The First Smogon Council - Salamence

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I think that all this stall is simply leading to the celebration of the move encore. There isn't a single person who'll tell you that in this new meta that revolves around subs and stalling, encore becomes one of the best moves around. I personally that Mence gets removed, making the metagame extremely balanced for one of the best summers I've ever had.
 
Which makes him either slower, weaker, and overall worse than he already is. Not a bright idea.
I use an Adamant Scarfgon (no sense to run Jolly with Salamence gone), and I invested 216 EVs in speed to just barely outrun +1 Electrivire, +2 Empoleon, and max speed +1 Dragonite. I dumped 80 EVs in HP and put the rest into attack. I don't really notice anything speed and damage wise, but that 80 HP EVS give me the ability to survive a +2 Lucario's Extremespeed and a MixApe's Close Combat. The only real flaws I see are having Scarf Jirachis and opposing Scarfgons outspeeding you.
 
I've never had a problem with Kingdra before, but now it is a massive pain, specially when it comes in after you killed something. It Dragon Dances and I usually swap to Zapdos or Jirachi, even then it DDances again, maybe one more time after that and then just sweeps my entire team even without LO, infact Lefties are worse as it is harder to take down. It seems that without Mence, a semi-decent pokemon can succeed. TBH with only Dragon weakness this ain't great.
 
This whole thread makes me skeptical of this "Council" suspect process. The players that devote the most time to this metagame are the ones that like it best, and they will vote Salamence banned. Their opinions will NOT reflect the entire Smogon community and there's something really wrong about that.

Mark my words, the relative unknowns selected for the council will be the most fervent supporters of Salamence being banned.
 

FlareBlitz

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That would be a good point, but it's clearly mentioned in the OP that experience in both Suspect AND Standard ladders will be taken into consideration. Hopefully the mods account for that sort of sampling bias before they make their decision.
 
This whole thread makes me skeptical of this "Council" suspect process. The players that devote the most time to this metagame are the ones that like it best, and they will vote Salamence banned. Their opinions will NOT reflect the entire Smogon community and there's something really wrong about that.

Mark my words, the relative unknowns selected for the council will be the most fervent supporters of Salamence being banned.
I never really thought about that, but that is a valid argument. I'm playing suspect because i can basically. i also would like to have an opportunity to vote (not likely that I will) but its is a hell of alot easier than trying to ramp up my CRE on the standard ladder.
 

VKCA

(Virtual Circus Kareoky Act)
This whole thread makes me skeptical of this "Council" suspect process. The players that devote the most time to this metagame are the ones that like it best, and they will vote Salamence banned. Their opinions will NOT reflect the entire Smogon community and there's something really wrong about that.

Mark my words, the relative unknowns selected for the council will be the most fervent supporters of Salamence being banned.
I don't know where you're getting the idea that a council would be any worse bias-wise than the normal process.
Voting rights are determined by experience with suspect. If you like the suspect meta, chances are you are going to have more experience with the suspect(or lack there of) than someone who doesn't like the meta. Thats the way it's been with every recent suspect test.
I don't see how the council version of the suspect test has any more predisposition to bias than than the non council version of the suspect test.
What your pointing out would be more of a flaw with manner of qualifying voters itself, but the idea is that battlers with the most experience will have the most educated opinion about whether or not a suspect is uber (bl in the case of uu).
If you want to see opinions that reflect all of smogon, start a thread/poll in stark.
 

Mario With Lasers

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That would be a good point, but it's clearly mentioned in the OP that experience in both Suspect AND Standard ladders will be taken into consideration. Hopefully the mods account for that sort of sampling bias before they make their decision.
Not only that, but I'm sure there are some good (or average at least) players out there that want Mence in OU and surely play on Suspect to get enough experience/CRE/deviation/etcetera to vote.
 
Question- When is the vote for salamence? I've been hearing July....

If it's July, then it's only roughly two months away from Black and White's release date.(I'm thinking Sept.) If salamence is banned then there might be only two months of it being uber before it goes into the pot with all the other mons that need testing with the new changes. So I think we should freeze the tiers until Black and White comes out. Now I wasn't here when D&P came out so I don't know if saying this is too early or not. I'm just thinking all this discussion, testing, theorymon, etc. will all be for not in a couple of months.
 
Question- When is the vote for salamence? I've been hearing July....

If it's July, then it's only roughly two months away from Black and White's release date.(I'm thinking Sept.) If salamence is banned then there might be only two months of it being uber before it goes into the pot with all the other mons that need testing with the new changes. So I think we should freeze the tiers until Black and White comes out. Now I wasn't here when D&P came out so I don't know if saying this is too early or not. I'm just thinking all this discussion, testing, theorymon, etc. will all be for not in a couple of months.
I'd also like to know when the vote is going to take place.
And a valid argument has been raised in my opinion...
 
I'd also like to know when the vote is going to take place.
And a valid argument has been raised in my opinion...
Cool, for once I don't look like a total idiot xD
Black and White wont be programed on Shoddy for a long time, so I dont think our time will be wasted.
See if you think we have enough time then I say go for it. I'm just going by that latias took two votes to decide if it's uber, iirc. I'm also stating the fact that BW are closing on us fast, rather we like it or not.

Edit: Also I might join in on the fun here and see how a mence free metagame is. I'm usually a go-with-the-flow kind of guy, but I think I'll have some input on this one.
 

shrang

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I can't see why it couldn't be programmed that quickly. I mean, the main mechanics aren't changing (Which means the main programming shouldn't change), it's probably only a few changes plus a shit load more Pokemon to add.
 
I can't see why it couldn't be programmed that quickly. I mean, the main mechanics aren't changing (Which means the main programming shouldn't change), it's probably only a few changes plus a shit load more Pokemon to add.
Java programing isn't that easy. True, a lot of it is going to be cut and paste, but we can't get an accurate meta going without knowing EVERY move that EVERY new and old pokemon is going to get. It's a lot of work.
 

SJCrew

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That's easy. All we have to do is exactly the same as every other Pokemon site does: leech info off of Serebii. Seriously, those guys get the lowdown on everything first.
 
As far as programming is concerned, inserting a hundred new Pokemon/moves to the database is probably rather simple.

I would imagine that figuring out illegal combinations is a bit of a headache, though.
 
A question:

So let's say there is a metagame consisting of 26 Pokemon, labeled A-Z respectively. After a little while of battling, it becomes clear that Pokemon A is clearly ahead of the competition and seems to be a dominant force in the metagame. Smogon recognizes this and decides to take action by doing a suspect test and then subsequently banning Pokemon A. Now the metagame consists of Pokemon B-Z. After more battling, Pokemon B becomes the best becasue the absence of Pokemon A allows it to thrive way more than before. People have mentioned that the possibility of Salamence being banned causes new threats or pains to surface in the ladder (Kingdra or Infernape or Lucario or whoever). Doesnt banning Pokemon in general throw the tier into more chaos then keeping it around and finding new ways to deal with it? (Honestly, I think Garchomp is an exception here, & I don't think Latias should have ever been OU in the 1st place) I mean what are the main arguments for Mence becoming uber?

Anyway, won't banning Mence just bring about new threats/pokes that people will eventually complain about in the future which somgon may attempt to fix with another ban or suspect test?
 

Stellar

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Question- When is the vote for salamence? I've been hearing July....

If it's July, then it's only roughly two months away from Black and White's release date.(I'm thinking Sept.) If salamence is banned then there might be only two months of it being uber before it goes into the pot with all the other mons that need testing with the new changes. So I think we should freeze the tiers until Black and White comes out. Now I wasn't here when D&P came out so I don't know if saying this is too early or not. I'm just thinking all this discussion, testing, theorymon, etc. will all be for not in a couple of months.
Each generation has its own tiers. The tiers for the fourth generation will not be the same as the tiers for the fifth generation. Even if it is declared OU in the fifth generation, it might remain Uber in the fourth.
 

shrang

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You'd hope it doesn't go down that way. Even when a "best" Pokemon is available, it doesn't always mean it's broken.
 
A question:

So let's say there is a metagame consisting of 26 Pokemon, labeled A-Z respectively. After a little while of battling, it becomes clear that Pokemon A is clearly ahead of the competition and seems to be a dominant force in the metagame. Smogon recognizes this and decides to take action by doing a suspect test and then subsequently banning Pokemon A. Now the metagame consists of Pokemon B-Z. After more battling, Pokemon B becomes the best becasue the absence of Pokemon A allows it to thrive way more than before. People have mentioned that the possibility of Salamence being banned causes new threats or pains to surface in the ladder (Kingdra or Infernape or Lucario or whoever). Doesnt banning Pokemon in general throw the tier into more chaos then keeping it around and finding new ways to deal with it? (Honestly, I think Garchomp is an exception here, & I don't think Latias should have ever been OU in the 1st place) I mean what are the main arguments for Mence becoming uber?

Anyway, won't banning Mence just bring about new threats/pokes that people will eventually complain about in the future which somgon may attempt to fix with another ban or suspect test?
This is exactly what I was saying not long after coming back and becoming more acquainted with how DPPt competitive battling worked. It just seems like a never ending cycle of fail, threats get banned, old threats that where cowering before out of fear rise up and everyone starts claiming they have to go out of there way to deal with it a few months later. All the while OU Pokemon and the players themselves seem to keep any chance of things from lower tiers move up in order to keep the metagame from going stale. So I ask, how long is it before where wondering if Pokemon X is now suspect with only Y and Z remaining? Hopefully by then V's metagame has been properly broken in.
 
Is mence really this unstoppable force, or is it a matter of a few people with reputation and influence not liking him? Even with Latias, it was found to be OU how many times? What changed all the sudden?

I'm a complete newb, only recently having stepped into the world of competitive battling, so my opinion might not mean much but I find him pretty predictable.

He almost always runs one of two sets; DD or mixmence. In addition to that both sets almost always run the exact same moves and EVs etc. Sure he's versitile and able to sweep teams in the hands of a skilled player or in the face of an unprepared team, but can't that be said for a lot of different Pokémon?

I can usually tell what he's going to do based on what he switches in on, and moreover he usually either fires a draco or prepares to set up a DD. Unless I have good reason to believe otherwise I assume I'll be switching into the more imminent threat of a mixed set and act accordingly.

I know that just because I don't have a big problem with him doesn't make him not uber, but anyone that allows him to come in safely without a good answer can expect to get slaughtered and that should be a no brainier, and isn't that the way it is with a lot of Pokémon?

Also I think people have to remember that he holds an important place in the meta, and in his absence a lot of potent threats no longer have to fear him. That might not be a good thing in all cases.
 
Is mence really this unstoppable force, or is it a matter of a few people with reputation and influence not liking him? Even with Latias, it was found to be OU how many times? What changed all the sudden?

I'm a complete newb, only recently having stepped into the world of competitive battling, so my opinion might not mean much but I find him pretty predictable.

He almost always runs one of two sets; DD or mixmence. In addition to that both sets almost always run the exact same moves and EVs etc. Sure he's versitile and able to sweep teams in the hands of a skilled player or in the face of an unprepared team, but can't that be said for a lot of different Pokémon?


I can usually tell what he's going to do based on what he switches in on, and moreover he usually either fires a draco or prepares to set up a DD. Unless I have good reason to believe otherwise I assume I'll be switching into the more imminent threat of a mixed set and act accordingly.

I know that just because I don't have a big problem with him doesn't make him not uber, but anyone that allows him to come in safely without a good answer can expect to get slaughtered and that should be a no brainier, and isn't that the way it is with a lot of Pokémon?

Also I think people have to remember that he holds an important place in the meta, and in his absence a lot of potent threats no longer have to fear him. That might not be a good thing in all cases.
Hmm, from what I've seen Salamence doesn't posses the same potency as Garchomp did when he was in the suspect tier. There were a few comments made, though, as to why Garchomp deserved a ban while Salamence did not (becasue people were making comparisons) but I don't remeber them off the top of my head. For some reason quite a few people believe Salamece is easily revenged/killed, but the argument is still made that no priority move constitutes as a counter.

Those Dragon Pokes are trouble, man.
 
...I must say, I understand why people disagree about Mence being moved up into Ubers, but remember something: It's not only about if he's too good for OU. It's about creating the fairest, best possible metagame for people to enjoy.

Now, some people are citing that there's a load of stall on the ladders -- this is absolutely true, but chances are that this is old stall players coming out of the woodwork to take advantage of people who aren't as in practice facing stall (since MEnce made stall that much less popular to play and harder to play for those who aren't top tier stall players like IPL), and I would bet in a few days or weeks it'll die down quite a bit. This meta is surprisingly balanced and fun for me. I get to experiment with a lot of new novelties, sets, and team combos I would have though impossible in the "Mence" meta: RestTalk Gyarados on a mainly offense team? Fucker's IMPOSSIBLE to take down with screens.

Oh. And Shaymin.
 
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