Substitute on a Protect.
    -Non-wish Bliss: More Machamp. Granted Blissey can be annoying for this team if Machamp is gone, but if its around... Then its all good.

    [​IMG]Azelf:
    -Initial Switch: Heatran resist all of its most common moves and usually is the ideal switch. Latias can do much the same as Heatran but is much more afraid of the Explosion threat.
    -Lead Azelf: Usually its a U-Turn to Heatran and see what happens from there.
    -NP Azelf: Heatran is the best switch but some of these may carry HP Fighting or HP Ground. Latias can take on most of its moves barring Explosion. Its best just to not let it set up.
    -Scarf Azelf: Heatran is a solid switch. Because it cannot switch its moves, I can take advantage and use mons that normally wouldn't want to go against. it.

    [​IMG]Starmie:
    -Initial Switch: Ew. This is the biggest problem the team faces. Starmie is a cruel Pokemon. Celebi is a good switch on the obvious Hydro Pump but...
    -LO Starmie:T This either requires some risky switching or a Heatran explosion. Celebi is the nicest switch since it can come in on Hydro Pump and not die on the next turn. Latias does much of the same but, like Celebi, has to be careful around Ice Beam. Heatran is the last ditch against this and probably the most common way we deal with Starmie. Starmie sucks.
    -Rapid Spinner: Not as bad as it usually lacks Ice Beam, so Celebi and Latias are much more free to switch in. Machamp can also deal with it if it must.
    -Choice Starmie: Have to predict the resisted attack so, Celebi, Jirachi, Latias get the most action.

    [​IMG]Gliscor:
    -Initial Switch: Celebi is the strongest since it outspeeds Gliscor, can do great damage with Leaf Storm, and doesn't fear toxic. Gyarados and Latias are the back up.
    -SD Gliscor: We probably going to Celebi and Latias more against SD Gliscor then other sets. Gyarados can do okay if it lacks Stone Edge but thats a big if.
    -Stall Gliscor: Probably its most common set, Celebi does fine as do Latias and Gyarados.
    -BP Gliscor: Hit it hard with whatever is out. Can be difficult to deal with depending on who its partners are. Lum Metagross is rough.

    [​IMG]Vaporeon:
    -Initial Switch: Like most Bulky Waters, Celebi is the best switch... And one of my only switches. Latias can do grave damage but Vaporeon tends to scout its move with Protect.
    -WishProtect Vaporeon: Basically the above, Celebi is the best but the support it gives its teammates can be difficult to handle at times. Machamp can make its life difficult and Heatran can explode if we are careful enough to get around protect.
    -SpecsVaporeon: Like all Specs and Band sets they are potential dangerous but they can be predicted around. Jirachi, Celebi, and Latias handle this department.

    [​IMG]Magnezone:
    -Initial Switch: Well its probably coming in on Jirachi or Heatran so there is really no switch but if it does then Latias can do okay thanks to its Electric resistance and powerful surf.
    -Substitute: If Jirachi goes down against Magnezone and for some reason it has a sub up... I'm probably losing something else. It really cant threaten Latias outside of explosion so going to her is the next move.
    -Scarf: The only Pokemon it really threatens is Heatran if its low on health but otherwise its going to be ohkoed by Fire Blast. Latias and Celebi are the core to switch between on its attacks.
    -Life Orb Variant: Handled much like the substitute set, just a little stronger.

    [​IMG]Zapdos:
    -Initial Switch: Zapdos can be a very dangerous opponent. Celebi and Latias both resist its STABed moves and Machamp can also switch in after a sac, which may be needed.
    -Defensive: Its not as fast as Celebi, so we go to the pixie for the Thunder Wave then possible to Machamp to remove it with Stone Edge. Latias can also due very well with Draco Meteor.
    -Offensive: Latias does well but lacks recovery. The next best idea is to Thunder Wave and beat it down... But we've probably lost two mons doing that.
    -Choiced: Celebi, Jirachi, Latias can rotate between its attacks until Stealth Rocks and some damage on the side remove it.

    [​IMG]Machamp:
    -Initial Switch: One of the most difficult Pokemon to deal with. The general game plan is to go to Gyarados for the Intimidate and then to Celebi. Even with three fighting resist it can do some damage just because of confusion.
    -ResTalk: Either it lacks Stone Edge or Payback, depending on that its either Gyarados or Celebi that go to war against it. Latias also outspeeds and can Trick or Draco Meteor it.
    -Substitute: Usually you want to stop it from even setting up a sub in the first place but it happens from time to time. Again smart switching and Celebi and Gyarados should come through without too much hassle... Or without either one dying.

    [​IMG]Kingdra:
    -Initial Switch: While Celebi is generally the best idea, it can be tough because of how common Substitute is and it'll probably set up even more after a Leaf Storm drop. Gyarados can do reasonably well with its own Dragon Dance and Thunder Wave.
    -DD Kingdra: Baiting the Outrage is a real chance thanks to Gyarados and Latias where Heatran can Explode on it. Either way, Heatran probably can explode on it thanks to Passho. Only a real problem if it gets too many DDs.
    -Rain Dance Mix: Most teams are very weak to this... And so are we. It requires very good prediction and even resisted Water attacks hurt in the rain. Celebi does much better against this since it lacks Sub. Waiting out the Rain time is usually the only option.
    [​IMG]Breloom:
    -Initial Switch: Spore sucks. Who's idea was it to make a 100% sleep move... Celebi resist its STAB moves but cant do much else. Heatran can ohko it but can't do anything if it has a Sub up. Gyarados is a strong option as is Jirachi. Just depends on the situation and who is the most expendable to the team to take the sleep.
    -SubPuncher: Pretty much the above. Most of the team outspeeds Breloom, so it should have a hard time finding room to actually start it going.
    -ScarfLoom: Between Celebi, Latias, and Gyarados this should be a non-issue as long as I'm careful around Stone Edge.
    [​IMG]Skarmory:
    -Initial Switch: The team has mild Skarmory issues. Celebi and Jirachi are basically set up bait. Gyarados will just get ww away. Machamp does heavy damage and Skarmory can't actually roost infront of it. Heatran and Latias are the best match ups ohkoing or 2hkoing Skarmory. Spikes are a bitch do deal with if it got more then a single layer up.
    -Spiker: Heatran and Latias and hope the layers don't start getting too high.

    [​IMG]Bronzong:
    -Initial Switch: Gyarados and Machamp do just fine using it to set up. Jirachi and Heatran also are solid choices, depending on the situation.
    -Standard Leftovers / Light Clay: A lot of the team threatens Bronzong greatly. As long as I can keep the pressure on it, it shouldn't set up more then once if even once at all.
    -CMZong: Heatran has almost no threat from this. Jirachi resist the majority of the attacks seen on this set as well. Machamp is faster but has to be weary of the Psychic threat. Latias also has Trick if need be.
    -Trick: Heatran usually does fine but it does suck if it receives a Iron Ball or Macho Brace or a locking item. Machamp also fares very well.
    [​IMG]Celebi:
    -Initial Switch: While Heatran really doesn't want to take the Thunder Wave its not as bad as some of the other Pokemon taking it. My own Celebi works in a pinch as well because of U-Turn.
    -Defensive: Heatran does very well because they tend to never have Earth Power. Machamp does better then one would think since they don't hit hard and payback can do roughly 45% to them. Latias can also trick if its an issue. It has a hard time even walling the pokemon its suppose to thanks to Gyarados having Bounce.
    -CM / CM Pass: CM Celebi is much tougher because several have Earth Power, if it doesnt then Heatran should do fine. If it does... Latias can Trick?
    -SD Pass: Heatran does just fine but what is real troublesome is if it passes to something. Probably won't be Metagross but something like Gyarados or Salamence is dangerous.
    -Choice: Heatran destroys this Celebi and doesn't even mind a Scarf or Specs if it tricks.
    [​IMG]Flygon:
    -Initial Switch: Flygon is difficult to deal with... Resist Thunder Wave and can revenge many of the members of the team. Gyarados is relatively sate. Until the set is known.
    -Scarf: The most common set, the only real way to deal with it is if it gets locked into Outrage which is easier said then done since it'll likely U-Turn from Latias and Thunderpunch / Stone Edge Gyarados. Scarfgon is one of the most dangerous Pokemon to the team.
    -Band: Slightly easier to play against because its slower the latias, so a revenge is now much easier to do. Still a threat however, unless I predict around it.
    -Roost LO/Stall: Much like the Band set its slightly easier to deal with, if only because it can be revenged. Celebi can do something against these because they lack U-Turn more ofthen.

    [​IMG]Suicune:
    -Initial Switch: Celebi is a great switch since its faster then any variation and has that Super Effective Leaf Storm. Gyarados is a solid switch since not that many actually use HP Electric.
    -Offensive CMer: Luckily, this thing kills itself. Celebi can smack it around from great damage and Life Orb recoil will take care of the rest. If worse comes to worse, Heatran has its Passho for reasons much like this...
    -ResTalk: Celebi isn't the best switch into this sometimes cause the often rest the first time Celebi comes if and after a Calm Mind, Leaf Storm is not an ohko. Gyarados is usually better since it resist Surf and can set up right along side of it. If all else fails, Heatran can go boom.
    -Roar: Celebi can do a lot of damage to this set since they tend to not have Rest, so it just keep coming in and firing off some Leaf Storms. All though not mentioned on other sets, Machamp can really dish out some solid damage against any Suicune, and Heatran can go boom if its that annoying.

    [​IMG]Jolteon:
    -Initial Switch: Jolteon is the reason why the originally had Swampert because its STABed Electric attacks can hurt. To make matters worse, it absorbs Thunder Wave so it has a very real chance of staying at a high health all game. The switch mostly depends on the health of Celebi and Latias, which ever is higher is coming out. This mon is often killed by Gyarados, thankfully, since it believes its faster after a DD because of Thunder Wave.
    -Specs: One of the hardest sets to deal with if it predicts out predicts us. So many things can go wrong. Celebi and Latias get out on Thunderbolt (STABed base 140 moves ftw), and hopefully Jirachi and Heatran get some action on Shadow Ball and HP Ice. Machamp also can come in after a sac and take a single attack and ohko it.
    -Substitute: Seen less often then Specs but can still cause problems. Thankfully its so much weaker. Its often passing those Substitute to something else, so usually the response is Latias because Dragon has only its single resist (meaning the likely recipient is Lucario or Metagross). Substitute speeds up the killing process hopefully.
    -Charge Beam: Handled much like the Specs set but the lack of a scarfer can be a problem here especially if Jolteon gets +2 then the team could be in grave trouble.

    [​IMG]Empoleon:
    -Initial Switch: Ahhh one of the only Pokemon that resist Water/Dragon. Like a few other threats, this is one that is played with the mind set of just not letting it set up and its only real chance to set up is on Latias. Since Empoleon rarely carries HP Electric, Gyarados is the initial response.
    -Lead: Celebi and Empoleon are at a stalemate if it lacks Ice Beam, both set up SR then we scout the switch or break the sash if it stays in and act accordingly to what the opponent gives us. Gyarados and Celebi do nicely all game long against the lead.
    -AgilityPetaya: If it sets up... Then it could be game. Hopefully its trying to set up on one of the Thunder Wavers and it gets hit by hit. Gyarados can attempt to set up by it because Waterfall will break its subs 100% of the time. One of the hard Pokemon do deal with and the best game plan is to just stop the set up with whatever is out.
    -Specs: Like all item-boosting pokemon just switch to the resist. 3 Water resist, 4 Grass resist, 2 Electric resist, and 2 ice resist. We should be fine as long as we don't get caught in the wrong attack.

    [​IMG]Forretress: Heatran can roast it with Fire Blast, just needs to tread lightly incase its a rare Earthquake. Jirachi can use Fire Punch, Gyarados can set up if it doesn't have Explosion, and Machamp sets up a sub and fires off some Dynamicpunch.

    [​IMG]Electivire: uhh lol... Surprisingly, Electivire is a fairly big threat. It can be really easy to get a boost off of Thunder Wave and outspeed the entire team. Generally though, the damage output just isn't enough, and can fairly easily be revenged. If it happens late game, with damage spread around, we might just get swept by an Electivire.

    [​IMG]Togekiss: Will quite likely get paralyzed if switching into Celebi. Jirachi wipes the floor with it, as well as Specs Draco Meteor.

    [​IMG]Weavile: Jirachi, Gyarados, and Machamp are some of the best switches in D/P/P for this guy... But that could be after its killed something :/ Hopefully its taken a Thunder Wave so it cannot kill both Latias and Celebi.

    [​IMG]Aerodactyl: Usually seen in the lead role. His attacks do very little to Celebi and will generally lead with Taunt. That allows Celebi to hit hard with Leaf Storm. Generally Aerodactyl will SR at that point, allowing a -2 Leaf Storm to finish it.

    [​IMG]Mamoswine: Mamoswine can't be paralyzed which sucks. Regardless, Jirachi flinches with Iron Head, and Machamp won't take much from his attacks.

    [​IMG]Snorlax: Machamp is the #1 Snorlax counter. Latias can trick CurseLax, and Jirachi can abuse that ever-so-beautiful set.

    [​IMG]Dusknoir: Dusknoir can't do much to Heatran, who could also get a Flash Fire boost from WoW. Jirachi can abuse ParaFlinch and usually beat it that way.

    [​IMG]Smeargle: Like Roserade its getting a sleep in, but after that Jirachi usually comes in and starts setting up some fun with Iron Head and everything. Multiple layers of spikes or toxic spikes can hurt after a while.

    [​IMG]Ninjask: Virtually never seen outside the lead spot, so its often getting in a sub, SD, and possible +3 speed to whatever it wants. The best bet is to go to Machamp set up a sub, then try and do as much damage as possible to the receiver and get a confusion in. Heatran can also do somewhat of the same with Fire Blast then Explode on its predicted pass.

    [​IMG]Tentacruel: Toxic Spikes really cut the effectiveness of Celebi and Machamp, and Tentacruel isn't easily stopped actually. Machamp can hit with Stone Edge on its weaker defensive stat and it won't like Latias' boosted Draco Meteor since it cannot recover.

    [​IMG]Dragonite: Bulkier then its more used counter part but it is still handled in the same way. Runs Outrage less often so it isn't as easy to trap but the same things apply to it. Thunder Wave, Gyarados, and Latias revenge if it doesn't have a DD.

    [​IMG]Hippowdon: Celebi can maim it with Leaf Storm, Latias has its Dragon attacks and Surf to ohko or do heavy damage, and Heatran can knock off some of its health. It doesn't want to come in on Gyarados or Machamp really thanks to confusion. Its really only a threat to Jirachi. Should not be a problem.

    [​IMG]Roserade: As a lead its probably putting something to sleep, unless we get lucky with a miss. But after that Latias and Jirachi can deal with it. Heatran also is great if it does not have HP Ground (most, if not all, do not).

    [​IMG]Porygon-Z: Half of the members are faster then it, and Heatran resist the most common attacks it carries. Not to mention that it literally can't switch in without being crippled.

    [​IMG]Cresselia: This actually could be a threat if it was more common. If it doesn't have rest then Jirachi can TWave and Iron Head for the win, Latias can also trick if need be. Its not a great offensive threat so if its the final Pokemon, it will probably be stalled out of PP.

    [​IMG]Heracross: Gyarados is as good of a switch you will get in Gen 4. Stone Edge is worrisome but thats about it. Jirachi and Latias revenge non-scarfed versions, and prediction handles the CB set.

    [​IMG]Umbreon: Machamp can rock it all game long, as can most of the team as Umbreon is a non-existent offensive threat. As we don't let it set up +3 Curses and pass out, its a non-issue.

    [​IMG]Alakazam: Because of its speed and ability, it could be annoying. Jirachi handles it very well, Gyarados can do damage, and Celebi resist many of its moves.

    By popular demand, here is a video showing the power of the team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGguFhHmSmw GG sprinkles lol
  3. Plus

    Plus I am the stone that the builder refused
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,343
    Cool team, I believe I remember playing you a bunch of times as well as playing undisputed and djx with it. Since 3-4 is over I'm not going to give a *proper* rate per se, but just point out the DDmence weak you guys had a bit of trouble with from what I recall. Your Twave shenanigans were pretty annoying, though I was never keen on you guys running paralysis on half your team lol. I also remembered Rotom-a being a little of an annoyance for you guys, though ultimately you should be playing around it at this point.

    Interesting team, Latias for Uber :)
  4. undisputed

    undisputed
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    2,107
    Really the only move on the team that Mence could set-up a DD on is Latias's Specs Surf. Otherwise it can't get a DD unless there is some bad misplay.
  5. tophway

    tophway

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    347
    Read this RMT and loved it. Conventional pokes with less conventional sets and EV spreads are always fun, and it looks like you worked hard to create synergy. I also appreciate the format of the threat list, addressing each popular set.

    The only worry Id have using this team are special walls Blissey and Snorlax, as if Machamp is down your remaining physical attackers are not as beefed up as you might want. Then again, you do have Trick, Explosion, and Iron Head flinching to help. Enjoyed the team and read!
  6. DJXO9

    DJXO9

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    Messages:
    873
    I remember playing you a lot at the beginning. That Empoleon lead was a bitch. Our team in general is weak to strong water attacks, and Heatran can only mess up one of them. After that, if the opponent has an endgame Starmie, and Heatran is gone, its pretty hard to pull out the win.

    :( at OU latias

    Thanks!
  7. Faint

    Faint It's just business.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,552
    Around the early days of D/P, I made a team using 5/6 of your pokes, but obviously they were completely different since using Celebi as a lead back then was as rare as Heracross is now. But yea it was a great core and it worked amazing.

    Anyways, did you ever consider Magnezone? It would be great when paired up when Latias. Sure Latias can 2HKO Scizor with Surf, but unless you save her for last you may be forced to use Draco Meteor on something like Gyarados to guarantee a kill. Scizor would then just swoop in and Pursuit your -2 SpA Latias. I just think that with Magnezone would help you out a lot, and if you did consider her but didn't use her, by all means keeps what you have now.

    Anyways a pretty big weakness I can see is AgilityGross. Seems like it can't really get an Agility on anything except Latias, but if for whatever reason it does, the combo of SR + LO + MM = death to half your team, and Earthquake and Thunderpunch only add to this. Maybe consider like a Rotom forme with Thunderwave or Discharge that way you still keep your strat alive.

    Cool team btw.
  8. Pride

    Pride

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    295
    Heh, yeah they have very good synergy with each other through nice defensive stats and resistances. One of my favorite teams in that aspect.

    Magnezone would be nice, but it doesn't fit has a hard time fitting in. It would work very nice with Gyarados, as they resist every type, but I can't figure out what would be replace. All the members seem very unforgiving to switch out with Maggy. Jirachi is the closest but... I don't think I would switch Jirachi for Magnezone just for Scizor. Its not that threatening imo.

    Yeah... Because of how the team is built, stat up really hurts. Celebi and Jirachi do okay if they are at very high health since they can Thunder Wave and let Heatran and other members help but outside of that... Yeah better not let it set up :/

    Rotom could fairly easily go over Latias but that helps with a lot of threats such as Metagross and Gyarados but it weakens us to Infernape. Would make the team more defensively orientated. Hm... I like the suggestion though and I'm gonna run a few games with Rotom.

    Thanks!
  9. iKitsune

    iKitsune

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2008
    Messages:
    805
    Are three thunderwavers really necessary especially at the expense of you losing out to practically the most common core in the metagame: Sleep Talk Rotom and Skarmory?

    Although it is fun to use gyarados in this way i think your team would take better advantage of a taunt variant. With it your team will struggle a lot less against the cores of stall teams. I'm guessing what Gyarados usually paralyses has natural cure: ie celebi or Starmie or has sleep talk ie, Rotom. For this reason I think it would definitely be worth testing taunt. At least this measure would slow stall down as its not really equipped to handle a +2 atk +2 spe Gyarados and this will in any case weaken their rotom for jirachi to sweep.
  10. DJXO9

    DJXO9

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    Messages:
    873
    We definitely have considered testing Thunder Wave, and would probably be the first change to the team if I were to make one. Every so often, after a DD, and against a faster pokemon like Latias, if I knew an attack wouldn't kill it, i would just sacrifice Gyarados to get a Thunder Wave in. This seems like an utterly stupid thing to do, but most of the time, it allowed one of the other pokemon to just sweep right through it, unhindered.

    As for Rotom and Skarmory, We usually take Rotom out with Latias, as long as Latias outspeeds it (unparalyzed scarf), or with Heatran. Skarmory is taken down by those two, as well as Jirachi, if its at lower health.
  11. hobo bob

    hobo bob

    Joined:
    May 2, 2009
    Messages:
    491
    Very nice team! I've been uh "playtesting" it and it does extremly well. Only times I've lost were because of hax...no joke
  12. Jon

    Jon

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    43
    How does your team reliably deal with Bulky Waters outside of Celebi? Machamp can confuse them, but cant do much to Defensive Waters such as Cune, who can set up on some of your team. In your threat list you seem to be relying on Celebi. Celebi will not always be around.

    A suggestion I have is to put T-Bolt over either Trick or Dragon Pulse.

    But you still can work around these pokemon if Celebi is gone, such as surviving an attack from Cune or Vappy and going boom.

    An amazing team well done.
  13. hobo bob

    hobo bob

    Joined:
    May 2, 2009
    Messages:
    491

    Most calm mind 'cunes don't have Tbolt so Gyra can set up on them. Spamming Dynamic Punch works too.
  14. iKitsune

    iKitsune

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2008
    Messages:
    805
    This is gonna be quick but i just had a great thought. Try Wacan on Gyarados. With this you'll be able to severely damage/kill rotom and therefore support Jirachi's frustrating rampage.
  15. Pride

    Pride

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    295
    ...

    I really like that. A lot. RestTalk Rotom will do 68% at most with Thunderbolt, so it lives even after sr. And if Gyarados DDed on the switch, its doing 41-48% w/ Waterfall to the standard RestTalk Rotom (252/120). And I'm not really worried about scarf rotom just cause it cannot heal itself (that tbolt has a 75% chance to ohko after SR). Going to test this out, I love the idea. Thanks!
  16. DJXO9

    DJXO9

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    Messages:
    873
    They generally have HP Electric though, but Machamp is usually how i dealt with them.

    I really like this too, and will definitely try it when i do some playtesting.
  17. Darkon

    Darkon

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2009
    Messages:
    71
    In Celebi use Earth Power over U-turn. U-turn of a Celebi is very weak, but Earth Power helps a lot with heatran and infernape. If you will use it, please note that you need @occa berry as a item. But in general you not have problems with heatran and infernape, it's only a option to use earth power + occa berry...

    In general:

    Salamence dragon dance kill all your team
    (Earthquake kill jirachi and heatran, outrage kills latias... and celebi, machamp and gyarados if they are weakened by stealth rock/ spikes.)

    Tyranitar dragon dance kill all your team
    (Earthquake kill jirachi and heatran. Crunch kill latias and celebi. Stone Edge kill gyarados with stealth rock damage. Stone Edge does 30-40% in machamp, he is the only that can "stop" gyarados if he has a good HP. But Stone Edge has a high critical hit chance...)

    Gyarados dragon dance are a problem too.
    Lucario is a problem, but he is a problem for all teams in late game.

    My suggest is to you try put Scizor on your team, he help a lot with dragon dancers. Or a Lucario, but if you choose lucario you will have 3 pokemons weak to erath damage.
  18. SandslashPWNS

    SandslashPWNS

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2009
    Messages:
    76
    About the U-Turn on Celebi, it's not for damage, at all. It's for scouting.

    In regards to Mence sweeping with a DD, it just won't. Pride and DJX09 made a great team, allowing for virtually nowhere for Mence to set up a DD. Even if he did get a DD up, I'm sure they would just sacrifice somebody (Latias) to force Mence into Outrage so Jirachi can come in and cripple it and eventually defeat it.

    Lucario is easily defeated by both Jirachi and Gyarados. He also cannot find a legit opening to set up.

    -------------------------------------------------------​

    In regards to my rate, I have a small, but to the point rate. I've personally used a variation of this Jirachi, and I'm completely and utterly impressed with it. I just changed up the EV's a little (72Hp, 252Atk, 186Spe and Adamant). In my team, I have ScarfGon as a partner for Jirachi due to perfect synergy, and due to one major reason: Tyranitar.

    As far as your team goes, I think you guys have a pretty large ScarfTar weakness, and for this I suggest Flygon. This set allows you guys to better defeat LO Starmie, Scarf Heatran, and MixMence. Not to mention any Ape.

    Great team here, guys. Congrats on that.
  19. DJXO9

    DJXO9

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    Messages:
    873
    Exactly.


    I don't think theres much of a ScarfTar weakness tbh. Its too easy for it to get paralyzed, and once that happens, its complete fodder for the rest of the team. If it isn't paralyzed, it can definitely pick off one of our pokemon like Latias. Because of the teams great synergy though, we can abuse the fact that its locked in to any certain move, and take the momentum back, which is extremely easy with this team.

    Thanks :)
  20. corncake22

    corncake22

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    73
    One little thing. How does your team do good against a Occa Berry Metagross? I recommend having Earth Power over T-wave so you don't get completely walled by one. Plus if it has explosion it will take out one of your pokemon.

    Anyway besides that this is a great team.
  21. shinygrowilthe

    shinygrowilthe

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    71
    Not really a rate but I was wondering what a 3-4 team is.
    Also for Latias you could run a sub-calm mind set to get a boost then sweep. Anyway great team and good luck
  22. Pride

    Pride

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    295
    3-4 was the suspect test for Latias and Manaphy, with Manaphy and Latias both being Uber. But Latias will have to be voted uber again to be officially kicked out of the OU tier.

    And we prefer to use SpecsLatias for its immediate power and great coverage. SubCM doesn't offer us this.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)