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The Defense of the Titans Project

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by alexwolf, Nov 3, 2012.

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  1. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    Deoxys-D in my experience does not in fact carry taunt, only SR, Spikes, Magic Coat, and attack, so I use my gliscor to sub up and toxic it. Wait for it to die, then toxic stall the rest of a HO team. They all need turns of setup, so toxic and then sub + protect to beat them. They never hold lum berries, only power boosting items.

    I can also use tyranitar to OHKO it after it gets a layer of SR, but I prefer gliscor as it nets major momentum for me.
  2. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    There are really only 2 options to deal with it in my experience:

    -tentacruel (in the rain) or starmie: constantly rapid spin on it and slowly kill it off with water stab attacks, both of these pokemon also stand a chance vs Gengar, which is almost always paired with it to block spins
    -brute force: running a pokemon like Scizor or Tyranitar can make it much harder for it to set up, using this king of pokemon may be hard for a stall team, so make sure they can do something else (check stuff, take out X pokemon)

    that's really it, something a taunter can be effective if it doesn't also have taunt, Salbeye can also work to a degree
  3. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    Just got into bronze rank, what do? Edit the form into OP or post separately?
  4. Mosquiton

    Mosquiton Tette

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    Actually i'm using a rain stall with Imposter Ditto. He create a psychological pressure in the opponent in order to avoid statups it, and if does it I copy and sweeep it
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    @GatoDelFuego

    Edit your first post. This is a must. But then make a new post too, in order to get some discussion going!

    @Mosquiton

    I have heard of the idea of running Ditto on a stall team again. In theory it works great, as it gives you more room for errors, as even if an offensive Pokemon manages to boost too much to be wallable, you can revenge kill it with Ditto, if it hasn't accumulated defensive boosts. Also Ditto is the ultimate scouter, and information are always useful, especially for stall teams. I haven't tried it yet, but i am very eager to.
  6. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    Show Hide
    [​IMG]


    After soaring through ranks in just under 20 matches, I feel like I still can observe much more about stall and its effects on the metagame. I know one thing for sure, though--stall may be able to succeed simply under the fact that it is the underdog. It is almost completely unplanned for, and with very, very careful prediction and management it can take most everything on. The questions will be coming in the future. I will continue to persevere, though I'm not the kind of person to crack the top 10 under any circumstances.

    If anything, however, it seems stall may be a bit more viable now than it was a month ago.

    Here is the team used:
    Show Hide
    Tyranitar (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
    - Superpower
    - Stone Edge

    Heatran (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Stealth Rock
    - Lava Plume
    - Toxic
    - Roar

    Slowbro (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Psychic
    - Slack Off
    - Toxic

    Amoonguss (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Spore
    - Clear Smog
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Giga Drain

    Gliscor (F) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Substitute
    - Toxic
    - Protect

    Forretress (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 2 Spd
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Volt Switch
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes

  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Congrats GatoDelFuego, you are our first participant to get into the HoF! Please post your team if you want to confirm your HoF status, so we can all see and discuss the first successful stall team in the project. Also answering the questions that are in the Discussion and Learning section of the project would be very helpful.
  8. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
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    Pokemon Showdown! Username: Sun Stall >
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  9. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    Honestly im not a fan of ditto in stall teams. the point is that you only have 6 slots to cover everything is this meta, and with 5 slots its even harder. Also, i dont think that ditto is that usefull to revenge kill staff, in fact a lot of statupper can laugh at it, mainly the one with Bulk up or Calm mind or with Substitute. You are also very predictable since your opponent knows your moves, so it can switch-in properly to something to wall you.
  10. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
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    gato your team is 6-0'd by sheer force lando much like my old stall team since yours is very similar. reuniclus also 6-0's you. a few options you can consider is either utilizing a band tyranitar + gyarados > slowbro or celebi > amoonguss.
  11. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    Indeed, reuniclus was a very big problem. Landorus was only seen once, and amoonguss was able to stomach a hit and reply. The problem with stall is that you have to pick and choose what you cover, and I'd rather outright lose to 2 pokes than lose out to others I could handle to being with.
  12. DrunkDemon

    DrunkDemon

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  13. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Nah, if he's careful and doesn't activate Sleep Clause when he doesn't need to, he can put Reuniclus out of commission with Spore (Reuniclus almost always runs negative Speed natures), and Earth Power only has an 11% chance to 2HKO if he's fully healthy, so he can switch in on something like Focus Blast or HP Ice (EP does more thanks to Sheer Force), avoid the 2HKO and cripple with either HP Ice or Spore.
  14. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
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    if you call amoonguss a "reliable check" to both reuniclus and landorus in a stall team, i highly recommend you play some more or go to battling 101 to learn more about the metagame. amoonguss is nailed by psychic from either on the switch and with SR + Spikes or even modest it is 2hko'd by landorus, regenerator is its only recovery and it isn't as easy to switch spam it against offensive teams as you may believe. DeoGar teams, which Landorus is often found on, keep his team from spinning so landorus sweeps him easily. celebi fixes the reuniclus issue well and doesn't open up any real holes tbh, it even fixes the weakness to opposing TR Reuniclus, CM Reuniclus, Special Lando, NP Celebi, and Alakazam. you lose a tspikes absorber.. but is that really a big deal in this meta?
  15. Alexander.

    Alexander.

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  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I am inclined to agree with Princess Bri. Celebi is overall a much better Pokemon for stall teams, but Amoonguss has the niche of Spore, Regenerator and the ability to check better or even counter some Genesect variants. Still Celebi with Perish Song would solve all of the current problems that are already addressed, but would leave you a bit weaker against Genesect. Without Amoonguss, Genesect can threaten anything else except from Heatran, which gets easily trapped by Dugtrio. That's why if you go with Celebi instead of Amoonguss, i suggest you put Shed Shell on Heatran and Rest instead of Roar / Toxic. Then use a specially defensive Celebi with Giga Drain / Recover / Perish Song / Heal Bell and you are set.
  17. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    Sheer force landorus is one of the reason why stall barely works. If you are using a stall team, Latias, Celebi, or Chansey (yes chansey, because blissey is 2koed by focus blast) are a must, nothing else can switch-in reliably on it. Amongus can only win the 1 vs 1 with hp ice, but still 2koed by Earth power. The problem is that Celebi and Latias both sucks right know cause of Genesect and Pursuitar....
  18. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    ^Ditto can take care of that problem by taking advantage of that flying typing to come in on a EP.
  19. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
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    that's a good idea too, alex! I never thought of that! Anyways, here are the changes you should try out Gato!

    • SpDef Celebi with Heal Bell instead of Amoonguss.
    • Rest on Heatran instead of Toxic.
    • U-Turn on Gliscor instead of Sub (for opposing Nasty Plot Celebi since it doesn't fit on your own Celebi)
    EDIT: Ditto is predictable as fuck and I personally hate it in stall, the opponent usually runs HP Ice on Landorus 99.9999999999% of the time so that could hit you on the switch. Ditto provides no synergy for a stall team and it makes ur team basically 5 pokes of a core instead of 6.
  20. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Actually there is another Pokemon that works well in stall teams and can counter Sheer Force Landorus: RestTalk Gyarados is a champ, and walls Landorus to hell and back. Pairs good with Celebi too, and Celebi also has Heal Bell to make Gyarados even better. In most defensive teams i make, i usually prefer RestTalk Gyarados than Slowbro, as he is much better team player. Phazing and Intimidate support are both awesome, as is Gyarados's typing. The only cons of Gyarados in comparison to Slowbro are SR weakness and the fact that it can't beat Terrakion.
  21. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    yeah, gyarados can be used, i was thinking about it as an offensive member but back to dp i remember some defensive set like Sleeptalk. Just saying, which spinner would you use with gyarados? starmie and Tentacruel here are redundant i think.
  22. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
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    yah i mentioned that as an option in my post earlier as well! i really like gyarados atm, but having two rest'ers with the changes we provided isn't really reliable, even with a cleric . with gyarados in rain i usually use donphan since donphan provides a good rock resist along with an electric immunity meaning that the opponent will thing twice before spamming choice switch. it also worked in sand with sand veil, but that's banned now.
  23. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    - What are the roles of Pokemon that were essential to your stall team's success? During the grind to the top 100, I found that hazards were the deciding factor in every singe game I played. When facing an opposing stall team, my spikes were able to wear them down very quickly when they did not carry a rapid spinner. However, when facing an offensive team, Stealth Rock alone did an insurmountable amount of damage. The constant pressure to keep switching tacked on with the mistake of giving 1 free turn of setup (leading to stealth rock) put my team in a bad position many times. For this reason, rapid spinning was incredibly useful against balanced offensive teams. Whether they were on my side of the field or the opponents, entry hazards played a big part in every match.

    - What was the most useful Pokemon in your team and why? Without a doubt, the core of Slowbro, Amoongus, and Heatran was integral in every game. My only defense against the aforementioned Stealth Rock + bulky offense teams were to keep switching with Slowbro and Amoongus until I was able to get into heatran and put rocks of my own up. Several games were dependent on pokemon that could take out this core, such as Alakazam, Tornadus-T, Reuniclus, and Genesect. Luckily, heatran covered a few of these opponents, but was unable to wall the entire metagame. A stall team must have a near perfect defensive core, and mine worked wonders. Amoongus stood out in particular, as it was not only able to regenerate lost damage most of the time, but put to sleep key hazard inducers that would stack up damage against my team in particular. Overall I feel like Gliscor pulled the least weight, unfortunately. While Gliscor's SubToxic stall set is extremely competent, I found the teams it was able to beat by itself beatable by a combination of my other pokemon. However, once it had some time to set up, it became very deadly. This occurred fewer times than I would have prefferred, unfortunately.

    - What were the biggest threats to your stall team, and how you dealt with them? There was no bigger threat to my team than Reuniclus--every stall team's nightmare. A huge reliance on passive damage through hazards on my team left Tyranitar as the only one able to hurt Reuniclus for any substantial damage, and it could not often switch in safely and could only pick off weakened varieties. Alakazam also put huge pressure on, and a trend began to emerge: any special attacker that could put a dent in Amoongus was a huge problem. Jirachi was another problem, but could usually be dealt with thanks to Heatran and Gliscor's resistances. That was, until, I faced a Jirachi in the rain. Ultimately, I found that playing 100% cautious was the only way to even have a chance against these pokemon. Had my opponent been perfect, I would never had won certain matches.

    - Did you find it easy or difficult to build a successful stall team? I've found that when making any team that emphasizes defense over offense in BW2, it is impossible to cover everything. This has always been well known--in fact, I remember a certain quote out of an old smog article about stall; below 1337 equivalent stats stall was mostly unviable, due to niche pokemon like Calm Mind Refresh Latias walking all over them. In BW2, these pokemon are no longer niche, they are 100% competitively viable. You can't chose what will beat you, but you can chose what you beat.

    - How did you reach the Hall of Fame? Was it easy or difficult? Did having a stall team benefit you? What advice would you give to those laddering with stall teams? I reached the HoF through a pure mad-grind-rush-bonus pool to the top 100 in a very small (at least I think so) number of matches. While it may have been fast, it was certainly not easy. Some matches were won "easily" due to simply having a stall team. It is quite unexpected in the current metagame, and can put several offensive teams in a bind. However, the matches where one of the pokemon that gave my team trouble turned into big panic moments, and even more so when multiples of these pokemon were involved. The advice I would give is to keep all pokemon alive at all times. On a stall team, pokemon can recover with *some* effort, and once hazards are removed, simply switching in and gaining even leftovers recover helped so much in my games. If a pokemon can be saved for death fodder, then save it. Especially with my core, three pokemon at 50% each were more useful than two pokemon at full health and one fainted. This allows you to play more flexibly, and gain those game-changing turns that defined each match. A pokemon simply existing can often beat an opponents, such as blissey vs special attackers (at least in the past...). Keeping something on the playing field allowed less "one turn mattering" or "on the edge" games.
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Forretress is the best spinner to use alongside Gyarados, mainly due to typing issues with the other two. Donphan is an option too i guess, as it has decent defensive synergy with Gyarados, but i never really liked Donphan so meh. I remember lacerta using a good stall team with Donphan + RestTalk Gyarados, and they were actually a decent combo.

    @Princess Bri

    I wasn't talking about RestTalk Gyarados in this team, just in general... I agree with you, two Rest users are usually too much.

    @GatoDelFuego

    Thx a lot for the feedback!
  25. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    What about Hitmontop? it has intimidate too, it can also switch-in easily to rock moves and to Genesect, maybe paired with Landorus-t they can check a lot of physical staff..
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