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The Art Of War (Peaked 8th)

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Max Fightmaster, Feb 21, 2012.

  1. Max Fightmaster

    Max Fightmaster

    Oct 8, 2008

    Hi, thanks for reading this. Ubers is a freaking awesome metagame, and it always has been (I guess except for RBY where there were only 2 ubers). Everything is faster paced, which is how I like it. To reflect this, I tried building an offensive team devoted to hitting hard and fast, and immediately it began wrecking shit. "Opportunities multipy as they as seized", and the same holds true for this team. All the Pokemon here are great at applying pressure, opening more holes for the rest of the team to exploit. Zekrom and Kyogre hit like freaking nukes, while Arceus, Giratina-O, Skarm & Dialga are solid choices for keeping the opponent at bay, especially Arceus who can double as a check for common sweepers and a sweeper himself. I'd do a little more laddering before sharing but as the schoolwork piles up, I just don't have the time anymore, so I'll just post it here.


    Xerxes (Dialga) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 SAtk / 200 SDef
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    • [​IMG] Stealth Rock
    • [​IMG] Draco Meteor
    • [​IMG] Fire Blast
    • [​IMG] Roar

    Xerxes starts us off most of the time since it's probably the best lead in Ubers right now. Seriously, try it, it matches up favorably with almost every lead except Deoxys-A and Groudon. Some of the time I lead off with a Draco Meteor, breaking sashes and dealing massive damage to the frailer leads, but most of the time I try to set up rocks as soon as possible. Everyone on this team loves hazards, it turns a lot of 2HKOs into OHKO, and Dialga is pretty reliable at this. Fire Blast lets me fry Lead Groudon and since everyone for odd reason thinks Ferrothorn is safe against Dialga, it OHKO's it in neutral weather. The EVs turns Palkia's 2HKO with Spacial Rend into a 3HKO and it keeps Water Spout from 3HKOing unless Kyogre carries Specs.


    Charlemagne (Arceus-Grass) @ Meadow Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    • [​IMG] Calm Mind
    • [​IMG] Grass Knot
    • [​IMG] Ice Beam
    • [​IMG] Recover

    Arceus is my main answer to Kyogre as Dialga is typically low on HP after leading and Zekrom hates taking Ice Beams. Calm Mind Grass Arceus is a freaking genius pokemon, it's pretty much a universal counter to weather starters, it breaks Tyranitar, Groudon and Kyogre handily with Grass Knot. This lets me switch to Kyogre to set up my own rain, where this team functions best without all the Mewtwo's wrecking shit with sun boosted Fire Blasts and sandstorm recoil whittling away at my sweepers. But outside of ruining weather, Arceus is damn near unstoppable if you aren't carrying Chansey and/or Blissey. It's handy resistances to Water, Ground and Electric and it's 120/120/120 defenses make it so easy to pull off at least one Calm Mind, hell, I can usually get 2 or 3 off before I'm forced to attack.


    Cyrus (Kyogre) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 52 HP / 252 SAtk / 204 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    • [​IMG] Thunder
    • [​IMG] Water Spout
    • [​IMG] Surf
    • [​IMG] Ice Beam

    Kyogre serves as the glue to this team. I previously had Terrakion here, to better counter ExtremeSpeed Arceus but that was before I changed to Skarmory. Water Spout bombs teams, and if I can get it out at max HP, chances are something is getting KO'd. Thunder lets me fry Manaphy's while Surf and Water Spout pummel everything in sight. Ice Beam lets me beat the ever annoying Shaymin-S. Kyogre's speed let me handle many of the more threatening sweepers Ubers has to offer, including Deoxys and Darkrai, both of which would decimate my slower team without him.


    Alexander (Zekrom) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    • [​IMG] Bolt Strike
    • [​IMG] Hone Claws
    • [​IMG] Outrage
    • [​IMG] Substitute

    Zekrom is a freaking badass. I mean look at this thing, it just tells you flat out that it's going to destroy at least a couple of your pokemon. When it was a banded version it definitely wrecked shit, but with Substitute it gives me a second set up sweeper along with a ton more flexibility. No more losing in the late game because I can't switch moves! Substitute is probably the best move in the entire game and it's a bulky set up sweeper such as Zekrom's best friend. After one boost, Zekrom is able pick apart everything in Ubers but the main draw to this set is it's ability to lure in and smack around Ferrothorn, who gives the team a few problems as nothing can reliably break it. Minus a Fire Blast in neutral weather from Dialga of course.


    Ivan IV (Giratina-O) @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 208 HP / 60 Atk / 188 Def / 52 Spd
    Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
    • [​IMG] Will-O-Wisp
    • [​IMG] Draco Meteor
    • [​IMG] Dragon Tail
    • [​IMG] Shadow Sneak

    Giratina-O is without a doubt the best Spinblocker in the game, being able to keep my hazards up while breaking stall is a godsend to this team. While it doesn't have as much firepower as Mixed Ray, who previously held this spot, it makes up with it with it's awesome bulk, great resistances that allow me to switch in to almost anything, and access to a priority move that can severely dent Mewtwo, a pokemon that caused me a few problems in the past. In fact, Giratina, despite running an offensive set, it's really more defensively inclined. There's that thing about it blocking spinning so the rest of my pokemon can sweep, but it also stops not only Mewtwo, but it checks Groudon, Excadrill, and Ho-oh. In fact, it handles most set up sweepers well with Dragon Tail racking up residual damage. The EVs let me survive a Spacial Rend from Palkia, survive a Psystrike from a +1 Mewtwo and 2HKO that son of a bitch with Shadow Sneak, and avoid being 2HKO'd by Arceus's +2 Shadow Claw.


    Augustus (Skarmory) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    • [​IMG] Spikes
    • [​IMG] Roost
    • [​IMG] Whirlwind
    • [​IMG] Taunt

    Skarmory rounds out the team by being my main counter to ExtremeSpeed Arceus. I'm kind of shaky about my reliance on Skarm to stop it though since Skarm doesn't have any attacking moves and it loses to it one on one since I have to Roost eventually, or at least I was until I got the great suggestion to change the EVs, this new spread gives me the ability to only be 2HKO'd by a +2 Arceus pretty much all of the time. Anyway like I said before, the team appreciates hazards so much, especially Giratina-O. 3 layers of Spikes and rocks open up so many opportunities for KO's. Speaking of hazards, Skarmory is a full stop to most other spikers in Ubers with Taunt. His awesome Dragon resist lets me come in on choiced dragon moves or Outrage and set up. The amount of Electric & Fire attacks it lures is also awesome because of the multitute of opportunities it give Zekrom to switch in.​

    Threat List & Ladder pic (open)

    [​IMG]Arceus - Arceus is way too versatile to counter everything but Sword Dance sets are whirlwinded out pretty easily by Skarmory and Dialga can roar out CM variants that don't pack a fighting or Ground type move.
    [​IMG] Blaziken - Giratina is practically the perfect counter to Blaziken, as it can switch in on Hi Jump Kick, take a Flare Blitz and force it out with Dragon Tail.
    [​IMG] Darkrai - Darkrai is a bit tricky but it can take a +2 Dark Pulse, outspeed, and OHKO with Surf.
    [​IMG] Deoxys - Kyogre can switch in on lead variants and Water Spout it to death.
    [​IMG] Deoxys-A - Giratina's priority is practically the best counter to this thing. I'll have a hell of a hard time switching it in though.
    [​IMG] Deoxys-S - Deoxys-S typically leads off against my Dialga and while I can't stop it from setting up rocks, I can Draco Meteor first turn while it uses Taunt or Stealth Rock and Fire Blast the next turn.
    [​IMG] Dialga - Grass Arceus doesn't take much from it's Draco Meteor and it can pretty much set up on it under rain. Outrage is pretty annoying though but Skarm can switch in on that and whirlwind it out.
    [​IMG] Excadrill - Excadrill is a pretty cool pokemon. I wish I had a chance to try it in OU before it got banned. Anyway Skarmory beats all variants. Rapid Spin sucks but Giratina can take a Shadow Claw and Will-O-Wisp it.
    [​IMG] Garchomp - Skarmory can take the SD in the rain and whirlwind it out. Fire Blast hurts though.
    [​IMG] Giratina - Giratina is annoying as hell but it hates taking Draco Meteor's from Dialga, Giratina-O or an Outrage from Zekrom. It's also pretty easy to switch them in when he rests. He's still a bit of a problem but he can't do much of anything besides sit there and shuffle pokemon.
    [​IMG] Giratina-O - Dialga can switch in on a lot of it's moves and OHKO with Draco Meteor
    [​IMG] Groudon - Grass Arceus is a great counter to this, since it can switch in on an Earthquake and easily OHKO with Grass Knot.
    [​IMG] Ho-Oh - Ho-Oh is a serious issue. Rocks help greatly when I have to battle this thing but other than that, I'll probably lose something to this thing. Kyogre can force it out though.
    [​IMG] Kyogre - Dialga doesn't take much from it's attacks, outside of Water Spout, which gets weaker and weaker each time it switches in. Dialga can't really hit hard enough back though, which is why I'm thinking of running Thunder. Grass Arceus can also get a CM on it and KO with Grass Knot.
    [​IMG] Lugia - Zekrom just obliterates it with Bolt Strike, and thanks to the negative priority on Dragon Tail, it can only do anything back with Ice Beam.
    [​IMG] Manaphy - Kyogre can switch in on everything bar Grass Knot and easily beat it with Thunder.
    [​IMG] Mewtwo - Mewtwo can be checked pretty reliably with Giratina-O because with hazards up, Shadow Sneak easily 2HKOs and it can survive a Psystrike.
    [​IMG] Palkia - Palkia has no true counters but Calm Grass Arceus, thanks to it's useful resistances, can set up on reliably in rain.
    [​IMG] Rayquaza - Rayquaza is hard as hell to switch into. I just typically rely on revenge killing it.
    [​IMG] Reshiram - Kyogre is my closest thing to a check that I have on this team, but Draco Meteor and Outrage hit like nukes regardless. I have to really play around this thing.
    [​IMG] Shaymin-S - It's still annoying. I can revenge kill it with Kyogre and Skarmory takes pretty much everything it can throw at it minus a Hidden Power Fire, but in the rain, it probably won't do much.
    [​IMG] Thundurus - Grass Arceus can beat non Nasty Plot variants with Ice Beam although it hates taking a Thunder Wave. Kyogre can revenge kill Nasty Plot variants reliably too.
    [​IMG] Zekrom - Zekrom is a pain, but since a lot of them are choiced I can abuse the hazards to make it a bit easier to deal with. Giratina-O can absorb a Focus Blast, outspeed, and Will-O-Wisp or Draco Meteor Mixed Zekrom to death though.

    [​IMG] Bisharp - Skarmory can whirlwind it out, but on paper it seems like it could be pretty threatening. Haven't seen it in practice though.
    [​IMG] Blissey - Zekrom can set up on it pretty easily. Or rather it would be able to if it didn't often have Toxic Spikes to set up on me with. That's why I'm thinking of running Air Balloon on Zekrom. It only gives me one shot to attempt a sweep, since Air Balloon breaks through sub but it lets me beat stall a whole lot more easily.
    [​IMG] Chansey - Pretty much the same as above.
    [​IMG] Deoxys-D - It really can't take hits from anything on the team. Dialga in particular doesn't care about Toxic and can Roar it out.
    [​IMG]Dugtrio - Can't counter it. Giratina-O is pretty much a full stop though.
    [​IMG] Espeon - Haven't seen any of these. Magic Bounce is a bitch though but I could set up on it pretty easily in theory with Arceus.
    [​IMG] Whimsicott - Grass Arceus stops it unless there are Toxic Spikes up. It's annoying but it can't really do anything but stall.
    [​IMG] Forretress - Skarmory can switch in, Taunt, and switch out to Giratina-O before it can rapid spin all my hazards away.
    [​IMG] Gastrodon - Grass Arceus is a great check to it. It has to watch for Toxic though. Again, haven't seen any of these though.
    [​IMG] Gengar - 2 Attack variants can get whirlwinded out pretty reliably in theory but 3 attacks need to revenge killed.
    [​IMG] Haxorus - Hits like a fucking tank but Skarmory can whirlwind it out thanks to Game Freak not giving it a fire move.
    [​IMG] Heatran - Kyogre checks it, despite it hating to take a Toxic, but it's resists make a little tough to work around.
    [​IMG] Heracross - Giratina-O can take both of it's STAB moves reliably and Dragon Tail it out. If I'm sure it's running Moxie, I can also Will-O-Wisp it, but obviously I'd never do this off the bat because of the threat of Guts.
    [​IMG] Jirachi - Kyogre can't take a Thunder Wave but it can wall it indefinitely and force it out easily.
    [​IMG] Kingdra - Grass Arceus can take an Outrage and Draco Meteor and Grass Knot it and Skarmory can switch in on Outrage and phaze it out, but that's about it. Kingdra is force of nature under rain.
    [​IMG] Kyurem - On paper, non of my pokemon can take it's attacks. Luckily I've never seen one, and probably won't thanks to the rarity of Hail in Ubers.
    [​IMG] Latias - Thanks to it not getting Soul Dew anymore, it's easily as hell to beat it now. Shadow Sneak takes it out pretty reliably. And Dialga can absorb a Dragon Pulse or 2 and slam it with Draco Meteor.
    [​IMG] Latios - Latios is easier to deal with since Latias is a better CMer. Grass Arceus can set up on it thanks to it's immunity to Trick.
    [​IMG] Lucario - Giratina-O can Will-o-Wisp it and effectively stop it's sweep. Crunch doesn't KO because of the Defense EVs too.
    [​IMG] Ludicolo - Dialga can fire off Draco Meteors to beat it. It has to watch out for Focus Blast though.
    [​IMG] Mew - Honestly, what can I say about this thing? I guess I can beat it but that totally depends on the set. I can check it with Giratina-O since it can just Dragon Tail BP sets all day.
    [​IMG] Metagross - Giratina-O can switch in on most of it's attacks and Will-O-Wisp it.
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn - Ferrothorn is lured in by Zekrom and then it proceeds to Hone Claw, accumulate boosts and then 2HKO it, opening up holes for the rest of the team.
    [​IMG] Hydreigon - Dialga hates Draco Meteor, but it can come in on any of it's other moves easily and OHKO it with Draco Meteor.
    [​IMG] Quagsire - Grass Arceus has to avoid a Toxic, but from there it can just Grass Knot it to oblivion through Unaware.
    [​IMG] Salamence - I need to force it to Outrage and then just switch in Skarm and Whirlwind it out.
    [​IMG] Scizor - Giratina-O can switch in on anything it has to offer, Will-O-Wisp it and Dragon Tail it back out.
    [​IMG] Chandelure - I don't play DW. But if I did, this thing would be a pain. Kyogre handles it though.
    [​IMG] Shedinja - Zekrom is a great counter to this thing, since Teravolt ignores Wonder Gaurd all together and it can use it as set up fodder.
    [​IMG] Skarmory - It runs as soon as it sees Zekrom, since it's a 2HKO
    [​IMG] Tentacruel - Tentacruel is tricky. Although it can't do anything by itself, it sets up Toxic Spikes which my entire team hates. This is another reason why I'm thinking of running Air Balloon on Zekrom. It lets me set up on it more effectively and break stall.
    [​IMG] Terrakion - Terrakion is stopped cold by Giratina-O.
    [​IMG] Tornadus - Giratina-O can come in on Grass Knot and Hammer Arm, while Skarm can come in on Hurricane or Grass Knot, and Dragon Tail/Whirlwind it out. Tailwind is a bitch though.
    [​IMG] Tyranitar - Kyogre can force it out under the threat of Surf and Grass Arceus can take a hit or 2 and Grass Knot it to death.
    [​IMG]Victini - Victini hits hard but Kyogre can remove the sun, absorb a V-Create and then Surf it to death.
    [​IMG] Wobbuffett - Fuck Wobbuffett. Seriously. The best answer to it is to hit hard and fast on the switch but other than that, what can I do?
  2. Furai

    Furai we will become who we are meant to be
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    May 4, 2010
    Hello Max, very nice team here. You got most of the threats covered which is great, and the synergy among your team members is also awesome.

    One thing that bothered me is that you use Spikes and Stealth Rock, and rely on them a lot, but you have no spin-blocker. You also are a bit Mewtwo weak, as after a Calm Mind, Kyogre will not do as much damage as it would've, and Rayquaza is very frail. I suggest replacing Rayquaza with Giratina-o.

    Giratina-o (open)
    Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 208 HP / 60 Atk / 188 Def / 52 Spd
    Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Tail
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Thunder / Will-O-Wisp

    By doing that, not only you get to keep the wonderful wall- and stall-breaking capabilities, you also provide yourself a spin-blocker so you could utilize your entry hazards much better. Lugia makes no problem at all as you have Zekrom. Draco Meteor, along with STAB and Griseous Orb still hits like a truck, and also gives you extra insurance against Groudon, in case running a more offensive set (carrying Fire Punch, thus Arceus Grass cannot switch in). Dragon Tail is an amazing phazing move that is pretty much a godsend for Giratina-o, as it makes it a wonderful stall-breaker. In conjuction with Skarmory's Spikes and Dialga's Stealth Rock, Giratina-o can pack a lot of damage on the opponent by just shuffling. Shadow Sneak is Giratina-o's priority and it 2HKOs offensive Mewtwo with an ease. The choice in the last slot is up to you; while I prefer Will-O-Wisp to cripple the likes of Extreme Killer Arceus, you can utilize Kyogre's rain to strike with a powerful Thunder.
    The EVs were made by trickroom, and here is the explanation;
    I still got a few more nitpicks for your team.
    Firstly, why did you choose Lum Berry as an item for Dialga? Darkrai lead is non-exsistent anymore due to Team Preview, and for Darkrai you got Kyogre anyway. Grass Arceus can also sponge a few hits. Either Leftovers or Life Orb make a fine choice over Lum Berry. However, if going with Leftovers, I suggest having Roar > Thunder Wave, so you could mess around with Substitute Ho-oh and Giratina-o. If you chose Life Orb, use Thunder > Thunder Wave, so you could have insurance against bulky Water-types, without needing to drop your Special Attack.

    Secondly, I don't really see what Choice Band Zekrom does over Substitute + Hone Claws Zekrom. Seeing as Ferrothorn blocks your Grass Arceus and Kyogre stay on the field, you can utilize Zekrom to lure Ferrothorn, Zekrom's "so-called" threat, and set up on it. From there you can easily wreak teams apart.

    Zekrom (open)
    Zekrom @ Leftovers
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Hone Claws
    - Bolt Strike
    - Outrage

    The reason to that change is that Sub + Hone Claws Zekrom does everything Choice Band Zekrom does, but possibly better. You gain more momentum by using Substitute, you can set up with Hone Claws, and you can still switch moves between Bolt Strike and Outrage.

    You're also wasting EVs in Kyogre's spread. 52 HP / 252 SpA / 204 Spe, with Modest nature allow you to fire off maximum power Water Spout and hit the hardest due to Kyogre's huge Special Attack. You don't need that much Speed from Timid, as Kyogre only needs to outspeed Deoxys-A, Darkrai, Mewtwo, and Shaymin-S -- which that the aforementioned spread accomplish, with extra bulk in 52 HP EVs. Hydro Pump > Surf is also something to consider, sacrificing accuracy for much more power.

    Lastly, your Skarmory is at risk from the Extreme Killer. If you switch into Arceus as it uses Swords Dance and you take Stealth Rock damage, you have about ~50% to be 2HKOed by a +2 Life Orb Brick Break. However, with a spread of 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef with Careful nature, +2 Arceus will have less than 1% to 2HKO Skarmory in the same situation.

    TL;DR (open)

    • Giratina-o > Rayquaza
    • Leftovers / Life Orb > Lum Berry on Dialga; if Leftovers: Roar > Thunder Wave, if Life Orb: Thunder > Thunder Wave
    • Substitute + Hone Claws Zekrom > Choice Band Zekrom
    • 52 HP / 252 SpA / 204 Spe with Modest nature on Kyogre, and not a must: Hydro Pump > Surf
    • 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef with Careful nature on Skarmory

    That's it, great team, good luck!
  3. Max Fightmaster

    Max Fightmaster

    Oct 8, 2008
    Trying these out right now and I'm liking the Hone Claws Zekrom, it gives me a lot more flexibility in those late game situations where I'm stuck with just one move, and Lefties with Roar seems useful but I've yet to try Roar yet, although the recovery is always welcome. The EV spreads are pretty awesome too. I'm going to try Giratina-O a bit more though, the spinblocking helps a ton but it doesn't really carry the firepower that Ray has and I really miss that.
  4. Furai

    Furai we will become who we are meant to be
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    May 4, 2010
    I have to oppose this.

    As for Grass Knot vs Judgment, let me just quote from the analysis;
    I am also not a fan of the Speed creep on Skarmory. Skarmory needs all the bulk it can have in order to tank hits such as Draco Meteor from the powerful Dragons lurking everywhere and strong physical attacks such as +2 Extreme Killer. What you can try to do is run Toxic > Taunt. This would let you cripple with an ease Rayquaza, Extreme Killer, Ho-oh, Palkia, and even the fearsome Calm Mind Ghost Arceus. By doing that however, you might give Ferrothorns a chance to set up a few layers of Spikes, which you would not like.
    I'd keep it the way it is, all you really need to Taunt is Ferrothorn and Tyranitar, which you outspeed.

    And Zekrom should NEVER give up on Outrage. That firepower is needed for Zekrom to sweep by far easier, and Zekrom's goal is to weaken the foe's team for Grass Arceus or Kyogre to sweep.
  5. Max Fightmaster

    Max Fightmaster

    Oct 8, 2008
    Yeah Grass Knot is typically a better choice than Judgement since Grass Knot usually has more immediate power. The only situation where Judgement would be more useful is with Manaphy, all other pokemon usually take more from Grass Knot or would KO anyway with the boost. Manaphy is only a problem because it can boost faster.

    I'm probably going to keep Taunt on Skarm too, it gives me a few more set up opportunities than I'd have without it.
  6. locoghoul


    Apr 29, 2008
    As you should be aware by now, your team is very weak to non-choice Palkia. Your only answer is Dialga or GrassCeus (but only in rain) who are more checks than real counters.
  7. Furai

    Furai we will become who we are meant to be
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    May 4, 2010
    Nothing really counters Lustrous Palkia or the Blissey Boxer. It's too versatile, powerful, and unpredictable. Under the rain Palkia doesn't come close to defeating Grass Arceus, Spacial Rend does just about 38%. Dialga is at more risk, but it should be able to take a Draco Meteor and OHKO back. Skarmory with Sturdy, aka at full health, can also Whirlwind it away, racking up Spikes damage on it.

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