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The Dual Weather Returns

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by shiranai, Oct 13, 2012.

  1. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    I have spent a long time away from the game, and I just returned few days ago . I'm not aware of how the new metagame is, but I still have some of my skills with the game. Since I hadn't any team build I took an old one, and bingo! It seems this team still is good.
    If someone is interested, here is the old one: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3466026


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Team
    building

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    Hail will be the best weather for stall for a long time. And there is nobody better than Abomasnow to set the snow.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Since this is a double weather, Hippowdon is my second pick as a weather setupper. For a stall team, Hippo is, by far, the best option.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Like any stall teams, this team makes a lot of switches, so I need a spinner. Cloyster was my pick.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Cofagrigus is my spinblocker, otherwise my hazards wolud be blown away quite easily.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    This team have bad times agaisnt fire mons. Heatran is one of the best fire counters, so it fits here.
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    The last spot was reserved for my swepper cleaner. Stronger scarfers could give me a lot of trouble, so a Sash Alakazam could be both fast enough to clean most of normal mons, revenge kill scarfers and avoid residual damages.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] => [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    After A l e x a n d e r feedback pointing the rain weakness, I made changes in the team:
    Alakazam=>Genesect: Genesect doesn't have a type coverage as Alakazam does, but can hit even harder thanks to Download.
    Cloyster=>Rotom-W: Indeed, the rain was a problem, and Jelicent wasn't able to hit water mons hard enough.
    Cofagrigus=>Sableye: Sableye don't take hits as well as Cofagrigus, but Prankster helps when I need to get rid of some threats.
    [​IMG] => [​IMG]
    Sableye wasn't doing so well as I thought against what it should counter, like most fighting pokes especially Terrakion. And one of the few pokes around that can "safely" change to a Terra is Gliscor.


    The
    Team

    [​IMG]
    Abomasnow (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Ice Shard
    - Leech Seed
    - Protect
    - Wood Hammer
    Almost a SubSeed build, except for Protect in place of Substitute. Like I explained in my old team, Abomasnow lacks speed to successfuly run Subs, and he needs to stall. Wood Hammer can even get rid of Blissey with some help of other residual damages (gives around 35-40% of damage), and Ice Shard can revenge kill monst dragons, the only exception, I think, is Dragonite (depending, even without Multiscale on). People loves to put Tyranitar, Genesect or Scizor in front of him, and now his teammates can take a lot of hits than before, making him quite more durable, disrupting the weather.

    [​IMG]
    Hippowdon (F) @ Leftovers

    Trait: Sand Stream

    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)

    - Stealth Rock
    - Slack Off
    - Earthquake
    - Roar
    Hippowdon used to be a physical tank, but now she have a full investment in SDef, so Hippo can take down, or at least take more than a single hit, from most weather inducers. Actually, this way Hippo can even survive a +1 Ice Beam from Genesect, being able to setup SR early. Also, with a full invest in SDef Hippo can check some frails special attackers like Alakazam and Espeon, and even Heatran. Unfortunatelly Hippo can't phaze some physical sweeper that got a +2 anymore, but still can take hits of both kinds quite well.

    [​IMG]
    Rotom (Rotom-W) @ Leftovers

    Trait: Levitate

    EVs: 112 HP / 252 SAtk / 144 SDef
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Thunderbolt
    - Pain Split
    - Will-O-Wisp
    With the team changes a spinner didn't seemed so needed. The washing machine is amazing in the rain, and still good outside of it. The speed invest didn't seemed needed, since most things that I wish Rotom outspeeded it can't accomplish without a Scarf; and in a team with both sand and hail, no Leftovers is would lower the time Rotom would last in the field. Thunderbolt is here in place of Volt Switch only because the first hits a lot harder than the least. Will-o-Wisp will be present in this team because, except for Hippowdon, there isn't a physical wall.


    [​IMG]
    Gliscor (F) @ Toxic Orb

    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Protect
    - Toxic
    Gliscor is one of the few pokes that can take more than two hits of a Terrakion, and Terrakion is a huge threat for this team. Basicaly Gliscor has two roles in the team, depending of the opposing team: if there is a Terrakion, this pseudo bug must stay alive as long as Terra is, otherwise it will simply Toxic any bulky poke, specially Rotom-W. Thanks to Posion Heal, Gliscor doesn't care about the bad weather, since sand can't hurt it, and the heal of its ability is bigger than the damage of hail. Even though without Ice Fang Gliscor is unable to hit flying pokes, Protect gives me another check, especially useful since Terrakion is a huge threat here.

    [​IMG]
    Heatran (M) @ Shed Shell

    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Lava Plume
    - Roar
    The change in the moveset really gave me a better time against dragons. Rest+Sleep Talk also makes Heatran last a lo more, even with hail, making able to phaze more setuppers than before. As I said, burn seems like a needed status here, and Lava Plume is also here because of this. The only problem here is because this Heatran will always lose a battle against an offensive Heatran, and this is where Rotom-W enters.


    [​IMG]
    Genesect @ Choice Scarf

    Trait: Download

    EVs: 92 Atk / 252 SAtk / 164 Spd
    Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - U-turn
    - Flamethrower
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam
    This guy is quite popular in the metagame for a reson: he is awesome. Download makes this upgraded bug a threat both physically and specially, and matched with Scarf it can only be outrun by another Scarfer. His main weakness can be easily countered by other members of the team, and his moves helps me to cover many holes of the other guys. Genesect must be the last man to go down, otherwise my team would lose his main offensive point, leaving me only with Hippowdon and the residual damages to finish the game. I tried to run both Alakazam and Gensect, but with both I was lacking someone to take some hits in place of them both; unfortunately Genesect was doing better, so Alakazam had to go.


    I'm still lacking a Spiker here, but unfortunately I couldn't fit one. And since most of the times I could play around against opposing spinners, I decided to not run a spinblocker.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
  2. Alexander.

    Alexander. Banned deucer.

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,835
    Hello there, I think this is a nice team! I found a weakness to sun teams in general and to Genesect + Dugtrio combination. I'd use Special Defensive Sleep Talk Heatran in place of your current Heatran with Shed Shell to avoid being trapped by Dugtrio and to have a good recovery move with the old but gold combination Rest + Sleep Talk.
    Also, Rain teams can be problematic for your team, in fact, you single water resist is Abomasnow, but it can't take too much damage because it's your main weather setter. So, I'd put Jellicent in place of your Cloyster, it gives you a good check for rain teams and a great counter for Keldeo, another problem for your current team. Finally, I suggest you to put a revengekiller here, like Choice Scarf Genesect in place of your Cofagrigus because it gives strength to the team with his speed and coverage moves.

    Sets:

    Show Hide

    Jellicent:
    [​IMG]
    Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 240 HP / 36 Def / 176 SDef / 56 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Shadow Ball
    - Taunt
    - Recover

    Heatran:
    [​IMG]
    Heatran (M) @ Shed Shell
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Lava Plume
    - Roar
    - Sleep Talk

    Genesect:
    [​IMG]
    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 92 Atk / 252 SAtk / 164 Spd
    Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - U-turn
    - Flamethrower
    - Ice Beam
    - Bug Buzz


    Hope it helped, good luck!

    ~Alexander
  3. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    Indeed, some problems you pointed really showed up to me, especialy the problems with rain. I still didn't faced the Dugtrio-Genesect duo, but Genesect only was giving me some troubles by itself.
    I'll try these changes,but with Genesect, I get the feeling that Alakazam will not be so useful anymore, I'll see later.
    but, thanks, I really appreciated the feedback.
  4. bubbly

    bubbly

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2009
    Messages:
    883
    Those updates have helped a heck of a lot, the team looks fairly solid now :) The remaining problem is that Sableye doesn't cover a lot of Fighting types, like you rely on him to, so you're massively weak to the likes of Breloom (Toxic Orb especially, but Sableye can't switch in at all to Technician versions), Keldeo, and even Terrakion if you mispredict.

    There are two more issues; one is the lack of a Spinner combined with Abomasnow, meaning Toxic Spikes and hazards in general will absolutely eat you. Also, you seem to lack a solid offensive strategy of your own. The team's defensive AND has Genesect so the obvious route is to run some Spikes of your own.

    One option is Forretress > Gene, but I don't like Forry in the current meta because he loses to nearly all the major SR setters except Terrakion. Also, Genesect is just so broken that you might as well abuse it while you can :) So, I'd suggest running Spikes Roserade > Abomasnow. You could go with Amoonguss as well, who's more solid and has Regenerator, but Roserade gets Spikes and Natural Cure Rest so on balance I think it's superior for your team. Roserade also handles Keldeo, Breloom, and Thundurus nicely, all of which are currently problems.

    Just a nitpick, run a more specially defensive spread on Hippowdon, it helps a lot winning weather wars and is generally better than the physically defensive version. The main reason you need it here though is to give you another check to Heatran, since Rotom can be easily stalled out with status given enough time, or even beaten 1v1 by Sunny Day variants.

    Hope that helps, good luck :)
  5. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    Indeed, Sableye isn't the perfect poke to cover my fighting issues, but paired with Cofagrigus he was the best one. I'm trying to figure out a better check for fighting right now, maybe a Skarmory, giving me access to Spikes, but I don't think this will do quite well.

    About Abomasnow: without him, the main goal of the team, that is running two weathers so I can both disrupt the climate and give residual damage, would be gone, and this Abo set is the best I found till now for this kind of team.

    Lastly, about Hippowdon: you sir have my thanks. specially defensive Hippo is giving me a lot of advantages, since I was having huge problems against opposing Heatran, that really helped a lot.
  6. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,301
    You're really CM Keldeo weak, as it can rip this entire team apart easily. Nothing likes its ability to go both Surf and Secret Sword, and you're Genesect can't even touch it since it doesn't even run TBolt. Rotom-W dies to +1 Secret Sword after SR damage, and Keldeo outspeeds and gets access to Substiute (which acts a lot like SubDD Gyara in this scenerio). This is normally where I would suggest something like Lati@s or Starmie in place of Abamasnow, which would make this team a lot better, but it would ruin the theme sadly. GL in your battles.

    If you want to address the issue, you could at least try Thunderbolt over Bug Buzz on Gene, which although shaky if it has CM boost already, still does decent damage and makes it less of an issue
  7. Harlot

    Harlot

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2011
    Messages:
    446
    hey man, cool team. dual weather is a really neat idea and it's nice to see someone pull it off well.

    so the biggest threats to your team i can see right now is sun teams that are paired with dugtrio and u-turners and specs / offensive cm keldeo.

    dugtrio sun teams can really do a number on this team, especially when they follow the skeleton of ninetales / dugtrio / chlorophyll sweeper / genesect. as you can see, your only safe switch in to genesect is heatran, but if genesect u-turns as heatran comes in, heatran gets trapped and the chlorophyll sweeper wins. beating these kinds of teams is relatively simple, all you need to do is use shed shell over leftovers on heatran. with shed shell, heatran can freely switch in to u-turns without worrying about getting trapped by dugtrio.

    as for beating keldeo, there isn't much i can recommend without either changing the team from what it was originally intended to be or making you weaker to something else. even if it does change your original idea, i think you should give amoonguss a shot over abomasnow. amoonguss provides you with an amazing check to almost every keldeo set while still beating [pretty much] everything that abomasnow is beating now.

    amoonguss set (open)
    [​IMG]
    Amoonguss (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 28 SAtk / 228 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Spore
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Stun Spore / Clear Smog


    that's pretty much all i got. gl with the team.
  8. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    sorry guys, I couldn't answer before the feedback. I really thank both of you.
    Indeed, Keldeo now is the biggest problem here thanks to Gliscor being able to check Terrakion, and I still couldn't figure out a way to counter it without making this team a simple sandstorm yet, but I'm really planning in morphing this team in a sandstorm later, so these feedback are also welcome.

    a few changes in the movesets are made, and if this is a necrobump, sorry to the mods here.
  9. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I could hear the sirens sound
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,006
    Hi,

    Interesting team! A weakness of fighting types able to hit Gliscor is pretty prominent; as hitting Gliscor means hitting Hippowdon as well. The list is boiled down to mainly Keldeo and Breloom, both who can do a lot of damage to your team. Breloom can outspeed Rotom-W's WoW, put it to sleep, and then SD as you snooze or switch out, and then proceed to sweep you. Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump OHKO's Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Genesect; while Secret Sword nabs Abomasnow and 2HKO's Rotom-W.

    As Rotom-W is obviously your main answer to both of the above threats, I would definitely suggest that you change it's spread to better handle both of them. A spread of 204 HP / 252 SpA / 52 Spe Timid is the best way, in my opinion. It allows you to outspeed Adamant Breloom and hit it with a WoW- crippling it and making it much easier to handle. You could boost the speed more to outspeed even JollyLoom, but Gliscor has enough bulk to be able to handle JollyLoom as long as it has moderately full health. The investment in HP also softens Keldeo's attacks as well.

    I'm sorry if this isn't an in depth enough rate; I'm a bit short on time. I hope I helped!
  10. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    hum, I can try this. Some Breelom can give me hard times if I misspredict a Spore, since I always put Heatran in front of it to Sleep Talk while they try to setup. Even with my Keldeo issue not resolved, at least there is one less fighting issue around this team. even short, this was quite helpful, thanks.
  11. Eranu

    Eranu

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2011
    Messages:
    382
    Hey,

    Nice team. Dual weather is rarely seen in the current meta.
    First of, Deoxys-D offense looks like a problem to your team. A solution could be changing your Gliscor's nature to Jolly and changing its EV spread to 252 HP/ 42 Def / 126 Speed, as well as replacing Swords Dance with Taunt. This ev spread allows to outspeed positive natured base 90s allowing you to Taunt Deoxys-D before it can set up hazards. This also allows you to outspeed any Lucario set. Lucario can sweep your team pretty easily too if it has Ice Punch since it outspeeds the ev set you use now. Losing the defense investment isn't that big of a deal. You will still be able to live a hit from any Terrakion set, even after a Swords Dance, while if your Gliscor gets KO'd your Hippowdon can function as a decent physical wall as well. Keldeo, as by others before, is a huge threat. A Calm Mind set can come in on, forcing you to switch in Rotom-w and after it gets some residual damage on it, it's able to sweep your team after one Calm Mind (after some residual damage on Genesect). The best solution would be replacing Abomasnow with Latias. However, this might ruin the theme of the team as Shurtugal said. So you'll have to decide if you wish to rely on Rotom for Keldeo or if you're willing to get rid of dual weather for it. Hope I helped. Good luck.
  12. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    I'm not quite sure about this change in Gliscor's EVs since right now I'm running a more SDef oriented Hippowdon, making Hippo an option to counter Heatrans. But Taunt seems like a good idea, maybe even in place of Toxic, I'll see how this will work.

    And after seeing another teams I really noticed this team needs a Latias, because both my weather inducers are weak to Keldeo and have problems with sun teams, while Terrakion can be a huge problem if my Gliscor is gone. As soon as I finish my rain team I'll take a look in all these issues you all guys have pointed and try to perfect this team, since disrupting opposing weather seems almost like an antimeta play style.

    Thanks for all the feedback from Eranu, Electrolyte, Trollmonchan, Shurtugal, bubbly and A l e x a n d e r.
  13. KarateF22

    KarateF22

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2010
    Messages:
    101
    You need whirlwind on Hippowdon. Roar is slightly inferior due to it not affecting pokemon with soundproof. This means you can't phaze BP teams with Mr. Mime.

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