Teambuilding Frameworks

Stratos

Banned deucer.
#1
This is a thread idea that Laga and I had basically simultaneously and I'm posting it first because fuck him. It started forming in my mind a while ago when I noticed that basically all higher level rain teams follow a similar mold. Here are three for your consideration:

Laga's Rain:


Mizuhime's Rain:


Lolk's Rain:


i lined these up in a way that made it most apparent what the various roles were. First and foremost, toed. duh. Secondly, an electric type that outspeeds Charizard Y, to handle it and be the fast half of the team's major damage output. Third, a strong, bulky Steel-type, used for the bulky half of the team's major damage output. Fourth, a grass, to switch into opposing Water-types, especially Rotom-W. Fifth, intimidate, to turn politoed into a ridiculously good physical tank. Sixth, the wild card. Lolk chose Latios as a reliable water-type and fire-type switchin since Breloom is on the frail side (and burn weak) and he was short on Zard switchins. Laga chose talonflame because Rain is typically weak to bulky Grass-types, and as a fire-type switchin in a pinch. Mizuhime chose Breloom to spam spore all over everyone's ass with double fake out support (imo, the weakest pick of the three). Of course, multiple roles can be condensed into one pokemon to open up another wild-card slot.

BONUS NEW ADD: Sun framework

Kingofmars's Sun:

Laga's Sun:

Doubles Teambuilding Sun:

Fireburn Sun:

This isn't quite as easy to explain as rain was, because team roles are a little more fluid than they seemed to be with rain, but bear with me.

First off, every team has Charizard because duh. On all four teams, slot 2 is the primary Fire-type killer. On kom's team, Aerodactyl serves as (with Sky Drop) one of his two Trick Room killers. On the other three teams, Garchomp/Terrakion serve as one of the two Rock-type killers. On all four teams, slot 3 is the Intimidate. On laga's team, Taunt Terrakion also serves as one of the two Trick Room killers. On laga's team, Salamence serves as one of the two Water-type killers. On all the other teams, Scrafty/Landorus-T serve as the one of the two Rock-type killers. On all four teams, slot 4 is one of the two Water-type killers. On all four teams, Slot 5 is the Dragon killer. On kingofmars's team, Mamoswine also works as the second Rock-type killer. On the other three teams, they serve as one of the two Trick Room killers. Slot 6 is, on three of the teams, the second Water-type killer and second Trick Room killer. It's no surprise that Venusaur is a natural fit on so many sun teams; not only does he kill Water-types and sleep Trick Room setters, but Grass also perfectly covers Fire defensively. But since Laga was so frugal about condensing all of these roles into his previous slots, he was actually able to afford a wild card (and frankly I'd like your logic on why you picked Deoxys-A! hence the tag) So, in summary, a Sun framework you could use is:
  • 1 Charizard
  • 2 Rock-type killers
  • 1 Fire-type killer
  • 2 Water-type killers
  • 1 Dragon killer
  • 2 Trick Room killers
  • 1 Intimidate
Pwnemon's:


Laga's:

AuraRayquaza's:

Darkmalice's:


analysis of this framework to come when i aint feelin so lazy


The point of noticing frameworks like this isn't to limit creativity or say "you MUST build this way." this framework catalogue exists as a resource for when you're starting out on a new team to help you take a top level thing and put your own spin on it. I'm not going to go into any more frameworks than rain, but if you notice any other kinds, feel free to come here yourselves and post them! (rain is the one i noticed as the most....unshakeable framework, that's why i led with it as an example).

So yeah post frameworks you've seen, comment on others' frameworks, discuss the use of frameworks, or argue that frameworks are bad for creativity, or anything else! go.
 
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Pocket

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#2
Awesome thread, Pwnemon (and Laga)!

I'd argue that Electric-types aren't mandatory, but they are great for frying Water-types and tanking Electric-type moves. Terrakion also works in this slot, because it fits the "faster Pokemon that can eat Charizard Y for breakfast" description (also deals with Kyurem-B, Tyranitar, Abomasnow, and Ferrothorn).

Bulky Steel-types and Rain make a great couple. Steel-types turn extra bulky with the help of Rain neutralizing their weakness to Fire. Steel-types in turn deal with Dragon- and Grass-types for the team. Escavalier is a particularly strong pick, since it can deal with Ferrothorn (if it has Sub), Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss with ease thanks to Overcoat. With access to Drill Run, it's also a good answer to TR sun, which can be quite devastating versus Rain.

I agree that Laga and Lolk have the better "wildcard." Rather than a "wildcard" slot, it's more like an additional slot to check Sun and Mega Venusaur, which Mizuhime's team lack (doesn't mean it's bad obviously, but it does make facing Sun teams a bit harder at least).

I think a more fitting description of Ludicolo's slot would be, "Swift Swimmer/Rain Sweeper." Lolk simply opted out of one, and instead used that extra slot to patch up the team's defenses against Tyranitar/Bisharp/Rotom-W.
 
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#3
Cool idea! I like it a lot. I'm not that big of a player (or famous, for that matter) but I have an entire Pastebin with frameworks. I'd like to post one here but I don't know if we have to follow a specific framework (PUN CITY) that we have to follow when writing the framework?
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
#4
I'd like to post one here but I don't know if we have to follow a specific framework (PUN CITY) that we have to follow when writing the framework?
Nah, if you see any patterns among successful teams, feel free to drop them here in any format you wish! I just did the OP like that because it's visually appealing and kind of funny how similar the teams are. As i said, I don't see any other team builds that are similar to such a degree.

Another thing I'd been looking at though was Sun. arctic's sun is zard/tar/keld/amoong/top/cube, gavin's is zard/venu/chomp/mamo/rotom-w/aero, laga's is zard/mence/deoxys/terrak/thund/sharp. I can see some patterns here too, such as a rock-type switchin, a water-type switchin, and a dragon killer, but i'm struggling to piece this together as easily as i could with rain. Perhaps if we dropped laga's sun since it's more of a hyper offense and less of a balanced sun than the other two? But i like to base it off of at least three teams.


An interesting thing I feel like pointing out is how Mega Swampert fits into the rain team framework. He only fits in the 6th slot, removing room for a secondary switchin to sun, a secondary grass beater, or other things. This is part of why I'm not as hyped for him as others are. He brings exceptional power but little else; he does not help rain conquer its nemeses or cover its bases in any way. In addition, he forces both the electric and the steel to not be the team's mega. Perhaps a rain team with Mega Pert could use Salamence as its intimidate, thus also covering as a secondary zard switchin. It's a shame that he doesn't get hurricane or that'd be BAMF as hell :(
 
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Pocket

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#5
I'd argue that Mega Swampert would fit Ludicolo's slot as the "Rain Sweeper of choice." It also has an immunity to Electric-type moves, so the 2nd team slot can be a bit more flexible here. A team with Mega Swampert would certainly want to fill its water resistance in other slots (ie Lolk's Latios). Ferrothorn and Kyurem-B would also be a great Rain/Grass check, as long as Sun is covered well already.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
#6
I'd argue that Mega Swampert would fit Ludicolo's slot as the "Rain Sweeper of choice." It also has an immunity to Electric-type moves, so the 2nd team slot can be a bit more flexible here. A team with Mega Swampert would certainly want to fill its water resistance in other slots (ie Lolk's Latios). Ferrothorn and Kyurem-B would also be a great Rain/Grass check, as long as Sun is covered well already.
there is no slot for "rain sweeper of choice" though. Lolk has the best rain team i've ever seen and it literally only has one water-type. Ludicolo's slot is water-type (especially rotom-w) counter. Mega swampert, thanks to its secondary ground typing and physical bias, can especially not fulfill this. If you run Mega Swampert in slot 4, you'll need another way to beat opposing Water-types, which will probably end up being a grass-type, and then we're back to square one. And the second team slot cannot really be any more flexible because elec provides a flying resist (crucial on teams running a mandatory grass and (in mizus and lolks cases at least) no other flying resists and because thunder is fucking amazing. As i've said before, rain has three major problems: water, grass, and steel. Slots 3 and 4 handle those problems. Slots 2 covers the backs of things that handle those problems (steels and grasses). this leaves slots 5 and 6. slot 5 could possibly be dumped for mega swampert, though.
 
#7
I must say, that when im building a rain team, i always make sure to add a dragon type, usually over an electric type. The resistance to grass and electric is so good on a rain team, as well as being able to beat char y and sun. Thats why i like lolks team the best, as latios is, in my opinion, the best dragon for a rain team.
 

Lolk

can't you see i'm busy?
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#8
This was a very interesting read, Pwnemon! I am curious to see other playstyles lined up like this in the future. Just in case anyone wants, here is the importable for my team with all of the sets.

Shin Shin To (Politoed) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Perish Song
- Helping Hand
- Protect

Kenya (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 160 Spd / 96 HP / 252 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Superpower

Ukraine (Manectric) (M) @ Manectite
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 220 Spd / 252 SAtk / 36 HP
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect

Sir (Escavalier) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Megahorn
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Drill Run

Kanye (Breloom) (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Spore
- Protect

Scooby (Latios) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Protect


The only thing I am not positive on is Latios's third move, as I have tested Tailwind, Roost, Helping Hand, and HP Fire. For now, Scizor (and to a lesser degree, Ferrothorn) are just too annoying to let run free, because my team has no way to OHKO them, so when I see one, I just stall out rain turns until I can take it out.

Also Heatran Heat Waves in the rain sometimes don't even 2HKO Escavalier :>

Still gonna use this team in tourneys even tho the pastebin is available for everyone cause this team does work.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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#9
To be honest, I've never even really considered Lolk's team a rain team so much as a goodstuffs team that uses Toed to counter Char-Y and Heatran who are otherwise very hard for Lolk to switch into.

Imho, having a rain sweeper is the very backbone of any Rain team. Lolk's team doesn't really have that.

One rain team I've made (with input from Pwne) that fits the framework to a degree is this:


Here I've swapped out the Electric type for a Mega Gengar. This is inferior in terms of removing Char-Y immediately by damage, but it makes it a lot easier to remove it permanently since it can't switch out.

Interestingly, the first draft of the team had Keldeo over Jirachi. It got a lot better once I added the bulky steel type that the framework "demands," if you will.




EDIT

Also here was Arcticblast version:
 
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#10
Just a suggestion to the thread: We should do this just like the Creative Cores (or something like that) thread; Have a spoiler with all the cool frameworks.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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#11
Posting again to introduce another framework that I would probably call boring centralized standard goodstuffs but is apparently called "Semi Trick Room":

Pwnemon's:


Laga's:


One of mine that I never use anymore (because Pwne's is just a better version of this playstyle than mine will ever be):


Cress + Rotom-W + Scarf Lando-T + Fire type (usually Heatran though in research I saw a good bit of Talonbird) + Slow Physical attacker (usually with Prio) that appreciates TR + Wild Card


Since Laga used Conkeldurr to fill the roll Pwne and I used for Mega Scizor, he was free to use Mega Pinsir to threaten opposing teams better when Trick Room isn't up than either Pwne's or my team can.

In Pwne's case, he gets to use Amoonguss in TR and as a Rain cockblock, as well as a Fairies check, to which Laga's team is a tad weak.

For me, I cockblock Fairies about as well as Pwne. I'm a bit worse against Rain than Pwne's team though since Amoonguss more than makes up for Heatran's weakness, while Talonflame is helpful against Ludicolo, but not nearly as good as Amoong in general. I'd call my team worse than both Pwne's and Laga's in general, but I get the added bonus of Talonflame's BB security blanket to ignore any speed control going on and snag needed kills.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
#12
srk's team here is a good example of how I was saying that the frameworks don't actually destroy creativity. When I was talking to pocket I said that pert can "only fit slot six" which kind of gives the wrong impression. The frameworks give an idea of what the team needs and the most obvious ways to fulfill them. Electric-types are used for fast offensive pressure and to keep Zard Y from coming in (since it can usually backwardsly come in on most rain pokes). However, srk1214 instead fills this role with a Mega Gengar. This leaves him lacking in the flying resist category, so he drops a Jirachi instead of a more offensive Steel-type. This leaves him lacking in damage, especially unable to kill steel-types, so he fills this hole in two ways: first, bulky steels and grasses (and waters) can be perish trapped with the combination of toed + gengar. Second, they are hit for big damage by Kyurem-B. In this way, he can take the traditional framework and introduce a ~twist~ while still hitting all the major points.
 
#13
This reminds me of the Gira O meta in drop-a-legend where every team was the same steel-fairy-dark-gira composition.
Also, like 50+ teams use Heatran+Wash+Cress+Landog+mega+filler. The one that I used wasn't semi-tr though which is most common.
 
#14
Posting again to introduce another framework that I would probably call boring centralized standard goodstuffs but is apparently called "Semi Trick Room":

Pwnemon's:


Laga's:


One of mine that I never use anymore (because Pwne's is just a better version of this playstyle than mine will ever be):


Cress + Rotom-W + Scarf Lando-T + Fire type (usually Heatran though in research I saw a good bit of Talonbird) + Slow Physical attacker (usually with Prio) that appreciates TR + Wild Card


Since Laga used Conkeldurr to fill the roll Pwne and I used for Mega Scizor, he was free to use Mega Pinsir to threaten opposing teams better when Trick Room isn't up than either Pwne's or my team can.

In Pwne's case, he gets to use Amoonguss in TR and as a Rain cockblock, as well as a Fairies check, to which Laga's team is a tad weak.

For me, I cockblock Fairies about as well as Pwne. I'm a bit worse against Rain than Pwne's team though since Amoonguss more than makes up for Heatran's weakness, while Talonflame is helpful against Ludicolo, but not nearly as good as Amoong in general. I'd call my team worse than both Pwne's and Laga's in general, but I get the added bonus of Talonflame's BB security blanket to ignore any speed control going on and snag needed kills.
I think we discussed this a bit on irc yesterday but one of my early teams also fits this profile. It turns out that tr on gardevoir was pretty good, especially as i had taunt on it specifically for stopping tr. However, this isnt the order in which i built the team (I desperately wanted to get on the sub tran train at the time), but it is laid out like the other three.

The only blemish on Pwne's otherwise-perfect SPL record:



The difference with my team is quite clear: i use gardevoir over cress, which all of the other teams use as their tr setter. I felt like the team lacked firepower (scrafty hits like shit), so i went for a more offensive psychic, as pixilate hyper voice is fucking scary for bulky offense.

I also use scrafty over another steel/a stronger fighting type. Scrafty provides nice utility to semi tr imo. While it hits like a pussy, it has fake out to help get a hyper voice off, get a sub up, or spore something. It might not count as priority like mach/bullet punch, as it doesnt pick off weakened opponents unless they are under 5% and not a resist. However, it provides much more utility than those moves and allows the team to be 'more bulky'. Knock off is great as well, especially against bulky offense, where knocking off a leftovers or sitrus is game-changing.
 
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#15
Posting again to introduce another framework that I would probably call boring centralized standard goodstuffs but is apparently called "Semi Trick Room":

Pwnemon's:


Laga's:


Aura's team 1: One of mine that I never use anymore (because Pwne's is just a better version of this playstyle than mine will ever be):



Aura's team 2: The only blemish on Pwne's otherwise-perfect SPL record:
May as well add my semi-TR team to the list



I used Genesect as my speedy Scarfer in place of Lando-T. Both Pokemon provide large offensive pressure coupled with Speed, Lando-T did so by power, Genesect by coverage and a strong U-turn. Genesct could easily be replaced with Lando-T.

Mega Ven was my slow tank under TR in place of Mega Scizor, Conkeldurr, and Scrafty. It wasn't physical, but like them, it could function outside TR. It also counters Water-types like Amoonguss; interestingly Assault Vest Conkeldurr checks Water-types too. I used to use Conkeldurr instead of Mega Ven, but I found Mega Ven to have better team synergy with my team.

Terrakion was my wild card, being chosen as, without Intimidate, I wanted something that could smash Kangaskhan and Heatran. It was also my only physical sweeper. Out of all the wild cards, it is most similar to Terrakion.

I also changed Rotom-W to a Scarf set for a fast WoW against physical attackers (most notably Kang) and a stronger fast mode, with Trick to help if I wanted to play more in TR mode.

This team was overall most similar to Laga's out of the others mentioned, though that was in part because i used Laga's team as a starting point for my team.
 

Laga

Forever Grande
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#16
Another thing to add to the semi trick room framework is that most of the time it had 4 slow mons + 2 fast mons (fast priority users fit better on semi tr; talonflame, bisharp count as fast mons if they are Speed invested). What I like about the 4 slow / 2 fast idea on semi trick room is that if you set up TR early, and the opponent manages to stall it out successfully, you would still have (example) something like a Scarf Lando-T to clean up.

Also the reason Cresselia is such a popular mon on semi Trick Room is definitely because it's the only Trick Room setter that is so bulky, that your team doesn't need a second setter. Usually when you use two setters or more with only 1 semi-fast mon, people would also call it full trick room.

Frameworks are generally amazing to build from, and definitely do not limit creativity. They definitely help newer and even experienced players avoid "falling off" in teambuilding, something I have done many times before.

Also I want talk a bit about sun teams later today but I gotta nap a lil bit first :] If you wanna ninja me, feel free lol

Arcticblast edit: it's been over 12 hours, nice nap loser
Level 51 edit: liking this post purely for AB's edit
 
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finally

how can you swallow so much sleep
#17
hihi i really like this idea Pwnemon :^)
I think I would like to propose what standard sun is right about now. I believe it consists of char-y+ venu + rotom-w + garchomp. Funnily it looks a lot like vgc sun because a lot of the mons are just good/legal.

personally i use subtran and offensive cress as my wild card.
char y is for sun and hes strong. venu is for fast sleep and generally a strong hitter which limits things that could switch in on char y. also helps against ttar. garchomp and char y have great typing synergy and there are very few switchins for eq+heat wave. also garchomp stops heatran which causes problems for char y and venu's that cant hit sleep powder. also helps against ttar, excadrill, terrak, et company. rotom w has nice typing synergy (fire water grass, levitate etc) and offers some nice defensive backbone to the team. heatran (this core is already packing 2 water resists, 2 fighting resists, 2 ground immunities) offers another outlet for sun abuse (heat wave spam) and his typing fits in really well. cress is there for more defensive backbone, ice beam, can set up tr for heatran, skill swap levitate, can skill swap drought (and maybe even chloro!!!) has good typing synergy with the others etc. the original 4 form such a strong core that it leaves a lot of possibilities for your 2 last spots. some people choose to add more stuff to prepare for tr. some try adding a harder kanga check. be creative :]
some people also swap out chomp for lando t also

just for reference this is Fireburn sun (which is a lot like king of kongs vgc sun)

i suppose the purpose of scrafty and aegislash are to add some tr backup. also the fake out and intimidate support scrafty offers really helps out chary, venu, and garchomp who aren't the pinnacles of bulk. their typings and overall bulky nature also offer a lot of help to the defensive backbone of the team which is something balanced sun needs.
just the main 4 typing synergy

firebarn

mine


the takeaway from these typing charts is that both mine and fireburn's teams aim to cover the psychic and dragon weaknesses the original 4 are weak to.

what are your ideas on standard sun frens?
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
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#18
I like Aegislash on sun since it provides a reliable check to Latios (which the typical 4 mon sun core has issues with) and Terrakion, also Wide Guard is awesome and having a hard Cress counter is never a bad thing. I also like Scrafty since it helps cover Aegislash by providing resistances to Ghost and Dark (which finally's team does not have, though with Chomp and 2 Fire mons he doesn't necessarily need it) and Fake Out + Intimidate is indeed awesome, esp since Venusaur and Zard are kind of frail on the physical side.

hi finally :]
 

Electrolyte

and at once I knew I was not magnificent
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#19
OK I think it's time to take the discussion away from individual Pokemon patterns and more into the actual framework- because 1.) frameworks are not actually Pokemon based, they are type and function based and 2.) I and every other user in this thread gets pretty much nothing from that fact that multiple people happen to use Zard Y / Chomp / Venu / Rotom-W on their Sun team because, I don't WANT to build a Sun team that is practically Fireburn's with like 2 changes (even though Fireburn's team is pretty solid).

Let's dig into function discussion, because this is much less restricting and adds point to the discussion beyond identifying Pokemon that show up in more than one distinguished team. I really like how Pwnemon analyzed the functions of each Pokemon when comparing the Rain teams, because despite the fact that between the three teams, Politoed was the only reoccuring member, all three still fit into the standard Rain framework.


So, let's take another look at Sun. Fireburn, I hope you don't mind if I borrow your team for analytical purposes.



finally was correct in pointing out the repetition of Zard Y / Venu / Chomp / Rotom-W. But why are these Pokemon present? If the teambuilder is a knowledeable one (which, we can assume that Fireburn is :D) then most of the time, these repetitions will be present because of function repetition.

So first of all, obviously, you have your Mega Charizard Y. That's what makes this a Sun team (function: Sun).

Now let's move on to Garchomp. Garchomp is standard sun's Rock and Fire wrecker. In particular, it checks Pokemon such as Terrakion, Tyranitar, and Heatran, all of which can post a threat to Zard Y, its Sun, and its sweeper, Mega Venusaur. It also serves as the team's moderate-high Speed Pokemon (other examples in this category include the Musketeers and Lati@s- basically, everything higher than the critical 100 Spe tier but lower than Thundurus-I)

Next up is Venusaur. This is standard sun's weather abuser of choice, and is chosen particularly because of its high stats (one of the main reasons to use Sun anyway) It provides Speed, sleep, and a check to burns, Water / Electric types, and an immunity to Rage Powder.

Rotom-W's here to provide extra coverage against Water-types. Hydro Pump is great for checking Rock / Fire types as well, which it can do alongside Garchomp. Rotom-W also often covers the stat controlling aspect (or, part of it, in Fireburn's case) with either Speed control (Electroweb) or Attack control (Will-o-Wisp)

I'll talk about Aegislash next because its function is similar to that of Heatran's in finally's sun team. Aegislash, in this case, provides a valuable Trick Room counter to cover for Venusaur, and also provides a flat counter to Terrakion so Zard Y has something it can escape with. Its type coverage is really important, also being able to check Dragon-types and especially Latios. (Heatran does these things similarly; basically, you're looking for a Steel-type in this slot, both to counter Trick Room and to ward off Rock-type attacks, those finally chose to lose a bit on both for more Fire-type offense, but I think Fireburn's choice is better)

Finally, the wildcard. Fireburn chose Scrafty, which is interesting; it helps soften up physical hits for Rotom-W and also checks Mega Kang, which Sun teams often need a lot of help with. On the flipside, its typing also helps it check special attackers and Trick Room. In conjunction with Aegislash and Rotom-W, it forms the backbone of the team, and provides a lot of support options (status, speed control, intimidate, wide guard, etc) for the rest of the three sweepers. (finally uses Cresselia, I guess slapping all of the TR countering on one Pokemon, which is necessary because of his use of Heatran).


SO WHAT CAN WE LEARN ABOUT SUN??
Standard Sun has the following:
(Zard Y + Venu)
- At least 2 Rock / Fire type counters. Preferably, a Ground-type, and a Water-type to help do this job when the Sun goes down (or it's replaced by Rain / Sand). Garchomp and Landorus-T are the most popular choices here. In terms of Water-types, most things from Rotom-W to Azumarill to Keldeo work well here.
- A Trick Room counter. This is because Zard Y and Venusaur is easy pickings in TR. Pick something like a Ghost / Dark-type. Aegislash, Amoonguss I've seen, Scrafty, Bisharp (for more offensive Sun teams) can take this slot.
- At least 1 anti-special defensive Pokemon. Zard Y and Venusaur have trouble muscling past Dragons and Psychics because of their resistances / high spdef stats. Steel-types and Dark-types often work in this role. Heatran, Aegislash, Bisharp, Hydreigon, Scrafty will do the job.
- Attack and Speed control. This is important because 1/3 of the team is already dedicated to setting sun and utilizing it. Zard Y itself is in the Speed tier where support is almost absolutely necessary in order to not be out-offensed. Intimidate- Hitmontop is common, Landorus-T. Speed control can take the form of Tailwind too- Salamence, Hydreigon, and Latios are all plausible on Sun teams.



I'm not too big a fan of field effects abuse (I prefer plain and simple non-weather offense) so I don't have a team to contribute to the current discussion but those are my two (or probably more) cents
 
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Stratos

Banned deucer.
#20
Thank you electrolyte, ur a hero for understanding the point of this thread. In fact, what you said up there made sun click; i'd been trying to find it for a while but just couldn't get it

Kingofmars's Sun:

Laga's Sun:

Doubles Teambuilding Sun:

Fireburn Sun:

i finally have it.

This isn't quite as easy to explain as rain was, because team roles are a little more fluid than they seemed to be with rain, but bear with me.

First off, every team has Charizard because duh. On all four teams, slot 2 is the primary Fire-type killer. On kom's team, Aerodactyl serves as (with Sky Drop) one of his two Trick Room killers. On the other three teams, Garchomp/Terrakion serve as one of the two Rock-type killers. On all four teams, slot 3 is the Intimidate. On laga's team, Taunt Terrakion also serves as one of the two Trick Room killers. On laga's team, Salamence serves as one of the two Water-type killers. On all the other teams, Scrafty/Landorus-T serve as the one of the two Rock-type killers. On all four teams, slot 4 is one of the two Water-type killers. On all four teams, Slot 5 is the Dragon killer. On kingofmars's team, Mamoswine also works as the second Rock-type killer. On the other three teams, they serve as one of the two Trick Room killers. Slot 6 is, on three of the teams, the second Water-type killer and second Trick Room killer. It's no surprise that Venusaur is a natural fit on so many sun teams; not only does he kill Water-types and sleep Trick Room setters, but Grass also perfectly covers Fire defensively. But since Laga was so frugal about condensing all of these roles into his previous slots, he was actually able to afford a wild card (and frankly I'd like your logic on why you picked Deoxys-A! hence the tag) So, in summary, a Sun framework you could use is:
  • 1 Charizard
  • 2 Rock-type killers
  • 1 Fire-type killer
  • 2 Water-type killers
  • 1 Dragon killer
  • 2 Trick Room killers
  • 1 Intimidate
adding this to the OP :)))
 

Laga

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#22
I'd say this thread also notes how good teambuilders (if I do say so myself) consider synergy in somewhat similar ways, and therefore guides people who lack insight to dubs teambuilding with figuring out how you should think. It is especially noted well in the sun framework how important offensive synergy is. If you somehow didn't notice, most of the guidance refers to what your teammates should be there to eliminate (water killers, rock killers). This also shows in rain though, where the Steel slot is mostly for Dragon killing, and the Electric-type slot, which is good for both killing CharY and opposing Water-types.

What really weirded me out is how, despite my sun team actually being built around the hyper-offensive Terrakion / Bisharp / Deo-A core, can still be put on a sun team framework. That also shows that offensive synergy goes both ways, and that a good team structure is more about what your Pokemon can accomplish together, rather than opening up a pathway for one Pokemon (like some singles teams).

Finally, my explanation for picking Deo-A is that, as I said, I built the team around that offensive core. I thought to myself that Terrakion and Deo-A could break through and outspeed almost everything aside from Psychics, and then added Bisharp to the core to break past those and fuck with offensive lando-t. Bisharp also ended up helping me a lot with Dragons in general. I actually added Charizard at team slot 5 simply because it was the best offensive Mega for that team specifically (tried kanga, it sucked)!!!

Amazing thread, thanks for making this =)
 
#23
FIRE WATER GRASS seems to be coming into fashion is Smogon Doubles and I can see why. Having bulky Pokemon of these three types on the same team leads to a pretty awesome defensive backbone.

First off lets take a look at the core I chose for my team.
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 156 SpA / 80 SpD
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder
- Protect

Gyarados @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 150 Atk / 58 Def / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
At first glance it just looks like a solid, hard to break, selection of Pokemon. Upon closer inspection you'll find that only three types of attack can hit each of these Pokemon for neutral damage; Rock, Dark and Ghost. (Coincidentally, the next Pokemon I added happened to resist all three of those types but we'll save that for later.) It's all well and good being able to resist a lot of attacks, what's really important that you're able to make use of your defensive synergy, I opted to run a status move on each member of the core for this very reason as it helps wear down threats and thus makes cleaning up later on far easier. Thunder Wave helps me pick off faster threats and also deals with dangerous boosters like Mega Charizard X. Sleep Powder takes troublesome Pokemon almost entirely out of the game. Will-o-Wisp is hugely important for handling Pokemon like Mega Kangaskhan which can boost up and muscle through the core after it has been worn down a bit. Defensively orrientated teams are often plagued by Amoonguss which is why I opted to run Taunt in the last slot on Gyarados. It also helps me handle Trick Room and Substitute users like Hetaran.

With my next Pokemon I knew I had to be able to handle a few 'bogey' Pokemon that were beyond the reach of my FWG core. After scanning through the list of available Pokemon I decided I needed a solid check for Kyurem-B, Hydreigon and Landorus-T. All three would be tricky to face, particularly Substitute Kyurem-B which is a pretty huge threat to the core thanks to Terravolt. I decided that the best answer would be Assault Vest Scrafty which also happened to handle all 3 of the typings which my FWG could not resist between them. Scrafty added a second Intimidate user as well as Fake Out support which really comes in handy to support my final two Pokemon as well as the FWG core.

For my final two Pokemon I knew I needed powerful offensive presence to be able to make the last push to victory I opted to make use of a dangerous booster and a Substitute user. For my setup user I called upon the old powerhouse Belly Drum Azumarill. After reaching +6 Azumarill can tear through a multitude of threats with it's priority Aqua Jet, and, if my FWG core has done its job troublesome threats will either be sufficiently worn down or at least statused so that Azumarill can do its job. You can see Azumarill putting in work here. I decided I would use something I had little experience with as my Substitute user and ended up picking Landorus-I. With the backing of the FWG core, Landorus forces opportunities to set up a substitute from which it can begin to fire off Sheer Force boosted special attacks. Scrafty in particular helps maintain the Substitute through the use of Fake Out. This is a good example Substitute Landorus in action.

A final look at the team.

Anyone else with a FWG style team please post so we can draw some parallels, the above is just my take on how to best utilize a FWG core it would be cool to see if others have approached the idea from a different angle.
 
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Audiosurfer

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#24
My team also has a FWG core BLOOD TOTEM (Zard X / Rotom-W / Amoonguss). Interesting to see what you find, although I think FWG cores hadn't really dropped in popularity, just that more teams typically use more offensive versions of this core due to the fast paced nature of the metagame in general right now (like talonflame / keldeo / amoonguss or something). Team importable included below if you don't wanna click through the link.

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Flare Blitz
- Protect

Aegislash @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 99
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Wide Guard
- King's Shield

Rotom-Wash @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 84 SpA / 124 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Electroweb
- Protect

Scrafty @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Atk / 12 Def
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Stone Edge

Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 232 HP / 96 Def / 180 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Spore
- Rage Powder
- Giga Drain
- Protect

Landorus-Therian @ Earth Plate
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Protect
 
#25
http://pastebin.com/nzdQDXEJ
as a control of sorts, here's bog standard: the experience
An old team, which I've managed to win a room tour and 2nd two others with mostly by spamming it, so it should be okay.

The Core:


Definitely a specially-oriented team. Partially due to special FWG components usually being the most bulky and viable. These guys aren't that scary offensively, so Landog, Kanga and Latios serve the roles of fast and powerful sweepers to compensate. Judging from the other teams posted, I can see FWG tends to lean more on support and tanking, for somewhat obvious reasons (tight type synergy, preferred for a defensive core).

I'm bit hesitant to call this a playstyle, mostly due to the sheer flexibilty of it. It's not bound to one or two defining Pokemon, and I would think that at least one of any possible FWG core could beat any other Pokemon/core, making roles hard to assign. However, I suppose teams using FWG would be less likely to to use glass cannons, and would be more BOish. FWG cores are definitely not limited to no offensive pressure, with Keldeo, Breloom and Tflame being examples. With that being said, the very basis of the core is still good type synergy, and users would focus on good defensive typing more. I rarely see pure offensive FWG anyway. Basically, FWG is mostly BO to me.

My proposal for an archetype would be a Dragon Killer. They naturally resist their STAB moves, and are really the reason why one can't rely entirely on FWG for offense. One should include a drag slayer in either the core itself or somewhere else.

For me, I Kangaskhan and Latios serve as good answers to most dragons. Sucker Punch and Drain Punch deter Latios, Hydreigon and Kyurem-B, while Latios punishes Salamence and Garchomp.

Moving on to other teams, Kyle uses Aboma and Weavile which are god-tier answers to them. Totem has Azumarill, and Audiosurfer's ChariXard + Amoonguss threathens them greatly, not to mention Aegislash.

Something interesting is also no FWG team here is without both Intimidate and Fake Out. Looking through teams I could find, Pinoy's Meloetta team (http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...lemakers-an-xy-doubles-rmt-peaked-23.3511033/) is the only exception, and has neither of them. Instead, it makes up for it through Quick Guard and Defiant (Keldeo and Bisharp).

I dunno. I guess I'll try to think of more things later.