The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[TheValkyries]

How many times must I say this.

THE COMPARISON IS NOT BETWEEN THE POWER OF HO-OH AND SALAMENCE, BUT RATHER HOW LIMITING RESIDUAL DAMAGE IS TO BOTH.

Both are immediately put onto a short schedule as they're put onto the field. Both are very limited in what they can do, and really don't like switching out. But their tiering is not decided by the fact that they take a ton of damage upon switching into SR. This has always been the point, and it seems as if everyone completely ignores it due to the insistence by some that Ho-oh is some kind of invincible force as he switches in and can't be stopped. It feels as if people have tried to force me to prove to them that Ho-oh is OU because of SR damage, when my point is the opposite, he's obviously uber. He's uber despite the fact that many things can take him down when he's at 50%, and not OU because of it. Saying that SR and residual damage is one of the few things keeping Mence OU is simply ludicrous. If you are forced to rely on weakening Mence through SR, which is easily spun away, LO, which gives Mence a 10 attacking move time frame, which is more than plenty, and SS, which is only on the field 25%**, then you need to understand that something is wrong.


**- Usage goes by total usage on the ladder, NOT by usage on teams, so the claim of SS being in 50% of all battles is completely false.

 

[Requiem[9]]

Ok, time to address these three points together. First, keep in mind I'm not saying you cannot predict your way into switching into a resisted attack, however, there is no pokemon with no means of hurting mence, whether that be with either status or attacking moves. I said "without danger" to it, not without dying. Let's look at a list of OU pokemon:

list

This list is a bit absurd to me. Not only would you have to predict the 'mence switch, but you would have to use, in a lot of cases, something like HP Ice or Explosion to catch it off guard. You would need to have one of those moves to begin with. And, prediction completely aside, when it is in, you're basically sacrificing a pokemon. For example (I wrote this part first and then the introduction second, so if it sounds awkward, that's why):

Are you suggesting that I run Ice Fang or Stone Edge of every single one of my Gliscors so I can have something could possibly check 'mence by stopping it from setting up? Stone Edge might not even do that much against a healthy, slightly bulky DD-mence after Intimidate from most Gliscor, like the Leftovers-DD 'mence that was suggested on the Smogcast, so that basically necessitates Ice Fang, which is a useless move against every single other pokemon, bar opposing Gliscor. The fact that you would even see Ice Fang on Gliscor says a lot about how centralizing 'mence can be, since Gliscor rarely has enough moveslots for everything it wants anyways. Not only that, against a Mixmence that's switched in on its Roost/EQ, you probably lose your Gliscor which is bad news bears for a lot of teams. I know that this is just one example, but there are a lot of pokemon on that list I could apply about the same logic to; Celebi, for another that I've had personal experience with, Dusknoir, Forretress, Vaporeon. With all of these, you are not only forced to run a move that you might not want to run, but, in play, you HAVE to stay in much of the time to make sure that 'mence doesn't DD, and end up getting KO'd by the equally common Mixmence. Measures like Thunder Wave and WoW aren't even reliable; I've seen DD-mence with Lum Berry around recently and, while this isn't optimal, it can do a number on a lot of teams.

I'm late to this argument, so this might be a rehashing of past points, but if it is, I don't think that it's been treated nearly seriously enough.

 

[Despotar]

This isn't about whether Ho-oh or Mence is better.
It's whether Mence is to powerful in OU. It's like saying "But Gallade can't compete in BL! We better just let him ruin the UU metagame." (That's a example, lets not use haters gunna hate here.)
Ubers in a Ban tier for OU, and OU is the more important. Besides, things like Garchomp are Ubers, even though it has very low actual usage in ubers, it's too good for OU.
Lets end this Ho-oh V.S Mence discussion.

 

[Chou Toshio]

This list is a bit absurd to me. Not only would you have to predict the 'mence switch, but you would have to use, in a lot of cases, something like HP Ice or Explosion to catch it off guard. You would need to have one of those moves to begin with. And, prediction completely aside, when it is in, you're basically sacrificing a pokemon. For example (I wrote this part first and then the introduction second, so if it sounds awkward, that's why):

Are you suggesting that I run Ice Fang or Stone Edge of every single one of my Gliscors so I can have something could possibly check 'mence by stopping it from setting up? Stone Edge might not even do that much against a healthy, slightly bulky DD-mence after Intimidate from most Gliscor, like the Leftovers-DD 'mence that was suggested on the Smogcast, so that basically necessitates Ice Fang, which is a useless move against every single other pokemon, bar opposing Gliscor. The fact that you would even see Ice Fang on Gliscor says a lot about how centralizing 'mence can be, since Gliscor rarely has enough moveslots for everything it wants anyways. Not only that, against a Mixmence that's switched in on its Roost/EQ, you probably lose your Gliscor which is bad news bears for a lot of teams. I know that this is just one example, but there are a lot of pokemon on that list I could apply about the same logic to; Celebi, for another that I've had personal experience with, Dusknoir, Forretress, Vaporeon. With all of these, you are not only forced to run a move that you might not want to run, but, in play, you HAVE to stay in much of the time to make sure that 'mence doesn't DD, and end up getting KO'd by the equally common Mixmence. Measures like Thunder Wave and WoW aren't even reliable; I've seen DD-mence with Lum Berry around recently and, while this isn't optimal, it can do a number on a lot of teams.

I'm late to this argument, so this might be a rehashing of past points, but if it is, I don't think that it's been treated nearly seriously enough.

First off, you're missing one of the big points about the list that on mence's end, it too doesn't know what the enemy is running. Part of the meaning of that list is that those pokemon represent the possible danger of those moves-- even if it doesn't have them. Which is why mence has to be weary, just like the other party has to be weary of mence.

Second, what's your point? There's no way to have counters for every set of everything. If your gliscor is having 4 slot syndrom, that's because there's a lot of shit that gliscor could potentially do! No, you are not entitled to being able to counter everything, and you're especially not entitled to win every potential match up that may turn out bad because the opponent had the balls to run a non-standard set.

You are certainly not entitled to guaranteed stopping sweeper X, so if you have a pokemon on your team that is setup fodder for sweeper X, and you don't have a means of stopping it from setting up and sweeping you amongst your teammates-- frankly you deserve to get swept.

I don't get what you're complaining about?

Nor do I think every pokemon, whether it be infernape, Starmie or Vaporeon, who questions to carry an electric or ice move for Gyara or Salamence respectively, be entitled to have that decision taken away simply by banning one of the two problems. I think that necessity to consider multiple threats, and thus balance the overall team is actually part of what brings out the skill of team building and intrigue in the game itself.

"I can't counter every threat, so something has to be banned!"

Do you even realize how ridiculous that sounds?

In the context of 20-30 potential new potent threats in new pokemon, along with everyone getting bigger, badder move pools in 2 and a half months from now with B&W . . .

. . . your whining sounds even more ridiculous.



In any case, let's not bring non-standard sets into the argument. To consider if Salamence is overpowered, we have to focus and consider if his two main sets are indeed too overpowering. The reason not to think too hard about roost or lum berry or whatever bullshit, is because ANYTHING can run gimmicky sets to catch surprise value here or there at the cost of being less efficient. That includes Salamence checks as well. Most of the Pro-Uber players who are actually worth arguing with (are key in the discussion) have already realized and acknowledged this point.

 

[TheValkyries]

"I can't counter everything, so something has to be banned!"

You say this is whining, and call it ridiculous. But that's not why Mence having no counters is significant. Gengar, arguably has no counters because of subpainsplit. But that's because it has a specific set to take down it's counters. Infernape arguably has no counters because it has approximately 837 viable sets, and there isn't one Pokemon that can stop it all. But even still, the only thing Starmie can't come in on is a Grass Knot from either Specially based MixNape or Nasty Plot Nape, and the only thing Tentacreul can't come in on is a Swords Dance set that has Thunder Punch. Meanwhile, Mence builds a set and it's so retardedly powerful that you simply cannot counter it. That's a huge difference.

This is not a discussion about "Mence is too hard too handle." It's a discussion of whether or not Mence is too powerful for OU. And Mence having no counters, not by unpredictability, but by sheer brute force is a testament to just that.

 

[verycoolguy]

Yes, I made a mistake here, since I was under the impression that Ho-oh can Sub twice, but she can't since Sandstorm hits before Leftovers (I am assuming Leftovers here, because Ho-oh doesn't need a Life Orb in OU). I apologise for the confusion here, but it doesn't really make a difference. Tyranitar is only a check to Ho-oh because he can't switch into EQ. If you want to put it that way, bulky Waters and Steels are all checks to Mence, and such, you have a much bigger list of checks than you have against Ho-oh, therefore, easier to deal with.

Ho-oh also has many checks too. Since there are many Pokemon faster than it is, and Ho-oh doesn't have a Speed boosting move, they don't need a Scarf, so they don't even need to worry about being locked in a move, or they can use the stronger Bands or Specs. It really should not be that difficult for a faster Pokemon to check a Ho-oh with 50% HP. This is assuming checks, meaning that Ho-oh did not Roost on a switch, and should the Ho-oh Roost instead of attack, the Pokemon that stayed in can attack. While there can be a problem if Ho-oh comes in on a Choiced Pokemon, the same can be said for Salamence, or even Lucario, or even defensive Pokemon that like to Roar out switch-ins.

stuff

No one is mentioning anything about either Ho-oh or Mence's performance in Ubers.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Sorry Valk, but I'm going to have to call bull on Mence being unique in being able to overpower its counters. Here's a post I made earlier about Infernape Muscling through checks and counters

See, here's the key difference-- SR weak. Because Infernape lacks it, you have to counter it multiple times, because it can switch out with relatively little cost. In fact, that's one of the beautiful things about Infernape, playing him as a wall breaker that also can act like a more flexible choice pokemon, able to punch holes rivaling a Specs/Band poke (and potential U-Turn abuse), and be fairly free to switch out and back in again!

Salamence might be difficult to counter once, but then you really only have to counter it once-- or if mence gets forced out, the cost to it is much greater than for infernape.

Physical mix-nape can (will be) perfectly happy to Close Combat Tentacruel/Vappy to the face and switch out to do it again later all day. Try having mence do the same thing. Lets look at your list of Infernape counters, shall we (because some are pretty ridiculous):

Tentacruel: Takes 36-42% from Close Combat, 40-47% from Stone Edge coming from physicalmix Infernape. That's not even taking into account the possibility of a Swords Dance. Factoring in Stealth Rock, Infernape has a small chance to kill Tentacruel outright, 2hko'ing before Tentacruel even gets to attack. If Tentacruel switches in on Swords Dance, it better switch right back out if it doesn't want to die to Stone Edge. Even without going immediately for the kill, Nape can switch out, and guaranteed kill tentacruel the next time it tries to do that, without even touching stone edge, just by spamming Close Combat. And with no SR weak, Infernape is perfectly free to do this. Keep in mind that the same Tentacruel takes 20-24% from Overheat, so even if it switches into the most ideal move, 1 SR + 1 Close Combat (first time it switches in) + SR + Overheat + Close Combat (second time it switches in) = a dead tentacruel (even with minimum damage).

Vaporeon: 47.8% - 56.5% from Close Combat from Physical Mixnape, and if I were using physical, close combat would be my spamming move of choice. Assuming SR and Sand (to stop Vappy's Lefties recovery), Vaporeon is not countering this-- period.

Suicune: 53% - 62.9% from Special Nape's Grass Knot on Crocune, Suicune's bulkiest set. And now you know why Suicune does not like switching in directly into Infernape. Keeping in mind that the same Suicune takes 30% - 35.6% from special Infernape's Close Combat and 24-28% from its Fire Blast, so factor in Stealth Rock, and Suicune will be having a hard time countering Special Mixnape ONCE let alone twice. Physical does 35.6% - 41.8% with Close Combat, so unless you're using Rest, you are only countering physical mixnape once too (though you can guaranteed do it once, if you are sure the nape in question isn't a special one carrying grass knot).

Zapdos: Wait, what?? Zappy is taking 62.1% - 73.6% from Special Infernape's Fire Blast. Let's not go into Physical's Stone Edge. Factor in SR . . . no . . . Zappy has no business trying to counter Infernape.

Gyarados: Bulky Dancer takes 29.2% - 34.3% from Physcial Mixnape's Overheat. It takes 47.6% - 56.2% from -1 Stone Edge. Factor in SR, Gyara is dead. Even if it switches in on Close Combat, there's still a chance it could get killed. If you are using a different set, you are dead-- period.

Salamence/Dragonite: LOL, so you are going to switch in, take a hit from STAB Fire Blast/Overheat/Close Combat, take 25% from SR, and then try to survive an HP Ice or Stone Edge (nape's faster)? No f'ing way . . .

few UU pokemon: I think bringing Cress/Regi into Mence's discussion is irrelevant, so we won't bother talking about some pokemon who are probably even less relevant.

Starmie: I left this until the end because it's a bit of a special case (faster and has recover). Starmie has serious set-syndrom, as it cannot figure out whether it wants to be powerful or bulky, and people try to use it to check too many things. As a result, its strength to stop something like Infernape is also weakened. In any case, Starmie can find itself taking significant damage from Infernape depending on what it switches into. Grass Knot from the special set does 75.9% - 89.5%, so even a small amount of risidual damage could mean Starmie's demise. If it takes the time to recover, it leaves itself at the mercy of pokemon like ScarfTyranitar and Scizor who can take the chance to switch in. Ultimately, Starmie's weaknesses to Pursuit and U-Turn from Infernapes Team (or even Infernape's U-Turn), make it only a temporary wall to infernape at the VERY best. But, even with all those issues as an Infernape counter, Starmie is probably still the most solid Infernape counter . . . which I think speaks more for Infernape's awesomeness than Starmie.

Nothing on this list can really counter infernape multiple times, and because infernape lacks SR weak (and resists pursuit/u-turn for that matter), you pretty much HAVE to counter it multiple times a battle.

Before anyone bitches about me talking about multiple sets, Mixnape physical and special are both standard sets, and are more similar to each other than Mence's DD and Mixed sets that people keep bitching about being unpredictable. So yeah, don't go there.

Sorry this post is mostly about infernape, but the list of checks mentioned to nape should seriously be examined if you really think nape has solid counters and want to use that for argument.


ULTIMATELY-- a pokemon doesn't need solid counters to be OU. That's the bottom line, and the argument the pro-Uber side will have to find its way around.

This is a post I made before about infernape. If you look over the numbers, you can clearly see that Infernape "muscles through" all these checks/counters with nothing but brute force-- and again, with only 2 sets, MixSpecial and MixPhysical-- which are even more similar to each other than Mixmence and DD mence. And again, only using their standard moves-- FB/CC/GK/HPI on special and OH/CC/SE on physical.

All except Starmie, but then Starmie is to Infernape the same as Scarf Heatran is to Salamence. Outspeeding, taking on all attacks (and resisting STAB) but the non-stab earthquake and being able to kill with HP Ice (or Dragon Pulse assuming mence suffered Stealth Rock). If it gets in on Fire Blast, it can probably just kill with its own fire blast.

On one hand, Heatran is is a choice pokemon which is annoying, but on the other, Starmie is Pursuit and U-Turn weak which in my opinion is an even bigger issue for a pokemon "meant to counter." Starmie (who is a lot frailer than most OU steel types) doesn't like taking STAB CC's and FB's to the face any more than steels like taking on Draco Meteors either.

You still haven't answered the point that in early DP, things were unpredictable to the point where nothing had counters and that with a new gen, the "countering" mentality is going to be even more ridiculous.

Ultimately, in competitive pokemon, you are not entitled to be able to counter everything. There has to be a degree of "beat them before they beat you" in order to succeed. Frankly, even defensive pokemon like Skarmory and Swampert are good at that strategy.

 

[Elevator Music]

Sorry, I'm not back-and-forthing or anything but I just wanted to interject:

First off, you're missing one of the big points about the list that on mence's end, it too doesn't know what the enemy is running. Part of the meaning of that list is that those pokemon represent the possible danger of those moves-- even if it doesn't have them. Which is why mence has to be weary, just like the other party has to be weary of mence.

Possible danger really seems like a joke. If I know that only like 9% of Gliscor are running Ice Fang (and I do), I'm going to switch in my Salamence every time, especially since I get more than likely a free DD or get to launch a free attack or god-knows-what. You can't compare how "weary" Mence has to be switching in to how "weary" the opposing party has to be when Mence has just come in for free. They are entirely different in magnitude.

This applies almost equally to a bunch of other pokemon that were pointed out, like Vaporeon, Hippowdon, Roserade, and even Skarmory, Celebi, Breloom, etc.

Anyways you've said/alluded to this before, although I didn't quote it, but just because a pokemon CAN threaten Mence out of setting up doesn't mean it WILL or even that it SHOULD. Since pokemon obviously isn't a 1 vs. 1 game, choosing your "death fodder" isn't as easy as "sac whatever is out or something weakened" (of course this is over simplified and you already know this but...). I'm not going to sac my Lucario against the Mence that came in on me if I know it's still key to taking down the rest of his team. I'm not going to sac that 20% poisoned Suicune if I know it has to Rest up later against whatever to win the game. Sometimes you have to switch out, and then dealing with Salamence isn't so easy. Of course, this is applicable to other pokemon as well, but in general it's not a great argument to use because it's oversimplifying the game too much...

Second, what's your point? There's no way to have counters for every set of everything. If your gliscor is having 4 slot syndrom, that's because there's a lot of shit that gliscor could potentially do! No, you are not entitled to being able to counter everything, and you're especially not entitled to win every potential match up that may turn out bad because the opponent had the balls to run a non-standard set.

However your argument about 4MSS being a result of unpredictability is weakened by noting that usage of Gliscor is incredibly predictable (again this is applied to other pokemon as well, though maybe not as well). It's shown statistically as either a lead or a Taunt+Toxic variant. Yeah I *could* be running Thunder Fang or Stone Edge to hit Gyarados switchins, but I'm probably not, and the other player knows this. And maybe when I do lose my Gyara vs Gliscor matchup like 1% of the time I'll be a little upset, but I'll also note that it probably won't happen again for another two months, and I will definitely keep switching Gyara in on Gliscor.

(I may have misinterpreted your argument though on this quote.)

EDIT- I was going to briefly talk about the whole Ape thing, but then I thought it was kinda buried in the posts and irrelevant, but I guess it's not.

You've been stating that Salamence has a hard time getting on the field. Infernape has a much, much harder time despite being not SR-weak, thanks to lack of Intimidate, frailer defenses, and crappier (IMO at least, I guess this is debatable though irrelevant) resistances. Yeah, it's arguably even more deadly than Salamence is once on the field, and there is a little more leeway in terms of stuff you can set up on (really only a little though), but my one biggest complaint about all Infernape sets is difficulty switching it in.

You'd think this wouldn't matter much, definitely not directly towards a pokemon's ability to bust through teams, but it does because Infernape doesn't get quite as many opportunities to do so, which counteracts what would be its ability to do so multiple times. (It's also a little bit easier to switch into Infernape, albeit not much).


I don't really have an opinion on Salamence's tiering status, but I guess I like the suspect metagame better with my limited experience in playing in it. Too bad I don't really have a chance to play it or shoddy at all right now.

 

[OU_Name]

Lol @ people thinking TTar isn't a counter because of Ho-oh using EQ.

Yeah, it's just going to randomly decide to use EQ when it's at 50% from SR and weakening itself to 40% instead of using Roost. And it's going to weaken itself to 40% by using EQ, when it has the option of choosing to use one of its STABs. Great logic there. Not to mention that it actually can't OHKO TTar with EQ unless it has LO. And this is all assuming that Ho-oh actually has EQ instead of Sub or a completely different set. Wow, TTar sure is just an unreliable check to Ho-oh am i right gaiz???? And lol @ thinking a Burned TTar can't OHKO Ho-oh.

edit:

In short:
-Salamence doesn't have the bulk
-Salamence doesn't have that sheer destructive power (it's no slouch, but Sacred Fire coming off base 130 > Outrage / Draco Meteor
-Has checks

Way to describe every single damn pokemon in the game.

inb4 someone whines about me mentioning ho-oh.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Elevator Music, I respect your points but you didn't address the following point I made:

You are certainly not entitled to guaranteed stopping sweeper X, so if you have a pokemon on your team that is setup fodder for sweeper X, and you don't have a means of stopping it from setting up and sweeping you amongst your teammates-- frankly you deserve to get swept.

If Gliscor is such terrific setup fodder for both Salamence and Gyarados, than one of the following must be true:

a) People REALLY shouldn't be using Gliscor
b) Salamence and Gyarados are so unthreatening that letting them setup doesn't matter!
c) People have found ways of dealing with Salamence and Gyarados switch-ins well enough that they feel justified in playing Gliscor

A and B seem pretty ridiculous (as gliscor is popular and salamence/gyarados are threatening), so the answer must be C.

In any case, my point about sweepers, setup fodder, and team synergy still stands.

Going back to the list, you can look at it all day and point out a few holes (I even mentioned there are a few holes myself) but a few holes doesn't change the point that the vast majority of OU pokes carry something (usually a very good move for them) that mence does not want to switch in on.

 

[Baldafor]

Let's look at a list of OU pokemon:

Let's check and see which of these options are used, and their chance of working to stop DD Mence from setting up

Aerodactyl Stone Edge 33.5% Stone Edge, misses 20%, Rock Slide 57.3% misses 10%
Azelf Psychic, Explosion Psychic 50.7%, Explosion 70.7%, probaly
Blissey Thunder Wave, Toxic, Ice beam Twave 40%, Toxic doesn't stop it, Ice Beam 19.5%, probably 60% chance to stop it overall
Breloom Spore, Stone Edge, heck, even Focus Punch No Salamence will setup on a Breloom, this is trolling I say
Bronzong Gyro Ball, Explosion 100%, good job
Celebi Thunder Wave 43.5%
Dragonite lol Lead Extremespeed doesn't OHKO after 2 Life Orb recoils
Dusknoir Ice Punch 27.7%
Electivire Ice Punch, Thunderbolt Electivire... is this a joke now?

I don't wanna go through the whole list anymore, but at least half of these just don't work, and some of the rest you even say LOL to, so why did you even post this?

I agree that tons of things are fodder that can threaten it or force an Outrage. That's a given. But, the same could be said and done for any other pokemon. This doesn't really make Salamence any different than Infernape for example.

Electivire? Really? Isn't that a joke in your signature? You would consider using Electivire competitively? And as fodder against Salamence?

 

[Elevator Music]

eek I said I wouldn't do this but

@Chou: it could also be option D) No matter what 4 moves you run you will be open to SOMETHING, and while it would seem like a good idea to run a move on each of your 6 pokemon that can beat Salamence it's not because it leaves your whole team open to threat XYZ (probably the reason you had Gliscor in the first place).

I think C is a valid point though, and I think there are aspects of this game that we can't verbalize via theorymon. C probably sums them up.

@Baldafor: Chou just listed each OU pokemon.

 

[Chou Toshio]

The "lols" were on pokemon whose STAB is threatening to mence. Remeber, this isn't a list of pokemon who beat mence, it's a list showing nothing is helpless against mence (ie. your point about dragonite is irrelevant).

And Electivire is just one more poke on the list. I even left Umbreon in on the list. Also looks like I forgot W-O-W on Dusknoir, but frankly I don't think he's very competitive either.

It's just the point that there are very few pokemon Salamence can just switch in on without fear and start setting up. Even fewer amongst the OU pokes that are actually good.

Inversely, how many pokemon can Skarm come in on and just start setting up with impunity? Wanna look at Metagross' popularity?

 

[TheValkyries]

@Chou

Oh, yes Infernape is quite powerful, but he simply cannot get through his break through his checks on a consistent basis. You'll notice that he had to hit the right move from the right set to get the upper hand on all of his checks. He also has to rely on two different sets to get past them. Meanwhile, Mence can spam Draco Metoer all day long and give trouble to every single one of his checks except Bronzong. Mence isn't unique to overpowering his checks, but he is unique in the fact that he can consistently do it with only one set.

 

[firecape]

I dont think its fair to say Infernape is free to switch in whenever it likes. Infernape takes damage from every single type of residual damage, and usually runs LO for power. That means every time you switch in, you take 12.5% from SR and 10% from LO thats 22.5% per attack you launch. Not to mention Infernape cant even switch into resistances it is so frail it wont survive more then 1 resisted hit usually. This 22.5% damage per turn isn't even with spikes or the hits it takes switching in. Unless you sacrifice a Pokemon every time you want to get Infernape in, its hardly getting in for free.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Meh, if you think of nape's most reliable checks as Tentacruel, Vappy, and Starmie,

Physical mixnape just needs to spam CC to get the upper hand on the first two (which is what it wants to be doing anyway, as this is its opening move), and Starmie is taking damage from STAB Overheat/Fire Blast/Close Combat comparable to what mence's steel checks would be taking from Draco Meteor/Outrage.

Sure Starmie can recover, but if it does it'll give Tyranitar/Scizor the chance to come in and finish it off.

If Special Mixnape uses Overheat it will be even more impressive. The main reason it doesn't is that it's got the speed (unlike mixmence) to try go for a longer rampage if it uses fire blast. If mence had the option of using a special dragon attack with the same 120 pwr / 85 acc as fire blast, Draco Meteor would probably be less popular (than it is right now).

edit: And it's not free of risidual, but it's relatively better off (compared to salamence). Spikes are rare and take extra turns to set up. SR is pretty much 100% universal and only takes 1 turn. It requires 2 turns of setup to get the same risidual damage against infernape. That is significant.

So just remember that any amount of damage mentioned for infernape, Salamence (who also usually uses LO) will be taking an additional 12.5% on top of that.



Ultimately, the Salamence and Infernape are both unique pokemon and we have to remember to treat them as such. However, the question is measuring power of OU. Frankly, if there is a difference in power between Infernape and Salamence, I don't think it's significant enough that one should be OU and the other Uber.

 

[firecape]

Meh, if you think of nape's most reliable checks as Tentacruel, Vappy, and Starmie,

Physical mixnape just needs to spam CC to get the upper hand on the first two (which is what it wants to be doing anyway, as this is its opening move), and Starmie is taking damage from STAB Overheat/Fire Blast/Close Combat comparable to what mence's steel checks would be taking from Draco Meteor/Outrage. If Special Mixnape uses Overheat it will be even more impressive. The main reason it doesn't is that it's got the speed (unlike mixmence) to try go for a longer rampage if it uses fire blast.

Sure Starmie can recover, but if it does it'll give Tyranitar/Scizor the chance to come in and finish it off.

edit: And it's not free of risidual, but it's relatively better off (compared to salamence). Spikes are rare and take extra turns to set up. SR is pretty much 100% universal and only takes 1 turn. It requires 2 turns of setup to get the same risidual damage against infernape. That is significant.

So just remember that any amount of damage mentioned for infernape, Salamence (who also usually uses LO) will be taking an additional 12.5% on top of that.

Actually, Tentacruel is almost never seen off of a stall team, which almost always run spikes. Vaporeon is more of a middle option, but its not uncommon to see it on a stall team. Lastly, Starmie isnt usually seen in conjunction with spikes, but you have to make something take an LO Hydro Pump more often then not to get Infernape out, which Scizor and Tyranintar dont really like. Also, Mence can switch in and take hits with the help from Intimidate and its immunity to ground, so its a mute point to say that Mence takes more residual damage then Infernape.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@Valk-- Also, you still haven't addressed:

You still haven't answered the point that in early DP, things were unpredictable to the point where nothing had counters and that with a new gen, the "countering" mentality is going to be even more ridiculous.

Ultimately, in competitive pokemon, you are not entitled to be able to counter everything. There has to be a degree of "beat them before they beat you" in order to succeed. Frankly, even defensive pokemon like Skarmory and Swampert are good at that strategy.

@Firecape-- I am having a hard time trying to see what your point is. The fact that there are spikes on teams with tentacruel seems pretty irrelevent.

The issue with tentacruel/starmie/vappy is concerning the issue that infernape can overpower its counters without using non-standard movesets or prediction.

The issue with spikes is concerning salamence v. infernape risidual damage.

You're mixing the two arguments up, as we are debating on 2 separate issues there.

Confusing your arguments makes your overall argument much weaker, and makes the other party question your logic skills.

Also, even if there are spikes on teams with tentacruel, you still have the fact that it takes 2 turns to set up the same risidual damage mence takes with 1 turn of setup-- which is significant. Especially since the more turns you take to setup, the more cost efficient and effective rapid spin becomes as a strategy. Part of the SR weakness dilemna stems from it taking only 1 turn to setup.

Punishing Spikes with rapid spin is a terrific strategy. Punishing SR with rapid spin is . . . well it's barely punishment at all (as they both only take 1 turn to setup).

 

[OU_Name]

Starmie is taking damage from STAB Overheat/Fire Blast/Close Combat comparable to what mence's steel checks would be taking from Draco Meteor/Outrage.

But there's one important difference. Those steels aren't faster than Mence. But Starmie is faster than Infernape.

 

[Chillarmy]

But there's one important difference. Those steels aren't faster than Mence. But Starmie is faster than Infernape.

But they carry either a Choice Scarf or priority to bypass the Speed gap. Despite that, most Steel-types usually switch in after Mence locks itself into an Outrage, or when Draco Meteor is very obvious so they can force it out/KO it with little to no effort. Really, why would you switch Jirachi into DDMence when it has a shakey chance of winning? Hell, I'd rather scrap my Swampert and force Mence to trap itself rather than allowing it to rampage on the rest of my team.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I brought up scarf heatran as being in a similar situation in relation to salamence as starmie is to infernape.

Scarf Heatran / Starmie v. Infernape/Salamence
-Both outspeed the mixsweeper
-Both resist all STAB and only fear 1 non-STAB attack on the enemy (unless ev'd defensively, Starmie can be 1hko'd by Grass Knot after SR, it takes massive damage from Grass Knot regardless)

Scarfran Pros:
-If it comes in on Fire Blast, it will get boosted terrifically and can use Fire Blast instead.
-Better overall bulk

Scarfran Cons:
-It's a choiced pokemon
-Trappable by Magnezone (unless using Fire Blast)

Starmie Pros:
-Non choiced
-Can recover

Cons:
-It's trappable by Tyranitar and Scizor
-Tyranitar and Scizor are much more popular pokemon than Magnezone


Keep in mind that Starmie cannot be bulky and powerful at the same time. If it is LO and powerful, it will be taking huge damage from Infernape's STAB moves and can be more easily worn out, or outright killed by grass knot (which nape might get the chance to predict into without his SR weak). If Starmie is bulky, than it's not handling Scizor/Tyranitar nearly as well.

Also keep in mind that even if you think of Starmie as an end-all counter to Infernape (most people find it way too flimsy to fill Latias' role), that's just 1 out of 50 or so OU pokemon.

Having 1 (rather flimsy) counter v. having 0 counters seems like an irrelevant difference to me in looking for a wall breaker.

In any case, it's not a great counter if it's taking so much damage from a move run standard just for coverage on one of infernape's main sets . . .

 

[WarriorPrince]

For the vast majority of posts, the same ideas have been restated. A thread of restated and recycled powerful arguments. Both sides have shown great reasoning [for the most, you can't go too wrong when you quote the quality posters]. Sure, these arguments are indeed valid, but the validity decreases with continued rebuttal. Repeating something that has already been addressed does not contribute much to anything, for either side.

I don't see much else that can be discussed about Salamence, simply because everything has been covered. I'm 100% sure that what I am about to say has been previously stated. Since this thread is still open, restated arguments are the only things left to be said.

Sure, Salamence contributes to centralization of the metagame, but he also keeps stall in check [to an extent] and help stabalize the metagame.

Salamence could definitely be considered Uber because of the Offensive Charateristic, but does he sweep through teams on a consist basis, under normal battle conditions??
On paper, Salamence could indeed do this; however, can he do this realistically??
Slealth Rock, Life Orb, priority attacks, and his own two edged sword [Outrage] can be the downfall of him. Draco Meteor also necessitates switching. Under the right circumstances, however, Salamence is damn near unstoppable.

I think this could go either way, and either decision is understandable. And the big question, do our post really even have any effect, what so ever, on the final vote??

 

[Chou Toshio]

^probably not. And then the vote itself doesn't even have relevance to 5th gen tiering. If you're not arguing in here half-way out of the fun of it, I don't know what you're doing here. lol

Presumably if you're spending a significant part of your life planning teams, playing battles or doing discussion for Pokemon, you're doing it because it's fun. I think I saw a signature somewhere that said something along the lines of "I like to argue about pokemon, and play it sometimes too."

 

[OU_Name]

My bad, I forgot about Scarf and priority moves. But all of them, even Scizor the priority user become choiced though. And as soon as they use their Mence killing move (Dragon Pulse, Ice Punch, Bullet Punch, etc.) they'll become easy targets for Magnezone, assuming that Mence used Draco Meteor and not Outrage. Yes, if Mence comes back he'll be back in at 40%, but you'll lose your steel counter.

So you essentially get Mence to 40% at the cost of one of your pokemon.

 

[TheValkyries]

@ChouToshio Oh right, I saw that in the last post, and meant to answer it, but it slipped my mind.


Yes, 5th gen is just around the corner, and countering will seem completely ludicrous, but again this is not due to the fact that everything is that much more powerful, but rather more to the fact that everythings completely unpredictable and could be likely to run upwards of 8 different sets. But as things balance out, counters will emerge, as they have in this Gen. Frankly there's 493 pokemon in 4th gen alone, and with all the new ones coming I'm pretty confident that there will be some new defensive powerhouses on the block as well, and that countering will still be around.

However, 5th gen is still months away, and even after release it will be at least a few months before Shoddy is updated, so tiering Mence now is still very relevant. Even if I'm completely wrong, and every pokemon in 5th Gen is an amazing set-up sweeper, and the idea of counters is completely blown apart, it doesn't mean a damn thing. If Mence is too powerful for OU now, then he's too powerful for OU. It's as simple as that. If that means we ban him now and then immediately re-tier him to OU again in Gen 5, then so be it. Gen 4 =/= Gen 5. The oncoming approach of Gen 5 should bear no weight while considering the tiering of Mence for Gen 4.


EDIT: As per the difference between Mence's power and Nape's power, I could argue, but I feel that the argument would be a moot point, with neither of us convincing each other, so I'll just agree to disagree... for now.