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The First Smogon Council - Salamence

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Aeolus, May 23, 2010.

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  1. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    I've said it before, his low speed and poor defensive typing is irrelevant to his ability to trap and kill checks. He is removing your checks, not sweeping, so those factors are completely irrelevant. Wobbuffet had poor Speed and didn't have the best defensive typing either. If we ban Tyranitar, we have at least made some of Mence's checks more viable, such as Cresselia (Don't bring up Scizor, Cress can deal with him with HP Fire), and stuff like Scarf Gengar and Starmie aren't AS weak to Pursuit (Yes, Scizor can Pursuit them, but Scizor is nowhere near as resilient as TTar when talking about Special Attackers like Gengar and Starmie). Cresselia would have more opportunities to heal with Moonlight (Although Hippowdon might come up in usage, I guess), so Mence isn't going to smack through her as easily. Removing TTar would suddenly make Mence's checks so much easier to use, and such, Mence wouldn't be as bad.
  2. Shizzle

    Shizzle

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    @Randomdog, that article is stupid, do not even bother, while it does have some valid points, it clearly has no use in such a complex game. If we used that logic, there would be only a few ubers...Also its not like we are outlawing the pokemon, just moving it to a more appropriate tier to keep OU balanced.
  3. SushiOnToast

    SushiOnToast

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    Why on earth do people keep saying that Dragonite is far inferior to Salamence in terms of offensive power? 1 less base attack and 10 less base special attack, that is it. Dragonite has a better movepool, fact. The difference in offensive base stats (not inc. speed) is almost unnoticable, also a fact.

    I'd even go as far to say as Dragonite is a more effective wallbreaker than Salamence due to the presence of Superpower, and is certainly not deadweight against offensive teams even with a lower speed than Salamence due to being more bulky and having access to ExtremeSpeed. Due to its already quite low speed, Dragonite is usually better off running a +offensive stat nature anyway, resulting in being able to JUST as hard as Salamence on BOTH sides of the spectrum (+special attack nature).The DD sets are played differently so I don't think they should even be compared.
  4. Shizzle

    Shizzle

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    Dragonite's 20 lower base speed is everything. Fairly self explanatory, there are MANY pokemon in the range from 80-100, and if Salamence can outspeed them, he is going to be superior. As a bulky or agility sweeper Dragonite does better, however as a pure offensive type pokemon, Salamence gets the job done. Also Intimidate means that he can come in on more occasions and Dragon Dance up, oustpeeding basically anything if they are +spe nature. Only revenge killable by CS Jirachi [depends on nature + EVs], CS Starmie, and CS Timid Gengar, and other priority pokemon.
  5. purple crobatchop

    purple crobatchop

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    Cool. Dragonite can wall but Salamence cannot. Offensive Salamence is 2HKOed by Heatran's Naive Unboosted Fire Blast. And Defensive Salamence is outclassed IMO. Ultimately people are more concerned about the speed difference, because they want to use dragonite as offensive as Salamence (EDIT: or in the way of the blue one not the orange one) so they compare it that way.
    In terms of power alone, Salamence is really even about the same as Infernape and Lucario. I don't see how intimidate helps other than for Scizor. All of them can run physical, special or mixed sets (EDIT: or run choiced or setup sets), but Salamence has the advantage of using the same type STAB (Dragon obviously) of both the physical and special side. No Lucario would run CC and Aura Sphere in the same set (unless you are to hit DTers on BT), Fire Punch and flamethrower at the same time is a no-no, while Draco Meteor and Outrage can go together, sometimes even recommended.
  6. SushiOnToast

    SushiOnToast

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    Cool,except....I didn't refer to speed once. My whole post was about the offensive power of the 2 dragons and how that Dragonite is being seen as far weaker in terms of those 2 stats. Feel free to re-read my post.

    If you want to try to switch in with a salamence when stealth rock is up, intimidate or no intimidate...it isn't taking another hit. e.g. Scarf Heatran 2hkos with rocks up so eat your heart out Mence. Plenty of things can do this to Mence.

    The DD set is revenge killable by anything that can A)survive a hit (far more than YOU apparently think, as there is a thing called investing in defences) B)hard enough hitting priority C) Base 100+ scarfer.
    If you actually team build effectively, then you wouldn't allow DDMence much room to set up. (ONCE AGAIN DOWN TO THE PLAYER...)

    Mixmence is really easy to revenge seeing as just about any scarfer outspeeds it and there are quite a few pokemon who just naturally outspeed it.

    Its all very well saying 'Salamence can come in alot and set up' but show me some things it is setting up on (ESPECIALLY that Dragonite can't). Lucario? No.....Gyarados? Usually no...Heatran?No.... If a Heatran is out and it wants you to not set up..you won't set up (we are saying Heatran has explosion, roar or a super effective move) because while you set up you will die. So really, it is down to the PLAYERS.

    Dragonite gets the wallbreaker job done equally as well, and only does the offensive DD version worse because scarf Rotom ( a couple other scarfers too?)outspeeds it and it can't TIE (note:tie isn't a 100% chance) with base +1 base 100s. Dragonite is completely capable of filling Salamences' shoes should it be banned. To sum up, 'Salamence gets the offensive job done' can be said about Dragonite too. Anyway, Dragonite can DD up easier because it can run bulkier DD sets which it usually does. If the opponent wants to switch out in an attempt to counter Salamence, where is your Intimidate there. Dragonite has staying power.

    I get the feeling alot of people are looking at this whole Dragonite thing on paper far too much, when in reality there is little that Salamence can do that Dragonite can't, other than look like a blue/green pancake. Actually, I get the feeling alot of the anti-Salamencers in the thread aren't using personal experience to make their judgements. Its like 'Salamence has awesome stats so it is uber coz it can run 2 good sets too!', seriously, when you break their arguments down, that is what they are.
  7. Objection

    Objection

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    You talk about offensive power and consider every stat other than attack and special attack to be irrelevant. By your theory, a hypothetical pokemon with base stats 1/255/1/255/1/1 would be the greatest offensive threat to the metagame despite being too slow to ever get the first hit and too frail to survive the opponent's first hit. Raw attacking stats and movepool are insufficient for a pokemon to be considered an offensive threat. Either speed or bulk (or both) is required as well.

    In terms of bulk, Dragonite gets 4 less base HP, 15 more base defence and 20 more base special defence. Consider that Salamence gets an effective temporary +1 defence due to Intimidate and Dragonite's bulk is not better enough to compensate for the lesser speed.

    OK, so what's a valid argument?
  8. Blackcharizard

    Blackcharizard

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    Where did this idea that Mence should be Uber suddenly come out of? Lati was never a counter for Mence, only a check, and we still have enough decent checks for Mence. Lati being banned doesn't really change too much.

    Anyway, here are some arguments I've seen presented for Mence to uber:


    1. "It's unpredictable" - This is a BS argument. Being unpredictable doesn't make something uber, sorry. Anything from Lucario to Honchkrow to Sudowoodo can be unpredictable. Nor do you need to sac a poke to find out its set honestly. Seems people can't predict anymore. The ability to predict and deal with things separates people like KG from scrub99778 at 100 CRE on the ladder. Most good players don't care about lesser ladder players, they are the ones keeping Ninjask, Vire, etc OU.

    2. "MixMence shreds stall!" - This is one of the more stupid arguments I have seen, a well built stall team doesn't lose to Mence, ever. Again if you can't deal with Salamence, maybe you're just bad?

    3. "Salamence can kill anything with prediction!"- So can Gallade, Magmortar, Dragonite etc lol.

    4. "Magnezone makes Salamence's job sweeping easier and removes Scizor as a check!"- Not Mences fault, make Magnezone suspect under the "support characteristic" then.

    5. "Bulky Mence is too strong!" -Yeah because something that loses to anything with Def EVs is totally too strong! It also loses to previous counters in bulky waters lol.

    6. "Checking and revenge killing is not viable," -Sure, because forcing it to switch and take 25% when it comes back in is not viable? As for checking, yes this is VERY viable, making the Mence user think "darn, I have to predict correctly to gain kills or I'm gonna have to switch and take 25% again!" and be fair though if you can predict well you DESERVE to get kills. No Pokemon guarantees kills through.

    7. "SR is moot, Mence has Roost and Rapid Spin support!" -Cool so the Rotoms suddenly make spinning sooo easy ? [/sarcasm] ._. As for Roost that's kinda like arguing Toxic Spikes is stopped by Natural Cure, yeah sure the problem goes away but its still always there and it cuts the effectiveness drastically of things like Blissey, Bliss has to keep healing and switching which gives you free switch ins. If Mence Roosts you get a free switch in and then has to keep healing each time it comes in to avoid getting wasted by SR.

    8. "No counterz bawwww," -Welcome to D/P/PT/HG/SS, the metagame where a lot of pokemon have no counters! Honestly if this was valid Dragonite and Lucario would be uber lol. No really they would.

    I honestly think Pokemon is becoming whinymon. Aka ban all the stuff that hits slightly hard and the slippery slope argument is coming into full effect.

    No matter how much you look at it, SR is THE most common move in the game. Tyranitar is Salamence's 2nd most common team mate (aka with SS, SR and LO recoil Salamence loses 41% of its HEALTH IN 1 TURN) and if you play around it with your preferred playstyle you really shouldn't lose. I.e. HO sacrifices Pokemon to stop others setting up, not just mence. Stall as said either has scarfers, multiple steels or bulky as heck pokes for Mence to get past which it shouldn't do if you play intelligently with them and use your brain. This is viable and you can't say otherwise or we wouldn't have stall teams at the top of the ladder. Lastly, doesn't bulky offense has a crap load of priority most of the time and Scizor? A Pokemon who can switch in on 3/4 of its moves at least on all sets and after SR and one turn of LO recoil kills it with Bullet Punch. Not to mention BO teams have an a[/i]ss load of steels and stuff like Swampert and other bulky waters etc, that's more than enough to deal with it if you don't suck. Not to mention scarfers and revenge killers. Since you know that's kinda what they're for, if your actual counter/check goes down they let you deal with things.
  9. purple crobatchop

    purple crobatchop

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    Because Garchomp is banned, opening the possibility of banning Salamence. As much as I want Garchomp to be in OU, I do realise that countering and checking is a lot less viable because Chomp has ground (rock resistance).
  10. Shizzle

    Shizzle

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    @SushiOnToast, are you mentally impaired??? Speed plays a HUGE role in these pokemon's offensive power, probably more so than attack itself, do you really think not including it is a bright idea?
  11. Yoz

    Yoz

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    I would agree, however, it is unpredicatable AND powerful, something Sudowoodo (and to lesser extent Honchkrow) can't boast.

    Mence is very effective at destroying stall, and even well built stall teams suffer against him. You may build a team to specifically resist Mence, but then you become weak to the rest of the metagame. Once again you are wrong.

    Even if you mispredict with Mence, you can punch a huge hole in the enemy with Mence and severely cripple that poke so that your revenge killer can come in and finish it. Another thing your examples can't do with the exception of Dnite who can do it to a lesser extent.

    The fact it has Roost means that on the switch it can recover away the SR damage. Allowing it switch in again later. Yes Rapid Spinning is a pain with all the ghosts going around, however, it isn't that HARD to do it. Usually, the enemy only has 1 poke to spin-block, and it isn't THAT hard to get rid of it. If you are a good player, you should usually be able to Rapid spin anyway.

    Actually there are only a few pokes without counters and those that don't are either Uber or can't take advantage of it.

    That is bull, and the only reason we ban is to balance the metagame. This argument has been put forward plenty of times and shot down every time so stop putting it forward.

    These are the main errors in your post that people are using in their arguments against Mence being Uber. It is not these reasons individually though that make Mence Uber but rather all together.
  12. SushiOnToast

    SushiOnToast

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    No I'm not...are you? :S

    I was commenting on OTHERS comparing their TWO OFFENSIVE STATS (referring to special attack and attack ONLY as this is what OTHERS were comparing, saying that Dragonite is far inferior in THOSE 2 STATS). Putting these words in capitals shouldn't be necessary tbh, you need to actually read all posts made by me, and what they are in reply to, not just look at random chunks and make your own assumptions as to what I am saying. The difference in speed isn't as relevant AS you are making out anyway. Sure it IS relevant, but mixnite does not need speed to break the walls it is supposed to (in the same way as mixmence does) and dragon dance is boosting its speed anyway on the DD set, and is likely to get off MORE dances than salamence could manage due to it running bulkier DD sets.

    I chose to comment on those 2 stats specifically in response to various other posts.


    They were irrelevant to my argument and the point I was making, yes. I never said every stat other than the 2 attack stats were irrelevant to sweeping abilities which is what you are implying. Dragonite does not need base 100 speed to break walls. It does not need base 100 speed to outspeed alot of shit after a DD. After a DD, the only common things that would revenge it that wouldn't revenge Salamence is Rotom-A. (I don't call tying with the other base 100s GOOD for Mence.)

    Once again, another person completely disregarding the fact that I was commenting on people comparing these TWO STATS. Speed was simply not relevant to the point I was making. My theory? I didn't have a theory so go ahead and run my theory by me. When did I say that a slow poke > fast poke? Oh yeah I didn't...the closest I came to saying that was Dragonite can break walls just as easily as Mence even with 20 less base speed. Note: BREAK WALLS. I won't commenting on you listing EVs instead of Base Stats as I guess that was simply a stupid mistake on your part.

    Why is this lesser speed even that significant? It doesn't cause Dragonite to lose to much more at all. base 80 isn't exactly slow and in response to your 'you must have bulk and speed as well as good attacking stats to be an offensive threat'....Dragonite DOES have bulk...and it DOES have speed. You are making out as though 20 less base speed suddenly means every mon and its mum are outspeeding Dragonite.

    Not the arguments you are providing. I cannot give valid arguments for Mence to be Uber :)
  13. Shizzle

    Shizzle

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    You just don't understand do you. You could say the same thing about blissey, its the best wall in the game, JUST LOOK AT ITS HUGE HP AND SPD, its a monster, and then we come and mention its low Def, you will defend by saying you were talking about its HP and SpD stats only as a wall. Which of course makes no sense. You can't say speed is irrelevant on Salamance, WHY DOES LIKE 56% or something run + Spe, and 74%ish run 252 Spe. For god sake, Speed is what nearly the entire offensive metagame is about, how you can even think of not including it is just plain stupid.

    And also if we do go down the road on your path, dragonite is still outclassed, 10 bonus SpA, and you don't need dragonites movepool, Salamence can do it all with just Outrage/Dragon Claw, Fire Blast and Earthquake

    More proof you are not in the right mind set, this is only one topic/issue, if you read the thread, there are NUMEROUS other issues that have been pointed out...
  14. SushiOnToast

    SushiOnToast

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    No you are the one not getting it, you NEED to go back and re-read my original post, it was a response to the numerous posts comparing the 2 attack stats. Why would I need to include speed when that is not what I was responding to? You are taking everything out of context. How much clearer can I make this to you...I DID NOT SAY SPEED IS IRRELEVANT ON SALAMENCE AS AN OFFENSIVE STAT, I SAID THE SMALL SPEED DIFFERENCE WAS NOT RELEVANT TO MY ARGUMENT THAT DRAGONITE CAN BE ALMOST AS MUCH OF AN OFFENSIVE THREAT AS SALAMENCE. Dragonite can run that exact same moveset and use it almost as effectively, but the vast majority wouldn't because Dragonite has access to better options e.g. running a bulky set with roost. Dragonite pulls it off better, so it doesn't need to resort to all out offense anyway.

    Lol? Why is that proof I am not in the mindset? Do I have to address every different point made in the thread? No...I don't. Have you heard of an example? Because that is what I was giving. The example showed how the arguments for uber are coming across. You are providing next to no actual evidence of the so called Uberness..

    You are consistentely taking what I say out of context for whatever reason.
  15. Shizzle

    Shizzle

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    No, you still don't have a clue as to what is going on. Once more you say dragonite is almost as large as an offensive threat as Salamence, 100% not true. In fact, he is no where near as big as a threat when compared to Salamence.

    And once more you say that there is a 'small' speed difference. Let me ask you this, if jirachi had 99 Base speed, would that make any difference to its usage as a typical choice scarfer, according to your logic no.

    SPEED IS FUCKING EVERYTHING, AND WHEN WE ARE TALKING 80-100+, EVEN 10 SPEED IS CRUCIAL, DO YOU NOT FUCKING UNDERSTAND THIS?
  16. purple crobatchop

    purple crobatchop

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    In fact one of the reasons why Garchomp is banned is because of its 102 base speed. Only a difference of 2 (or about 4-5 whent raslated to lv 100?)
  17. SushiOnToast

    SushiOnToast

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    but WHY? WHY is it not? Stop repeating yourself xD you aren't showing why it can't be just as devestating as Mence.

    We aren't talking about Jirachi or a choice scarfer....We are talking about a wallbreaker set of Dragonite compared to Mences' equivalent...and a DD set of Dragonite compared to Mences' equivalent... comparing 2 mons does not mean the same logic is true in every other comparison. In this situation, this is because their roles are different.

    I'm going to make this as simple as possible for YOUR benefit:

    -20 speed does not affect Dragonites wallbreaking abilities, it will break the typical stall/ semi-stall team just as easy as if it were to be a base 100 speed mon.
    -20 speed does not affect Dragonites DD set much as the only poke that can now revenge it that couldn't revenge Salamence is Scrotum-A (obviously assuming both dragons here are +1). Speed ties shouldn't be relied on when it comes to sweeping when you can fall back on things such as resistances so I am not including the scarfed 100s.

    Completely irrelevant as 102 speed lets it outspeed the base 100s, 100% of the time. That speed allows it to do potentially so much more than the 20 extra speed allows Salamence to do when compared to Dragonite. Just because I am saying Salamence doesn't do alot more than Dragonite with 20 extra speed, does not equate to me saying SPEED HAS NO EFFECT ON OFFENSIVE ABILITIES or IF SOMETHING HAS LESS THAN 20 BASE SPEED DIFFERENCE WITH SOEMTHING ELSE, THEN THEY ARE ALMOST EQUAL IN TERMS OF EFFECTIVENESS.


    What is with you and taking an argument and then using it in a completely different situation that it just can't be used in...

    Salamence DOES outclass Dragonite when it comes to offensive DD, nodoubt, but not by a long way which is what I am trying to get through to you.
  18. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    You are kind of downplaying Dragonite here. Yes, Speed is very important, but SushiOnToast is talking about Wall-breaking, and since most walls doesn't pack Speed, whether he has 80 Speed or 100 Speed is irrelevant. Nite and Mence are quite different Pokemon, and using Dragonite as an inferior Mence or vice versa is just stupid.

    For example, for anything bulky, Dragonite is vastly better because his better defenses (Don't mention Intimidate, since that's basically Turn 1 ONLY). Something like a CB set is done better by Dragonite as well since he has Extremespeed, and so on. Obviously, MixMence and Offensive DDMence are usually outclass Dragonite who runs a similar set (MixNite definitely has its merits, having to lock yourself into Outrage to beat Blissey absolutely sucks). Underestimate Dragonite at your peril.
  19. Objection

    Objection

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    That doesn't answer my question.
  20. SushiOnToast

    SushiOnToast

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  21. Objection

    Objection

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    Firstly, I asked you the question, not Wikipedia. Secondly, you still haven't answered the question. The topic of discussion is Salamence's status. The claim is that Salamence is Uber. What would be a valid argument to support that claim (hypothetically speaking)? What specific traits would a pokemon like Salamence need in order to be Uber?
  22. SushiOnToast

    SushiOnToast

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    I am providing you the resources to get an answer to your question. I'm not at fault for you not wanting to do some research.

    You are asking someone who does not think Salamence is uber to give a valid argument that Salamence IS uber. See the flaw?

    In order to be uber it has to fill the offensive, defensive or support characteristic. Specific traits are what those who think Salamence is uber (i.e.YOU?) need to find, not those who DON'T think he is uber (i.e.ME).

    Specific traits of the offensive characteristic would be something like having a 102 speed stat, not being OHKOed by a +2 Lucario Xspeed after rocks, being able to smash through any playstyle with brute force, <insert Garchomp characteristic here>.

    Well if you were to read the posts, you would know that we are discussing Dragonite to answer questions similar to: 'If Salamence is suspect, why isn't Dragonite?' and to express why we think Salamence is too similar to Dragonite to make it uber or if we don't think that etc.
    It is because they are quite similar and it just brings up alot of questions about why Salamence is apparently such a uber mon where various offensive pokes that present just as much of a threat aren't.
  23. JonTheRed

    JonTheRed

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    I can't believe how many people are bringing up the slippery slope argument. You guys know that's a logical fallacy, and that those are bad, right?

    Anyway, Garchomp was banned because it was in its own speed tier and it had STAB on both Outrage and Earthquake. Also, something about SubYache. I wasn't exactly paying that much attention to the Garchomp era.

    Salamence has STAB on Outrage (and, by association, Draco Meteor), and the moves to take out the one type that resists its STAB. Garchomp had near-unresisted coverage with just its STAB, but lacked the Special Attack stat to use things like Fire Blast and Draco Meteor successfully. Salamence, with Garchomp's Attack stat and Latias' Special Attack stat (note: both of them are Uber now), can easily go physical, special, or mixed--something that a lot of Pokemon in OU can do, but none with the power and coverage that Salamence brings. Also, all his stats except Special Attack are higher than Lucario's, so don't even make the "oh, he can go mixed, so what" kind of argument.
  24. Blackcharizard

    Blackcharizard

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  25. SushiOnToast

    SushiOnToast

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    -Latias was neutral to stealth rock and had a 130 spec.def enabling it to counter a huge amount of special attackers and essentially take over alot of their roles as an offensive special attacker. Latias is a large reason that a physical metagame prevailed whilst the special metagame was shoved down. (see: Greek RMT no longer being viable).

    -Garchomp was resistant to stealth rock and immune to stealth rock, along with an ability that boosted its evasion, had its own speed stat so it wasn't important to boost its speed and could therefore afford to boost its attack to +2 in 1 turn. Garchomp wrecked teams from the off and had little problems switching in.

    -Salamence has trouble reliably switching in on anything that isn't a physical fighting attack or a ground attack, takes 25% damage from the very common stealth rock, and is not immune to sandstorm. Has recovery in the form of roost but not the stats to use it as effectively as Latias. A decent ability but effectively only lasts 1 turn.

    Sure mixed LUCARIO cannot be compared to Salamence, but Infernape I feel can totally be compared to Salamence. Infernape is arguably just as, if not a better wallbreaker than Salamence yet we aren't banging down its door. Infernape can run a MULTITUDE of sets, each effective in its own right. Infernape has access to both nasty plot AND swords dance having the stats to utilize them both.

    I'm interested in people being able to justify how they can think Salamence is Uber under the offensive characteristic (for the people that think this) but they can't think Infernape is uber in the same respect.

    Warning: Think before you start throwing out statements like 'Infernape can be walled by X' because it can get around that without specializing heavily.
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