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The Defense of the Titans Project - Mark II

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by alexwolf, Dec 4, 2012.

  1. tw1g007

    tw1g007

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Messages:
    7
    Blissey is the only one who has a lot of opportunities on your team to put down SR. You also won't be having the Venusaur problem if you have drizzle Toed. Actually, by having drizzle Toed, Forretress would then be easily replaced for Skarmory which also solves the Venusaur problem in rain. If you insisnt on not having Politoed then you have NO CHOICE but to ditch either giga drain/psychic on Celebi for Perish song.
  2. Kidogo

    Kidogo

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    462
    I'ved used celebi a lot and really found I only needed one STAB move--psychic should be sufficient. I'd run psong > giga.
  3. Bedlington

    Bedlington

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
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    111
    Pokemon Showdown! Username: Pallas
    Hall of Fame Standing: none
    Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: 1000

    I just realized that I did not enter an alt name before lol
  4. kalamadude

    kalamadude

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
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    210
    I hope it's alright for me to post here even though I'm not participating in the challenge. I've always been a stall player since I started playing Pokémon competitively a few years ago. I've got a stall team I'm working on. Well, at least I'd call it stall, but it doesn't quite meet the standards to participate in this challenge (I have a couple Pokes where I need to invest in quite a bit of speed for them to counter what I want them to).

    I'm writing for some advice from other stall players. I'm running rain stall and I've been having some success (I made a new alt and laddered it up to 1932 tonight over a couple hours). One Poke that have been having HUGE difficulties dealing with is Jirachi. All versions are a pain in the ass, but in particular a set of Substitute/Thunder/Water Pulse/Wish or Calm Mind is incredibly difficult for rain stall to handle. I was wondering if anyone had some tips for how to handle it?

    My Bronzong's Earthquake can break its subs, but it doesn't do enough damage to outpace his recovery. Jirachi just haxes it to death since it has no recovery. Politoed with Perish Song can force it out once at a huge Thunder hit, but it just comes back. I've considered running Bulldoze on Ferrothorn, but I'm not sure what to drop (Protect? But it's so useful). And I'm afraid it would just get haxed to death too.

    The Poke I've been running recently as the closest thing to a response is this Garchomp (which also serves a lot of great roles on a stall team and more people should check it out):

    Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Sleep Talk / Stealth Rock / Aqua Tail
    - Dragon Tail
    - Rest

    But the best it can handle is a stalemate, and that's only if it doesn't get bad luck with Sleep Talk/Confusion. I could also use some tips on the EVs since I'm not really sure what they accomplish now (EVs shamelessly stolen from a set Lavos posted).

    Haha, as I was typing this, I realized Gastrodon is a hard counter to the Jirachi set I most struggle with, but I'm afraid it would have too much typing overlap with Tentacruel and Politoed. But I've grown very attached to Chomp and he handles physical sets much better (shaving off 30% when it U-Turns out).

    Anyhoo, stall for life and any help would be lovely!
  5. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Joined:
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    The main ways I have dealt with CM-Jirachi:
    -perish song celebi: basically just perish song it out, sure it only works 8 times, but unless your opponent really ties to stall you out easily over 100 turns to do that, you are usually fine honestly
    -spD-Zapdos: roar it out, remember that if doesn't have wish, then it has no reliable recovery, so every bit of damage sticks. Hit it with a thunderbolt or two, heal, and roar it out, rise and repeat until its dead, its made easier is spikes are on the ground to.
    -Gastrodon and Quagsire: immune to basically everything it does (quag is immune to boosts), worse case senario: a PP stall war that you will win

    Also, if it doesn't have calm mind, then it is a joke, just PP stall it out with ferrothorn, its not getting past it with water pulse and paralysis no matter how many times it hits itself.

    Anyway, I am pretty terrible with the ladder, basically I am now stuck at 1800 after almost 100 battles, I only gain 2-5 points from a win usually. Should I just make a new alt?
  6. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2012
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    Scarfwynaut I think you missed my previous post where I made some suggestions for your team...

    Anyways, my main answers to CM jirachgi are

    1. Earthquake Gastrodon/ Quaqsire/ snorlax
    2. Perish song celebi or politoed(though politoed isn't surefire because some run electric moves)
    3. CM+Roar latias can start a setup war, then phaze jirachi out
    4. Just set up a bunch of spikes then phaze it out with something like Zapdos or heatran every time it tries to set up

    I haven't tried this out yet, but Hydreigon with Earthquake resists all of CM jirachi's common moves and can do alot of damage to it. Earthquake tangrowth seems like an OK option as well but with base 50 sdef, I don't know if it would be able to sponge even resisted hits from jirachi for long.
  7. kalamadude

    kalamadude

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
    210
    Just realized I could make a few small changes to make my team eligible. Not sure if it will be as successful, but here goes!

    Pokemon Showdown! Username: Kalamadude_1
    Hall of Fame Standing: Bronze (I think)
    Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: 1938

    Finally lost the provisional rating and got a hall-of-fame qualifier!
    http://imgur.com/CIZXW

    Kalamadude_1 is the one with the team that qualifies for this contest (though Kalamapocalypse is a VERY similar non-qualifying team haha). Will edit with comments later tonight, and I'll try to climb the ladder a bit more if I have time.

    Current team:
    Show Hide

    Politoed @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Spd
    - Toxic
    - Refresh
    - Perish Song
    - Scald

    Tentacruel @ Leftovers
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic
    - Scald
    - Protect

    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Leech Seed
    - Gyro Ball
    - Protect
    - Spikes

    Bronzong @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Toxic
    - Gyro Ball

    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
    - Calm Mind
    - Recover
    - Substitute
    - Dragon Pulse

    Garchomp (M) @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Sleep Talk
    - Dragon Tail
    - Rest



    What are the roles of Pokemon that were essential to your stall team's success?

    This is an interesting question. I've played stall for a very long time and, at least in my experience, stall in BW2 is very very different from what it has been in the past. In the past, hazards and phazing were the most important aspects of a stall team. However, with this team, I've found a very different strategy was needed. For this team, most of the damage it dealt was via status and other forms of non-hazard residual damage and outright attacking. Hazards were very useful for combating volt-turn teams or teams without a spinner, but other stall teams or teams with offensive spinners, it was pretty much impossible to get up AND keep up hazards (without a ghost-type).

    That being said, the most important roles on the team were simply sponges. There are some ridiculously powerful attackers on both sides of the spectrum in BW2 and you need something that can come in and take those hits over and over AND that can do some serious damage back. The choice of offensive member is very important as well (more on that later). Finally, an effective rapid spinner is absolutely crucial. Stall has trouble stopping hazards from being put up against it, so being able to reliably remove them is imperative.

    What was the most useful Pokemon in your team and why?

    I'd love to talk about how much fun Bronzong is in this meta (in the rain, it has no weaknesses and it fears basically nothing from a host of important threats - Tornadus-T, Latios, Lando-T, Lando-I, Mamoswine, Donphan, Hippowdon, even Heatran in the rain). I'd love to sing the praises of defensive resttalk Garchomp (he is simply hilarious and awesome - he once survived an OUTRAGE FROM AN OPPOSING GARCHOMP).

    But the hands-down MVP of the team is my offensive member, sub-CM Latias. In my opinion, this is the most dangerous special sweeper in the game and is unparalleled as a last Poke standing sweeper. Many teams, offensive and stall simply have no contingency plan for Latias. The most typical response is to status it, but at full speed, Latias outspeeds puts up a sub before any status-user can even hope to hit her. The fact that she outspeeds basically anything unboosted is a huge boon, since it allows her to always have the first say. Against a special Pokemon, Lati can CM up before she is hit. After a couple turns, even super effective ice beams and Hidden Powers will stop breaking her subs, allowing you to boost to +6 and still have a sub up after you attack.

    And again, only scarfers and priority users will be able to outspeed to even break the sub. And only once, at that, since she gets awfully close to OHKOing anything at +6 and does not take more than 50% from any priority moves anyway (except Sucker Punch - but you can just sub again).

    The only thing that can beat it once it begins setting up is something that enters a CM war with it and resists Dragon (so just Jirachi). It can be phazed out of course, but if it is the last Poke standing, it is essentially guaranteed to set up and sweep.

    Not to mention that it serves a pivotal defensive role in the team as well. It can take anything Keldeo cares to dish out. Even specs HPGhost does not deal enough to stop Latias from CM-ing up and recovering the damage away. Furthermore, if I sacrifice something to sleep - usually Garchomp since it has Sleep Talk - Latias doesn't fear too much from Breloom either. Everyone should try it. In fact, I'm thinking of building a new non-stall team focused on paving the way for this steamroller. Dayum.

    What were the biggest threats to your stall team, and how you dealt with them?

    As is typical of stall teams, there is a very short list of dangerous mons for this team to face but I go into full on panic mode the moment I see any of them on Team Preview - even more so if more than one of them shows their ugly mugs. I'll go over them one by one.

    I've come to realize that any Jirachi is basically Satan incarnate. It can't be poisoned, which is a huge pain, and even something that resists all its moves risks being worn down by sheer hax. It can come in with impunity against Ferrothorn, Bronzong, and Latias. It then proceeds to just wreck my shit, setting up Stealth Rocks, healing its team of residual damage with Wish, or (worst of all) setting up Calm Mind and beginning a hax-sweep with Thunder and Water Pulse. Garchomp is my best response to it, but I hate that little thing so much.

    Volcarona is a huge threat if it gets in before SR goes up (almost a guarantee because it can come in for free against Bronzong when he tries to put them up). When I was allowed to use Specs Toed, a Hydro Pump could take it out without much trouble, but with this full stall team, it is a huge problem. Chomp can try to phase it with Dtail if it thinks it can continue setting up for free. Cruel doesn't take too much from its attacks and can wear it down with Toxic, but if it has rest, I'm pretty screwed.

    Toxicroak is a huge threat since in the rain it can't be worn down with residual damage and it can come in for free against three of my team members. Again, Garchomp is my only choice. If it has Ice Punch, I just have to hope that I outspeed and can OHKO it first (hence why it's annoying that I was forbidden from giving Chomp speed EVs).

    Finally, Breloom is an absolute menace. Having to sacrifice something to sleep basically means that you need two dedicated counters on a stall team. The Technician set is a pain to deal with, but the Toxic Heal one is pure evil, especially with Leech Seed and Focus Punch.

    Did you find it easy or difficult to build a successful stall team?

    Building rain stall actually was not too hard, since a lot of your teammates are chosen for you - Politoed, Tentacruel, Ferrothorn. I knew I wanted to try Bronzong since he's pretty anti-meta at the moment. The last two took a while to settle in, but CM Latias proved to also be very anti-meta and very useful. Garchomp simply checked a whole lot of boxes and I had a very serious eureka moment when I decided to put him. Many don't have a very good response to a defensive Chomp and he was a great panic button against a rampaging fighting type or Scizor.

    The cool thing about stall is that most of your time is put into the team building process. Once the team is in its final form, there are very few changes to make and you simply battle your way up the ladder match after match.

    How did you reach the Hall of Fame? Was it easy or difficult? Did having a stall team benefit you? What advice would you give to those laddering with stall teams?

    It was a bit of a pain. Stall is so incredibly broken by bad hax that you have to basically get lucky. That's why if I lost a couple battles on an alt, I just restarted with a new alt. The alt that I made it with, I laddered to 1975 or so with 11 straight wins, then hovered around there until I lost my provisional rating. Rapid laddering is, in my experience, pretty much the only way I was able to pull it off. There's no doubt that you absolutely have to focus when playing stall. Every turn counts and you need to be very careful. Furthermore, you have to make some ballsy predictions from time to time. Oftentimes, the opponent will only have one reliable response to certain members of your team and you need to take advantage of that with a surprise double switch. Finally, recognize early on which members of your team are not going to be important in this match and don't be afraid to let them take abuse and sacrifice them. Getting one step ahead in the switching battle can be game-changing and totally worth a sacrifice. For example, if you know the opponent is going to Volt Switch, you may want to weather the hit with Ferrothorn only for them to put in something that threatens it and force you to switch again. A better plan might be to just leave Politoed in and let it faint so that you can get an advantageous switch in against whatever they choose to send in.
  8. Bedlington

    Bedlington

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    111
    Hi guys, I have been working on this team for a little while now but I keep on losing mostly thanks due to stall's arch nemesis: hax. I was wondering if anyone had suggestions for this team. I tried to build it around the awesome synergy between Abomasnow and Hippowdon but I don't think dual weather is meant to be Evergreen

    Show Hide
    (Abomasnow) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Substitute
    - Leech Seed
    - Blizzard
    - Wood Hammer

    Hippowdon (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Slack Off
    - Stealth Rock
    - Whirlwind

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Overcoat
    EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 1 Spd
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Volt Switch
    - Gyro Ball

    Ignorance (Blissey) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Wish
    - Softboiled
    - Flamethrower
    - Heal Bell

    Jellicent @ Leftovers
    Trait: Cursed Body
    EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Recover
    - Taunt

    Mew @ Leftovers
    Trait: Synchronize
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Skill Swap
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Softboiled
    - Psychic
  9. kalamadude

    kalamadude

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
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    Hey Bedlington. I love that Jellicent set and I've used it a lot in the past. Taunt is totally invaluable. Have you considered running Taunt on Mew as well. It seems like its best set and I'm not too sure what Skill Swap is accomplishing. Which member is your offensive one? I think it's nearly impossible to win without any offensive presence. I may just be partial to it myself, but I might suggest sub-CM Latias over Mew (check my set in the post above yours). It's a pretty epic sweeper on a stall team and can really take some hits on its own too.
  10. Bedlington

    Bedlington

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
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    Well originally, when I built the team, I had salamence over Mew carrying wish which gave Blissey the opportunity to carry toxic and heal bell but I had an unbelievable weakness to Calm Mind Reuniclus, Mamoswine, and Gliscor. As a solution I switched Salamence and Mew, giving Mew Heal Bell over taunt so that Blissey could carry wish. In order to deal with Reuniclus and Gliscor, I gave Blissey Skill Swap and took away toxic. However afterwards I realized that Blissey could not effectively use skill swap so I switched its skill swap with Mew's Heal Bell.


    Unfortunately, I cannot use Latias because it takes away the only thing that deals with Mamoswine well (abomasnow does ok but it has frail defenses).

    I think at this point I need to scrap my team and try something else - I did really enjoy having two weather inducers as it eased the pressure on both of them and I was able to fight a lot more flexibly
  11. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Another answer to SubCM Jirachi is Chansey. Although 101 Subs let it set up on her, Jirachi needs to get to +6 before it can even think about taking out the blob. (even then it's only hitting 36% max with Thunder) After a Sub and two turns of Lefties (the time it takes for Chansey to pop the Sub) Jirachi has lost 12,5% and only set up one CM. Since it has to do this 6 times, Jiraci will have lost about 75% of its HP when it finishes setting up. It will no longer be able to set up a Sub leaving it open to the 1-2 Tosses needed to finish it off. Of course hax can mess with this but Jirachi has to spend a turn of set-up to maybe paralyse with Thunder. (plus Chansey has Natural Cure) Of course, Psyshock ruins this but then Hippo, Gliscor, or even Garchomp can deal with the fairy.
  12. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Co-Lead

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    kalamadude, congrats in entering HoF (you earned Silver actually ;)), and thanks so much for your detailed Discussion Response! It is an informative read!

    I'm kind surprised with the threats you mentioned, though. You have Toxic Tentacruel and Toxic Politoed, which should stomp Volcarona, imo. Rest Talk Garchomp is a solid sleep absorber, and you have Latias to tank hits from Breloom. The former can also switch into Jirachi with impunity (you may want Leftovers, though). Toxicroak may be problematic atm, but you're perfectly allowed to invest in Speed on Garchomp without counting as an offensive mon (check the rules on the OP).

    Your team actually looks very solid to me! I initially thought that Terrakion may be problematic, but your team leaves it no room to set up SD, and CB variants will simply be Protect-scouted by Ferrothorn (I still think you should find a way to slap Power Whip, though, since it's important to dissuade Rapid Spinners like Tentacruel and Starmie).

    kalamadude, you may want to try out Wish Jirachi over Bronzong, despite your affinity for the latter. Wish support would go a long way imo in keeping this team strong, especially providing ready HP recovery to your Garchomp thanks to the pair covering each other's weakness. Jirachi is also less of a set-up bait, thanks to its para-flinch antics. It also fares better against Volcarona, too, being able to shrug its STAB moves in the rain and threaten to paralyze it. This may mean slapping Stealth Rock on Ferrothorn or Garchomp, but I believe it's much worth it (I'm thinking Iron Head - Thunder - Wish - U-turn)
  13. kalamadude

    kalamadude

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
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    Hey Pocket, thanks for the tips. You may be right about Volcarona. Maybe I'm still just having nightmares from the couple ChestoRest Volcarona I faced. As for Breloom, a couple reasons he troubled me. If he gets good rolls on Bullet Seed, he can break through anyone with Swords Dance. And if he substitutes and starts launching Focus Punches or Leech Seed, no one can do anything since I have no phasers. If I mispredict Spore as well I can be in big trouble. I hesitate to use Latias to repeatedly check something since it is my only win condition.

    I like the idea of Wish Jirachi and will definitely test it out. It's such a thorn in my side it would be nice to have my own :) I'm concerned it may make me more ground weak especially to Lando-T, Donphan, and Mamoswine as Bronzong handles them all effortlessly.

    Edit: Another thought I may test out, but SpDef Skarmory might also cover the same things as Zong while having instant recovery, a Toxicroak response, and Phazing.

    Oh and I feel silly now about the speed EVs haha. For some reason I thought the 460 EVs had to be HP/Def/SpDef. Maybe I can shoot for gold with these changes!
  14. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2012
    Messages:
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    lol yeah chesto rest volcarona is hellish

    If you use skarmory, you may want to change ferrothorn to a specially defensive variant and use physically defensive skarm because ferrothorn counters opposing water types more reliably with the extra special bulk and you would have skarmory to sponge outrages. Also spdef skarmory has trouble countering what it needs to as shown by these calcs:


    252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: (33.53 - 39.82%)
    vs.
    252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: (43.41 - 51.49%)


    252+ Atk Choice Band Haxorus Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in rain: (45.8 - 54.19%)
    vs.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Haxorus Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory in rain: (59.58 - 70.35%)

    252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 124-146 (37.12 - 43.71%)
    vs.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: (48.2 - 56.88%)

    I don't know if you forgot to mention it but skarm also helps oiut against breloom
  15. kalamadude

    kalamadude

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    May 19, 2010
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    Yeah he definitely would help with Breloom which is another reason I'm thinking about it. The reason I'm thinking SpDef is because he'd be replacing Bronzong - my default Latios and (more importantly) Tornadus-T switch in. SpDef Ferro is something to consider, but Tornadus would be terrifying then :P

    Edit: Plus Scizor is admirably covered by Cruel and Garchomp, Terra has trouble setting up and is outsped by Latias for revenging purposes, and Haxorus also struggles to set up and can be covered fairly well by Ferro and Garchomp.
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Congrats kalamadude for your sucess and i really like the use of defensive RestTalk Garchomp! Also thank you for your detailed responses!

    I also want greatly thank the awesome Pokcet for giving solid sugestions to the participants of the project and generally keeping the thread somewhat active, since my invovement in this project has been very low this month due to me not having a pc at home.
  17. Leftiez

    Leftiez *Stars*

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    User name: Leftiez
    Alt: Leftovers/Leftoverz
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  18. Meru

    Meru
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    Hall of Fame Standing: None as of now
    PS! Ladder Ranking: 1000
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Closing this for now... Anyone interested in taking over can send me a VM/PM.
  20. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Awww, darn really liked this thing although it is true that it hasn't had much activity. I got caught up with school, holidays, and Outsiders challenge. I'm not sure what went on for everybody else, seems like things have been slow in general here.
  21. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    I am still actively laddering for this, unfortunately I am not getting far.
  22. nmitchell890

    nmitchell890

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    PS! Alt: sdluke4uber
    Hall of Fame Standing: none yet
    PS! Ladder Ranking: 1000

    Jw what people think of the team I'm gonna use

  23. nmitchell890

    nmitchell890

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    After laddering for a bit I swapped Gliscor for Hippowdon and Starmie for Sandslash. Helps with taking on powerful water/fire type attacks. Especially things like V-Create from Victini (ugh so powerful)

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