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The Defense of the Titans Project - Mark II

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by alexwolf, Dec 4, 2012.

  1. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Pokemon Showdown! Username: StallTwo
    Hall of Fame Standing: N/A
    Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: N/A

    I'll start working on this once the next suspect test comes around.

    Edit: Changed alt
  2. YoYoNerd

    YoYoNerd

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  3. jaredz99

    jaredz99

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    I'm still waiting for my team to get confirmed, but I'm 100% certain it is actually a stall team and am bored as hell because my finals are over, so this is going up. I've qualified with the #83 spot and a Glicko2 of 1965, but am working on improving that, and I'll update this post when I get higher.

    Pokemon Showdown! Username: HailFighting
    DT team (with complete sets):
    Show Hide

    Abomasnow (M) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Snow Warning
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 Atk / 112 SAtk / 144 Spd
    Lonely Nature
    - Wood Hammer
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Overcoat
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stealth Rock
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Gyro Ball

    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Aromatherapy
    - Softboiled
    - Seismic Toss
    - Toxic

    Walrein (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Ice Body
    EVs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - Blizzard
    - Toxic

    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Roost
    - Psyshock

    Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spd
    Impish Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic
    - Roost
    - Taunt

    Screenshot of Top 100 Ladder Ranking: http://i.imgur.com/iU4kk.png (Sorry about the low quality, but I think you can see it)

    I used a hail stall team. My offensive pokemon was MixBelt Abomasnow. The primary goal of this team was to whittle down opposing pokemon with residual damage from hail and spreading toxic. The primary means of achieving this was with a Stallrein "sweep", although that was certainly not necessary.

    - What are the roles of Pokemon that were essential to your stall team's success? Rapid Spinner, Physical Wall, Hazard Setter, etc.
    Forretress was essential, primarily as a rapid spinner but also to set up hazards which took advantage of the fact that my team forces a lot of switches. In fact, I had many battles where probably over half of the turns involved switching or double switching. Abomasnow is obviously key to set up hail, and the set I was running is created to win the weather war, with Wood Hammer OHKOing most Politoed and TTar, and EQ whacking Ninetales on the switch. Blissey and Gliscor were critical as special and physical walls, respectively, and Blissey also served as a cleric. Latias patched up several weaknesses, most notably Venusaur and Keldeo, while also providing a decent win-condition scenario with Calm Mind.

    - What was the most useful Pokemon in your team and why? You can also talk about defensive cores here.
    While Forretress and Abomasnow were essential, the most useful pokemon was by far Stallrein. Walrein takes advantage of an incredibly offensive meta which provides him many opportunities to set up and "sweep".

    - What were the biggest threats to your stall team, and how you dealt with them?
    Actually, the largest threats to this team were other stall teams. Sand stall was slightly annoying but playable, the most difficult was rain stall. In particular, the core of Tentacruel/Ferrothorn/Jellicent made it difficult to set up or spin away hazards. Theoretically Abomasnow beats all three of these pokemon, as well as the implied Politoed, but the other two pokemon on the team are always Tornadus-T and Jirachi which force Abomasnow out if they can get in cleanly. Since Abomasnow can't heal he gets worn down by entry hazard damage, and Forretress has a tough time spinning with Jellicent always lurking around. While rain stall was certainly not unbeatable, it was much more unforgiving and required outstanding prediction to play around. I'd say that against good players my record against rain stall was probably between 35-65 or 40-60, so that's clearly the biggest weakness.

    - Did you find it easy or difficult to build a successful stall team? Explain why.
    I didn't find it too difficult, but that's mostly because I have a lot of experience with hail stall. I actually think that people play up the offensive nature of the metagame way too much. I mean, my 4th gen hail stall team was SubSeed Abomasnow/Blissey/Stallrein/Gliscor/Tentacruel/Heatran, so it's not like massive changes had to be made to deal with new threats.

    - How did you reach the Hall of Fame? Was it easy or difficult? Did having a stall team benefit you? What advice would you give to those laddering with stall teams?
    I reached the HoF by laddering :\ It wasn't that bad. The first 15-20 battles were particularly easy, noobs don't really know how to handle stall, so that got me up to like 1770-1800. Once I started hitting better players I obviously slowed down and had a couple of losing streaks. The most difficult hump to get over was around the 1840 mark, right under the top 100, but eventually I handled it. I think having a stall team does benefit simply because they are more rare and opposing battlers don't have as good of a feel for how to play against them. My advice for those laddering with stall would be to know your team inside and out and BE PATIENT...impatience kills with a stall team, one or two battles I lost simply because I wasn't willing to PP stall/continue my Sub-Protect cycle. It is a bit annoying that I can't queue up a battle if I have anything to do in the next 25 minutes, but there you go :)

    At some point I will make a full-fledged RMT with expanded descriptions, when I do that I'll link to it here.
  4. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    hey guys, we wanna bring up discussion for Stall as well arent we? What do you think about Healing Wish for stall teams. Im just wondering.
  5. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Rarely useful, stall doesn't like having to lose a Pokemon. You are better off with either wish or aromatherapy/Heal bell or both if you can fit it.
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    DarkBlazeR congrats for being the first to make it to the HoF this month! You have a very solid rain stall team, however there are a few changes you could make to improve it... I definitely agree with Pocket that you should remove Leech Seed on Celebi anb give it SR, freeing up a moveslot on Jirachi to use U-turn and escape from Magnezone. I also think you should remove HP Ice on Zapdos and give it Roar instead, as you lack any special wall with phaze moves so threats such as SubCM Jirachi can be very problematic for your team. Finally, change Jirachi to a physically defensive variant to better handle Terrakion and Kyurem-B, two threats that Skarmory fails to cover, as i can't find any threat that you miss on covering without SpD Jirachi.

    jaredz every time i see someone make it to HoF with a hail stall team i gotta give some real props, so good job! Stallrein seems very fun to play with, and i am happy to see that you made it work. Hazard stacking teams with a spinblocker seem like a huge problem though, as Forretress is a miserable spinner, and you don't have any trapper to deal with the Ghosts. How do you play around such teams?
  7. jaredz99

    jaredz99

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    DeoGar teams are usually incredibly easy, except the one time I saw somebody with HP Fire on their Deoxys (that went downhill quickly), because Walrein absolutely loves HO teams which provide massive opportunities to set up. Usually I send out Forry first and just spin/Gyro Ball until they get bored and switch, and then play it from there.
    Like I said in the post, the tough one is Jellicent/Ferro/Tentacruel on rain stall. Abomasnow beats all of them but can't switch in to hazards :P Usually I try to toxic jellicent and switch around between Blissey/Latias/Gliscor, none of whom mind hazards too much, although it is annoying. I do need a way to beat those teams. I think the quickest fix is Substitute>Psyshock on Latias because most of those teams can't stop +6 CM outside of Leech Seed/Toxic, but then I lose the only thing stopping CM Keldeo from destroying my team...so if anybody has any ideas, please let me know.
  8. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

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    I have a question-- what do you think of Salamence on stall teams? Dragonite seems better at first because of multiscale and twavebut mence has niches in intimidate and wish. Personally, I think gyarados and landorus-t would work well in tandem with salamence because, despite sharing little type synergy, both can take advantage of wish and having two intimidators is great(in fact I use landorus-t over gliscor on my DT team for the specific reason that it gives me a second intimidator, the other being gyarados). However, mence isn't that bulky at the end of the day, and an SR weakness is painful too. How viable do you think salamence is on stall teams?

    Also, @ The unlucky one, healing wish isn't the best idea... it's hard enough covering all relevant threats with six teamslots without sacrificing a poke to heal a teammate, especially when alot of walls have reliable recovery anyway. In addition, latias, celebi, jirachi and the blobs, the most viable healing wishers in OU already need extra moveslots and all of them have Wish/heal bell/ both anyway. Just use Wish or heal bell because if you lose a poke it will most likely open up a huge weakness to something else on your opponent's team that your healing wish passer was meant to counter. In my humble opinion, healing wish is only useful on HO teams for getting a sweeper in safely with screens/ trick room up, and doesn't work well on stall teams.
  9. czechm8

    czechm8

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  10. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    I remember seeing this team twice, hmm I recall you saying something like "Abomasnow is a boss" thinking that you had the win, and I killed your whole team with Tornadus-T Hurricane after I kill the Blissey. I think that's the weak point of your team, maybe change Bilssey for a Wish Jirachi ?
    Or changing your Forretres for a SpD Tentacruel ?
    ( I just checked, Latias takes a god damn ton from Specs Hurricane, and Superpower LO versions totally crush Blissey, ~60%, after SR it's 72 :\).
  11. Bedlington

    Bedlington

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  12. jaredz99

    jaredz99

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    That's an interesting idea Remedy...I've been trying out this set

    Show Hide
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 224 SDef / 252 HP / 32 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Wish
    - Iron Head
    - Body Slam
    - Protect


    Only thing I'm worried about is that it makes me a lot weaker to special fire types like Ninetales and Heatran...but I have Latias for that and it certainly helps against rain teams.
  13. czechm8

    czechm8

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    So I've made a rain stall team, and It's been fairly effective so far. I'm sure can be improved though. Any suggestions? If this is the wrong place for this I apologize.
    Politoed @ Lefties
    Bold 252HP 252Def 2Spe
    Perish Song
    Protect
    Toxic
    Scald
    Pretty straight forward defensive toed. I use Perish Song over IBeam to stop baton pass.

    Skarmory@Lefties
    Impish 252HP 232Def 24 Spe
    Roost
    Spikes
    Whirlwind
    Taunt
    Considering dropping taunt for Brave Bird so I won't be taunt bait myself. This team has alot of trouble with Taunt Jellicent.

    Blissey@Lefties
    Calm 4HP 252Def 252SpDef
    Wish
    Protect
    Toxic
    Seismic Toss
    Wish Passing Blissey stops most special attackers. She also helps keep my team healthy and supports my core of SkarmBliss+Tenta with her massive wishes.

    Tentacruel@Black Sludge Rain Dish
    Bold 252HP 236Def 20Spe
    Toxic Spikes
    Scald
    Protect
    Rapid Spin
    Strong Fighting moves are a danger to SkarmBliss, Tenta shuts down most fighters, and absorbs TSpikes that are a huge danger to blissey.

    Celebi@Lefties
    Calm 252HP 232SpDef 24Spe
    Giga Drain
    Stealth Rock
    Recover
    Psychic
    Specially Defensive Celebi is a useful swichin to many threats, and is a secondary fighter counter. I dropped U-Turn for psychic because this team has some trouble with toxicroak.

    Keldo @ Choice Scarf
    Timid 4 HP 252 SpAtk 252 Spe
    Hydro Pump
    Surf
    Hidden Power Ice
    Secret Sword

    My one offensive Poke. He serves as a revenge killer and late game cleaner. If I lose rain for some reason he is my only real check to mixmence. (In rain Skarm takes about 45%)
  14. tw1g007

    tw1g007

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    Rotom-W + TTar/Scizor pairing will run circles round this team. If TTar/Scizor has Pursuit then Celebi will die for free if Celebi checks Rotom-W's Volt attack. Now if Blissey checks the Volt attack and the opponent has SD Lucario, it will setup on your Blissey and sweep your entire team for free if Keldeo is dead.

    I have played with many variations of your team and I can confidently say that these are major issues you will run into.
  15. czechm8

    czechm8

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    Thanks for the feedback, I'll make some changes.
  16. DrunkDemon

    DrunkDemon

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    Yeah, a Pursuit user along with something such as Keldeo is a major headache for defensive teams like this one. You should try to fit Baton Pass on Celebi so it isn't trapped, preferably over Stealth Rock. To get SR back on the team, you could change Blissey to a set of SR / Softboiled / Toxic / Seismic Toss. Losing wish support for Politoed is unfortunate, but with the prevalence of rain over other weathers in this metagame, it isn't that big of a deal.
  17. tw1g007

    tw1g007

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    Yea previous poster said something about SR on Blissey which I would prefer you'd do even without the problem I spoke of anyway. SR on Blissey beats many spinners like Tentacruel and Starmie who will struggle to spin the SR as you put it in continuously. If they choose to status you with Toxic then simply switch to Celebi and threaten to OHKO/2HKO with Giga Drain/Psychic. To avoid being complete setup bait I would also recommend you T-wave over Toxic for Blissey. Poison is already handled by Tentacruel anyway and for pokemon not affected by toxic spikes will be t-waved. This way if Rotom-W chooses to volt-switch to Lucario/Scizor, you can t-wave as they comes in and make the switch to Tentacruel/Skarm.

    While BP isn't a bad idea for Celebi, it might not be fully necessary since you have Blissey (Celebi suffers from 4MSS). I'd recommend that if you see a Rotom-W + TTar/Scizor pairing, just check Rotom-W with Blissey consistently until you feel really low on health. The thing is with early SR placement, the Rotom-W switches will slowly kill themselves if they don't break off the momentum to either remove the SR or resort to more extreme measures of trying to kill your Blissey (which involves Rotom-W Hydro Pumps etc). When you have scouted TTars/Scizor's moves and you find they don't have pursuit (some don't which is dumb), then feel free to check with Celebi if you choose to.

    edit:

    I also forgot to mention that you are slightly Breloom weak since you opted not to use Brave Bird for Skarmory. If you spore sack a Pokemon like Politoed, Breloom will hit almost your entire team (besides Skarm) pretty hard with Bullet Seed/Focus Punch/Bullet Punch. The thing is one of your pokemon might definitely die on the switch before you revenge with Keldeo. Very good Brelooms play lots of mind games to (good Brelooms might predict the Politoed switch or simply Low Sweep and be in a win/win situation). The sub-versions will be very difficult to stop with your current setup most especially. All of this can be prevented provided Skarmory gets Brave Bird.

    Terrakion might also be a problem with Rotom-W/Scizor pairing exposing both your Blissey/Celebi as potential setup baits. It hits every one of your team very hard with Stone Edge. The thing is with T-Wave on Blissey like I recommended, that might not really be a problem as Keldeo comes in to wreck havoc or force a switch.
  18. S0L1D G0LD

    S0L1D G0LD

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    calm mind i thought makes lati count as offensive.
  19. Bedlington

    Bedlington

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    Ok, so I have an interesting thought.

    As anybody who has ever attempted to use a stall team knows, calm mind reuniclus is a huge threat, so I had a thought about a possible solution. Although gimicky and very circumstantial, what if one of your team members ran skill swap (such as Mew or Blissey). Not only would this deal with reuniclus but it would also counter poison heal gliscor. My main issue with it is that you need to sacrifice a valuable move slot for it. In the current metagame, your opponent can't really abuse skill swap much and it has other benefits such as against Conkeldunker (sorry for spelling) and trappers.

    Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions - this was just theory moning of course.
  20. Ryuuki

    Ryuuki

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    I havn't faced Reuniclus so I don't know if he's a problem, but I have one good skill swap abuser and that is my version of Princess Bri's Deoxys-D.

    Deoxys-D
    timid, leftovers, EVs: 252 hp / 252 Spd / 4 def
    Skill swap
    Recover
    Seismic Toss
    Taunt

    I have used this set with great succes on my stall team. steeling poison heal from breloom and see when it lost 91% of its hp from toxic was hillarius. =D

    Any pokemon with a better ability then pressure or any pokemon that relay on there ability will have probem with this set. It can realy mess up with most of the metagame but faster things that can just hit hard have no problem with this set.
    It´s easy to use. Taunt on the switch, use skill swap and then have fun with taunt, S-toss and recover.
    Give it a try and a lot of pokemons will hide in fear from this set once they relise what will happen when they switch in.
  21. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Getting back in the grind, :).

    Pokemon Showdown! Username: Soviet Bubblegum
    Hall of Fame Standing: --
    Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: 1800

    my current team: http://pastebin.com/PtM5sLzm

    I am actually wondering if there are any good options over Blissey, whatever it would be it would have to cover Heatran, Volc, and Venusaur, the only other pokemon I think can do that is spd Dragonite, which I may play with later.

    Also, if my team no stally enough? I have SC garchomp and several pokemon speed creeping.
  22. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

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    scarfwynaut, you have 3 fire weaknesses and only one defensive poke that resists it(garchomp is bulky but not that bulky), and since slowbro is your only resist, Nasty Plot infernape is troublesome in addition to the pokes you mentioned as nothing on your team can wall it. That said, Tentacruel could replace blissey because it is an exellent mixed sponge and walls nearly all infernape variants and volcarona(but use toxic so volc doesnt set up on tentacruel). Since tentacruel can spin, you could then replace forretress with ferrothorn because ferrothorn has better resistances. A simple way to fix your venusaur problem would be twave over body slam on jirachi. Jirachi can live an EQ or hp fire and paralyze it, and then your other pokes could kill it easily. Also, if you end up replacing forretress with ferrothorn, you should probably use a more physically defensive set with gyro ball to handle Kyurem-b. Also, why hp fire on forretress?

    Edit: I just realized that a lati twin could check venusaur, infernape, and heatran(if you use surf), though I don't know what you could replace. Scarf latios over garchomp seem like a bad idea because garchomp has a rock resist.

    Another idea is heal bell over SR on celebi, and SR on forretress (or ferrothorn if you decide to replace it) over hp fire or pain split because jirachi hates being burned by random scalds. Just a random idea I had, throwing them out there to see if they're any good.



    On a different note, I think my last post might have been swept away by all the discussion about teams and Skill swap, but I'm still curios about salamence. Is it absolute garbage and a waste of a teamslot or is it worth using?
  23. Dice

    Dice what's a god to a nonbeliever
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    You're definitely going to want entry hazards on this set to abuse the power of Skill Swap. Try out Spikes instead of Seismic Toss!
  24. Ryuuki

    Ryuuki

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    Well I already have 2 other pokemons with spikes on my team so I start with setting up hazards and then switches in.
    Seismic toss makes me able to hit back on things that don't mind staying in after skill swap and it also helps me to slowly wear down other tanks.

    Then I must say thanks for an awesome set, it's realy fun to play with =D
  25. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    If anyone was wondering, the reason I had HP fire on Forretress was Scizor. It was not the best fix though because Forretress often gets taken out and if there is only a bit or rain or magnzone support, it fails to stop scizor and I get swept. Scizor is far to common to make risks like that.

    I replaced HP fire for gyro-ball to hit Kyurem-Black and other dragons (and changed its evs accordingly). I also switched from Garchomp to Gliscor with the following moveset to counter Scizor. (full team here http://pastebin.com/9XnTn9Pe)

    Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 76 Spd / 180 Def / 252 HP
    Impish Nature
    - Protect
    - Earthquake
    - Taunt
    - Roost

    So far its working quite nicely, although losing my check will be sorely missed, but I needed a decicated Scizor counter. I may try Jellicent later as it performs a similar role, but you know, it blocks spins.

    I actually keep on losing to god dam CM-jirachi, I really want to run perish song on Celebi, but I can't seem to get another pokemon to run rocks. Jirachi needs its full moveset to work, Forretress and Gliscor are a terrible rock setters, and Blissey needs flamethrower for Venusaur. Any ideas?

    Make not though for any suggestions, I am trying to make a stall team based around Slowbro and Jirachi, so please don't suggest pokemon over them :).

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