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The Better Battlers Project (Round 3 Critiques) [READ OP]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Doughboy, Dec 10, 2012.

  1. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
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    I probably didn't give enough explanation to why I thought Gliscor was the better lead, so sorry about that. First of all, based on your opponent's most likely win paths that I described earlier (weakening checks then sweeping with Conk / Cloyster / maybe Thundurus-T late game) your opponent's most likely leads are Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Lucario, and Jellicent. Terrakion was by far the most likely because it was the only thing that carried Stealth Rock, so your opponent leading with the lead Sash Stealth Rock Terrakion set was the most likely situation. Gliscor is by far the best lead against any Terrakion, whereas Celebi could end up risking it turning out to be Banded and then if you stay in you risk it not being the lead set and taking a X-Scissor. Against Thundurus-T Gliscor still forces the Hidden Power [Ice], meaning you can switch to Bronzong first turn and maybe end up getting Stealth Rock super early. Also, the Hidden Power [Ice] you took from Thundurus-T forced you into a critical condition when you lead with Celebi, this forced you to go to Celebi and heal off the damage the first time you baited Jellicent in, rather than being able to double switch to Tyranitar and get rid of Jellicent as soon as possible. Against Lucario, you outspeed all variants with Gliscor, so it's the better lead, whereas Celebi obviously doesn't want to take an Ice Punch. Finally, there's Jellicent, against whom you just Baton Pass, then go to whatever you want, Celebi is better here obviously, but it's not too bad. Overall, I would still lead with Gliscor, in my head the Terrakion lead was just the most likely outcome, Gliscor is less important, it gains momentum with Baton Pass, and it did well vs Lucario and decent vs everything else (except Cloyster ofc), but I play differently to you and I can see why you'd lead with Celebi :)
  2. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    Hey StarmanXL let me see if I can help you out here.

    Leading off with Tornadus-T was debatable, since he could have easily sent out either Rotom-W or Thunderus-T, and it would be unknown to you at that point that they were scarfed. However, Tornadus-T most importantly keeps Rocks away from an opposing lead Ferrothorn, so it is an understandable choice.

    Anyway from Turn 1 you made a misplay. The damage Life Orb Tornadus-T inflicts on various targets, in this case Politoed, can be very telling on what set the opponent may be running. In this case, Life Orb U-turn did 15%. From this we can conclude from these calcs:

    Code:
    Choice Specs/Special Attacker
    0- Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 75-90 (19.53 - 23.43%) -- possible 5HKO
    
    [B]Defensive
    0- Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 51-61 (13.28 - 15.88%) -- 9HKO at best[/B]
    
    Choice Scarf:
    0- Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 75-90 (23.29 - 27.95%) -- possible 4HKO
    that Politoed is a defensive variant! While you normally do not think about it having a damage calculator, like honko's, is an extremely helpful tool to have during the battle. From there, you could have switched into Ferrothorn to lay your hazards up much sooner or to annoy Politoed. Even if you did not have this knowledge, switch into Jirachi was a bad play. Since Jirachi is a substitute CM variant, you need to keep it at the highest amount of health possible in order to check your opponent's Tornadus-T. In addition, taking any Rain boosted water attack or a chance of a burn would severely cripple your sweeping ability. TBH got very lucky that the opponent was running a uninvested Leftovers Surf!

    A minor mistake a Turn 9 is not foddering off Jirachi to Thunderus-T. Switching into Ferrothorn was incredibly risky since it was entirely possible that his Thunderus-T could have stayed and Thunder'ed again, then on the preceding turn Focus Blast (with Expert Belt). By losing Ferrothorn, Politoed and especially Rotom-W would become more difficult to handle for your team. On Turn 11, it is a completely understandable how strange it was for Tentacruel to have gone for Ice Beam. Normally it would attempt to Scald Ferrothorn or even Rapid Spin. You could have at least tried to use Power Whip on Ferrothorn to wear it down slightly.

    IMO this is a crucial misplay of the match on turn 16: not taking the oppurtunity to set down SR. At this point, you know your opponent will try to make the most out of Tornadus-T since 1. SR is not on the field and 2. It's best checks (Jirachi and Ferrothorn on your team) are at extremely low health. Thus, he isn't going to risk Taunting nor will he attempt to go for an attack due to Life Orb recoil. You can conclude that this is a perfect free-turn to lay down SR. After laying down SR, you should have switched to Jirachi in order to prevent a signifgant amount of Leech Seed recovery if he predicted a switch out for him setting up hazards (not likely) or into Tornadus-T to cause damage in the more likely scenario of him spiking up in a Ferrothorn vs Ferrothorn matchup. From here, you could have brought in Tornadus-T again. This time, most things on his team are at so low health from SR that they will be 2hko'ed by Hurricane! Even his Sp. Def rotom-w would fall! Not only will Tornadus-T get a kill, but it will also neuter his Tornadus-T from coming in by giving it a miniscule amount of health (17%). Instead what happens is that you bring in, Politoed, who can't do crap to Ferrothorn except Perish Song as it gains recovery with Leech Seed, you take a ton of residual damage, and it sets up a layer of Spikes.

    Turn 21 Focus Blast was completely unnecessary. Your opponent had little reason to keep Politoed in the match with so little health at that point. The overprediction cost you your Tornadus-T when the hax struck, but it was an unnecessary risk.

    After Turn 21 your chances to win are pretty slim. The opponents Tornadus-T can outspeed and KO everything with enough health to sustain his Life Orb recoil.

    Overall, not making some safer plays throughout the match costed you, such as when Tornadus-T used Focus Blast and switching in Jirachi Turn 1. In addition, not utilizing Jirachi as death fodder at various points in the match meant that you could not safely bring some Pokemon to wreck, such as against Keldeo. While it would be extremely difficult to do so, perhaps you could have played more aggressively to prevent Ferrothorn from setting up SR to neuter both Dnite and Tornadus-T.

    Come on let's get some more critiques in here!
  3. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    Ok, so don't play like an idiot like switching a Jirachi into a water move and try to play safer and use calcs to find out sets and stuff, is that the gist of it? I guess I need to figure out how other people think better, because what I see as risky apparently is safe, or...something, I don't know. I also didn't know Hurricane would 2-shot Rotom-W...

    Well, thanks for the advice. Next time I'll try to post a non-terrible battle.
  4. Enguarde

    Enguarde I only play ADV UU
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    I wrote this out a while ago but reposting since its now appropriate :]

    You played pretty well after the early misplay =] You're absolutely correct in highlighting that a switch into Amoonguss would have been the better play instead of staying in, since by looking at his team Lucario could have been very handy for picking off several of his Pokemon, most notably Weavile which was pressuring Garchomp and Lanodorus for the entire match. But lets not focus on that anymore as you said.

    Turn 6

    Show Hide
    I'm guessing you're opponent was predicting your switch into Jirachi, rather than the Giga Drain, which was a questionable move since neither Scarf Politoed nor Keldeo would have been switching in on it anytime soon. A better play would have been to either used Stun Spore to cripple the potential Weavile, Magnezone or Dragonite, or switch out into Garchomp and apply pressure with either an Earthquake or Set up the Stealth Rocks again to cripple Weavile and break Multiscale on Dragonite (You would have had a much easier time with Weavile if Rocks were up considering Jirachi always forced it out!) Should Weavile have unfortunately switched in you could have retreated to Jirachi and attempted to regain momentum again with U-turn.


    Turn 10

    Show Hide
    Instead of opting to Swords Dance with Garchomp it would have been better to set up rocks again which are crucial as I mentioned earlier, then safer to continue Earthquake spam since regardless of when you defeated the Forretress you would be forced out by Weavile afterwards.


    Turn 18

    Show Hide
    The Stun Spore was a viable prediction but the best you could have crippled would have been the Dragonite which wouldn't mind the speed drop and again there was no way Keldeo would have come in, nor Weavile as I'm sure your opponent knew how important preserving it was to your team.

    Instead the switch to Jirachi would have been safer, knowing if Politoed did stay in it was locked into Ice Beam should it wake up, and the you could U-turn or Iron Head the incoming switch or take out Politoed. (Really sucks though that he stayed in as Scarf Politoed would have been quite helpful to him in taking out your Pokemon!)


    Turn 22

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    Gee that Magnezone is a pain in the ass! Anyway, it would have been better to switch in Landorus-T rather than Garchomp into Magnezone to break the sub as it was arguably less useful, and unlikely you were going to be successful with it unless you spored the Weavile, (assuming RP set? Correct me if I'm wrong)

    And since Dragonite was on a rain team and noticing the speedy nature of his team it was most probable it was a rain abuse set which Garchomp could threaten a lot more easily than Landorus-T.


    Turn 28

    Show Hide
    Although the team was based a Landorus-T sweep, as I mentioned before Landours-T wasn't looking to be a very useful member of the team compared to Amoonguss (Which hopefully could have unfrozen given a chance against Keldeo) and Jirachi, it would have been safer to sacrifice it against Weavile or potentially predict the obvious Jirachi switch since the Weavile was most likely Choice Banded, and it was lucky that Jirachi didn't faint from the Ice Punch!


    From Turn 27 onwards the key thought process should have been keeping Jirachi's health up as it was your best chance for a win. The switch into Weavile turn 28 meant no more Stealth Rock Switch ins meaning it couldn't Ice Punch Dragonite in the final turn, and being able to survive Weavile's possible Ice Shard (which it was revealed to have) for example.

    Couldn't really give any advice on how to use Gothitelle during the battle since I didn't know its set :[ But if you tell me I'll be happy to add something should I notice it being useful for more, rather than just death fodder.

    Very lucky that the Hax God took down the Keldeo with Iron head but the Key misplays early in the match put you at a huge disadvantage early on but you did very well to open up the possibility for a comeback and hopefully my feedback was helpful to you =]
  5. Myzozoa

    Myzozoa Throw-up on the internet, or get off on TV
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    Well in general don't send in Lucario early, and don't try to be cute with regenerator pokemon. You were way too aggressive with amoongus when it was in against politoed, giga drain was a better move than stun spore, because you need to keep it at high health. The most grievous misplay was trying to use sr chomp aggressively, that chomp set is good because it forces Forry to choose between letting chomp set-up or letting you get sr up. You lost because you didn't set stealth rocks, so when it was sitting there asleep at 27%, I would spam SR while it slowly dies to rough skin because I know I can't handle weavile without SR. You should have sent landorus in on forry instead of lucario anyway to save the priority move and steel typing.
  6. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    To conclude Round 2, we have decided to name Enguarde as the winner of this round! Congratulations! He made the very good observation about setting about SR earlier in the match on turn 10 and highlighted the importance of getting an early game lead.

    Since activity is going a little slower here than originally thought, I have decided for this round we will increase the amount of battles to be critique'd to 5. With this increase, please feel free to post a battle! Also if it was not clear, you can still post a critique of a battle in its current round even though not all 5 battles are completely posted.

    It is taking to long to procure battles, 3 will remain, which means this rounds battles are all taken up.

    Let Round 3 begin!
  7. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Here's a replay for a recent team I'm messing with.

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6583157

    And the team I'm running. Yes it's odd. I like testing weird sets.
    Team Import (open)

    Keldeo-Resolute @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Taunt
    - Surf
    - Secret Sword
    - Hidden Power [Ghost]

    Haxorus @ Dragon Gem
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Swords Dance
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake

    Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Jolly Nature
    - Taunt
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roost
    - Brave Bird

    Volcarona @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 96 Spd / 252 SAtk / 160 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Fire Blast
    - Bug Buzz
    - Rest

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
    Lax Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes
    - Volt Switch

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 220 SDef / 252 HP / 36 Spd
    Gentle Nature
    - Giga Drain
    - Recover
    - U-turn
    - Thunder Wave
  8. Subject 18

    Subject 18 Peace.
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    Ok this is a battle I just had a few minutes ago. Any critiques on what I could improve?

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent6750161


    This is the team I used. It's new so I'm still trying to work out the kinks?

    Show Hide
    Debbie (Deoxys-Defense) @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Taunt
    - Night Shade

    Batista (Heatran) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature
    - Lava Plume
    - Roar
    - Toxic
    - Protect

    Dexter (Heracross) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Megahorn
    - Stone Edge
    - Sleep Talk

    Masuka (Swampert) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Punch
    - Waterfall
    - Superpower

    Lt. LaGuerta (Jirachi) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 224 Def / 252 HP / 32 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Flash Cannon
    - Calm Mind
    - Wish

    Sgt. Doakes (Landorus) (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Focus Blast
    - Rock Polish
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  9. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    I might as well post a battle.Although I won,last few turns were a little uncomfortable as my win/loss became dependent on what sets my opponent was running and what pokemon would he send out after both our pokemon fainted,or in short came to a situation like a 50-50 prediction.Critiques on my play which would help me avoid these situations would be helpful.

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent6763539

    My team:
    Show Hide
    Politoed (M) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 SAtk / 16 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Garchomp (M) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Outrage
    - Stealth Rock

    Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Surf
    - Secret Sword
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Tornadus-T (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Hurricane
    - Superpower
    - U-turn
    - Taunt

    Breloom (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Mach Punch
    - Bullet Seed
    - Spore

    Scizor (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bullet Punch
    - U-turn
    - Superpower
    - Pursuit
  10. Manitary

    Manitary

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    Just a few things I noticed

    @BlankZero
    Show Hide
    Turn 1 - I'd never stay in with Skarmory against Nidoking, if you don't invest in SpD both Flamethrower and Thunderbolt will activate Sturdy (and he carried Fire Blast), and I don't understand why your opponent switched in Espeon instead of killing you...ok maybe he wanted to bounce back one hazard and setup screen or something similar but Skarmory 2HKOs if he can't put up Reflect, and killing the Skarm is just easier.
    You have a really bad match-up against Nidoking since your team is weak to Fire moves, Volcarona can't survive 2 consecutive Fire Blast (even with a Quiver Dance between), Haxorus doesn't like taking all that damage (he takes 36.75 - 43.37%) and Nidoking outspeed him, and Keldeo fears the Thunderbolt.

    Turn 3 - Why do you choose Celebi over Keldeo? Keldeo 252+ is faster (at this point you know that Nidoking isn't scarfed) and threaten him with Surf, while Celebi is slower, take 61.13 - 72.02% from Fire Blast and only 2HKO with Psychic so Nidoking can try to kill or just switch out after the first hit. Idk why he used Ice Beam: maybe he thought you switched in Haxorus, but Fire Blast deals 36.75 - 43.37% damage and Adamant Haxorus has 2 speed point less than Timid Nidoking (and he's Timid seeing the damage of Ice Beam)

    Turn 5-6 - Again, why switch into Keldeo and mostly why stay in with Forretress if he has Fire Blast? Maybe you could U-Turn to Forretress to see if he Thunderbolt'd (trying to predict the switch to Keldeo) and then to Keldeo to take the incoming Fire Blast

    Turn 8 - From the damage it's hard to say what is the Rotom-W set, but surely it doesn't invest much in SpD (at most ~120EV with neutral nature) so he has a chance to be scarfed and Volt Switch does 67.49 - 79.87% damage which is a kill after recoil/poison. You are already in a bad position though, since Celebi would be trapped by Scizor and Haxorus doesn't like free damage+poison and the incoming Scizor forcing another switch

    Turn 8-9 - I wouldn't put Volcarona on Whimsicott exactly because he has priority Leech Seed, you could use Celebi instead since Toxic Spikes prevent paralysis and you're immune to Leech Seed so you can heal or U-Turn out preventing a switch/U-Turn to Scizor

    Turn 11-12 - Flash Fire Arcanine (I hope he hadn't Justified!) just wall you, and with the Leech Seed damage the OHKO with Flare Blizt is guaranteed while you need a +2 to have a chance to 2HKO him. If you sacrifice Volcarona (as you did) you have nothing dedicated to Scizor, and if you switch to Haxorus he gets seriously damaged by Flare Blitz+poison (not counting that scarf Rotom-W will KO after the damage)


    @BlackRussian
    Show Hide
    Turn 3-4 - I don't understand your choice: why don't you directly send out Swampert? In this way you took a free Psyshock!

    Turn 5 - Bad choice for your opponent: even without the crit your Swampert 2HKO 252/252+ Donphan and unless he runs 164 Spe EVs you're faster

    Turn 13 - You know that Alakazam is not scarfed, and it outspeed Landorus (even if he's modest) so that was a bad move. You don't know if he has a sash or not (well, from the damage dealt to Swampert he probably carries a sash and not a LO) but in any case it's broken and scarf Heracross outspeed him taking at most 28% from Focus Blast so switching him in and using CC (foreseeing a switch to Skarm, you still KO zam if he stays in) was probably the best choice.

    Turn 23 - Here you probably lost your last chance. Ok, +6 Flash Cannon deals at most 36.78% to 252/4 Bold Eviolite Chansey (it has not EV investment in SpD seeing the damage of +2 FC) but if you want to wish-pass, switch when Chansey will probably be Softboiling and not when he has no risk in Seismic Tossing! You could just reach +6 (meaning that Latias can't switch in and take at least 57% damage, and this only if she's 252/252+), try to see how your opponent use Softboiled and switch at the right moment.


    @White Symphoni
    Show Hide
    Sadly that crit didn't help in understanding what set is Mew using, probably sacrificing Scizor was the best thing to do to be sure that Tornadus would have KO'ed him.
    I'd suggest to U-Turn out against the Hydreigon and KO with Breloom but I'm probably conditioned by watching how the match was played, since he probably can KO Breloom on the switch (or maybe not thanks to the rain...I'm not experienced enough to tell you what was the less risky way to play)
  11. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa

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    I liked the idea of this thread and its been dead for a while so i thought i'd start it back up.
    Hope my advice helps...

    BlankZero
    Show Hide
    Turn 5: This is your first mistake really since you weren't aware of nidoking's set and its a pretty uncommon poke in ou. but u-turning into forretress broke your sturdy and allowed him to ko next turn with fire blast. i think u-turning into keldeo would have been the best option. He resisted all of nidoking's moves besides earth power, and threatened him out immediately with a stab water attack.

    Turn 7: Here you should have switched into celebi. celebi resists both of rotom-w's stab options and since you have u-turn you can gain back the switch initiative next turn.

    Turn 12: The match was pretty much lost at this point already but i think switching out into haxorus would have given you a chance to set up with volcarona after arcanine was gone.

    Summary: Not saving your forretress to spin away t-spikes was really detrimental because nearly everything left on your team was hurt by them. You also did not match up very well with arcanine after your keldeo fainted so you should have tried to save your keldeo to have a chance to take out arcanine.


    BlackRussian
    Show Hide
    Turn 4: Here you should have gone into jirachi immediately rather than heracross and switching into swampert. Jirachi has the best defensive matchup with alakazam and alakazam is most dangerous with a focus sash so breaking that without losing to much should have been your first priority. Also it didn't seem like there were many setup opportunities for jirachi looking at the opponents team.

    Turn 13: Here i would have sacked swampert, seeing as it already did the only job it could perform in taking out donphan. Heracross was still around as a physical attacker to take out chansey. After sacking swampert, you then had a perfect opportunity to revenge kill alakazam who is your biggest threat at this point in the match.

    Turn 23: First of all you should be running psyshock on cm jirachi as it deals physical damage allowing it to set up more easily on special walls such as chansey. However, you still could have taken out the chansey since at +6 flash cannon would have done 34% each turn and you have a 10% chance at dropping chansey's special defense every turn with flash cannon so you should have stayed in to collect your own wish. If you really wanted to switch though heracross was a better option than swampert since he could survive a seismic toss and regain hp the next turn from the wish.

    Turn 24: Should have just gone into heracross here. Poisoning chansey does nothing due to its ability natural cure which heals status such as toxic, burn, paralysis etc. upon switching out.

    Summary: Be careful when facing alakazam, break its sash with a poke you know can take an attack such as jirachi or heatran and proceed to revenge kill it. Also psyshock on jirachi would have helped this battle since you did have some set up opportunities.


    White Symphoni
    Show Hide
    I don't see any real screw ups here. That crit on politoed didn't help. The only thing i can think of is after scizor was taken out you could have brought breloom in to take out mew with mach punch. considering the life orb we can assume its only defensive investment was 4 hp ev which would give mach punch a 99% chance of taking mew out from that range. All that would do is prevent hydreigon from coming in next turn and setting up tailwind. which really didn't bother you considering you had super effective priority on his remaining team besides keldeo. I would honestly have to say you played it the best way you could have. Although it was close as far as number of team members go he had no chance of winning after you started out the match very strongly.
  12. Subject 18

    Subject 18 Peace.
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    Thanks for that. And are we allow to post more than one battle?
  13. Manitary

    Manitary

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    I think so, especially because has been forgotten for nearly a month
  14. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
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    You may post 2 battles if you wish, but not until after the next round of posting replays begins.

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