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The Dark Horses of NU

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by scorpdestroyer, Jan 4, 2013.

  1. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Hi Smogoners, this is my first RMT. I am quite a fan of anything that isn't mainstream, and this team is very much built around that. And just saying, NU has so many underrated Pokemon with so much potential.

    Currently sitting at 1701, greater heights to come.

    At a glance

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    This team's strategy is simple: Punch holes in the beginning with Muk, status as much as possible with Misdreavus and Probopass, and let the others clean up. Presenting to you...

    The Dark Horses of NU

    The Frontline

    [​IMG]

    Muk @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Sticky Hold / Stench
    EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 SDef
    IVs: 30 Spe
    Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SAtk)
    ~Substitute
    ~Ice Punch
    ~Focus Punch
    ~Shadow Sneak

    Talk about unorthodox. Muk is my usual lead, and despite his look and typing, he is actually capable of beating most leads in NU bar Garbodor and the occansional Alomomola. He is just so unpredictable, and so uncommon that many people don't know what to expect, and even this set isn't the most common Muk set. Muk's low speed is somewhat useful; it allows him to set up a substitute without the fear of it getting broken (although most of the time, the opposing leads usually set up rocks giving me a free sub). Afterwards, he is free to spam Focus Punch until his sub is broken. His decent attack set allows me to plough through teams and he is able to punch holes in the opponent's team for the rest of my team to clean up. Substitute and Focus Punch are obvious, and they give huge power and surprise value. Ice Punch is to keep Golurk, Drifblim and other Flying-types from walling me. Shadow Sneak is a useful priority move allowing me to nab the KO where the other moves didn't, and also provides a way to hit opponents before Muk goes down. The Fight + Ice combo in NU is only resisted by the rare Lampent, the rarer Frillish, and the non-existent Slowpoke and Tentacool, and even they get smacked by Shadow Sneak (except Tentacool, but who cares about him?).

    This is how Muk fairs against other common leads in NU:

    252+ Atk Muk Focus Punch vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Golem: 248-292 (70.05 - 82.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Muk Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Bastiodon: 360-424 (111.11 - 130.86%) -- guaranteed OHKO (2HKO after Sturdy)
    252+ Atk Muk Ice Punch vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 186-220 (51.23 - 60.6%) -- 90.63% chance to 2HKO

    As you can see, so long as Muk gets a sub up, most leads and subsequent switch-ins will be left in a sticky situation (see what I did there?).

    The EV spreads allow Muk to make 101 HP Substitutes which cannot be broken by Seismic Toss and Night Shade. The remaining EVs maximise attack and the rest are thrown into SDef. The 30 Speed IVs ensure that all opposing Piloswine will outspeed Muk, allowing Muk to sub up safely thanks to its great bulk.

    I'm currently testing out a tank Zweilous in place of Muk.

    The Supporters

    [​IMG]

    Misdreavus @ Eviolite
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk / 40 Spe
    Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk)
    ~Shadow Ball
    ~Will-O-Wisp
    ~Heal Bell
    ~Pain Split

    Misdreavus' role is to neuter as many threats as possible with Thunder Wave + Will-O-Wisp, while chipping away at their health with Shadow Ball. Shadow Ball is mainly to provide a form of offense, but seriously it still hits quite hard despite minimal SAtk investment. Thunder Wave is the move I use most often, since it works wonders at crippling so many of NU's top threats such as Sawk, Braviary (a common switch-in to Shadow Ball), Gorebyss, weather sweepers, etc. Will-O-Wisp is there to cripple physical attackers, especially the bulky ones, and very especially Golurk, who somehow always switches into a predicted Thunder Wave. The last move slot is reserved for Pain Split / Heal Bell. Pain Split is the move I usually use as it is my only form of recovery, but Heal Bell has been tested with decent results as well, since lots of things Toxic me as I Paralyse / Burn them.

    And seriously, Misdreavus absorbs hits so well, it sometimes surprises me.

    Thunder Wave has been replaced by Heal Bell; while I lose the ability to cripple fast sweepers, I now have a solution to opponents who try to Toxic me, or opponents with Sleep moves. The 40 speed EVs allow me to outrun all Rampardos and Torterra, burning them before they can hit me. Defense is maximised to increase Missy's tankiness, while the remaining EVs are a feeble attempt to split them into HP and SAtk. I might need help in this one, lol.

    [​IMG]

    Probopass @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Nature: Calm (+SDef, -Atk)
    ~Stealth Rock
    ~Thunder Wave
    ~Volt Switch
    ~Power Gem

    Probopass is my second supporter, and he is awesome. I mean, that hat and moustache. And his usefulness in the team. Together with Misdreavus, he helps spread paralysis and poison for the rest of the team. Thunder Wave all the fast sweepers, Toxic the bulky ones. Power Gem is to provide offense, and my word, it has surprised me numerous times by breaking the subs of the opponents. Stealth Rock is non-negotiable as it helps wear down the opponents as they switch in. The reason why I choose Probopass over other rockers? Firstly, Thunder Wave. Secondly, its stat spread. Probo's stats are well-balanced, providing mixed bulk and still decent offenses unlike Bastiodon. Probopass' typing is awesome as well. With Swellow and Braviary everywhere, a 4x resist to Normal and Flying is actually great. Due to his Steel-typing, any Natu or Musharna with Synchronize will not mean anything to him if I try to Toxic them. The synergy between Missy and Probo is great: Probo absorbs Ghost- and Dark-type attacks aimed at Missy, while Missy absorbs Fighting- and Ground-type moves often aimed at Probo. And did I mention Sturdy allows me to definitely status something dangerous as long as I have full HP?

    Toxic was changed to Volt Switch, allowing Probopass to perform a secondary role as a pivot.

    The Assassin

    [​IMG]

    Rotom-Fan @ Choice Scarf / Air Balloon
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
    ~Air Slash
    ~Thunderbolt
    ~Volt Switch
    ~Hidden Power [Water]

    Of course I am joking about Air Balloon although a triple immunity to Earthquake is always good. And though Rotom-Fan is far from uncommon, he is still an important member of the team. I am such a big fan of his abilities (see what I did there?). He just revenges everything that dares to kill someone on my team. With a Choice Scarf equipped, he is able to outspeed and KO +2 Timid Gorebyss, Scarf Sawk, and fast threats like Swellow. And with an Air Balloon equipped, he becomes more untouchable than he already is. I don't think the moves need much explanation; Thunderbolt is obligatory STAB that is a guaranteed OHKO on Gorebyss, Samurott and Swellow, OHKOs Braviary after Stealth Rock, and 2HKOs Cinccino. Air Slash KOs everything that Thunderbolt can't, 2HKO-ing Sawk and Ludicolo. Hidden Power Grass decimates Golem and Carracosta, and Trick gives me an option to cripple other Pokemon, although I only use it when I'm sure I don't need the scarf anymore. But I never trick away balloons. Balloons are awesome.

    Here's how Rotom-Fan fairs against other Pokemon:

    252 SpA Rotom-S Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cinccino: 204-240 (69.86 - 82.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Rotom-S Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gorebyss: 338-402 (134.12 - 159.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Rotom-S Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 285-337 (98.61 - 116.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Rotom-S Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Braviary: 338-402 (93.62 - 111.35%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Rotom-S Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Swellow: 464-548 (177.77 - 209.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Rotom-S Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 360-426 (108.76 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    As I usually weaken stuff first before sending in Rotom-Fan to revenge, this means I can OHKO most of the dangerous-but-frail Pokemon that threaten my team.

    I've replaced HP Grass with HP Water to take care of Camerupt, while still hitting Golem, since Thunderbolt outdamages HP Grass on Carracosta. I also replaced Trick with Volt Switch to help me grab momentum against sure-fire KOs, because Volt Switch still gets a guaranteed OHKO on Swellow and Gorebyss.

    The Cleaners

    [​IMG]

    Kadabra @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid (+Spe, -SAtk)
    ~Substitute
    ~Disable
    ~Signal Beam
    ~Psychic

    My word, this guy is a beast. I might have lots of explanation to do. Firstly, the infamous SubDisable combo. Lots of people I faced start to rage that Haunter is better for SubDisable, I shouldn't use Disable on Kadabra, etc. They aren't wrong, but they aren't right either, in a way. I use Kadabra over Haunter as a SubDisabler for several reasons:

    1) Magic Guard allows me to switch into hazards infinitely
    2) Kadabra sports better SAtk and Speed stats than Haunter. Isn't that good enough?
    3) Unpredictablility

    The strategy is simple. Switch in after another Pokemon of mine is killed, set up a sub, and Disable when the opponent attacks. This allows me to cripple choiced Pokemon further, as well as forcing out those with only one way of harming me. Psychic is obligatory STAB, and boosted by Life Orb, STAB and coming off a base 120 SAtk stat, will dent anything that doesn't resist / isn't incredibly bulky.

    As for the last moveslot, I choose Signal Beam over more conventional moves like Shadow Ball and HP Fighting. This is because I find Dark- and Psychic-types more of a trouble to my team, and while Shadow Ball hits the Psychics and HP Fighting hits the Darks, Signal Beam hits both, while having only 5 less base power than Shadow Ball. The only notable coverage I lose is against Steel-types, but how often do you see Steels in NU? The only notable Steels in NU are:

    1) Bronzor and Metang, who are hit neutrally by Signal Beam
    2) Mawile, who is 2HKO-ed by Psychic 89.06% of the time
    3) Bastiodon who would have been killed by Muk already, and even then, will get Metal Burst disabled
    4) Probopass (see above)

    So yeah. And it feels awesome to have a Skuntank switch in thinking it can Pursuit me to death, while I disable it and laugh my way out / kill it. Life Orb nabs me some KOs that I wouldn't otherwise have, but I am considering a Focus Sash and Protect ahead of sub for survivability.

    I'm currently testing out Hidden Power Ground and Encore over Substitute and Disable.


    [​IMG]

    Ursaring @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Quick Feet
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SAtk)
    ~Facade
    ~Swords Dance
    ~Close Combat
    ~Crunch

    This guy. He has on numerous occasions cleaned up and destroyed entire teams on his own. Even without a Guts or Swords Dance boost, his attack stat is already 120, which is amazing considering that most of the time I spam a 210 BP move factoring in STAB. I chose Quick Feet over Guts because it allows me to outspeed base-80s and most base 90-speed Pokemon and beat them one-on-one, even with an Adamant nature, most notably Zangoose, Gardevoir, and other Ursaring, while I OHKO them first. It has saved me so many times and nabbed so many important KOs, and essentially works as a scarf with the ability to switch moves, at the cost of some HP.

    I don't think I need to explain the set much. Facade is a powerful 210 BP move factoring STAB and will put a huge, huge dent in almost anything. Close Combat allows me to nab the Steel- and Rock-types that resist Facade, while Crunch is reserved for Ghosts since a super-effective Crunch is still outdamaged by a neutral Facade. And if the opponent is foolish enough to let me set up Swords Dance, bear-ly anything can stand up to Ursaring's power (see what I did there, again?). Ursaring's bulk is also good enough to be only 2HKO-ed by the standard Swellow, while I OHKO back.

    Rounding Up

    Thanks for taking the time to read and rate, your efforts are appreciated. Thank you again, have a nice day, and remember to never underestimate the Dark Horses of NU.

    Credits to ium, WhiteDMist and Raseri for helping me rethink my team! (more to come, perhaps?)
    Karane likes this.
  2. ium

    ium dein haar riecht gut
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    subpunch muk / misdreavus / probopass / choice scarf rotom-s / kadabra / ursaring

    there's a few problems that i see with this team. first of all, you have a hard time breaking through simple defensive cores which often require you to rely on toxic-using or offensive pokemon that are worn down easily. also, you are quite weak to water-types; almost everything on your team is OHKO'd should ludicolo or gorebyss get off a rain dance or shell smash, respectively. even though you don't let them set up so easily and you do have a revenge killer for the latter pokemon, you can't afford to mispredict against them at the same time.

    looking through the team in detail, i'm not really convinced about muk's set. it can get a substitute against stealth rock users as they set up, but a large number of them can threaten muk with earthquake or something of the sort which is just too risky. regirock doesn't really care too much by the time it starts attacking back, piloswine speed-ties with muk, golem runs a fair amount of speed, and golurk is just faster. you could run hefty speed investment to ensure that you outspeed most of them, but i suggest using a curse set which helps you deal with defensive cores more reliably. while the rest of your team has to work around something like... alomomola and audino with perfect prediction, muk just sets up on both of them and many others.

    next off, to check water-types better, i would suggest running ludicolo. it's a little tricky to decide what it should replace, but i don't feel like ursaring does too much for your team. even though it does have a neat attack without guts, it's still not powerful enough without the swords dance boost and it doesn't offer many resistances to set up easily. ludicolo, being able to tank a hit with decent hp, is a good check to other ludicolo and gorebyss. it's also very threatening after one turn of setting up rain dance, allowing it to OHKO most things. even without rain, it's nice to use considering it can threaten many stealth rock users right from turn one.

    i would also like to suggest some movesets adjustments for some of your pokemon. misdreavus really wants pain split for longevity, but it also wants some move that allows it to break though defensive threats that would otherwise be able to wear misdreavus down with status. i would use both pain split and taunt/heal bell and would remove one of your status moves (thunder wave, most likely). taunt allows misdreavus to prevent defensive pokemon from doing anything at all really, while also stopping things like musharna from setting up (considering it can do so quite easily once probopass is gone). heal bell is an option since it eases the prediction of playing around status moves. also, although this is more optional, i would consider running enough speed on misdreavus to outrun offensive torterra and rampardos (24 and 40 spe EVs respectively) instead of being outright 2HKO'd. i'm saying this is optional since both of them are rather uncommon anyway. next, probopass running double status is quite unnecessary too; i would choose one of them and replace it with volt switch to gain some mometum for your team. same goes for rotom-s; using volt switch would help it achieve the same thing while whatever hidden power grass hits can easily be disposed of by a timely switch into ludicolo. finally, kadabra can make use of encore and hidden power ground with a focus sash instead of substitute + disable. hidden power ground is absolutely helpful for hitting skuntank on the switch while encore works similarly to disable since it can punish those trying to set up or use sucker punch.

    summary:
    curse subpunch muk / 40 spe* taunt or heal bell thunder wave misdreavus / volt switch status move probopass / volt switch hidden power grass choice scarf rotom-s / focus sash, encore, hp ground life orb, substitute, disable kadabra / ludicolo ursaring
    * optional


    sets (open)
    [​IMG] Muk @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sticky Hold
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Serious Nature
    - Curse
    - Poison Jab
    - Brick Break
    - Shadow Sneak

    [​IMG] Ludicolo @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Rain Dance
    - Hydro Pump
    - Giga Drain
    - Ice Beam

    [​IMG] Misdreavus @ Eviolite
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 216 HP / 252 Def / 40 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Shadow Ball
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Pain Split
    - Taunt / Heal Bell


    i may be unclear on some things or i might have missed something in my rate considering i'm doing this way early in the morning (i am sleepy right now). if it's the former, i'm always able to explain myself better later; if it's the latter, there are other good raters who i'm sure will help out.
    ApplepieFTW likes this.
  3. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
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    Hi ium, thanks for the rate!

    I've replaced Thunder Wave with Heal Bell on my Misdreavus, and like you said, it has helped with others who try to Toxic me, and also helps my team's weakness to sleep moves (I have hard times deciding who to sleep fodder). I've changed the EV spread as well.

    For Muk, I've tried the Curse set, but it lacks the ability to hit right off the bat. Sure, the SubPunch set requires some setting up, but it takes less effort to set a sub than a few curses. The speed drop isn't that awesome either. I'm keeping the SubPunch set, but the problem of the speed tie with Piloswine made me change the EV spread to outspeed 4 Spe Piloswine by 1 point, while still retaining the ability to make 101HP Subs.

    For Probopass, I haven't used Volt Switch yet, but I can tell it's going to be used more often than Toxic, which I replaced.

    I'm still testing your Kadabra suggestion for now since it had mixed results, but I'm optimistic. I'm just not sure that Encore acts like a psuedo-Disable, since most Skuntanks just use Pursuit off the bat.

    For your Ludicolo suggestion, I find that I don't need another special attacker with Kadabra and Rotom-S. I'll be keeping Ursaring, because he has single-handedly won me games several times. If I find a slot to squeeze it in, I will. I'm getting mini-headaches trying to think of who to replace (maybe Muk, even though he's physical as well). I'll think over it for a day or two and get back to this.

    Lastly, Rotom-S. I didn't use Volt Switch at all during the time when I had it in place of Trick, but now that I think about it, it's pretty useful. I'm gonna replace Trick with Volt Switch and HP Grass with HP Water to take care of Camerupt since Thunderbolt hits Carracosta harder than HP Grass (the HP is something I'd rather not remove since it dispatches the likes of Golem easily)

    Thanks so much for the rate, it really helped me rethink my team critically!
  4. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
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    Interersting team! ium has already made most of the important suggestions for your team, but let's see what I can do.

    I don't really see why you have Muk in the lead slot. Sure, if your opponent chooses to set up Rocks, you're golden. But if they choose to attack, then you won't really have much of a chance to 2HKO before they 2HKO you (depending on the opposing lead of course). If it is a Sawk lead, you're in greater danger as well, since you have to predict around it. As for the set itself, if you don't like the Curse or Choice Band set (I'm assuming the latter one), then why are you using Muk as a SubPuncher instead of something else (Golurk is immune to Seismic Toss and has more power, Kangaskhan has similar bulk along with Scrappy)? You aren't using its STAB Gunk Shot/Poison Jab, so you don't have a move to spam when your Sub is gone. Your team isn't too afraid of Flying types from what I see, and Ghost types still take damage from Shadow Sneak, so perhaps Gunk Shot would be a nice replacement for Ice Punch (or you can go for Poison Jab for reliability). It's not like Muk will enjoy Will-O-Wisp's or Taunts from Ghosts no matter what move you utilize anyways.

    As for the Ludicolo suggestion, the point isn't to give you another Special Attacker; the main point is to ensure that powerful Water-types (and Fire-types if you set up Rain) don't completely devastate your team in the Rain. It gives your team an offensive presence similar to Ursaring to clean up late game with, without having to rely on Volt Switch to get you in safely. The boost to Rotom-S' HP Water is just the cherry on top.

    As for Kadabra, your current set deals with Skuntank about the same as the Encore Focus Sash set. With Pursuit and Poison Jab, it really doesn't matter what you Disable, since you are still getting hit with the other. The Focus Sash guarantees that you will always live a hit and will be able to strike back hard even if they have set up. HP Ground is a matter of preference, but it does hit Skuntank harder than any of your other moves on the switch-in. Encore isn't meant to completely replace Disable's role; instead, Encore is an amazing utility move to abuse with Kadabra's excellent Speed and Magic Guard.

    Changes:

    Muk: Gunk Shot/Poison Jab>Ice Punch
    Kadabra: Focus Sash + Encore>Life Orb + SubDisable
    Ludicolo>Ursaring
  5. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    Hey scorpdestroyer, this is a really cool team here. I'm always a fan of teams that try to spread status before setting up a sweep. It's always been a really good strategy in NU, and you've set yourself up quite well to do it here.


    The weakest link I see in your team is Muk. Muk doesn't help you work towards your teams goal at all, and all the common leads can be handled by other Pokemon on your team as well. So really, Muk is just kind of there, not contributing to your end game goal.

    I see that you want to use underrated Pokemon, so I believe a Tank Zweilous would work well in that spot.

    [​IMG] @ Eviolite
    Trait: Hustle
    EVs: 20 Spd / 236 HP / 252 Atk
    Adamant Nature
    - Crunch
    - Thunder Wave
    - Outrage
    - Superpower


    This set is really underrated right now. It can help you spread paralysis to help your Ursaring sweep. It can act as a check to most Water-types, but Ice Beam from Ludicolo 2HKOs. If you switch in on Rain Dance however, you can cripple it with Thunder Wave as Hustle's accuracy drop does not apply to it. Zweilous's unique typing will allow it to act as an excellent pivot and tank for you, it is also ridiculously powerful with STAB Outrage, and can probably get a KO every match for you as well.


    The second Pokemon that I think could be replaced is Kadabra. Now its not bad by any means, but it is just so frail and can't check anything for you. I think that a Life Orb Gardevoir could work quite well over it.


    [​IMG] @ Life Orb
    Trait: Trace
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Psychic
    - Focus Blast
    - Signal Beam


    Now the moveset is standard for the most part, but I think Will-O-Wisp wold be incredibly valuable for your team. This set will lure in Skuntank incredibly well, so you can often WoW right away and cripple it for the rest of the match, so you don't have to worry about it when Ursaring trys to sweep. Other than that this set is slightly stronger and way bulkier than kadabra. It also has Trace to act as a check to rain teams, as well as counter Zebstrika with Lightningrod. Trace will come in handy way more often than not.


    Other than that, I like your team and think it could work! If you need any more help feel free to VM me, or come on to IRC. #neverused is always willing to help people out. Good luck!


    tl;dr (open)

    Tank Zweilous > Muk
    LO Gardevoir > Kadabra
  6. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
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    Thanks for the rates guys! I'll address them one by one.

    @WhiteDMist Thanks, your rate has cleared up some doubts I had after reading ium's rate. I now see the need for Ludicolo, but as of now, Ursaring has helped a lot so I'm unfortunately not willing to get rid of him, even if Ludicolo is a badass counter to rain sweepers :/ Raseri has stated Gardevoir as another great check to Swift Swim Ludicolo in Gardevoir so I might try that. I also now see that Muk's doesn't differentiate itself from the rest as a SubPuncher. I've tried Poison Jab on Muk before but soon found that it got Muk walled by Golurk. I think I'll change him to Zweilous, as Raseri suggested. And as for Kadabra, I now see how useful Encore/Focus Sash can get after I slept over it (time zones are probably different, lol) so I'll definitely try it out, thanks for the explanation.

    @Raseri I have actually considered using Zweilous and Gardevoir, and now that you mention Zweilous (and now that I realise it learns TWave), I think it will definitely contribute more than Muk. I'll definitely give it a go since it performs about the same role as Muk did. But could you explain the EV spread? And as for Gardevoir, it looks quite impressive IMO, especially for Skuntank lure since Skuntank is a pain in the ass for my team. I'll try out Kadabra with Encore first, but if it doesn't meet up to expectations, I'll try Gardevoir for sure. Thanks!

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