1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

The Defense of the Titans Project

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by alexwolf, Nov 3, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    958
    Signing up!

    Pokemon Showdown! Username: Kiriwake
    Hall of Fame Standing: N/A
    Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: Base

    I'm using a style I call "SkarmBliss-X"; the standard SkarmBliss with Reflect Xatu thrown into the mix to prevent hazard set-up and utterly wall Ferrothorn, Skarmory, & Breloom. I have a few wild cards thrown in to prevent stat-boosting and sneakily keeping weather control in my hands.
    I used it on my main account and it worked wonderfully, so I'm hoping a can replicate the success.
  2. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold PLUTO
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    1,223
    Pokemon Showdown! Username: Dear Jhon
    Hall of Fame Standing: N/A
    Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: 1650 (only just 3 battle to test lol)

    I make a Soft Rain Stall U-turning around Gliscor SR / Celebi SpD / Jirachi with a mixed Evs Spread to take a bit better Kyu-B. I dont have many time for ladder but the team work well, is really nice to play. If i finally have time i'll keep the ladder.

    Just Spam U-turn (open)


    Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 244 HP / 192 Def / 72 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - U-turn
    - Earthquake
    - Taunt


    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Giga Drain
    - U-turn
    - Recover
    - Perish Song


    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 240 HP / 160 Def / 76 SDef / 32 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Thunder
    - Iron Head
    - Wish


    Tentacruel (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Scald
    - Protect
    - Rapid Spin


    Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Spikes
    - Whirlwind
    - Roost
    - Brave Bird


    Politoed (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Refresh
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Protect
  3. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,522
    I want to hear people's opinion on Hitmontop :

    I'm using a Stall team with a Wish support.
    I found Hitmontop really strong, his bulk, for instance Genesect can't touch him, and Dugtrio neither. In itself is already great.
    Let's say I'm talking about a Specially defensive set, with Rapid Spin/ Toxic / Hi Jump Kick / Sucker Punch.
    It threaten the spin blockers with Sucker Punch (even if yes, it's shaky,I wish it learns Payback), and kill the "pseudo spin blocker" like Ferrothorn with Hi Jump Kick. Moreover nobody expects Toxic, and overrall noone knows how to deal with this pokemon supported with wish. And you can still use Foresight, because Gengar gives a massiv headache to this set.
    Paired with a Blissey, there is not alot of things that can threaten this combo. In fact nothing if you play wells. Tornadus-T for instance can be played around by switch and lowering his atack with Intimidate so he can't kill Blissey with Superpower.
    I want to hear your thoughts on this pokemon, I'm using a Sableye/Hitmontop/Blissey core, paired with Latias and it works just great for the moment. I made many tests but currently it looks like Deoxys-D/Blissey/Sableye/Latias/Hitmontop and a random pokemon as offensive threat (testing Sharpedo).
  4. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    565
    Foresight is a better choice to get a free spin if your opponent sends out Jellicent or Gengar, Sucker punch just wont work since gengar can Sub, and jellicent can burn you with will-o-wisp, and you still have all the hazard on the field. Also you should try an another stab move, since if hjk misses you will lose half of your Hp, maybe revenge can be a nice move to use.
  5. kalamadude

    kalamadude

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
    213
    I'd recommend Close Combat over Hi Jump Kick. Almost as much power, but no risk of losing half your health if you're outpredicted or unlucky. I ran a set similar to that. He walks all over Tyranitar as well, which is fun. I think he is certainly an underused spinner. Toxic is wonderful for catching Jellicent or things that try to set up on you (Latias, Volcarona). I've also considered Rock Slide on that set but that was because I had a big Volcarona weakness. Alternatively, Rest when paired with a Blissey with Aromatherapy is almost as good as Wish if Blissey doesn't have room for Wish and Protect (a problem I always had when I tried to use her). Plus you're pseudo-status immune.

    Also I don't think Foresight is even close to worth it. Not enough people even try to spin block nowadays and you don't want to waste 1/12 of your team's moves on Rapid Spin.
  6. Kidogo

    Kidogo

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    461
    Idk, I find foresight pretty useful on stall teams, especially for beating the ever-so-common deo-d + gar teams and really just destroying any other stall team. My preferred hitmontop set is:
    Rapid Spin / HJK / Sucker Punch / Foresight or Toxic--you really only need one of the last two, as toxic takes care of stuff like jelly and most other spinblockers fairly well (with the exception of gar, but hitmontop shouldn't be fighting him anyway) I personally prefer HJK to CC, as hitmontop really is great because he actually has bulk, which you don't want to ruin with CC. 90% accuracy isn't bad, you just have to predict well. Rock slide is a cool option I guess, although toxic really does everything rock slide does--checks set-up sweepers.

    Also, new peak! http://imgur.com/qshNR
    Hopefully going for gold, but idk if I can get it--glicko2 is weird and very stagnant.
  7. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,522
    But Neliel, Jellicent will still WoW you anyway, so it just works for Gengar (with is worthy but a pursuiter would just be better).
    Foresight is meh I find..
    I mean, if you predict the Gengar switch (which is obvious) why not just use a Pursuiter.
    Let's say Wisher/HellBeller + Hitmontop + Pursuiter with BaseSpeed>110
    -Scolipede, as he can also totally counter Deoxys-D that is a pain if you don't have a fast taunter... and you wont probably have a fast taunter (bar Prankster users) given the requirements on the project.
    -Weavile, with Spinner support, this thing is just beast, it's so fast, kill genius and dragons with Ice Shard easily and got the Psychic immunity that works great with Hitmontop.
    -Aerodactyl.. I don't know, at the glance of this bird the ennemy can be confused and predict a Taunt/SR set. Instead you can got for an choice banded set and trap with Pursuit. Probably not the best to suit here. I'd more go for Scolipede or Weavile.

    I'll try a Weavile/Hitmontop/Blissey team.. with Aromatherapy since your argument makes alot of sense to me kalamadude.
    Then entry hazards are needed along with spin block.. Maybe Jellicent/Deoxys-D and Latias (because anything that switch on Weasel after he makes a kill usually wont damage Latias) or Sableye/Skarmory(or any physical wall that put SR and probably phaze) and Latias.


    *By the way for CC/HJK.. It did work perfectly for me. I don't need to worry about Ghost since I got Weavile for Gengar, and Toxic for Jellicent. As the switch most of the time is soooo obvious, it's really easy to play around. Moreover 10% miss is like ok. The defense drop is really annoying. Just yesterday when I played I met twice a sub/sailac Garchomp that subbed in front of me. I finished him with Sucker Punch, but he could aswell have just kill me if I get too many Defense drops. Same goes for Terrakion I guess, or to some extent to any pokemon that can spam Substitute like Gliscor.
    Though, I did not miss yet the HJK (I've been haxed like hell on the crit instead .o.) so maybe after some crucial misses I'll give a try to CC.

    *I just realised, Weavile is faster than Tornadus-T meaning that you don't have to gamble since your Pursuit does a solid 40% (if choice banded Weavile) to him, hmm Weavile is definitely a Pokemon that can threaten many powerhouses, and trap the spin blockers.. it's great.
  8. Howkings

    Howkings

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2012
    Messages:
    9
    Pokemon Showdown! Username: Jurpe
    Hall of Fame Standing: none yet
    Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: none yet
  9. jaredz99

    jaredz99

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2010
    Messages:
    59
    Pokemon Showdown! Username: ComeGetSome
    Hall of Fame Standing: N/A
    Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: Around 1500 after like 3 battles.

    Team will be hail stall. Current incarnation is Abomasnow/Walrein/Blissey/Forretress/Zapdos/Gliscor. Question about Gliscor - the 252HP/184Def/72Speed set is clearly defensive/wallish...does that work as a defensive pokemon?
  10. Decision Makers

    Decision Makers

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    54
    Pokemon Showdown! Username: Oppenheimer
    Hall of Fame Standing: none yet
    Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: none yet
  11. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,522
    Show Hide
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent4353216
    Weavile @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Ice Punch
    - Ice Shard
    - Low Kick
    - Pursuit

    Hitmontop (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Sucker Punch
    - Toxic
    - Rapid Spin

    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Aromatherapy
    - Softboiled
    - Seismic Toss
    - Stealth Rock

    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
    Calm Nature
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Roar
    - Dragon Pulse

    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Roost
    - Spikes
    - Whirlwind

    Sableye @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Night Shade
    - Recover
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp


    Here is a replay (a long one, what did you expect) and the export of the team I'm using.
    I need something for Tentacruel as he ruins my team so hard it's a shame. Maybe Jellicent over Sableye.. I want some help guys ! :<
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,712
    @Remedy

    I would never use HJK on Hitmontop. Losing half of your health on one of your most viable pokes is not something you want to risk. And you can't rely on the prediction argument, saying that that the Ghost switch-in is obvious so you can use Toxic or go to Weavile, because prediction goes both ways, especially when battling against good players. Use either Revenge or Close Combat.

    Also i don't see how Toxic deals with Jellicent and Sableye. They switch in and you Toxic them. Now what? You still haven't spun away hazards, and Jellicent and Sableye can keep on coming on you and Recover whenever needed. Weavile cannot switch in safely and trap either of them, as they can hit it with WoW or Scald on the switch, and Weavile hates coming in with hazards on the field. Finally opposing stall teams with a cleric will totally own you. So imo Foresight > Sucker Punch or Toxic. I would use Toxic, because it is still very useful to cripple Ghosts and everything else that might want to set up on it.

    Finally your team is weak as hell to Tornadus-T. Unfortunately switching to Hitmontop to lower its Atk so that Blissey can handle it is hardly a solution, as all it takes is one wrong prediction and your spinner is dead. Maybe put Choice Band on Weavile, so that it can always OHKO Torn-T with Pursuit after SR if it switches out? Or find some room for Jirachi / Zapdos / Bronzong. Or use Scarf Gothitelle.
  13. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,522
    Well, I still have Latias, Tornadus-T just can't touch it bar the weak U-turn..
    In fact with Tornadus I play around with my walls and when he has some damages I can kill him with Weavile. I really don't need to do much damage to him to be able to land the kill.
    Anyway, if I believe I can afford to lose Hitmontop, I let him die against Tornadus-T with a last Suck Punch, and kill it with Weavile.

    I'll give a try to revenge.
  14. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    565
    Tornadus can easily 2ko Latias with Hurricane. its not like it cant do anything to it..
  15. Crackstar

    Crackstar

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    38
    Pokemon Showdown! Username: Flagbearer
    Hall of Fame Standing: None
    Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: None
  16. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    2,983
    Starting a new account: Wynaut@choicescarf

    Edit: Up to 1641 eat it
  17. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,522
    I doubt MY Latias gets 2HKO by any special atack, you should check.
  18. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    565
    well ok i didnt noticed your spread, i thought it was max speed
    anyway, latias is not the best thing in the world to check tornadus even with that spread, since you wont do anything in return other than a weak Dragon pulse. Also it can just U-turn at the first turn so that you are in ko range for 2 hurricane.
    319 Atk (+1) VS 394 Def and 354 HP (180 Base Power): 157 - 185 (44.35% - 52.25%)
    it still does a lot of damage anyway.
  19. Bedlington

    Bedlington

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    111
    Pokemon Showdown! Username: Bassoon
    Hall of Fame Standing: None
    Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!:None

    I plan to try the always aggravating task of attempting to build hail stall
  20. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,522
    Show Hide
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T U-turn vs 252 HP/4 Def Latias: 39,56% - 46,7%
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    Since I got protect I can if I want recover 12% no matter what he does next turn.

    And I don't need to do anything to him, just to get as much recoil damage as possible on him so make Weavile's job about him easier. And we know that Weavile anyway outspeed him and kill him with either IceShard if SR were up or IcePunch.. Or Pursuit if he lost more than half of its HP.
    At worst, I sacrifice Latias and kill Tornadus back with Pursuit
    0 SpAtk Latias Dragon Pulse vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Tornadus-T (-SpDef) : 42,47% - 50,5%
    Not that "weak" if we add up together Life Orb recoil, SR damage etc. Tornadus-T wont be playing with my team so easily.

    So that's what happens (I just tried several times, so yes it's "prediction game" but it is really what happen in most cases) :
    - Tornadus-T switchs in whatever that is not a SpDef pokemon
    - I switch to Blissey as he Hurricane (don't tell me they U-Turn on Skarmory Hitmontop or Jellicent they just NEVER do that, because they believe that anyway if I switch Blissey in, they Superpower)
    - Then I switch to Hitmontop as they Superpower (I never saw a Tornadus-T that did something else on a Blissey)
    - Then I switch to Latias as he Hurricane or U-Turn (let's say they Hurricane, once again they always did that)
    *At this point, with SR, Tornadus-T lost 55% of his life so he's in the kill range of the weak Dragon Pulse.
    Then play to U-Turn as I wish, the U-Turn dealing barely 20%.
    Then I got many solutions depending on the switch they do, as my wish is up to heal one of my pokemons the next turn.
    The next time Tornadus-T is switched in, he'll have if SR are still up 53%. So I got the opportunity to sac anything and revenge kill him. I'll just switch in a pokemon that I don't need anymore and that isn't weak to U-Turn (I got plenty of choices here). If he U-Turn, I probably lost no life thanks to leftovers because Hitmontop/Skarmory/Jellicent resist to Bug atacks. If he atack and kill a pokemon, he now has 43% so Weavile kills it with Pursuit.

    And, I wont change it just because "prediction can go either way". If we assume this is the first time we meet, given what I saw during my matchs, the pattern that I described occurs at 100%.
    I base my predictions on the patterns I faced, not on every possible pattern that can be invented by the enemy.
    And, ofc, the pattern I described wont work two times, I'm aware of that. But as the game gets longer, it will be easier for me to switch my Weavile on his Tornadus-T switch in. So my strategy wont work twice, but his has a limited number of uses aswell.

    BUT, I'm considering changing Blissey to Chansey, at start, the team was a Sand Stall, but now that Sand isn't in my team, I believe Chansey could do a better job.
    She can handle Tornadus-T superpower and recover it after switch on a Hurricane; even with SR damages. So it would definitely solve the case isn't it?


    PS : I tried Revenge, it works fine, I lose a valuable power in the case they try to set-up against me but I guess it's a safer option than HJK so thank you for that. I really love the Weavile / Hitmontop / pinkblob with SR / Skarmory / Jellicent / Wish team at the moment. It's so funny to play with this seriously, there are so many options. I was bored really fast of the past Stall teams that I made, but this one is so interesting to play with !
  21. Prague Kick

    Prague Kick

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2012
    Messages:
    237
    Hi guys,
    I have read all posts on this thread and i wanna give u an advice to keep out oppo's dugtrio: Porygon2. In a sand team w/Ttar (@shedshell), useful for latwins, starmie and otha stuff, or a team w/Heatran , u can trace Arena Trap and resist to an Eq and a Reversal (u have also Recover) and trapkill Dugtrio usin Ice Beam. I'm thinkin about the same "trick" used for Gothi but Signal Beam isn't a cute move on P2, maybe Toxic + good bulkyness and Recover can kill both scarf and specs Gothi..
  22. Kidogo

    Kidogo

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    461
    I'm not sure if rankings count after the ladder restart, but my slightly tweaked rain stall team is doing very well on the ou (current) ladder.
    (I think I made gold!: http://imgur.com/FU8uY).

    I've also tried it out on the suspect ladder w/o genesect and it fares even better. IMO, whatever sect's status in terms of (non)brokenness, getting rid of it definitely helps stall (the non-RP LO set in particular was incredibly annoying to face, as I only had 1 poke to outspeed it). IK that a lot of people are using sect as their offensive mon, but what do people think about how stall would be affected by a genesect ban (if it happens)?
  23. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,203
    Okay, changing my account to Melee Mewtwo.

    Prague, Shadow Tag mons can escape from other Shadow Tag mons. The problem with Duggy isn't trapping it as much as getting it to not trap you. I agree P2 is a great wall, but I prefer Chansey due to it's wider support movepool options. It's really nice to have something that can easily set up SR against any team type.


    Edit:
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]

    I'll type up the answers to those questions later, I'm going to try to see if I can grind my way past the hax to at least Gold after I finish the suspect test.

    Here is my team:
    Show Hide
    Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Seismic Toss
    - Toxic
    - Softboiled
    - Stealth Rock

    Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Roost

    Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 44 Spd / 36 Def / 180 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Taunt

    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Gyro Ball
    - Protect
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes

    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Def
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Lava Plume
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Roar

    Gothitelle (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Psyshock
    - Thunderbolt
    - Trick
    - Hidden Power [Ice]



    Thank you so much alex for the Scarf Goth suggestion, it is AMAZING on Stall. By the way, do you guys think I should keep Scald on Jellicent or replace it with Toxic or Shadow Ball?
  24. Bedlington

    Bedlington

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    111
    How many people use the format given in the smog article "How it's made - Defense" or if not, is there any basic formula that is part of stall?
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,712
    Congrats Melee Mewtwo for your success! Please use this format in your last post:

    Pokemon Showdown! Username:
    Hall of Fame Standing:
    Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!:

    This way i can link your nick to this post and everyone can see your info in a clean way.

    And yeah i believe that Shadow Ball is way better than Scald imo. With it you can deal much better with Starmie, which could potential spinblock against you with a bit of paralyze or LO Thunders.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)