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The Double Battle Metagame (GBU)

Discussion in 'Global Battle Union' started by Ashenlock, May 14, 2011.

  1. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

    Joined:
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    Hi all.

    Now that this sub-forum has been created, I decided to start a thread collecting thoughts, strategies, ideas, and any sort of circumstance or aspect relevant to the "Double Battle" format of battling in Free or Rating mode in the "Random Matchup" Wifi category. This can include funny stories, videos of noteworthy 2v2 battles, innovative tactics you've seen employed, strategies you would like to try, advice for new players, questions from new players, observations of opponents; in short, anything relevant to the discussion of Doubles in the Global Battle Union.

    I have no idea how to play a Double Battle.

    That's perfectly fine; most people don't. It's understandable, too, since Singles is the only format most of us grew up with, and the format in which most of the main playthrough of any version takes place.

    If you want to learn tactics and ideas, this is the place. Just go ahead and ask, we will never snap at you for asking a "silly question." If you want mechanics-related info, check this link:

    Double Battle Primer D/P

    It's a little outdated, having been written for 4th Gen mechanics, but still very scholarly and entirely worth reading. Some (not all) of the noteworthy changes from Gen IV to Gen V that have really affected Double Battles:

    -The moves "Fake Out" and "Follow Me" now have the same speed priority.
    -The moves "Self-destruct" and "Explosion" no longer halve the opponents' defense when factoring in their damage.

    ^This list will be updated with changes as I am informed of them.

    What do I NOT post?

    This thread is not a discussion for the double battle situation in the Battle Subway or VGC 2011 unless the comments in question are ultimately about double battles in the GBU. For instance, these comments would be acceptable:

    "I used my Battle Subway team in the GBU today and it didn't work so well."
    "With the VGC coming up, I decided to try a team in Free Mode, and what do you know... (etc.)"

    These would not be acceptable:

    "I'm having trouble in the Battle Subway Super Doubles line, can anyone fix my team?"
    "My VGC team is doing great on PO, the basic strategy is... (etc.)"

    There are better threads for those questions.

    Rating Mode sounds fun! Where do I sign?

    First, you need to make a Pokemon Trainer Club account:

    Pokemon Trainer Club

    Follow the steps to activate the account, the information of which will then be used to sign in to this website:

    Pokemon Global Link

    Then you will be able to play on Rating mode and check your ranking on the website. The Dream World is also accessible from this site.

    My card changed color. What's up with that?

    The stripe at the top of your online (NOT ingame) trainer card, the one that bulges around your chosen avatar, changes color depending on how many wins you have accrued. Here are the specifics:

    Purple Card: 0-49 wins
    Green Card: 50-99 wins
    Bronze Card: 100-199 wins
    Silver Card: 200-499 wins
    Gold Card: 500-999 wins
    Black Card: 1000+ wins

    Cards do not transfer over to different battle formats or to the other mode. For instance, a person with 56 wins in Free Mode who starts Rating Mode one day will begin with 0 wins (and a purple card), not 56 wins.

    My opponent disconnected on me! Do I get the win?

    You get nothing. If your opponent disconnects (Or "D/Cs") on you, the game simply resumes at the "Find opponent?" screen, without giving either player a win or a loss. Don't worry; you aren't the only person aggravated about this. Many players have written to Nintendo asking various questions about this, such as "Do D/Cers get penalized somehow?" and "Will this system be fixed in these versions or in a future installment of the Pokemon series?" Currently, it seems Nintendo does have a system in place to penalize D/Cers, but the way it works apparently harms those who accidentally D/C, not the people who intentionally D/C. For more info check this thread:

    Disconnecting in Global Link matches

    Feel free to complain about D/Cers, tell a funny story about one of them, ask questions about the mechanics/consequences of disconnecting, etc. You may certainly mention in this thread how you got D/C'd against, as long as, as mentioned above, the comment is ultimately about GBU Double Battles and doesn't segue into a discussion about D/Cing. That's what this link is for.

    I still have no idea how to play Doubles.

    Some of the GBU Double Battle players have given their thoughts on the feel of the metagame. These are certainly not hard-and-fast rules/trends/tendencies of the GBU, just observations that may help you in strategizing and teambuilding:

    JRank's thoughts
    Ashenlock's thoughts

    If you want to add some stuff you've noticed too, just make a post full of them and, whenever you have more stuff to add, just edit that post. Also, if you think your post should be included on this list but isn't, just tell me.

    I don't want to hear your thoughts, I need hard facts, stat!

    You've probably noticed the myriad of Pokemon-named threads that cover the Global Battle Union board's pages. Each of those is like one of the analyses found on the main site's page (NOT on the forums), except it focuses on the GBU, and is allowed to include information on ALL five battle formats, including Single Battle Mode, Double Battle Mode, Triple Battle Mode, Rotation Battle Mode, and Wonder Launcher Battle Mode. They are contributed by users who frequent Smogon and at the moment largely cover the Double Battle metagame, since it's about the next most popular of the five after Singles, and Singles is already very comprehensively documented in the before-mentioned site analyses.

    Where I'm going with this is: The Pokemon pages on this GBU board are not hard facts. They are, however, submitted by players who have seen much action in the Random Matchup modes in whatever metagame those individuals choose to write about. If you're absolutely lost and have NO idea where to start, and the thoughts of players documented in this thread aren't helpful, read a few pages, and get a "feel" for the metagame.

    You don't need to run out into the streets naked and scream "Eureka! I will build a team with this core, that strategy, these EVs..." as soon as you look at one. You don't need to go into the GBU the first time with the best damn team ever wrought by human hands. You just need some idea to start with so that you can do well enough against your foes to see the intelligence behind the moves they make. If you're swept 4-0 by an opponent who only used Hydro Pump the whole battle, you didn't really see his thought processes, because he didn't have to exert himself at all to win.

    Reading the opponent and seeing those things is not only constructive, it is the absolute greatest fun you can have in Pokemon. Not winning, but winning because your best overcame their best, because they put forth a great effort and your own, greater effort is thus validated by a just victory.

    -------------------------------------------

    This post will be updated with common information, helpful links, and other data over time. Feel free to contribute anything you believe is relevant. Don't be shy!

    If you noticed a mistake, PLEASE tell me right away. I will never be mad, even if something I wrote that you think is wrong is actually right.
  2. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

    Joined:
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    Well I can't actually do double battles on Wi-Fi since everything and its mother hates my DSi and refuses it internet connection, but I am curious about the rules. It really sucks that legendaries such as Mew and Jirachi are banned (there goes my Transform Mew shenanigans) but overall it looks pretty fun for those of use who hate friend codes and just want a quick match.

    It seems, though, since it's 4v4 and no sleep clause, that Dark Void Smeargle and Spore/Rage Powder Amoongus are gonna run the metagame.
  3. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    I'm sorry to hear that, I was looking forward to your input.

    Surprisingly this is not the case; I see very few Smeargles at all, maybe 3 of them out of the ~550 double battles I've played. Amoonguss is often seen with Trick Room teams, but it's not too hard to shut down if you're prepared.
  4. 133k

    133k

    Joined:
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    I tried using my old Trick Room-Gravity team today, and I must say:

    Oh how times have changed.
    It used to tear up EVERYTHING (I mean it' I only lost like 3-4 matches with it) in PBR, but now... It really hasn't been doing so great. So far, the only bright spot has been Marrowak, who doesn't even NEED Gravity support. Maybe I just need to "update" it, so to speak, rather than keeping the exact same way as it was in 4th gen, but I have absolutely no idea what I would use it with.
  5. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    I know how you feel, I used a Trick Room team back in early 2008 with hard hitters like Guts Hariyama and Thick Club Marowak and it would beat even PBR teams full of ubers. Then 5th gen came, and the team did less than pitiful in the GBU.

    What are the members of your Trick Room-Gravity team?
  6. 133k

    133k

    Joined:
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    Well, I can't say exactly what the original members were because I had made at least 3 of everything I owned (different sets and whatnot), but I'll check PBR later and update this once I review what it was. Anyways, I do know that the core members were:

    Dusnoir @Leftovers
    -TR
    -Dynamic Punch
    -Shadow Punch
    -Protect

    Porygon2 @Leftovers(4th gen) or Eviolite(5th gen)
    -TR
    -Gravity/Magic Coat
    -Thunder
    -Blizzard

    Clefable @LO
    -Gravity
    -Softboiled
    -Fire Blast
    -Blizzard

    There were a few more, but I do remember that I sav'd all three of these at the same time and then just improvised the rest (I was pretty big on TR back then...) Once I check PBR I'll post the rest of what the team was. (I don't recall it being so Dark/Fighting-Weak...)
  7. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    I had a very interesting double battle; both teams were VGC compatible and my opponent used an interesting move that I hadn't considered in this format.

    92-08553-63034
  8. Virizion

    Virizion

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    That reminds me - why hasn't the Battle Video Theater thread been moved here? Only a small amount of the battles posted there are FC battles.

    Edit: 1,000.. it's so beautiful
  9. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    It's not inherently relevant to the GBU, so it can't be relegated to a place that is strictly for GBU content. Only if the Battle Video Theater were an exclusive feature of the GBU could it be moved. It *could* cause a small-scale slippery slope where people start questioning what goes where and get into all sorts of nasty technicalities. It's better to just keep things simple and clean-cut.
  10. Glen ^^

    Glen ^^

    Joined:
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    Quick Guard is awesome. Fake Out based strategies are too obvious and easy to stop with it.

    I'm using an Archeops with Protect/Quick Guard/Rock Slide/Acrobat @ Flight Jewel. Works exceptionally well.

    Actually breeding Mienshao with Inner Focus to try out both Wide and Quick Guard. It's probably better than Archeops thanks to way better ability and access to Fake Out.
  11. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    The Guards are pretty neat, though I wonder sometimes if they're worth the opportunity cost and the use of a slot. If for instance your Terrakion blocks the foe's Mienshao's Fake Out with Quick Guard, you've stopped Terrakion or your other Pokemon from flinching. But if Terrakion was the one targetted with Fake Out, all you accomplish is stopping a little bit of damage from being incurred, since Terrakion didn't attack anyway; if Terrakion's partner was targetted, then Terrakion could have just attacked for some damage and gotten as much done as the opponent, since one of the opponent's pokemon was spent using Fake Out and your partner was flinched.

    That's just a thought, though. I know a very good team or two that went far using Quick Guard, so it probably has its merits outside of the scenario I listed.
  12. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    In Doubles I'm inclined to agree with Ashenlock that the guards are hard to justify using - the wasted turn matters far more than it would in Triples where you can still have two mons attacking, easily able to grab a KO.

    They are one of those things that works exceptionally well if you can free up a moveslot and plan around them - I'd probably utilise users with them them if my team were especially vulnerable to spread or priority hits, depending on what preview shows.
  13. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    I think Wide Guard is more useful, if only because of the popularity of spread moves. I use it on my Hariyama (admittedly not a GBU team) to help against Surf-spamming rain teams.
  14. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    I agree with that Starman; left the choice, I'll take Wide Guard over Quick Guard any day. Often opponents focus a turn on a spread attack--Surf + Protect, or Water Spout + Helping Hand--so blocking both foe's concentrated effort with only one pokemon is actually very useful. Usually priority moves are not the focus of a turn, merely an assistance to setup (as in the case of Fake Out) or to finish off a weak opponent (Mach Punch, etc.). In either case I don't think you benefit much by it, since the foe can use the same attack next turn if it isn't Fake Out; it's like scouting with Protect, except without the same level of safety that Protect gives. Alternately, if it IS Fake Out that was used, well, that situation is outlined above.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    94-50102-08138

    This guy deserves a medal for originality. With 360+ wins, I knew there was something more to his team when the fight started.
  15. Expeditious

    Expeditious

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    I've found that a fair number of teams make use of first turn setup. That can be countered by using Fake Out + attacks on the would be set upers. And that in turn is countered by Quick Guard. So if you use a team like that, you should have Quick Guard. Otherwise they'll just take them out before you can get your set up going.

    It's a bit of an edge case, but I'd say Quick Guard has its uses. Much more useful in triples though.
  16. Joshiro

    Joshiro

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    Yeah I'm not really seeing the use in Quick Guard, not when your Pokes only get four slots and Protect outclasses it in most cases and isn't completely worthless later in the match. I use a Fake Out TR strat and the main reason of FO is to stop my TRer from getting double team KO'd. If one of my opponent's Pokemon uses Quick Guard then my mission is accomplished, whether FO works or not. The only time QG is truly more helpful than Protect is if you know your other Poke is going to get flinched and can do something amazing.

    As for the whole PBR vs GBU doubles meta, I think one of the main differences is the quality of opponents, especially if you're playing rank matches. Not to say that there wasn't skilled players on PBR, but the fact that the GBU actually has some rules, specifically ones that ban 12 yr old's favorite tier of Pokes, invites skilled players who know they can use their normal teams without losing due to a sheer lack in stats. It's an online Pokemon battling server you can actually take seriously.
  17. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    True, good examples, and I agree mostly agree with what you said, but I don't see what Pokemon-1 could do that would make it worth Pokemon-2's expended move and moveslot to save Pokemon-1's turn with Quick Guard. if Pokemon-1 is setting up Tailwind or Trick Room, shouldn't Pokemon-2 be doing something like Rage Powder or a faster Fake Out? Whereas Quick Guard puts you on the defensive, your own Fake Out lets you decide the turn's outcome rather than hoping the opponent does something just so your Quick Guard will be justified.

    PBR was kind of silly like that, but Trick Room was so potent that if you ran a decent TR team, you could mow over a team full of half-assed ubers. Of course, if you ran a ran a decent TR team you were probably going to lose to an uber team of the same skill level; I always had trouble with this one JP player who ran Kyogre + Ludicolo. Even though the GBU is a better system overall I still have fonder memories of PBR, partially because the stadiums and graphics were so nice, partially because I'm wearing three-year-old nostalgia glasses when I look back at it, and part because I was working for a reward that was less distant than the 1000+ win Black card. But a few years from now maybe I'll look back on the GBU with better memories; there is certainly more intelligence behind the GBU players than there was in PBR.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----------------------------And now, for something completely different----------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Why don't we post some experiences a la Jibaku's battle logs in the Singles thread?

    -A few days ago I fought a JP player with 2265 wins. That's an especially big number for the less-popular Double Battles. He used a rain team with some obvious Pokemon, like Politoed, Kingdra, and Toxicroak, as well as a Metagross I think. He wiped the floor with me.

    -A few days ago I battled a guy with an all-NFE team. It was a TR team that used a pretty cool strategy, obviously very well thought out. Having said that, I would have been embarrassed forever if I lost to him. He forfeited though as it came to a close. I posted a video of it above, but it's probably dead by now.

    -Two days ago I fought a guy with an evasion oriented team. It took 18 turns to finish, but it felt like 40. In the end, he was down to one +6 Evasion +3 Defense +3 Special Defense Muk, who ended up KOing my entire team.

    -Earlier today I fought the same guy three times in a row. He used a hybrid Hail/TR/Goodstuffs team. He had 1990 wins when we started:

    Battle 1: I KO his two leads, get a 4-2 advantage. Feel on top of the world. He sends out his last two pokemon and sets up Trick Room with no casualties, then proceeds to KO my four members without losing either of his own.
    Battle 2: Lots of switching, lots of fun. Eventually his Trick Room expires and I end up KOing his Abomasnow and Amoonguss with one Heat Wave. He D/Cs. Wish I could have saved this battle as it was very fun, but I can kind of see why he D/C'd, as I didn't play as strategically as he did (Not that that makes it okay to D/C, of course).
    Battle 3: I bring in my anti-TR Amoonguss to Sporebomb his team under Trick Room conditions. Get into a Spore-war with enemy Amoonguss. Eventually he wins with one sleeping Pokemon standing, his partner and my last Pokemon having been KO'd by Hail.

    -Just now, I fought a team with a level 50 Dusclops and five level 1 Pokemon. Whimsicott, Mudkip, Hippopotas... I can't remember them all, but I assume they all knew Endeavor. This was a fun match, involved hitting Eviolite Dusclops five times with Scarf Terra's Rock Slide in a row, and his tiny little Mudkip using Wide Guard while Dusclops used Destiny Bond, and I used Heat Wave + Rock Slide (The tremendous irony of this made me actually laugh out loud). I would have saved this but he forfeited about halfway through and it didn't seem worth the effort of putting it online.
  18. JRank

    JRank
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    I'm 22-13, with a 1608 rating. I've been playing since the GBU started, and my ranking on the GBU still hasn't showed I have even one battle! Today I:

    -beat 2 Japanese players, one who had 2 stars and another who had 3
    -had to forfeit against someone who looked really good because I had to leave my house
    -got d/c'd on 5 minutes ago
    -go d/c'd on twice before that
    -lost to a SandRoom team after Whimsicott avoided every move I threw at it

    My thoughts:
    Garchomp and Mence are quite popular, most Mence are either Special-based or mixed, as nearly all use Draco Meteor right off the bat
    Most Americans d/c if I get a big lead (4-2 or 4-1) on them, but if a Japanese player is going to lose they often just forfeit, which I really respect them for

    I'll update more as I keep playing.
  19. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    I wish I had started a more comprehensive log earlier. Some time ago I thought it would be neat to record all the pokemon from the pre-battle screen of my more experienced-looking opponents, but I never did. Perhaps I'll remember some observations in time. I'll add to this list:

    -4x Ice-weak Dragon-types are everywhere. I'll often see Dragonite, Salamence, and Garchomp all on one team. I did much better in Free Mode once I started carrying HP Ice.

    -Dark Void Smeargle is surprisingly uncommon, for reasons of which I am not aware. The only thing I can think is that it seems too obvious a Sleeper to be viable (It would get killed immediately at first sight because it's the only Pokemon that can use Dark Void in the GBU), or that as it only has a 64% chance of putting both foes to sleep--and since Protect is so common--it seems like the odds of it seeing its full potential are slim.

    -Zoroark is not very effective. You only have two reserve pokemon to disguise it as, and those reserves might not even be helpful for the battle if you chose them only to disguise Zoroark as one of them. It's easily found out if it's posing as a Fighting-type, since it uses completely different moves than they do. Not to mention that as Fake Out is very common, it will often be "found out" immediately, and if it's wearing a sash (Which it likely will be, giving its poor defenses), it's then open for the kill.

    -Protect is the melange of double battles in the GBU; it is the differentiating spice that separates the casual players from the ones who built their team with Doubles in mind. It at once serves as the entire defensive side of double battles. Without a doubt, it is THE Double Battle move. It stalls, it scouts, it shuts down foes who target your own Pokemon predictably. I'd like to say "Well, you don't HAVE to have Protect to have a good team" to moderate my message, but I can't think of any good reason not to have it on several members of your team.

    -Switching is also one of those defining things of a very good player, but to a much lesser extent. Protecting when you're uncertain has few consequences unless your opponent is about to set up Tailwind/Trick Room/etc. (Stat-upping in competitive GBU is very rare, so I don't include that) However, switching can be very dangerous and should only be done when you've read your opponent successfully. I lose often to people who have figured out I'm Choice'd onto a move or that one of my Pokemon is useless in the current matchup, and just team up on the Pokemon who is staying in.

    -Gastrodon is an unexpected and very effective anti-rain Pokemon that I've seen on many teams, though all of them were Japanese. Storm Drain gives it an immunity that would normally be neutrally effective, making the Water + Electric type combination completely stopped by him. He also has a pretty respectable movepool in Muddy Water, Ice Beam, and Earth Power. I was originally surprised by the inclusion of him in 500+ win teams, but now whenever I see him I know I'm about to have a difficult battle, not necessarily because of his presence but because his existence in the foe team means my opponent probably knows what he's doing. Novice players don't generally pick slow, ugly Pokemon.

    -When playing a weather team of the same weather type as your own team, don't bring your weather-maker. Let the foe do that. If he thinks the same as you, you'll both be on a level playing field, as neither of you brought your weather-maker. If he does bring his weather-maker, you'll still both be on a level playing field, since you will both be boosted by his rain/sun/whatever. This is useful for teams that have relatively weak weather-setters, like Ninetales and Politoed.

    ^Some of these are not absolute. For instance, while I've never seen Zoroark used effectively in a GBU double battle, that doesn't mean it is useless. These are not laws, just observations.
  20. EvilMario

    EvilMario

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    I'm definitely looking forward to Intimidate Scrafty whenever it becomes available. It'll be a great addition to Doubles Trick Room.
  21. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    I can imagine. Hitmontop doesn't have incredible stats but its access to Fake Out and Intimidate make it top-tier in doubles. I'm especially looking forward to Shadow Tag Chandelure, who can trap Trick Room setup keep the trapped Pokemon from switching to another TRer.
  22. wDro

    wDro

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    I am also looking forward to seeing the Sky Drop glitch gets fixed. I think this move has very good potential. If I understand how it works correctly, it can stop your opponent's setup for one turn. Usually this one turn is very crucial to trick room teams and stuff.
  23. Tenodera

    Tenodera

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    WHY DO I FAIL SO HARD.

    Anyway, saw somebody who led with a Jolteon and Electivire. The Jolteon used Discharge and scored some paralysis hax along with boosting Electivire's speed. Not bad, and now I'm paranoid about bringing a Ground-type with me at all times.

    Also, nobody expects Flame Orb Psycho Shift Cresselia! It's fun.
  24. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    Yeah, I used to use a Psycho Shift Cresselia on PO, didn't have as much success though.

    88-74443-16316

    Pretty strategic battle except for the very last move, can't say any more about or I'll spoil it.
  25. adman2

    adman2

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    Chandelure period is bad news for Trick Room, since most of them get destroyed by Shadow Ball (and Bronzong gets killed by Fire Blast). I tried using a hastily put together doubles team for kicks on GBU, and while I had very few battles, it was easy to see that Chandelure is a major threat to Trick Room teams. I guess that's why Porygon-2 should be used as a TR lead, because of Ghost immunity and a possible Trace of Flash Fire.

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