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Teambuilding 101 (Round 1: MMF, FLCL, Zebraiken)

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by MMF, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

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    Since it will take ages for Zebraiken and MMF to finish/describe their teams, I might as well post my AMAZING questions once again. Before you read these, remember that I am very new to the neverused tier and teambuilding in general.

    For Zebraiken:

    Since you only made half your team (-_-), I'll only ask questions about the first half of your team so far and not post any suggestions or weaknesses of the team since the rest of the team will probably change that, even though Golem seems like a good teammate so far, synergy-wise at least.

    1. Can you explain your Wartortle set in more detail, especially in how it beats Ghost-types such as Misdreavus? As a noob, I always thought defensive Wartortle was the best Pokemon in NU, but your set might be even better!!!!
    2. Can you explain the choice of Hidden Power Ice on Charizard? Since I know nothing about this tier, can you explain to me what it hits that would otherwise take out Charizard easily. Otherwise, it seems a bit unnecessary since Wartortle and Sawk already have Ice-type moves.
    Sorry about the lack of questions Zebraiken, there weren't many that I could ask that couldn't be potentially covered by other teammates. But once you're done, there will be plenty more (ehuehuehue).


    For MMF:


    The lack of description might make these questions sound stupid or will probably be answered once the descriptions are in, but remember, I am completely new to teambuilding (obviously).


    1. Looking at your team, it seems that Cinccino kind of murders this team. It looks like your best bet is Samurott's Aqua Jet and Golem's Sucker Punch which will only KO a weakened Cinccino. Can you show how your team deals with this little rat other than said priority?
    2. Can you explain the choice of Destiny Bond on Gardevoir? It seems quite unusual from my novice perspective.
    3. By running Lum Berry on Samurott, what Pokemon can Samurott set up on with this item? Can you also show some important KOs it gets without Life Orb and ones that it still gets without Life Orb since I don't know really know any?
    4. Can you explain the reason for running Reversal on Sawk over what I am presuming Stone Edge?
    5. What do the Speed EVs on Golem help it outrun?
    I may have more or less depending on the descriptions.

    I might have more questions later, but these are all the ones I could think of off the top of my nooby head. :)















    LO!L
  2. AroundTheSwirlz

    AroundTheSwirlz

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    I can answer a few of those questions for you, if you don't mind xD. A few of them have some fairly straightforward answers.

    For question 2 about Zeb's team, Charizard needs HP ice so it isn't walled by defensive Altaria.

    Regarding question #2 on MMFs team, Gardy is just frail, especially on the physical sde, so a lot of the time a wall can just take a hit and KO in return, such as Regirock. At least with dbond you outright kill such walls. It's also a great Skuntank lure, which would make it much easier to sweep with his sweepers Ludicolo and Samurott, which can easily be revenge killed by sucker punch after some prior damage. And Haunter definitely appreciates that so it also isn't trapped.

    For question #3, it lets you set up on walls such as Musharna, Missy and Probopass without being crippled by burn or paralysis. I doubt you miss many clutch KOs after a Swords Dance, but Megahorn still OHKOs Ludicolo before a boost, which is your most notable target.

    Those EVs let Golem beat out Min speed Alomomola and other base 65 speed pokemon, and other threats like Golurk that sit right above that.

    Reversal seems really meh, I'd like to know what its killing that Close Combat isn't, lol. Stone Edge seems much more useful. And that Golem needs rocky helmet because he's totally right about Cincinno pwn.

    God, I've edited this post like 3 times. Stupid phone...
  3. MMF

    MMF Give me the strength to part this sea

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    @Annoyer


    1. Looking at your team, it seems that Cinccino kind of murders this team. It looks like your best bet is Samurott's Aqua Jet and Golem's Sucker Punch which will only KO a weakened Cinccino. Can you show how your team deals with this little rat other than said priority? Well funnily enough that is how this team deals with Cinccino. Thats how most offense teams will deal with faster threats sans Scarf Users. Also Cinccino can't switch in on anything besides Haunter's Shadow Ball. Its not a foolproof plan but it works pretty well.

    2. Can you explain the choice of Destiny Bond on Gardevoir? It seems quite unusual from my novice perspective. Poliwhirlz explained this pretty well actually. It is a good Skuntank lure and also its nice for when you're low on HP and you want to take something with you that you may not be able to KO.

    3. By running Lum Berry on Samurott, what Pokemon can Samurott set up on with this item? Can you also show some important KOs it gets without Life Orb and ones that it still gets without Life Orb since I don't know really know any? It's mainly for random status like Scald burns from Alomomola and Will-O-Wisp from Misdreavus. Life Orb is a perfectly good substitute.

    4. Can you explain the reason for running Reversal on Sawk over what I am presuming Stone Edge? Let me drop some calcs to show you why I use Reversal.

    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Reversal vs 252 HP/252 Def Musharna (+Def) : 47.71% - 56.42% (2-3 hits to KO)

    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Reversal vs 252 HP/252 Def Amoonguss (+Def) : 54.4% - 64.12% (2 hits to KO)

    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Reversal vs 252 HP/252 Def Alomomola (+Def) : 81.09% - 95.69% (2 hits to KO)

    And that is why I run Reversal. When you're hit down to Sturdy its the most powerful move Sawk has at its disposal and makes it waaay better than Stone Edge in my opinion.

    5. What do the Speed EVs on Golem help it outrun? Poliwhirlz also answered that question for me :)
  4. Wobble

    Wobble

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    Can you explain Timid on Ludicolo over Modest?
  5. ium

    ium dein haar riecht gut
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    i believe every scarf user is outsped in the rain. but the main reasons are for hitting adamant braviary (basically neutral base 80s; don't know if there's anything else important there) and jolly emboar first. also, with the increase in jolly/timid samurott, ludicolo wants to tie with it at best when rain isn't up so it doesn't always get hit with megahorn.
  6. MMF

    MMF Give me the strength to part this sea

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    Yeah the main reason is for the influx of +Spe Samurott. Its better to force a tie then potentially lose to Samurott because you are slower so it kinda acts as a check.
  7. WillSO

    WillSO

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    Bump.

    I really want to see Zebraiken finish this and I thing the general idea of this is excellent and should be continued (please...).
  8. MMF

    MMF Give me the strength to part this sea

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    So Zeb has told me that he will finish this! And it will hopefully be this week so with that being said the next session(?) will start next Monday! So ask these builders questions while you still can!
  9. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken is it true what they say, that words are weapons?
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    haha, sorry for taking so long guys. it's been sort of hard for me to put any significant effort into anything the last few days but i'm tired of doing nothing so yeah! HOPEFULLY it'll be worth the wait.

    so a recap partially for me and for everyone else to remember where i was at when i started with the other team: i went over my initial thoughts when teambuilding, outlined a process, and picked a pokemon that i wanted to build my team around. i picked one that most people believe needs more support than most others, charizard. from there i added wartortle to spin, and threw on cb sawk to help break open holes in the opposing team for 'zard, and also give it several switch-in opportunities. you can read about all of my reasoning for these choices in my last post, which is here.



    now, the more astute among us will realize that this core that i've picked out is definitely not flawless. not only have i not covered the primary weaknesses of my initial pick, but the partners i've chosen are dubious and aren't proven to be fantastic teammates. in theory they're fine, sure, but practice could show something much different - and that's completely a-ok. i've probably already repeated it several times, but just to hammer it in your head: don't worry about making your team perfect in this stage. it's good to identify your weaknesses and address them to avoid this potential team turning into a pile of shit, but if something seems like it might be questionable, roll with it anyway and see if it works. if it doesn't, oh well, try something else... and if it does, then you've found something solid that you can continue working off of. teambuilding should be 10% guessing what will work and 90% practicing with and refining your team.

    at this point, it's a good idea to look over what we have and see what we're gonna have trouble with, and what we can add to work around this. we're gonna have trouble with the following threats, in the order that i think of them: musharna, gorebyss (esp subsmash sets who set up on wartortle), swellow (it cleanly sweeps if sr is up), electrode / zebstrika / scarf rotom-a / electabuzz and other fast electrics, ludicolo, and cinccino, among others. obviously a ton of stuff still left to keep in mind, and all things that we'll have to be able to check for our team to succeed. there are a couple of ways we can go about this, especially given that most of these threats are fast offensive threats (cb sawk + specs zard tend to decimate defensive cores on their own, remember!). we could rely on our own offensive pressure with additional fast sweepers / scarf users and priority, or we could fall back on bulkier pivots to work around faster offensive threats. my own playstyle tends to fit the latter more than the former, so that's how i'm going to finish building this (sorry if this falls more under "balance" to you!). if you want, you can certainly pick up where i've left off and add your own teammates that you think would work out well. :>

    ideally, the teammates that we add will be able to cover multiple issues and also not detract from the overall team goal (which is for charizard to be successful in whatever it is we want it to do). now, one thing that i've always wanted to try to push and see if it would work is specially defensive amoonguss. it keeps several things in check for us, at the very least: ludicolo, previously mentioned electrics, even stuff like gorebyss if it's not late to the party. the primary use of amoonguss in this team is going to be to sponge up the strong special attacks that none of the existing core is going to be able to take - spore and the possible use of stun spore (your last slot is almost always down to stun spore or synthesis imo, and it's really just personal preference there) are simply bonuses that help create opportunities for our choiced powerhouses to wreak havoc.

    cinccino, swellow, and other powerful physical attackers are also gonna be the death of this core. cincy is stopped somewhat by amoonguss, despite being specially defensive, but swellow just runs over amoonguss as well. what's really necessary with this teamslot is to grab our bird check (which is honestly necessary for every team), as well as fitting in SR if we can. there are tons and tons of options for what rock-type you prefer to keep birds in check, but at this point i've already got a ton of adventurous sets so i think i'm gonna stick with the tried-and-true in regirock. regirock fills in as our resident bird check and is also an excellent response to many physical attackers and such. it's easily one of the best pivots in NU atm and i'm comfortable sticking it on this team simply because of sheer reliability.

    now, i can already tell you that what we've got is not going to be the end-all be-all perfect solution for the issues i've listed above. for example, gorebyss coming in on a choice-locked fire blast and setting up could just run over what we've got. shell smash carracosta can do similar things, especially given the specially defensive spread. playing around stuff like emboar is going to be a bitch and a half given that charizard can't take a hit, especially with SR up. volt switching is still probably gonna be a pain because amoonguss is remarkably easily taken advantage of. however, while these weaknesses are present while we're still sitting here theorymonning, don't worry about them too much. just keep them in mind as you make final adjustments to your team before you start practicing.

    the last teamslot is often the hardest to pick. you're stuck trying to pick a glue that solves the many remaining problems with your team, and often it's next to impossible to actually get a pokemon that accomplishes everything you need it to do. remember though, don't overthink it. if you have a role that you want this last mon to play, then by all means, do it. the only pokemon that really strikes me to fit in here is skuntank - it keeps musharna in check (which is really vital when you're playing with cb sawk imo - not much can beat mushy one on one, but skuntank is man enough for the job) and also gives us priority to check stuff like gorebyss if needed. the team is remarkably slow outside of charizard, and skuntank's priority helps that quite a bit. skuntank is also a secondary check for an incredible amount of threats, like ludicolo, emboar, samurott, absol... obviously if you're following along with my thoughts you're welcome to use whatever you like, but i'm most comfortable with skuntank so this is what i'll be working with. :)


    don't forget to select between slashed moves on regirock / amoonguss! (open)
    Charizard @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Air Slash
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Wartortle @ Eviolite
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 196 HP / 252 SAtk / 60 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Toxic
    - Rapid Spin

    Sawk (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Punch
    - Stone Edge

    Amoonguss @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature
    - Giga Drain
    - Spore
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Stun Spore / Synthesis

    Regirock @ Leftovers
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Rock Slide
    - Drain Punch
    - Stealth Rock
    - Thunder Wave / Ice Punch (for golurk)

    Skuntank @ Leftovers
    Trait: Aftermath
    EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Poison Jab
    - Pursuit
    - Sucker Punch
    - Taunt



    i didn't put a ton of thought into this (and that might be evident :P), it took me much longer to just write up my thoughts than it actually took putting the team together. teambuilding should be something that's quick, easy, and fun to do - if it's not fun, then why are you doing it? again, the team's definitely not perfect and it won't be anytime soon - look at some enormous threats like ss carracosta, among others that i haven't even thought about yet but probably will get decimated by on the ladder. all of the best parts of teambuilding come with making your own decisions and testing them out on the ladder, so feel free to take this team (or just parts of it, if you wish) and make whatever changes you want and turn it into your own!

    i know annoyer had some questions for me and that so did a few other people, but it's almost 1 am here and i've been awake and working since 10am on tuesday, so i really need to get some sleep. again, sorry to have slowed this whole shabang down, but see you guys tomorrow! bring questions for me if you have any~ :toast:
  10. MMF

    MMF Give me the strength to part this sea

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    let me be the first to say.....FUCKING FINALLY! I'll get the next one going next week but until then enjoy Zeb's lengthy post :)
  11. WillSO

    WillSO

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    Excellent analysis of your team building process Zeb, really enjoyed it. I can't wait to see your take on other playstyles in the future.

    I'd advocate using Thunder Wave on Regirock as opposed to Ice Punch, your team already has numerous ways of beating Golurk including luring with Rapid Spin and nailing with Surf.

    @MMF, can you explain your choices in your team?
  12. Detective Dell

    Detective Dell Winter Hibernation of the Yarnasauruses
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    Good stuff Zeb on the team with a very well-detailed analysis enough to explain the completely synergy and win condition of the team. I'll definitely try it out some time.
  13. FireMage

    FireMage Say Goodnight!
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    Zeb - What notable hits can Wartortle take with those EV's to ensure it can get a spin off, so Charizard can come in for a second time if it's forced out? and can more be invested into speed if it needs to be (would it be wise to do so)?
  14. FLCL

    FLCL
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    I'd suggest changing Amoonguss' EV spread to 252 HP / 156 Def / 104 SDef with a Calm nature. This still allows it to take Special Attacks reasonably well, always surviving a boosted Gorebyss Ice Beam before Stealth Rocks, but gives Amoonguss the bulk needed to take things like CB Sawk Earthquake. This is very important since Amoonguss is probably going to be your initial switch-in to Sawk, unless you're really gutsy. It also lets you survive a boosted Megahorn from Life Orb Samurott, which is crucial as well.
  15. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken is it true what they say, that words are weapons?
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    Misdreavus is really the one common Ghost that it has trouble with, as a) it outspeeds Wartortle, and b) it takes pretty pathetic damage from even max SpA Surf. If you find yourself having difficulty dealing with Misdreavus, using Foresight over Ice Beam is always an option, but I would mostly rely on Toxicing it and then pressuring it with Skuntank afterwards (be careful about Will-O-Wisp!). Frillish is worked around similarly.

    HP Ice hits Altaria and is the only real use of the move. Fire Blast / Air Slash are going to be your primary attacks, and Focus Blast hits most of the mons that resist your STAB coverage (Rock-types, mostly). It's more or less a filler move, so feel free to use whatever you like if you don't wish to use it.

    SORRY

    That's true, yup. It does also help deal with Torterra, who really likes to switch into Regirock (and actually does a number to our defensive core), and is the only SR setter who can't be easily spun on by Wartortle as it fears Wood Hammer. It's simply a matter of personal preference, really. And thanks for the compliments, I really appreciate it!

    THANKS DELL :)

    It's simply hitting a common Speed number (outruns 0 Spe Alomomola) and dropping the rest into bulk and SpA. As such, there aren't any specific attacks that it's EVed to take, although you can play with the EVs if you like. You can certainly invest more in Speed if you wish, especially given how much tries to out-creep Golurk and friends. Again, though, that's up to personal preference. You can stick to the lower end of that Speed-creeping and do just fine.

    This is true and should probably be used, haha. Thanks for your thoughts, FLCL. :>

    I've still got to answer Annoyer's upcoming questions, so I'll wait for him to post those and then I'll give a few brief thoughts on potential changes after some playtesting, just to give you guys an idea on what I do after some matches (especially since I said this was the most important part of teambuilding, after all!).
  16. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

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    Round 3 of Annoyer's fantastic questions =)

    Good job on finishing the team zeb. The detailed thought process definitely helped me see what you were thinking as you were building the team, as well as helping me get a better grasp at teambuilding because I'm a pro at this tier. ( Just maybe make your posts a bit longer, it's just a bit too short ;) )

    1. Is Choice Specs really the best item for Charizard on your team? I understand that it makes breaking through walls much easier, but I find that locking yourself can get you into terrible situations against the likes of Gorebyss, Carracosta, Electric-types with Volt Switch when you're locked into Air Slash is too much of a concern for more power. SpecsZard is a monster and its damage output is insane, but can you recommend another item/set to try out since testing is an important part of teambuilding (I've heard from you)?

    2. Can you explain the choice of 252 Attack EVs on Regirock and the choice of Rock Slide over what I'm assuming Stone Edge? Since I'm a noob, I don't really know much about Regirock. I see that it sets up Rocks and takes on those birds, but I don't know much else about it/the set you're using.

    3. This question isn't really about the team, but more about how you play with it. SpecsZard is your win condition so you can explain how you set up this win condition? (Logs would be appreciated or just an example battle/scenario)

    4. Can you explain why you chose Adamant on CB Sawk instead of for example, Jolly? I'd like to know some calcs as well that makes Adamant the better nature.

    Thanks for answering and reading these questions. I'm a pro so I really appreciate this (and everyone else should too). =)
  17. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken is it true what they say, that words are weapons?
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    hi noobert. i am glad to have helped you ! :pirate:

    in all honestly, i just tried to build a team as i went along and i didn't worry too much about the aftereffects of each decision. choice specs charizard was simply the inspiration for this team to get built, but i can certainly test the variety of sets that zard can have instead if specs proves to be too much of a burden on the team (allowing easy setup and stuff like that). there's another hint to teambuilding embedded in this question: more often than not, the final version of any given team will not have what i originally built it around. maybe it's just me, but i'm willing to trade out anything that seems to be underperforming in my matches, or maybe it's just bringing weaknesses that the rest of a rather solid team simply cannot handle. in that case, i try to find something else that fits the rest of the team better than the original mon.

    a few possible sets to test over specszard: scarf (lets you revenge stuff like said electric-types, gorebyss, although not carracosta / samurott), sunny day (which is the one i'd be most inclined to, as it has a similar power output), subroost, whatever.

    the spread is arbitrary but it's what's standard on regirock. i don't have any specific changes i need to make to the spread simply because i don't have any real damage calcs to prove that any given spread is better than the one i have right now. this is another lesson for new teambuilders: don't deviate from the given spreads on smogon unless you have a very specific purpose for doing so. just giving stuff a little extra defensive bulk for no reason is rarely a good idea - if it doesn't make a difference in a specific scenario, you're just wasting EVs which is never a good thing.

    rock slide > stone edge is also personal preference. se doesn't net you any specific KOes iirc, but you can use it in lieu of rock slide if you wish. any further information you want to know can be found on the analysis, since this is really as standard of a regirock as you'll get.

    i don't understand what you mean, exactly. the win condition of the team developed sort of into trying to saw teams back and forth with the power of cb sawk and specs zard and then relying on a solid backbone if you mess up. it should be easy to see what's going to be most effective based on team preview; if the opp carries few fighting resists (especially if they lack musharna / misdreavus), it'll be best to try to tear stuff apart early game with sawk. the team relies mostly on pressuring the opponent's team with the proper powerhouse, so you need to keep this in mind. if you switch sawk into something like 80% lickilicky and they also have a 75% musharna sitting on deck, you should realize that although sawk has the more favorable matchup currently, it is charizard who possesses the potential to break this core if you can double switch it into mushy since it can 2hko lickilicky, while sawk cannot do the same to musharna.

    is that what you were asking? i mean, i can't really tell you exactly how to play with this team since most people play rather differently to one another.

    adamant misses out on virtually nothing (+spe base 80s is basically it) and outspeeds +spe samurott and ludicolo by one point. the power boost it receives is tremendous as well, letting it 2hko stuff like alomomola after SR, while jolly fails to do so. adamant is very generally the superior nature on cb sawk (and i'd argue scarf sawk too, but then again that's a different story i guess).
  18. WillSO

    WillSO

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    Shameless bump again.
    Don't let this thread die D:
  19. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken is it true what they say, that words are weapons?
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    alrighty, i updated the OP of this thread and i will be posting the next round with ebeast / django / dtc building shortly!

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