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The 2nd Law

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Intergalactic, Sep 23, 2012.

  1. Intergalactic

    Intergalactic

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
    Messages:
    53
    [​IMG]

    Introduction

    God damn it. Why, weather. Ever since the start of Gen V, everywhere. Not that it's a bad thing - it's thrown up a good number of interesting aspects of the game to use and get used to. But it's just getting boring now. I'm as guilty as anybody of using the various toys that were given to weather teams over the however long it's been - it's been the most popular way of playing, so why not use it? Yeah, my last team was an attempt at rain offense, but I apparently gave up on it (though thank you to everybody that gave suggestions, a lot of them did help very much - I just never really posted after that, sorry), and set my mind back on the playstyle that I was best at - stall.

    But more than that. I wanted the element of surprise, and to be able to use it to my advantage as often as I could. As well as looking at Pokémon that are underused in OU, I also decided to look at alternative sets for common OU Pokémon, hoping that it would give me a usable advantage when it mattered. I also knew that I wanted it to be weatherless, even if it was just to show that it's still a viable way of playing. I'd done weatherless offensive teams many times before, but only actually a stall-based team once or twice. Should be fun.

    There still seems to be some kind of assumption that just because a team doesn't utilise any specific kinds of weather, it's automatically beaten by them. Though I'm probably wrong, and will most likely be picked up on this, I'm of the opinion that the best way to counter weather is to use a weatherless team, not being constrained by any typing issues that may plague weather-based teams, just having a lot more options in general. It's something that I want people to realise again, though I'm not exactly the best person to show this, nor the team the best to prove it.

    I don't ladder, I don't enter tournaments, I don't do anything like that, so I have no rating number to give any of you nor a peak on any ladder to help brag about the team's success (honestly, there's not a whole lot anyway). The team's nothing special. It's not game-breaking, it's not going to peak in the top 2,000,000 of wherever I might ladder, nothing like that. Which is why I'm posting it. I'm bad at teambuilding, I use stupid Pokémon - I need help.

    Though this isn't my first RMT here, as I mentioned, it's the team that I've been working on for the longest, definitely - at least 3 months now - and there have been a good number of changes to the lineup in that time. As it stands now, it might not be the version that I'm most comfortable using, but it's the version that seems to be doing the most well against a variety of other teams.

    Teambuilding

    Show Hide
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    This is where I started. Gastrodon. Right off the bat I knew that I wanted to be able to take on as many different forms of weather as I could - of course, it's a weatherless stall team - and Gastrodon immediately sprung to mind as a way of beating the rain. As I mentioned in my previous RMT, I always have problems with VoltTurn, which Gastrodon also stops by walling Rotom-W, assuming they don't carry the dreaded and fairly uncommon Hidden Power [Grass]. One weakness to Grass-type attacks, easily covered. Seemingly a good base to start a team on.

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    Now, wanting to start covering weaknesses right away, I go for Skarmory, with the two of these Pokémon covering each other's weaknesses perfectly. This also gave me entry hazards to use, which are crucial on a stall team (obviously). There's honestly not much else to say here.

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    Rapid Spin, vital. Pretty much everyone and their mother carries at least Stealth Rock on a team, which I know would be a problem somewhere along the line. While it's a stall team, I still wanted a little offensive presence, which Starmie can provide. I decided to look over Life Orb for the set, though, anticipating that I'm going to want to bring it in a good number of times, especially when facing opposing stall, so I go for Leftovers and Recovery. Looking good so far.

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    At this point, it was clear that sun teams would be giving me trouble - a Venusaur with HP [Fire] or a Victreebel with Weather Ball would hit all three for super-effective damage, which I did not want. Heatran seemed like it could wall anything like that bar mixed Venusaur or HP [Ground] Volcarona (though I ran an Air Balloon set, so that wasn't a huge threat immediately). Two Steel-types looked good enough, so I didn't add any more. Fuck Dragon-types.

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    Speaking of Dragon-types, here she is. SubCM Latias came to me while I was thinking of a way to end the battle, and decided that she would be the best late-game sweeper for me. Switch in on something that doesn't hurt, Sub up, boost, spam Dragon Pulse. Simple, effective, and it worked.

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    And then I needed something that could take Special hits. Preferably something that could heal, and heal status conditions that I hated more than anything else. Completing the trio of Psychic-types that I didn't realise was a problem at the time (my thought process was effectively "fuck Dragon-types, fuck Dragon-types, fuck Fighting-types, fuck Fighting-types"), was Celebi. Could take hits well, could dish out painful Leaf Storms, could heal and Heal Bell others.

    Did that team go well? Yes, actually. But it had flaws. Many, many flaws. For one, Reuniclus and Hydreigon shit all over it. That was something that I hated. Secondly, I had nothing at all to beat Blissey with bar gradually wearing it down through entry hazards, Whirlwind and the odd Brave Bird from Skarmory. Not only that, but I also had all of the worst days VS SubDisable Gengar. Not ideal, let's be honest here. It needed fixing, obviously, so I sat down and tried to do just that.

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    One, I needed to fix that god awful weakness to Ghost-types and Dark-types. Starmie was out. It was good, but not that good. Tentacruel came in as its replacement, being another way this team can (semi) handle VoltTurn - it could just about manage to shrug off Scizor's U-Turns, I guess. It also meant that I could rely on Celebi less to clear hazards, since it automatically gets rid of Toxic Spikes.

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    Because of that, I then decided that Celebi could be the next to go. Forming a SkarmChans core (or whatever it's called, who cares), Chansey bought the ability to take many more hits than Celebi, while still being able to heal well and heal the rest of the team if I decided to go in that direction. While Blissey was indeed another choice, and maybe a smarter one since I couldn't guarantee that sandstorm or hail wouldn't pop up (Chansey's lack of every-turn recovery hurts here), the extra bulk that it offered was too good to pass up.

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    With nothing being able to do a thing if I somehow let the opponent set up with something like DDNite (I just had to hope that I could somehow get lucky with a weak attack, or hope that I already had Latias behind a Sub), I knew I needed to face that next. It seemed to be physical attackers that screwed me over more than anything (Chansey could still somewhat handle CM sets), so I wanted something that could a) Taunt and b) burn.

    Sableye. A stupid choice? Maybe. A bad one? Not really. Prankster Sableye, in my opinion, is one of the most underrated Pokémon in the game. Only two Pokémon are able to Taunt it before it Taunts them - Tornadus-I and Whimsicott, neither of which are seen as much as they could be. Prankster gives it priority Will-o-Wisp, Recovery, Taunt, every status attack in the game. Hell, you people know what Prankster does. Honestly great typing also gave me a check against Reuniclus - sets that lack Shadow Ball can't hit it at all - which the team sorely needed.

    By this point in the team's history, at some time I'd switched Heatran's set to TormenTran - after adding Chansey, I assume (it was able to take on Vocarona well, so why not). Sableye then replaced Heatran, me figuring that they would both serve a vaguely similar role in shutting down opponent's Pokémon.

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    The team was then becoming more and more focused on stalling the opponent out rather than doing any real damage through attacks, so I looked towards Latias once again. The rest of the team tended to do well in stalling until the very end, not giving Latias much of a chance to do its job, so I ended up replacing her too. The Chansey set I was using at the time lacked Wish and Protect, instead focusing on surviving by itself for as long as possible, not supporting the team. I wanted to fix that. I wanted to fix everything.

    I looked for Pokémon that could learn Wish. I'll be honest, there weren't many at all. Then I remembered what I wanted to do with the team. The element of surprise. Sableye provided that well, yes - seriously, why is it so uncommon - but there could be more. Salamence learned Wish. I went for it. Resisting Fighting-type attacks and having Intimidate as an ability was great for me, and the surprise factor of the set almost always gave me an advantage. It was great, and the team was starting to take shape.

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    Okay so Chansey and Blissey were still giving me problems. I don't think I can change that at all, so the seemingly best option was to go back to Starmie and instead have Psyshock somewhere in the set. Most members of the team can beat Blissey or Chansey in a one-on-one situation, but I at least wanted something that can damage it throughout the battle. Starmie. Starmie. More Starmie. Damn you, Starmie. Stop coming back. Seriously.

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    Okay, this was honestly the hardest choice that I had to make. By now, only two Pokémon had been a constant on the team - Gastrodon and Skarmory. However, I was still being beaten by boosting sweepers - the main of which was CM Reuniclus, which I did not want. Sableye was a check, yes, but that's all. Quagsire can at least slowly whittle its HP down, or at least PP stall it to death. With Sableye, Chansey and Quagsire, my Reuniclus problems aren't quite solved, but they're not team-breaking. I'm still iffy about this change, I'll be honest. I'm considering bringing it back.

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    One final change, courtesy of PK Gaming. Tornadus-T was still giving me trouble, not having anything on the team that could outspeed it, and only Chansey being able to take it on even remotely (it can tank a Superpower and heal it off, that's as far as that goes). It was mentioned to me that every member of the team had a way of recovering 50% of their total HP by themselves, something that I'd actually not picked up on at all, so having a FATMence on the team seemed... rather silly, to be honest.

    Apologies for the long-ass team building process and explanation. Like I said, the team's been in the making for at least 3 months, and I wanted to cover the process as well as I could. I think I did well with that.


    At a Glance

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    In-depth

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    Madness @ Leftovers
    Prankster | Calm (+SDef, -Atk)
    252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SDef
    Will-o-Wisp | Taunt | Recover | Night Shade

    I love using underused Pokémon, and Sableye is definitely there. Spin-blocker, fast status conditions, the ability to Taunt every Pokémon in the game (bar faster Prankster and Magic Bounce), general bulky Ghost-type. Sableye fulfils a lot of roles that this team probably couldn't do without. Though nowhere near the best Ghost-type to use - nor anywhere near the best Pokémon - it's one of the most important on the team. I almost always send this gal out first, it being able to shut down any and all opposing Pokémon that wish to inflict status or set up entry hazards, as well as having the amazing ability to cripple hard-hitting Pokémon such as Landorus or Terrakion with Will-o-Wisp - extremely useful if Skarmory or Quagsire are weakened, or if I wish to keep them healthy. Thought not the bulkiest Pokémon ever, it manages to stay alive for a startling number of turns with priority Recover.

    Walls Pokémon that will threaten me such as Reuniclus and Sigilyph, with Snarl also hitting them for decent damage while lowering their SpAtk stat, essentially doing the same job for special attackers that Will-o-Wisp does for physical Pokémon. While Foul Play may seem to be a better choice, being able to hit Pokémon that sport a higher Attack stat harder, that's not what this team does. This Sableye stalls, not focusing on doing much damage at all, just hang around for as long as it can. Snarl does its job just fine.

    While it can hit Reuniclus for some damage, however, if it carries Shadow Ball then there might be trouble. The SpDef drop chance isn't a huge concern, as I can Recover easily and lower its SpAtk back, but I am known to take chances when it comes to critical hits - if a Reuniclus gets a good hit like that on me, then it's free to wall most of everything else I have (I'm in real bad news if it carries Psyshock for Chansey).

    I'm not too sure what could replace this Sableye, as I don't think anything else does its job as well as it. Jellicent's a possibility, however it would add another weakness to Electric-type attacks that I don't think I can afford. Perhaps a SubSplit or SubDisable Gengar to do another good job of jamming the target, but I'm happy with leaving it as it is.

    Changes:
    • Night Shade > Snarl, suggested by Trinitrotoluene.

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    Animals @ Leftovers
    Unaware | Bold (+Def, -Atk)
    252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Earthquake | Recover | Toxic | Scald

    I hesitate to say that this is my sure-fire way of beating Gliscor, but it's the closest I can think of. Skarmory can take anything it throws at me, but can't do much damage at all. At least Quagsire can hit it with a Scald or two while it whittles away at my HP. Stockpile boosts Quagsire's defences to levels bordering on obscene, which becomes even worse for the opponent when they realise that their +6 Dragonite it barely scratching it. Hilarious for me, though. Quagsire's been the reason for a good number of ragequits. It never gets old.

    This thing does a great job against Terrakion and Landorus, as well as Thundurus-T to an extent (I lose VS Grass Knot, though). I must admit I'm missing the immunity to Water-type attacks that Gastrodon gave the team, and I've noticed a drop in performance against rain-based teams as a result of adding in Quagsire, but overall it seems to do just as well as the aforementioned sea slug.

    As I've mentioned a couple of times, I do consider replacing it with Gastrodon once again, but if I keep this set I'd also consider Earthquake over Stockpile, though it would lose a lot of its bulk - the number of opportunities that Quagsire gets to set up Stockpile borders on ridiculous.

    Changes:
    • Earthquake > Stockpile, suggested by A l e x a n d e r.
    • Relaxed > Bold, suggested by SA1TS.

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    Prelude @ Leftovers
    Sturdy | Impish (+Def, -SAtk)
    252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
    Brave Bird | Roost | Whirlwind | Spikes

    What the hell am I supposed to say here? It's a standard god damn Skarmory. For three generations, one of the best at its role of being a big metal bird. Along with Chansey and Quagsire, it forms a great physically defensive core, all of them covering each other's weaknesses nearly perfectly. Dragon-types that threaten the rest of the team are dealt with by this thing well, giving it time to Roost and set up Spikes against an Outrage. While it might not wall boosting physical attackers such as BU Conkeldurr or DD/BU Scrafty, it can easily either hit them, phase them out or hand them over to Quagsire to be taken care of slowly and painfully.

    Again, handles Landorus and Terrakion well - between it and Quagsire, that's pretty much a non-issue here - though Ferrothorn can still be an issue. The team only seems to have one real way of being able to deal with the spiked iron ball of doom, and that falls to Salamence, which I don't like. Taunt somewhere on this set could be very much welcome, though I'm not sure what I'd replace. My first guess would be Brave Bird, as I'm able to do damage to the mentioned Pokémon with Quagsire well.

    As far as replacing the Pokémon entirely goes, I'd welcome a Gliscor to the team with open arms, though I'd then be without Spikes, which I really do not like the idea of - a stall team with the only entry hazard being Stealth Rock doesn't strike me as ideal, even if I am firing out status conditions left, right and center.

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    Survival @ Eviolite
    Natural Cure | Bold (+Def, -Atk)
    120 HP / 252 Def / 136 SDef
    Stealth Rock | Softboiled | Seismic Toss | Aromatherapy

    This team's synergy isn't perfect - something that always gets to me is the fact that I have two Pokémon weak to Electric-type attacks, but only one immunity - but this girl is the reason that I don't obsess over it as much as I maybe used to do. Most Electric-type attacks are special, that's kind of a fact here - the only physical Electric-type attack I can name right off the top of my head is Wild Charge and whatever it is that Zekrom and Victini have (Fusion Bolt or something?).

    This lone-standing Chansey set was never a favourite of mine - I always like having a Wish Chansey/Blissey and Aromatherapy on the team, a role that Celebi before it provided (kinda) - but it's definitely helpful. Nearing the end of the game, chances are that I'd be able to win one-on-one against a Pokémon that the opponent has, since I'm able to take out physical attackers easier than special attackers, so it's not a lost battle as soon as Chansey's the last one standing. It gets a lot of chances to set up Stealth Rock through the game, as well as Toxic any unfortunate switch-ins due to the number of switches that it prompts (it's pretty stupid, almost forces as many as Landorus-T).

    Was never a fan of giving Chansey or Blissey max EVs in HP, but it really needs it - I can take a powerful hit from Genesect if needs be (though burning it beforehand would be a huge help). Works well with Sableye to achieve this, with one weakness between them which is covered easily. Getting the burn on Genesect can be extremely helpful to make sure that I'm not raped by U-Turn.

    I am not going to get rid of Chansey. I might replace it with Blissey, but it's essentially the same thing. Without Blissey or Chansey, this team gets swept by Latios, Volcarona, Rotom-W, you name it.

    Changes:
    • 120 HP / 252 Def / 136 SpD > 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef, suggested by Joeyboy.
    • Aromatherapy > Toxic, suggested by Joeyboy.

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    Panic Station Genderless @ Leftovers
    Serene Grace | Careful (+SDef, -SAtk)
    252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd
    Iron Head | Body Slam | Wish | Protect

    On the advice of PK Gaming, I replaced my Salamence with Jirachi. The team had problems with Tornadus-T, with only Chansey being able to do anything against a mixed set (which wasn't a whole lot anyway), but this Jirachi does a better job of countering it than anything here could dream of. As people mentioned, every member of the team could already heal themselves for 50% of their total HP, which I hadn't picked up on at all (embarrassingly), so Salamence being there as being a way of passing around healing suddenly seemed stupid.

    What else is there really to say about this set? It's Jirachi. It's annoying. It's going to piss so many people off for years to come, and that's a truly amusing thought. PK Gaming was right in saying that it does a lot more for the team than Salamence could - Salamence wasn't there for coverage reasons at all, nor was it there to wall anything in particular. It was there for surprise factor, which, I admit, might not have been the best road to take with the team.

    Changes:
    • Jirachi > Salamence, suggested by PK Gaming.

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]

    Unsustainable @ Leftovers
    Intimidate | Bold (+Def, -Atk)
    252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SAtk
    Wish | Protect | Dragon Tail | Fire Blast

    Wish Salamence! The hypest of Salamence sets! Why this isn't used more, I'll never know. My main switch-in to Fighting-types, even though most tend to carry Rock-types moves too - it can (probably) tank a -1 Rock Slide or whatever, Wish up and either switch out or stay in (when I expect a switch) for free HP. Also this team's main way of dealing with Ferrothorn outside throwing Seismic Tosses at it - I've not done damage calcs since changing Fire Blast from Flamethrower, but the latter cleanly 2HKOs, so it can't be bad.

    This slot would be taken with a Dragonite spread - possibly ParaShuffle - but the team really needs a way to deal with Ferrothorn, which this gives. Intimidate forces a good number of switches for the opponent, but I need to be careful around opposing Tyranitar - Ice Beam from a standard mixed set does around 97%, if I remember correctly. If played well (and if the opponent flat-out refuses to switch, I can switch and pivot around Salamence to rack up maybe two Intimidate cuts, paving a way for some healings.

    Changes:
    • Protect > Roost, suggested by A l e x a n d e r.


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    Supremacy Genderless @ Leftovers
    Natural Cure | Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
    252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Rapid Spin | Scald | Ice Beam | Recover

    Finally, this has taken long enough. This team is going to hate opposing stall teams and entry hazards, so this is the answer. Tentacruel wasn't giving the team enough offensive presence, and I had huge troubles with Chansey and Blissey, which Starmie seems to be able to take on semi-well, as well as being able to Recover when needed. Being able to 2HKO 252/252/4 Blissey is definitely a godsend, though most members of the team are able to take it down if it's the last Pokémon the opponent has.

    Choosing the one attack other than Psyshock is definitely tricky, and I have gone for Hydro Pump for now solely for STAB purposes. Ice Beam is tempting, and I may end up going with it since this team has bad times with most Dragon-types. Though it loses to Jellicent due to lacking Thunderbolt, other members of the team (Chansey) are perfectly capable (Chansey) of taking it down in a stall war situation (Chansey).

    Changes:
    • 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe > 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd, suggested by Joeyboy.
    • Scald > Hydro Pump, suggested by Joeyboy.
    • Ice Beam > Psyshock, suggested by PK Gaming.

    Look Again

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    Last Words

    Well, what can I say. This has been so much typing, and I'm sorry to anybody that's read all of this. I really didn't mean to get carried away and type this much, but hey. I enjoyed it anyway. I know it's not the ideal stall team, and I use some weird Pokémon (Sableye and Quagsire, I feel bad for even using them at all), but it's a team that's doing well for me. That's not that normal with me, if I'm honest - I'm actually really bad at this game. Thanks for reading, and I'm looking forward to seeing any suggestions.

    Importable

    PHP:
    Madness (Sableye) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs
    252 HP 120 Def 136 SDef
    Calm Nature 
    (+SDef, -Atk)
    Will-O-Wisp
    Taunt
    Recover
    Night Shade

    Animals 
    (Quagsire) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Unaware
    EVs
    252 HP 252 Def 4 SDef
    Relaxed Nature 
    (+Def, -Spd)
    Earthquake
    Recover
    Toxic
    Scald

    Prelude 
    (Skarmory) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs
    252 HP 240 Def 16 Spd
    Impish Nature 
    (+Def, -SAtk)
    Brave Bird
    Roost
    Whirlwind
    Spikes

    Survival 
    (Chansey) (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs
    120 HP 252 Def 136 SDef
    Bold Nature 
    (+Def, -Atk)
    Stealth Rock
    Softboiled
    Seismic Toss
    Aromatherapy

    Panic Station 
    (Jirachi) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs
    252 HP 224 SDef 32 Spd
    Careful Nature 
    (+SDef, -SAtk)
    Iron Head
    Body Slam
    Wish
    Protect

    Supremacy 
    (Starmie) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs
    252 HP 4 SAtk 252 Spd
    Timid Nature 
    (+Spd, -Atk)
    Rapid Spin
    Scald
    Ice Beam
    Recover
  2. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast @manu 11: Arcticblast joined, gg all
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a SPL Winner
    Moderator

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    Wow. I looooooove how you're using WishMence, that might be my favorite set ever. Snarl on Sableye is actually really cool too. My only suggestion is that you run Aromatherapy over Toxic on Chansey - stall teams hate being statused, and you have status moves on other Pokemon as well.
  3. Joeyboy

    Joeyboy Check out my Youtube channel! JoeyboyGames!
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,424
    Cool team man! I love me some Fat Salamence.

    First I suggest trying a bulkier spread on Starmie. Try 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe also try Scald over Hydro Pump. These changes are to make Starmie a better fit for your very defensive teams. The HP EVs make Starmie a surprisingly effective wall while its speed allows it to utilize a quick Recover. Scald also allows Starmie to burn one of its main counters, Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn usually acts as a pseudo-spinblocker for many teams and Scald allows Starmie to get some passive damage on the steel behemoth.

    I also want to suggest a different EV spread on Chansey. Choice Specs Drizzle boosted water attacks are some of the toughest moves to wall and while Chansey is an amazing special sponge in Gen 5 you really need to run more SDef EVs. Try 120 HP / 252 Def / 136 SpD with a Bold nature.

    I recommend Articblast's suggestion of Aromatherapy over Toxic on Chansey.

    Finally something you could try is Calm Mind over Snarl on Sableye. Calm Mind provides a similar boost against Special Attackers while having priority and lasting if your opponent switches out. While this leaves Sableye with no attacks I can't imagine Snarl does much damage. Plus Sableye shouldn't really become Taunted so its ok it has no attacks. Will-o-Wisp surely does more damage than Snarl.

    Hope you try them out, really cool team! Don't worry about using weird pokemon they're awesome!

    Good Luck!
  4. Lohgock

    Lohgock

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    369
    Hey, really nice team you have there.
    However, it seems like Tornadus-T totally destroys you with Hurricane and Superpower. It's hard to fix without changing too much, but I think a specially defensive Skarmory will do a better job checking Tornadus-T.
    Just a little suggestion, you can probably play around it somehow, nice team again!
  5. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast @manu 11: Arcticblast joined, gg all
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,206
    Actually, as long as Chansey is around, Tornadus-T can't beat it, since Chansey just heals off the progressively smaller hits from Superpower. An uninvested LO Superpower from Tornadus-T does 44.11 - 52.3%.
  6. Alexander.

    Alexander.
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,661
    Hello, nice stall team! I have some advice for it. At first, use bulky Starmie with max hp and max defense, you are weak to Keldeo and bulky starmie can help you to block it, use protect > roost on your Salamence to understand the opponent's move (protect can help you also with choice item users) and use EQ > stockpile on your quagsire because subCMRachi is a problem for your team.

    Best of luck with your team!
  7. Queen of Randoms

    Queen of Randoms I'm So Crown
    is a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    164
    This may be a silly suggestion, and I may be totally missing something, but I'd suggest running a Relaxed (+Def,-Spd) nature on Mence as opposed to Bold. He has nice speed, but even nicer attack. I'm not sure if there's anything special you're out-speeding for a specific purpose, but I feel like it's more useful to have Dragon Tail doing more damage than to try to maintain his Speed.
  8. Intergalactic

    Intergalactic

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
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    That's a suggestion that I did see coming, so I'll be giving that a go. Since replacing Celebi, I'd not noticed status conditions as much, but I still know how badly this team can fall to them. Thanks for the rate.

    Okay, the bulky Starmie set does look good, so I will be trying that EV spread and Scald out, thank you. I'm not crazy about the Chansey EVs, but I'll take your word for it and try them too, but it looks like it would open me up more to Tornadus-T's Superpower - only a little, though. And yes, I will almost definitely be replacing Toxic with Aromatherapy there too.

    I'm going to have to say no to using Calm Mind over Snarl on Sableye, though. While you're correct in that Snarl does little damage to Reuniclus - the main Pokémon it's there for - replacing it would mean that I have no way at all to harm it on that set, since burns and Toxic won't be doing anything to it. This would mean that Quagsire is left with taking it on by itself - a job that it does well, yes, but not 100% of the time.

    Thank you very much! It means a lot to me that people here are liking it!

    As Arcticblast said, Chansey can take a Superpower with the current spread and heal off the damage. With Regenerator, it may be a little annoying to take down, but at least I have something for it. Changing Skarmory's EVs is something that I had been thinking about, though, so thank you for that, and thank you for the rate!

    I'll have to say no to the suggested EVs for Starmie, as having that one Pokémon with a reasonably high Speed stat has been serving me well. I don't want the whole of this team to be slow, and Starmie can occasionally threaten things slower than it well. Protect > Roost on Salamence seems good, so thank you for that - I'll give that a go. Earthquake looks good over Stockpile too, since the defensive boosts aren't amazingly needed. I was iffy until I ran some calcs and realised that it would be doing 60-71% on plain SubCM Jirachi, which I honestly didn't expect (I'm so tired right now). Thanks for that!

    Dragon Tail isn't going to be doing huge amounts of damage with its 60 Base Power. With the Bold nature right now, Salamence still outspeeds Adamant 252 Speed Scizor, and is able to do some good damage with Fire Blast (or Flamethrower, depending on which I use - I switch them around sometimes). Salamence could also take a Bullet Punch easily, especially if it drops Scizor's Attack stat. Not as important, but still something, Bold nature would lower any confusion damage that I may have to endure (yeah, a non-issue pretty much). Also bear in mind that I will have hazards up - if I'm missing a KO on anything by running a -Atk nature on Salamence, they'll be KOd when they try to switch in next. Thank you for the suggestion, though.

    I just want to say thank you to all of you so far, too. Honestly, I didn't expect this team to be liked by anybody, or receive any praise or Luvdiscs, let alone 4 of them so far (kicks my last team square in the face). I'll definitely be giving a lot of these changes a go, so thank you all for the suggestions!

    Testing:
    • [​IMG] Aromatherapy > Toxic - Arcticblast, Joeyboy.
    • [​IMG] 120 HP / 252 Def / 136 SpD > 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef - Joeyboy.
    • [​IMG] 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe > 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd - Joeyboy.
    • [​IMG] Scald > Hydro Pump - Joeyboy.
    • [​IMG] Protect > Roost - A l e x a n d e r.
    • [​IMG] Earthquake > Stockpile - A l e x a n d e r.
  9. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene ♫~ i don't want to know what she did; she is not who i am ~♫
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    Alright. You sent me a request to rate your team, and here I am. I love stall teams, and I think they're pretty awesome to see emerge in the RMT forum, given the massive influx of offensive teams with the advent of BW2. Yours in particular employs some creative Pokemon which I've had success with in BW1, such as Sableye and the almighty FATmence. However, there are some Pokemon which I think are a burden for your team to face. For one, Jellicent is definitely problematic, since its winning combination of bulk and speed allow it to Taunt and Toxic most of your team members before you can do anything back to it. Currently, your only team member that can even stand a chance against it is Sableye. To make fighting Jellicent easier, I'd recommend replacing Snarl with Night Shade. CM Reuniclus and Sigilyph take progressively less from Snarl as they boost up, and I think that being able to deal a consistent 100 HP of damage to the both of them is better for your team. With Taunt, Night Shade should allow you to KO Jellicent far more reliably than with Snarl. SubSD Terrakion also looks like a slight issue for your team to face, since it can 2HKO Skarmory and Salamence after a boost. Quagsire does a pretty good job in dealing with it, so you shouldn't have to worry too much, and since it's uncommon, careful play should do well in keeping it down. A summarized list of recommendations can be found below.

    Nitpicks:
    [​IMG]
    Snarl ----> Night Shade

    I'd also recommend going through with the Chansey and Starmie EV spread changes suggested by Joeyboy. All in all, nice team. Have a nice day, and before I forget...Luvdisc'd.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    ^Foul Play completely outclasses Night Shade if your targets are Reuniclus, Sigilyph and Jellicent.
  11. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent Yeah, well. The Dude abides
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    Sableye will just Taunt them, so they won't be boosting up. This team is amazing.
  12. Intergalactic

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    I'm just amazed by the support that this team's getting, especially from some people that whose teams I've seen here before - ones that have been extremely popular and well-received - and thought "one day..."

    Cherub Agent's right in that nothing's going to be setting up against Sableye (and thanks for the kind words), but I think I will give Night Shade a go over Snarl. Foul Play only does between 10 and 40 HP more damage on both Pokémon, which isn't much for what it is. Night Shade's going to be an option against a lot more Pokémon.

    Testing:
    • [​IMG] Night Shade > Snarl - Trinitrotoluene.

    And again, huge thanks to everybody. I never thought I'd be seeing Luvdiscs next to one of my thread titles.
  13. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent Yeah, well. The Dude abides
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    OK, so this team really intrigues me (mainly really because it's so original at the moment), so I'm gonna see if I can help out as well. Some threats to this team that really stand out to me are Salamence, Jirachi and Latias. If Salamence is mixed, it can just nuke everything with Draco Meteor, Fire Blast and Outrage. I know you can play around it with Skarmory and Chansey, but if it's a Moxie variant with Life Orb you're in trouble. Dragon Dance versions on the other hand can also be extremely difficult to play around, especially if they're carrying a Lum Berry. Latias is an excellent stallbreaker with Calm Mind, Refresh, Roost and Dragon Pulse, and is incredibly threatening to you if it's the last Pokemon on your opponent's team. Jirachi has plenty of opportunities to set up Substitutes and Calm Minds (Quagsire can't really do much to it at the moment if it's running Psychic). To solve these threats, I recommend you try out Cursire (Quagsire with Curse lol). The set is Curse, Earthquake, Ice Punch and Recover. Curse and Ice Punch will allow you to beat practically any boosting Dragon, and has excellent coverage with STAB Earthquake (which is extremely vital if you want to defeat Jirachi). It also gives you an actual sweeper of sorts (a win condition, one might say). I know that you can Taunt Jirachi with Sableye, but Jirachi will take nothing from Snarl and parahax Sableye with Thunder (quite inevitable really). Quagsire with Curse and Earthquake can set up on Jirachi cheerfully all day, and 2HKO with Eq even without a boost iirc. Stockpile seems really iffy to me, and relying on an uninvested SpA STAB move coming from 65 SpA means Quagsire won't be hurting anyone any time soon.

    So yeah, sorry I rambled there at the end lol, I tend to do that, and basically here's the set I think you should try out:

    Quagsire @ Leftovers
    Careful / Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    - Curse
    - Recover
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Punch

    The analysis says that Ice Punch is illegal with Unaware, but thankfully that's no longer the case, thanks to the B2W2 tutors. It's just outdated. You can pour some more EVs into Defense if you want to take physical threats such as Terrakion on better if you don't have time to Curse.
  14. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Venusaur in the sun 6-0s you man. Growth / Sludge Bomb / Giga Drain / Hidden Power Fire can beat Chansey since Giga Drain heals about as much damage as LO + Seismic Toss, while it OHKOs like everything else on your team. I personally hate the set, but maybe a Parashuffler Dragonite might fit better on your team instead of Salamence?
  15. Intergalactic

    Intergalactic

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    I used the set at the start of BW1, and it did work well, and was too an option that I was considering while thinking of using Quagsire here in the first place. One thing's getting to me, though. If I use that set along with Aromatherapy > Toxic on Chansey (which I will be sticking with), then the only status condition on the team would be Sableye's Will-o-Wisp, meaning that I'd pretty much have to only rely on entry hazards to do damage until the endgame. While I can see how it would be working on this team very well, I really don't want to lose all Toxic on the team.

    I will give it a go, though, and see if the lack of Toxic damage is really as big of a problem as I'm assuming. Thanks.

    I'd actually not picked up on this - I've not been running into as many sun teams for some reason - so thanks for bringing it up, I can see how big of a threat it would be. I'm a fan of the ParaShuffle set on Dragonite, but Salamence really is doing a lot for the team, especially with Intimidate. I'd be willing to give it a try, definitely, but I really wouldn't like the idea of losing Salamence.
  16. zzazzdsa

    zzazzdsa

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    I'm going to have to agree with shrang on this one; while WishMence is pretty useful for intimidating stuff and phazing, EVERYTHING on your team has some form of 50% recovery, so passing wishes seems a bit pointless to me. In addition to Growth Venusaur, a whole armada of sun attackers give you trouble, including volcarona (fire blast in sun after quiver dances does astronomical damage to chansey and salamence, and roost/lum berry makes it all the more difficult to take down) and Magma Storm Heatran (trapkills chansey, has a field day against the rest of the team). Really, I can't see salamence doing too much for you besides phazing and taking physical hits, and quite frankly the latter is a little pointless with quagsire and skarmory taking basically every physical hit in the game (besides CBterra close combats, which sableye manhandles). For this reason, I recommend using Sdef Substitute Dragonite.


    Dragonite @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    Calm
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    - Substitute
    - Dragon Tail
    - Roost
    - Fire Blast/Thunder Wave

    This set does much of what salamence did, but now you have a reliable way of beating Venusaur and Volcarona in sun. Thunder Wave is probably the better move here, as it beats Heatran reliably (stall for parahax), but if Ferrothorn is a problem, go with Fire Blast.

    In addition, Starmie should not be running that much special attack. Tyranitar is too common for comfort and you aren't OHKOing Keldeo and Terrakion without a life orb anyway, so you might as well run 252 HP/4 Def/ 252 Spe to help improve Starmie's bulk while still keeping its speed intact. You 2hko keldeo with this spread, which is always welcome.

    Also, Quagsire would really enjoy Earthquake to hit steels with, but if you can handle them fine with your current set, by all means stick with it.

    Finally, Snarl is an interesting idea, but every special attacker that would want to switch into sableye is faster and can O/2HKO it anyway, so unless there is a sudden influx of TR Reuniclus or something in the metagame, I'd stick with Foul Play.

    tl;dr

    Salamence -> Dragonite
    Snarl -> Foul Play on Sableye
    252 HP/4 Def/ 252 Spe on Starmie

    Optional:
    Toxic or Stockpile -> Earthquake on Quagsire
  17. Intergalactic

    Intergalactic

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    I suppose I will give that Dragonite a go, then. I'm going to be trying out Night Shade > Snarl on Sableye, as I mentioned, so Ferrothorn becomes less of a problem due to that. I'm not entirely understanding the appeal of Foul Play here, as burns are factored into the damage calculation. I've also already said that I will be testing out that EV spread on Starmie, so thanks for backing that up too. As I mentioned, I'm not looking forward to replacing Toxic on Quagsire, as I'll then not have any status-inducing moves other than Will-o-Wisp, so I would probably go with Earthquake > Stockpile. Thanks for the rate.
  18. C05ta

    C05ta

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    Sorry that I don't have time for a full rate but, if you want a reliable check to ferrothorn which also handles fighting types, you should run Bulky CM Reuniclus. It can switch in without worry of leech seed and proceed to setup or hit something hard on the switch.

    Reuniclus (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Psychic
    - Focus Blast
    - Recover
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Foul Play is usually better than Night Shade because with it, you can 2hko many special attackers that would switch into you, such as Celebi, Alakazam, Lati@s, Gengar, Starmie, and Espeon and you also deal with the aforementioned threats better (Reuniclus, Jellicent, Sigilyph). Night Shade's only use is dealing some damage to Heatran (which you shouldn't stay in in the first place, and hitting it with Night Shade on the switch is way worse than actually switching into something that can handle him), Infernape and max HP / max Def Volcarona (which is risky to fight, because Fiery Dance) (offensive Volcarona is hit equally hard by Night Shade and Foul Play).
  20. Intergalactic

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    If this was a bulky offense team, then I would consider using a Reuniclus somewhere, but it's not - I'm focusing this team more towards the heavy side of stall. It can check Ferrothorn, but it doesn't fit anywhere on the team well. Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm going to have to say no thank you.

    As I mentioned, I have big troubles with Ferrothorn. While it's true that Foul Play's going to hit the mentioned Pokémon hard, I have Pokémon that can deal with most of them (Gengar and Volcarona are a stretch, but I can work around it). You say the the only use for Night Shade would be to hit Heatran, but if I'm correct then Ferrothorn, which I'm mentioned a good few times as a problem, only takes 6-7% from a Foul Play.

    What was the point here?
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    But Ferrothorn is shut down by Taunt + WoW, and slowly dies from burn damage
  22. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent Yeah, well. The Dude abides
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    you could run flamethrower blissey over chansey to alleviate the venusaur weakness i guess, as an uninvested flamethrower does 53.2% - 63.1% to an uninvested venusaur in the sun. also obviously helps against ferrothorn
  23. Intergalactic

    Intergalactic

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    As I mentioned, burns factor into the damage calculation, so what happens when I inevitably end up burning something that Foul Play would be hitting? I'll test it out, fine, and I appreciate your point, but I don't think it's going to work for me. Of course, this may be something that I'm happy to be wrong about, but we'll see.

    True, but he trouble is deciding what to get rid of on the Chansey set. Taking out Toxic to make way for Aromatherapy was annoying enough. I don't know what else I could replace in that set.
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Fou Play uses the opponent's Atk stat, which remains the same even if he is burned, so you deal the same damage to a burnt opponent. Your damage will be halved if YOU are burned. Anyway try out both moves and decide for yourself.
  25. Intergalactic

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    Wow okay, my apologies. I got something wrong.

    Might as well use this post for some updates. Basically, all of the changes I've said I've tested so far I've decided to go with for now. There have been more mentioned that I will test, so yeah. Thanks for the great suggestions so far, everybody.

    Suggestions Implimented:
    • [​IMG] Aromatherapy > Toxic - Arcticblast, Joeyboy.
    • [​IMG] 120 HP / 252 Def / 136 SpD > 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef - Joeyboy.
    • [​IMG] 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe > 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd - Joeyboy.
    • [​IMG] Scald > Hydro Pump - Joeyboy.
    • [​IMG] Protect > Roost - A l e x a n d e r.
    • [​IMG] Earthquake > Stockpile - A l e x a n d e r.
    • [​IMG] Night Shade > Snarl - Trinitrotoluene.

    Testing:
    • [​IMG] Cursesire > Current set - Cherub Agent.
    • [​IMG] ParaShuffle Dragonite > FATMence - shrang, zzazzdsa.
    • [​IMG] Foul Play > Night Shade - alexwolf, zzazzdsa.

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