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The Greatest Playstyle

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by hilarious, Apr 29, 2012.

  1. hilarious

    hilarious

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    The purpose of this thread is to convince anyone who plays UU to play more stall or prepare for stall because it will get you more wins. The reason this is not posted in the megathread is because this is a bit lengthy (please respond to what you read only) and the rules say I am allowed to make threads on major threats. Stall is the majorest of major, it is threat numero uno so I figure I am allowed to make a thread on it...

    Hello I want to inform all of you of a threat it seems not so many of you are preparing for adequately, stall teams. I do not like fancy obscure language, I like to be direct and simple so I will clearly tell you my opinions on stall. Before that I want to make sure we all know what we are talking about; Pokemon is very linear when it comes to team building. You can make either defensive teams on the right or slowly creep to the left making your team more and more offensive until you have something resembling a hyper offensive team. So there are two polar opposites: full stall where you defend and chip away at health and try to set up conditions favorable to you to the point where you can just halt your opponent for the win by endgame, and then hyper offensive where you try to grab momentum and set up immediately to smash your opponent for a quick win. Everything else falls in between, except arguably Baton Pass and hax teams which I will not be referencing to.

    First I want to show you a little of the face of stall in UU. Both these Pokemon are all common on stall and contribute to the greater image of stall itself, unlike offensive teams stall will not function properly if a member is wasted. These Pokemon therefore function best on stall teams.

    [​IMG]
    Show Hide
    There is no Chansey in UU so you can imagine how that badly affect stall, as well as positively affected Umbreon. Stall teams are strapped for spots. They need more roles than any other teams including but not limited to special walls/tanks, physical walls/tanks, hazard setter (at least SR and Spikes), phazers, clerics (usually), Wish users (usually), Ghost type, and revenge killer (sometimes). The only possible way to fit those roles on a 6 member team is for members to double or triple up on those roles, Umbreon is the best Wish user in UU and the best cleric. It walls special moves that Togekiss cannot because it has no common special weaknesses bar Bug Buzz and Focus Blast. It is the new UU Chansey that happens to beat Mismagius too.


    [​IMG]
    Show Hide
    Sableye is clearly not useful only on stall teams, but it is by far the best Ghost for a typical stall team to use. Since full stall always abuses hazards, it makes sense it always needs a Ghost to keep those hazards up. Sableye doubles up as a stall saver, common strategies people use to break stall like Taunt+set up no longer effectively breaks up stall with Sableye's priority burn and Taunt. Other spin blockers are usually too frail or are bypassed too easily with Foresight.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Why is stall then the best playstyle? Certainly it is an arrogant point to hold, that just one playstyle is the best. But in fact it is also true for because stall inherently has a better match up against most teams except the rare hyper offensive team.

    This is for a couple reasons. One is that against a stall team, at least one of your Pokemon are going to be near useless for most if not all of the battle. Consider the scenario if you have a defensive P2 against a stall team. Stall teams will be attacking you indirectly, something your P2 cannot directly wall. Therefore everytime your P2 comes in its going to be set up on/crippled/ignored because it can't do enough damage. Every single one of your passive defensive Pokemon will have a significantly diminished role, perhaps even a negative role because it becomes a free turn for the stall player. This is the biggest advantage a stall user has.

    The second advantage is its reliability. Good stall teams prepare for all relevant major threats and they prepare for them well. Its not like an offensive team where you say you have Darmantian covered because you have a Scarfgon (if you're revenging in general you are playing a losing game). It is saying that you have Darmantian covered because you have a Slowbro on your team. A fairly obvious problem comes up then, hax. Hax will affect you more if you use slow paced teams because your opponent gets more hits in, increasing the chance for some game changing move to come in. However in my opinion that is pretty much mitigated if you weigh in the benefits of having a solid counter to the major threats. Another problem arises from this, if you are using a stall team but you meet some random threat like Curse Cradily that 6-0s (not with Sableye though), you essentially have no way to win. This does not matter in the grand scheme of things because they are extremely rare, especially higher on the ladder which your stall team will bring you to.

    UU teams at the moment are not strong enough to break through stall teams. Sure everyone has a Choice Bander maybe or a LO Darmantian but until they double up on those threats they aren't able to power through stall reliably. If none of my arguments convinced you, then consider this. There are Pokemon on some teams dedicated just to breaking stall (stall breakers). No other playstyle has become dominant enough to the point where their very use has added an extremely word to our Pokemon dictionaries to try and balance out that style with the very name of that style in it.
  2. papita

    papita

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    You are comparing poorly made offensive teams. Offensive teams must have a solid response to common threats as well. Stall is effective, that´s a no brainer, but can also be stopped and it´s not the only way to be effective
  3. tehy

    tehy

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    The down-side to stall is Cm clus, Cm sigilyph, curse suction cups cradily, although sableye does deal with those.
  4. Psychotic

    Psychotic Foulest thing about time; it still ticks when you gone

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    @tehy: No, those are extremely uncommon threats that no good player in their right mind would ever use, most weak to hazards, and all easily phazed, hazed, or taunted before they can do any damage.

    The most relevant threats to stall are:
    1. Stallbreakers, who can Taunt walls to prevent setup or recovery. There are always ways to get around this though. The real threat to stall teams comes from...
    2. The element of surprise. This in my eyes is what makes stall an inferior playstyle. Any good offensive player will have AT LEAST one uncommon or unconventional set per team to take out would-be counters and allow itself or a teammate to sweep. Since stall teams rely so much on each team member to switch in to certain threats to function corrrectly, this can be fatal. I don't care how good you are, you will always fall to things like HP Grass Raikou and HP Ice Cobalion if you hadn't seen the set before, you still will switch in your Swampert or Gligar, respectively.

    My point is while this type of playstyle might work on the ladder because you have learned the sets of your opponents, in tournaments you will get utterly destroyed because you are bound to lose one of your pokes when the opponent finally reveals his surprise, and it is nearly impossible to recover from.

    Oh and also Nasty Plot Togekiss destroys every single stall team in UU, period. If you want to break stall 100% of the time, slap a Togekiss on your team and you are good to go.
  5. tehy

    tehy

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    So two magic guard users are weak to hazards? Good to know.

    I meant CP sigilyph, and those sweepers ARE stallbreakers, by virtue of only being stopped by taunt, or strong attacks.
    As for surprise, you'd be surprised how often people have only standard sets. In tournies, there might be surprises, but this can also be true on offense.

    And i wall raikou with specially defensive hippowdon and cobalion with sableye. Surprises don't always work, because if they did they wouldn't be surprising. As a stall user, i can be caught off guard in crucial situations and thus be finished, but again, this isn't necessarily restricted to stall teams alone. It's somewhat more problematic, but that's what a good mixed-wall or protect is for.
  6. hilarious

    hilarious

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    I am not, and even if I was, if you played the UU ladder you would know poorly made offensive teams make a large chunk of the ladder. If you think that stall isn't the best strategy, tell why because I already gave my thoughts on why it is the very best.

    The only way a player can break good stall teams (bar hax) are a combo of:

    1. Making good guesses and double switches
    2. Having a pokemon that sets up a win conditions against the opponent stall team (e.g. Curse Cradily). This basically means a good team match up.

    This is true because stall will be able to counter all of your Pokemon. The stall team doesn't have to do much in terms of guessing, all it has to to is not die which should be easily managed as long it can keep on countering and keep on waiting for your opponent to die. Stall requires your opponent to be good player while apart from teambuilding it requires little from you.

    I don't even play tournies, so I can't really say anything about that.

    Nasty Plot Togekiss might kill MY stall team (as you very well know lol) but it would be very stupid to say my stall team is the only one that can work. Why not just slap on a specially defensive Zapdos to cure your Togekiss weaknesses? Or add in a Weavile, which functions a bit like Scarftar in OU stall teams last gen?

    CP sigilyph is easily phazed out unless you are stupid enough to let it set up on you. Also Sableye screws it over (as you mentioned) which you will be seeing as the hottest stall spinblocker.

    I believe PsYch071c is saying surprises are common in tournies and they are more crippling to stall teams than offensive ones. Once again, I don't play tournies so I don't know.

    Hippowdon isn't legal in UU.

    My thing about using surprises on the ladder is that its only going to work once or twice until you recognize the surprise or play (even more) conservatively to guard against said surprise. The only way they will consistently work if people are more innovative, for lack of a better term, and can think of more viable tricks. Seeing the ladder in the shape that it is in, I do not see that happening.
  7. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    I would be very hesitant to run a stall team in a tier where powerful attackers like SD Heracross, NP/SD Mew, NP Togekiss, CM LO Raikou, and CB Flygon exist.
  8. jamashawalker

    jamashawalker

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    I would like to know what do u think of a standard stall team or just a good stall team? Because of what flare just said, there are way more threats to stall then just those.
  9. hilarious

    hilarious

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    You know, I was too. But a wise man once said something to the effect of," As beautiful as any theory is, one should occasionally look at the results."

    I quote this because I have run many successful stall teams on the ladder when these threats were still here. I think this is why I was successful.

    If you are running lots of set up sweepers that boost their offenses then of course you will do well against defensive teams, but you struggle against bulky offense and very fast teams. That isn't a huge problem though seeing as you have six slots for a team, so you can allocate maybe a spot for that boosting attacker. But if you only run one, chances are you are not going to be able to break apart any competent defensive core so you need to run another attacker. At that point you're just trading one weakness for another so the best option is going to invest in a single slot very heavily. A generic example would be say using a Choice Specs Kingdra with lots of support with say Magneton, Spikes, paralysis support and a lure for Milotic. At that point you're betting for Kingdra to seize the day for you.

    Why does stall have an advantage still? Because you are betting heavily on Kingdra to get a win, or at least to seize enough material to secure a win. By virtue of team preview, it becomes obvious what your opponent's main stall breaker is, so as long as you make sure you are able to check or counter it, you should be set.


    I think a standard stall team should be a good stall team because what is standard should be good. That's wishful thinking more than anything because the ladder is not very good at all.

    If you're asking how a standard stall team could possibly deal with those threats and not be down by an excessive amount of material, I think we should look in the purpose of stall itself. Everyone knows we want to chip away health slowly with good defenses but there's a reason why using a Toxic+Rest Shuckle is probably a bad idea. The purpose of any ladder team is to win, period the end. To win you must be able to respond to threats in the metagame, period the end. CB Flygon, CM Raikou, LO Darmantian, Specs this and that, Band this and that, SD this and that, Nasty Plot this and that are all threats in the metagame, period the end. If a stall team cannot adapt to the metagame then it loses so it does not fufill its purposes; I no longer even recognize that stall team as a legitimate team. Then you get into itty bitty details, like how many wins are enough or can this be considered a threat? That's beyond the point. What I am saying is if a stall team isn't defensive enough or malleable enough to get a good amount of wins, then it ceases being any type of team whatsoever, it becomes a paper tiger, outwardly intimidating but easily blown away.

    I hope I answered your question.
  10. jamashawalker

    jamashawalker

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    What Im actually asking is what 6 pokemon can be used to make a good stall team? Cause you say your team is doing well, so what are your 6 pokemon?

    I dont believe stall to be superior because past generation Gallade single handily made stall an unviable playstyle. Which led to it being banned. This gen we gained way more offensive pokes that put gallade in lower tiers and we didnt gain that many defensive pokes. Eviolite is a huge plus, Defensive Zapdos, Snorlax, Empoleon, Togekiss, Suicune are also a plus. But when we look at how many offensive pokes there are, the power shift is crazy. You know so many stall teams are surprisingly weak to Nasty Plot Mismagius
  11. hilarious

    hilarious

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    I am currently using this team

    Show Hide
    Claydol @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stealth Rock
    - Toxic
    - Earth Power

    Umbreon (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Payback
    - Heal Bell
    - Wish
    - Protect

    Milotic (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Marvel Scale
    EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 64 SDef / 12 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Recover
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Dragon Tail

    Arcanine (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 16 SDef / 8 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Roar
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Flare Blitz
    - Morning Sun

    Roserade (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 136 SDef / 8 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Giga Drain
    - Spikes
    - Rest

    Sableye (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 136 SDef / 16 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Foul Play


    I am still on the ladder with it despite me posting an RMT about it months (or weeks I forget) back, I don't really see people counter teaming me and I think its fun to see how a team can evolve with metagame shifts. I've been on the top of the ladder for the past couple weeks (and several times for the past months) by more than just a few points.

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]


    I think it would be foolish to dismiss my rating because excuses like "all the good people stopped playing" or "his stall is a passing fad". They have not, it is not. I know the ladder is not in great shape and I know it is relatively easy to maintain a high rating once you get it. Yet the fact still stands, if the whole point of playing on the ladder is to get a good win ratio, a good rating, a consistent team, then my team is very very very good (not even kidding). It only can do that because it is stall.

    Lots of you have brought up the point there are more powerful attackers compared to defender in UU. While this is true for the most part, you have to realize a couple things. First, you aren't pitting your team against the whole of UU every battle, you only have to play six. There is no such thing as a team of six sweepers because a team of six sweepers cannot give you consistent wins (I think we can agree on this) which is as I have said before the whole purpose of a team. You might have to play against three, maybe four attackers at most. Then realize that nearly all teams are going to split their offenses because it is too risky to attack from one side (e.g. physical). Lastly realize that all forms of offense bar the heaviest rely on a back up revenge killer. Although it would be foolish to completely dismiss the threat, you know its probably going to be a scarfer with offenses that simply cannot find a chink in the armor of stall unless the stall team is down in too much material (the battle is lost already here).

    The fact that your opponent cannot just relentlessly put up an offensive after offensive is nice, but what are the implications of this? Before we go there we have to realize the build up of a stall team. The primary difference between the compositions of stall and offense (bar the obvious) is that stall can rely on a team consisting purely of defenders, anywhere from five to even all six (my team uses six). A revenge killer may occupy the sixth slot especially as it gives you some security and a neat anti-Xatu play. Umbreon is almost guaranteed a spot on the stall team because it functions just like Chansey except with less bulk. Lickilicky, Miltank and Clefable (and Audino I guess) are generally inferior because lack of bulk although they all handle Yanmega better. I tried all but Audino, I speak from experience. Obviously the question is can you make a stall team without Chansey-like Pokemon (high special bulk, cleric, wish) in our metagame and I think the answer is yes but why would you? It fills so many purposes its ridiculous countering Nidoking, Zapdos (usually), Raikou (usually), bulky Waters, completely destroying NP Mismagius, etc. Cleric and Wish make stall teams live longer and extend your chance of winning (the longer it drags on, the better chance you have to win usually). Umbreon is almost a must on stall.

    Sableye too is almost a must because it is the best spinblocker, thast all there is too it and I don't want to bore you.

    We know stall teams can dedicate the rest of the slots to defenders, especially those who abuse hazards. We know the composition of stall now. If an your opponent starts an offensive, realize that once it peters out one of their chances to win is gone. If they have three one time sweepers for instance then they only have three chances to win against stall. That is just not enough against most competent stall teams which led me to the conclusion I think I stated in posts above, offensive teams must guess well of have good match ups. As long as stall teams can have so many more walls and tanks than offensive teams, offensive teams will forever have a poor match up against stall.
  12. Classical

    Classical

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    What about stall breaker mew? Just taunt sabeleye on the switch. Burn the whole team and roost off any damage. Sab may wall it if you don't burn, but switch out.
  13. hilarious

    hilarious

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    Stallbreaker Mew sucks. Personally I think NP Mew is more of a stallbreaker than it.

    You just demonstrated stall is powerful enough for a team to dedicate a slot just to beat down on it.

    Sableye beats it, Toxic Spikes beats it, Umbreon can synchronize it. Of course it can switch out but you can always use your cleric powers.

    You can use something immune to burns I guess (e.g. defensive Arcanine) and keep on attacking it.
  14. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Your team has obviously been successful, and I congratulate you on that. However, as I mentioned earlier, I am curious just how you managed to be successful when so many threats seem to destroy stall with relative ease in the tier.

    I have 4 different teams. Note that I didn't even consider stall as a threat while making these teams because...well, in my opinion, stall is not very threatening at all right now. Regardless, I managed to fit in at least one Pokemon on each team that, just by itself, severely threatens your entire team.

    Team 1: CB Flygon, LO SubSeed Shaymin. CB Flygon comes in unscatched on half your team, and 2hkos the entirety of it with CB Outrage.
    LO SubSeed Shaymin can come in for free on the entire team besides Roserade. LO Air Slash, my coverage move, 2hkos your Roserade set and ohkos with a Seed Flare SpD drop. Arcanine can switch in and Roar, but by doing so it heals one of my teammates for free while taking substantial damage from hazards and leech seed.

    Team 2: NP Togekiss, SubBulk Machamp. I am sure you are aware of your Togekiss problems by now, so I won't say anything about that. Machamp is an odd threat, but a threat it is - Arcanine is the only thing on your team capable of stopping it, and it has a 50% chance of losing outright if it comes in on a sub (DynamicPunch -> Stone Edge or Bulk Up). Not to mention WoW's shit accuracy. You might say "Claydol can stop it!" but you would be wrong, as Claydol fails to break 252/0 Machamp's substitutes due to being a gigantic pussy, letting it get up to +3 and grab the 2hko with DynamicPunch.

    Team 3: SD Heracross. Not much to say about Heracross, runs through your team.

    Team 4: NP Mew. Again, not much to say about NP Mew. Psyshock, Fire Blast, Aura Sphere with a Life Orb causes major issues.

    Note that all of these are more than viable against offense and bulky offense. They are not dedicated anti-stall Pokemon at all. There are simply too many threats to cover in the UU metagame and, unlike in the OU metagame, the defensive threats are simply too inferior, statistically and movepool-wise.
  15. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Sry for nitpicking, but WoW has perfect accuracy vs Machamp (No Guard).

    Very interesting thread btw!
  16. hilarious

    hilarious

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    Maybe its because I am an extremely conservative player taking absolutely no risks if I can (e.g. if they lead with Gligar then I assume its an SD Baton Passer if I get any hint of it via team preview of otherwise, and off to Milotic I go, not Claydol to set up Rocks.) As a member of this community I would label myself very liberal though, ban that Sand Veil guys.

    I'm going to respond to every one of your teams since that seems to be the most direct way to answer (other than playing you on the ladder sometime later eh? :))

    CB Flygon is a major threat. I can't really touch it with hazards nor can I tank its moves very well, with Arcanine being the only member not being 2HKO by Outrage (unless Rocks and Sand are up or I don't get in an Intimidate or they have Rocks and Adamant). I have to keep in mind EQ does a huge hit on Arcanine, possibly KOing if they run Adamant and Rocks. Aside from the fact that Adamant is rare, what could I possibly do? Well battling is really two parts, team building and execution. Obviously I cannot fix my team in the middle of the battle so I have to rely solely on my (very good) skill to weave around Flygon. I don't let it get openings and if I do then I don't sack necessary Pokemon. Flygon can only come in reliably on Roserade and Claydol, because the rest of the team can either burn it (Arcanine, Sableye), KO it (Milotic) or stall it to confusion (Umbreon). Claydol is not much of a problem because it serves a very specific purpose on the team, if it can set up hazards and then Toxic Flygon and maybe even get a spin off if I am lucky then I am good to go. I don't care if Claydol dies. Roserade on the other hand I rather keep it alive for long to set up hazards, which is a stall team's main source of damage output. Therefore I have to play conservatively with it but if I even get one layer of Spikes that can be powerful enough to win me a game. The first layer of Spikes is by far the most important in case you didn't know, I bet most of you didn't even notice the generation change for Spikes. Last generation it did 12.5%, 18.75% and 25% for one, two and three layers respectively. Now it does 12.5, 16.7% and 25% for the same amount of layers. It is significant because the first turn I use it gives me an extra 12.5% compared to the second turn where I get a measly extra 4.2% (that's rounded up too) The third layer is obviously the second most important but if I manage to get that many up its usually pretty clear if I won or lost, not to mention its extremely difficult to consistently get three layers. Thus there will be plenty of games where a single layer of Spikes wins me a battle but far fewer than those where two layers of Spikes wins me a battle. CB Flygon alone will at best prevent me from getting two up which as I just demonstarted is not an extreme problem. LO Shaymin has simply not been a threat, it gives me an almost free Umbreon switch in where I can Wish pass and heal my team of status. SpD drops are of course troubling but realize that Seed Flare has a very limited PP further limited by Protect and me pivoting to Roserade to take a Seed Flare. Its just not opening up a hole in the armor.

    I already said NP Togekiss destroys me (but I'm working on it!) as you have demonstrated on ladder battles with me on more than one occasion. I do remember taking in a win against your team with Togekiss once because Arcanine burned it and outspeed it and Togekiss was on low enough health from residual damage (Rocks and burn) that Arcanine could outspeed and KO you at like 40%. Machamp is just not scary to face, I go to Arcanine which takes like 40% at most maybe from Stone Edge after an Intmidate and leftovers. After that it cannot hurt Claydol too much without a couple boosts which gives me ample time to set up Rocks and abuse Intimidate again or go to Sableye to take your STAB. I've never been swept by a Machamp of any kind and I don't think Machamp has ever caused me to lose enough material to lose a game.

    SD Heracross is a problem although you don't specify which variant (Leftovers, Flame or Toxic Orb, Life Orb even). Leftovers is a problem but a +1 Adamant Stone Edge will not not KO Arcanine after Rocks. Life Orb I'd say is the biggest problem but I usually go straight to Arcanine and then to Claydol to take Stone Edge or Close Combat then back to Arcanine where I can tank a Megahorn easily. Stealth Rocks hurts this strategy. Even with a Life Orb though Arcanine will not be OHKO'd by any +1 LO move Heracross has to offer after Rocks. Flame Orb is like Toxic Orb that lives longer against my team and with Adamant it can very well KO my Arcanine with Close Combat if it gets a decent damage roll, pivoting and using Protect with Umbreon is my best hope. Two things make Heracross better to deal with though, the fact they are rarely SD variants and the fact that I can usually pivot around them.

    If I ever see Mew I make getting Toxic Spikes down a priority if I see no grounded Poisons. Its pretty obvious from lack of Leftovers they are offensive so I don't go wishy washy on it, I try to status it ASAP. Arcanine is actually my first switch in to Mew because it can absorb a burn, beat SD sets, phaze Baton Pass (in theory, I've never seen one actually) and tank a single NP boosted move while phazing it out. I really don't like facing Mew because they are so versatile but Umbreon is immune to its STAB which is nice as a boosted Aura Sphere isn't about to OHKO me.

    This might have been a bit text heavy but it kind of had to be to get my point across, I hope I answered your question.
    Thank you.
  17. Psychotic

    Psychotic Foulest thing about time; it still ticks when you gone

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    To almost reach 1600 is definitely an awesome achievement, hope you make it all the way. Anyway, in my last post I also neglected to mention another reason I don't use stall: the luck factor. Games with a stall team are bound to last longer and take more turns, and these extra turns often can lead to untimely crits that no stall team can afford. In most games hax even out more or less between the two teams, but stall uses passive damage where luck never comes into play. The longer a game lasts, the more chance for the game to give the win to your opponent, no matter how skilled he is. This is multiplied by the fact that your main status move has an accuracy of 75%, and a miss, especially with a relatively frail mon such as Sableye, can be very costly. Offensive teams can often bounce back from losing a team member, but defensive teams need every teammate to function. This obviously isn't as big a factor as some of the others, I am just amazed that the luck factor hasn't cost you as many games as I would expect.
  18. jamashawalker

    jamashawalker

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    I see your team, I like your team, and you got to number 1 on the ladder with it. So that is saying something about your team and your playing style. Not to bash your team nor turn this into a RMT, but your team shows the biggest flaws of using stall. Throughout your post you constantly mentioned arcanine as your main defensive pivot. Just from looking at your team and reading your response to flareblitz's pokes, it does look like you have major problems if arcanine is not at 100% health. Your one pokemon is much needed to fill a major defensive role. Without arcanine or if its not at full health, almost any physical offensive poke runs through your team. Thats the biggest downside about stall. One poke is absolutely needed to stop many or else they will be swept with relative ease. Another example would be if someone wanted to use snorlax as their SpDef Tank. With very few options of special walls, Snorlax is one of the next best things. It not only has a huge responsibility on teams, so it must be at top health to stop all major threats.

    Not to troll or be rude, but how the hell has Tinted Lens yanmega not Sweeped through your team just spamming Bug Buzz?! haha have you been lucky enough to not to run into one? It can switch into 4/6 of your team and threaten to KO everyone. Again another offensive poke which stall just cant take unless they are running a snorlax which isnt hard for yanmega to break through
  19. hilarious

    hilarious

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    I touched on luck in my original post (abbreviated to OP I think???) but I didn't really go in depth in it because I hate talking about luck.

    But here goes it anyways; just yesterday I had a rather intense battle that had luck which screwed me over a bit. I was playing against a rain team which notably lacked Kabutops and Qwilfish but had the other usual players, namely Kingdra and Ludicolo. Since they relied on special rain attackers I was pretty confident (not to mention variation was: +2, -30) so I knew I had to keep my special defenders alive. Toxic Spikes would be nice too to stall out even more and break momentum, it would help immensely in gaining a material advantage. So in came Ludicolo I think it was on my Umbreon and I was preparing to Protect Wish stall the Rain out and then seize momentum by striking directly at the attacker, Ludicolo. And you know what, it would have worked had Hydro Pump not gotten a Rain Crit on me which promptly ended by chances of winning. Well thats what should have happened, but I was able to keep Roserade alive and tank a couple moves with Milotic to finally KO Ludicolo but the situation was beyond dire at that point, Kingdra could sweep as they had just forced out my Milotic which was at 40% after Rocks. I was (more than) slightly annoyed because the ladder gets to you, especially if you know you are about to lose 30 points from a crit. Yet when that fateful draco Meteor turn came into play, it did the strangest thing, it missed. If I didn't I would have lost, no questions asked.

    What are the implications of this scenario, which just happened yesterday by the way?

    Offensive teams are just as vulnerable to hax not in the form of crits but in the form of misses. As assuredly as I would have won if they had not critted with Hydro Pump, it was equally true they would have won if they hit me with a Draco Meteor.

    Will-o-Wisp from stall misses too, what about that? Will-o-Wisp nine out of ten times is not used to stop an attacker rather it is used to suprise and cripple something when it comes from Arcanine. I am talking about Rhyperior, Swampert, Milotic switch-ins. Sableye hates misses far more but when I look at what I use it at my fears are put to rest - Flygon isn't about to KO me nor is Cobalion nor Snorlax. I do not rely on Will-o-Wisp to beat most physical attackers, they are just a nice buffer for me to fall back on.

    Thank you

    You bring up a legitimate point through Specs Yanmega and I have been swept by it before more than once. Its one of the reasons why Milotic has extra SpD and why I am considering to give it even more SpD. In exchange for being extraordinarily weak to several Pokemon my team, I think, comfortably handles any threat even if my opponent chooses to double up on it (e.g. CS Darmantian+CB Victini).
  20. .-Lucky

    .-Lucky

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    i Think this post isn't the way it should be. First, because it hurts the pride of offensive players (i'm a balanced attacker and stall sometimes), as you said, it is an arrogant position to hold, the problem is that the level of it is above nine thousand and doesn't let the true intention reach the players ( i figured that my english grammar stinks lol)

    Suggestion: Remake the post and use the title: Props, slops and threats of stall, or something like that.

    Imo, stall is quite good but not invincible, there are sometimes that you just cant win, or you aren't prepaired for specific threats, and that is just too difficult to manage in 6 slots. As offensive is always just revenge-killlling, stalls needs to assume that it CANT be prepaired for everything. So that's an advantage over stall, offensive teams in fact **can**be prepaired for everything, but stall cant, since offensive teams rely on coverage, and stall focuses on resistances.

    I wont be talking about balanced teams, but i like to play those the most just because they are in the middle of these.
  21. hilarious

    hilarious

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    I'm not sure if I understand you. I don't really care about pride or whatever, I'm telling you straight up that stall is the best playstyle in UU and I supported myself with why I think so. If you don't think it is, as I am sure I haven't convinced most people yet, feel free to tell why.

    Yes it is not invincible but against the ladder it will always do the best compared to other types of teams due to consistency and weakness to only uncommon threats. You bring up a good (although not completely valid) point when you claim an offensive is all about revenging. This is not really true, an offensive should be all about setting up attacks and following through with a sweep. If you are tipped to the point of revenge killing, that means you just let your opponent set something up and that means you are playing a losing game. You don't want losing games.

    Being prepared for everything is a tiny if not irrelevant advantage offense has over stall because you will never be facing everything. Passho berry NP Houndoom would massacre my team, period the end. Problem is, nobody uses it to the point where I am going to lose more than one or two battles to it and in the grand scheme of things, when I have probably played at least several hundred battles its not going to make more than a ripple in my pool of victories. If those threats become popular then of course I must adapt, already I am fixing up my team to include Weavile to beat down the increasingly common NP Togekiss.
  22. ScoobyDoom

    ScoobyDoom

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    I agree, stall is pretty much destroyed by the threats flareblitz mentioned
  23. ToF

    ToF
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    Okay lets keep the hyperbole to a minimum here. Stall is not outclassed as a playstyle in tournaments so whoever said that is obviously mistaken. The biggest problem stall teams have is counterteaming, and that's a product of stall players typically being able to only use stall teams in the tier. On the ladder, stall teams are effective simply because a well-crafted team will win 80% of games without much thinking; it's a very easy ladder-cruising style. In tournaments, however, stall players can be at a disadvantage if their opponent knows what kind of team and style you run. Thus, it's more difficult to cruise with stall in tournaments, but if you're a good player and can mix-and-match styles, it limits counterteaming and makes stalling quite the possibility.

    Stall teams will never be able to counter every single threat possible. On the ladder, you can prepare against the most commonly used things and that's why the 80% win percentage is feasible. You get randomly paired with someone and since the UU ladder isn't so great, large winning streaks aren't uncommon. In tournaments, you know who you're playing beforehand and the likelihood of seeing a unique Pokemon as an element of surprise is higher. On the ladder, not so much.

    TL:DR: Stall is a good ladder playstyle, arguably the best for topping ladders and what-not, but in tournaments it's not cruise control and requires much more skill and creativity to use effectively.
  24. hilarious

    hilarious

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    I can't really agree with that last bit there, there can be little creativity for stall teams. All effective stall teams are going to come out of a very limited pool of Pokemon in UU. At the conclusion of that RMT I try to tell why stall works, which it does, and its really because not of huge bulk anymore. If it was, you could be creative using whatever bulky Pokemon you could lay your hands on. This is not so, you have to rely on roles and lots of them. Offensive teams can be creative becaus all they want is a sweep, so they can use random sweepers like Venemoth which isn't UU but still works well. But when you look at trying to get as many roles filled up as you have to in UU you are going to have to resort on the old reliable, Umbreon over Audino for instance.

    Stall allows little room for creativity because there are few creative walls that can still be effective.
  25. ToF

    ToF
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    Creativity is definitely possible when playing stall, and I can say this because I have much more UU stall experience than you across not just BW but also DPP. You can mold things on stall teams to counter certain threats (for example, in DPP people would use the occasional HP Psychic Milotic to counter all versions of Toxicroak, a typical problem for stall teams). Similarly, many people began running specially defensive RestTalk Weezing to handle all forms of Venusaur. In this manner, stall teams can be creative. One spin on BW stall teams is the usual inclusion of a scarfer (often Krookodile) as a means to both revenge-kill, late-game sweep with hazard support, and trap Ghosts to make it easier to Rapid Spin.

    You probably weren't even around when this team was used but back in Gen 4 UU, Lady Bug use to use a Snover Hail team that had Flareon as its main specially defensive wall, and that team was an excellent one that dominated the metagame. Utilizing specific defensive Pokemon with key niches (for example Regenerator Tangela) can definitely be helpful without needing to resort to the "same old shit". In fact, in tournaments stall players that use standard shit will most likely be easily counterteamed because its so obvious what they're gonna use. For example, all I would need to do is run NP Togekiss to completely shut the team you linked down, and you have 0 chance to beat me. Using bog standard defensive Pokemon in such a tournament scenario is surely not good for you as you're at greater risk for a loss, whereas if you're known to mix it up with different kinds of walls that are perhaps not seen opposing offensive teams won't know what to overload on.

    Naturally all stall teams are going to have certain components, but you can make one work using different sets and combinations of Pokemon.

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