The Growth of Competitive Pokemon

[mournLoL]

As a former competitive COD4 player, I can say with certainty that any type of commentating on matches is extremely beneficial to the competitive community. In fact, exactly two great things happen in conjunction with analysis/spectation.
Firstly, it acts as glue for the already-existing community. Seeing great players one knows and has played with before facing off against other great players in high-pressure situation is almost a sort of bonding feeling, not to mention it's interesting to see the strategies employed by the competitors.
It also draws new players into the community. This was actually how I became interested in competitive COD4-- I watched a CEVO (the premiere online PC gaming league) match via video broadcast with commentators, and the depth of the game and skill of the players impressed me. I wanted desperately to be that good.

Of course, a league setting would also be needed-- either a singles league, with matches being played every week, or teams. I'm not exactly sure how the Smogon Premiere League works, being relatively new to the community, but that could work as a sort of canvas to lay the paint of analysis on, if you like. ;)

Anyway, food for thought. I know this was a relatively long post, and for that, I apologize.

 

[Railith]

Pokemon will never work as a "competitive" game. You should compare Pokemon to WoW instead of Smash Brothers and fighting games.

 

[CCM30]

Pokemon will never work as a "competitive" game. You should compare Pokemon to WoW instead of Smash Brothers and fighting games.

WoW is competitive. Clearly you are unaware of the huge WoW scenes in North America, Europe and Asia.

 

[RayePenbur]

Dude, probably because it doesn't take several weeks for the average player to actually make a true team in the Pokemon game. Between EV breeding, IV breeding, Nature breeding, and general leveling up and hold item hunting, it seems impossibly daunting to actually go through and make a team. An added problem is that GameFreak tends to release new games every 6 months to year and a half. Thus changing the metagame that frequently. So much time and energy investment is just too tall an order for most people.

Pretty much the only way to ensure that happens is if there's a retarded amount of money up for grabs. It's up to local (meaning county and state level) communities to make it happen. Also, online communities would need to make paypal accounts for winners so that there are actual monetary incentives for the winners. Once again, it comes down to time and money.

 

[Fuzzy93]

location is everything.

not everyone lives close to tournaments

 

[Railith]

WoW is competitive. Clearly you are unaware of the huge WoW scenes in North America, Europe and Asia.

Only with WoW players. The only games that have a legitimate tourney scene are fighting games and Starcraft in Korea. Both of those do not require time sinks of unrelated game activity to compete.

 

[mournLoL]

Only with WoW players. The only games that have a legitimate tourney scene are fighting games and Starcraft in Korea. Both of those do not require time sinks of unrelated game activity to compete.

FPS Games? D:

CS1.6, CSS, COD4, BF2? DoTA?

There are many genres and myriad games that have a legit competitive scene.

 

[cim]

Pokemon will never work as a "competitive" game.

You know, there's this site, I think it's called Smogon, dedicated to competitive Pokemon battling. It has a fuckton of users, a ladder, and is pretty popular in general. For some reason, I'm getting just a hunch that Pokemon is a successful competitive game.

If you're talking about hax or whatever, Pokemon is and always has been a game of the long term.

 

[Ericcc]

You know, there's this site, I think it's called Smogon, dedicated to competitive Pokemon battling. It has a fuckton of users, a ladder, and is pretty popular in general. For some reason, I'm getting just a hunch that Pokemon is a successful competitive game.

It's not the best competitive game for everyone.

I mean, sometimes I bring my DS with Platinum to school and let my friends play it and they're like "what the fuck is this shit?"
They complain because it's boring/static/un-Mario like... :|

It revolves a lot around strategy and thinking, and some people would rather just jump around and shoot a lot of stuff than get in a 30 minute battle that's nothing but "choose attack --> die --> choose attack --> die etc.". It's really nothing more than selection, after selection, after selection.
It grows on you though, like many other games. Pokemon is definitely a legitimately competitive game, but it's not as enjoyable to some people as it is to others(us Smogonites).

 

[Railith]

You know, there's this site, I think it's called Smogon, dedicated to competitive Pokemon battling. It has a fuckton of users, a ladder, and is pretty popular in general. For some reason, I'm getting just a hunch that Pokemon is a successful competitive game.

All this proves is that Shoddy Battle and other online simulators are viable competitive games.

Dude, probably because it doesn't take several weeks for the average player to actually make a true team in the Pokemon game. Between EV breeding, IV breeding, Nature breeding, and general leveling up and hold item hunting, it seems impossibly daunting to actually go through and make a team.

RavePenbur points out that a person that picks up the games will not be able to begin to compete with others until he or she does a set amount of long tasks in the game. This will take a very long time even if they decide to exploit the game through the RNG. This is what makes people want to cheat to avoid the mandatory tedious grind before "competitive" play.

 

[General_Norris]

All this proves is that Shoddy Battle and other online simulators are viable competitive games.

Of course, since playing on a console is soooo different and nobody ever attends the VGC.

Really you don't seem toknow enough of competitive gaming so as to make that statement as proven by your posts.

 

[Railith]

Of course, since playing on a console is soooo different

It is different because you do not have access to all parts of the multiplayer component at the beginning of the game. It would be like playing Starcraft where one person can only use tier 1 units while the other player has the entire tech tree. The simulators offer every player every Pokemon, move, nature, ability, hidden stat right from the get go.

and nobody ever attends the VGC.

People only go to the VGC because it is the only Pokemon event with significant prizes. They do not have more events like it because most people do not want to play Pokemon at a "competitive" level.

Really you don't seem toknow enough of competitive gaming so as to make that statement as proven by your posts.

You can bypass the grinding by allowing Pokesav or other hacking programs to make legal hacks.

I admit I'm not the king of competitive video games, but I know there is a problem with the game when cheating is considered a legitimate way to prepare for a match.

I will agree that,

A pokémon battle is about who is the best battler not who has more time to sink.

 

[WeGotTheJazz]

Because it's a bit more embarrassing then competing in a game involving blowing other people to shreds. Yeah, I don't get it either.

 

[magickzzl]

Its very interesting that this is coming, as I was actually thinking of starting a group at my local comic shop where the TCG battlers hang. I was thinking of running it as a Jackpot show, where there is a small entry fee, and winner gets half. Im in the sacramento area (Cali baby!) and i have just kinda had this theory, so i guess anyone in driving distance pm me if your interested? or have any ideas?

Also, guys you are complaing about team building taking time, and people not wanting to do that, but look at the VGC forum! I built my team in about a week (well, after like a month of shoddy tests and hair ripping moments) so team building isnt really the problem. also once you have those pokemon trained, you HAVE them there in the box. so the more you train the more team options you have. I run a real life and a job and have NU, UU, OU, UBER and VGC teams all ready to go. thats 28 EV trained, Stat selected, Nature approved and test battled pokemon in a box ready for action. plus a few theorymon who hang around for kicks and grins (Like my clefables, Princess is a gravity and Dreadnot is a toxic orb abuse! great for fun! and my mixed attack hypno who is surprizingly fun for sweeping UU battles)

But then again Im a dork.

 

[soon]

Its very interesting that this is coming, as I was actually thinking of starting a group at my local comic shop where the TCG battlers hang. I was thinking of running it as a Jackpot show, where there is a small entry fee, and winner gets half. Im in the sacramento area (Cali baby!) and i have just kinda had this theory, so i guess anyone in driving distance pm me if your interested? or have any ideas?

Hey, you really should register yourself as a professor at pokemon.com and be the organizer of pokemon organized play in your town.

Also, guys you are complaing about team building taking time, and people not wanting to do that, but look at the VGC forum! I built my team in about a week (well, after like a month of shoddy tests and hair ripping moments) so team building isnt really the problem. also once you have those pokemon trained, you HAVE them there in the box. so the more you train the more team options you have. I run a real life and a job and have NU, UU, OU, UBER and VGC teams all ready to go. thats 28 EV trained, Stat selected, Nature approved and test battled pokemon in a box ready for action. plus a few theorymon who hang around for kicks and grins (Like my clefables, Princess is a gravity and Dreadnot is a toxic orb abuse! great for fun! and my mixed attack hypno who is surprizingly fun for sweeping UU battles)

But then again Im a dork.

lolx, The fastest time I ever achieve to breed, grin a pkmn is 1 day, leveling up to the level where I got the moveset I want and stop.
Didn't bother to level to lvl100.

 

[KingEmpoleon]

Of course, since playing on a console is soooo different and nobody ever attends the VGC.

Really you don't seem toknow enough of competitive gaming so as to make that statement as proven by your posts.

Bahahahaha, if you think nobody attends this, then why do hundreds of people show up at each event, and why do we have a sub-forum dedicated to the VGC, with big Smogon representation at each event (to an extent)?

 

[Chameleon]

I just had to comment on this.

Just as much as I would love to battle with others on the DS in person, like others said, only hardcore players could spend so much time solely on breeding, training, etc., and remaking teams as necessary.

In addition, much less flexibility is allowed in real battles than on simulators. Take the "nostab" tournament: Would players really spend 10+ hours making a team to use once, especially when they might fail completely? Take into account the advance planning to allow time for team building, and suddenly online battling seems so much better.

And shoddy battle does a lot to accomodate for the lack of "in-person feelings" that a real-life tournament is asking for. We even have live chat and somewhat self-keeping records. All shoddy battle doesn't have are the animations and people in front of you. Take into account the trips, training, and how many people would be left to make Pokemon the type of game you described in the first post?

I would like it, but would struggle because it's almost all or nothing timewise.

 

[General_Norris]

I admit I'm not the king of competitive video games, but I know there is a problem with the game when cheating is considered a legitimate way to prepare for a match.

It's not cheating, it doesn't give you any kind of edge. If you give me a golf club for free I'm not cheating.


@King Empoleon
It was meant to be sarcastic.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

All shoddy battle doesn't have are the animations and people in front of you

It also isn't 100% accurate to the real game and does not yet support some important modes. I probably sound like a broken record at this point but Smogon has basically gone through two entire generations without developing a proper doubles metagame, and that's the mode I prefer to play.

Other points are valid. Few people would be willing to slap together a one-use team for a gimmick tournament on the real deal.

It's not cheating

Yes it is. When you are modifying the game via external third party devices, it's cheating, full stop. You are cutting out a huge part of the training process that people who buy only the game have to deal with, and even though the breeding/training aspect of Pokemon is awful, it's still part of the game. I don't really care if my opponent hacks when the end result is 100% identical to what can be obtained legitimately, but it is still cheating.

Furthermore, far, far too many hackers are ignorant of the inner workings of the game and produce "legal hacks" that are anything but. Illegal IV spreads on caught Pokemon, impossible move/ability combinations, egg moves on Pokemon in Ultra Balls, etc. They may not intend to hack impossible things into existence, but it happens, and it is annoying to deal with.

 

[magickzzl]

Hey, you really should register yourself as a professor at pokemon.com and be the organizer of pokemon organized play in your town.



lolx, The fastest time I ever achieve to breed, grin a pkmn is 1 day, leveling up to the level where I got the moveset I want and stop.
Didn't bother to level to lvl100.

I may have to do that!

With the fab Auto level feature we only have to level to 50 now! Which to be honest i like battling at 50

But for those of us that battle IRL is not just the game, its actualy human contact! lol! But also hearing the stories about epic losses and wins, lost shinies and hours of grinding and just knowing there are people out there in the real world who do what we go!

Besides, I always bring food! Ask Katai ;) lol!

 

[Venusaur]

It's like this:

Elementary School: "Oh cool, Pokemon! Let's play wrecklessly!"
Middle School: The kids are a bit more mature, and think that it will get old eventually.
High School: Close to becoming adults, people see it as a "kid's game" and don't want to be ridiculed for it.
College: More mature, hardly give a darn whether they're seen playing it or not. They've realized a game is a game.
Adult: Still playin' it, but a lot less time depending on how hard you work.

I personally being a senior in high school now don't care. I know a couple people who play, and only play it for fun. I don't have much time as I did before, but I'd bring my DS once or twice a year and play during downtimes.

 

[Larko]

give me ANY kinda tournament near toledo, Ohio. and ill be there no matter what

 

[General_Norris]

You are cutting out a huge part of the training process that people who buy only the game have to deal with, and even though the breeding/training aspect of Pokemon is awful, it's still part of the game. I don't really care if my opponent hacks when the end result is 100% identical to what can be obtained legitimately, but it is still cheating.

You realize that it doesn't give you any kind of advantage at all? It's not cheating. Do you think that if I pay you a DS you are cheating? It gives no advantage, you are not cheating.

The tournament is about who is the best battler not about who has more time. And even then, if the rules allow you to hack how the hell is that cheating? Is creating a team on Shoddy cheating too?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

You realize that it doesn't give you any kind of advantage at all? It's not cheating. Do you think that if I pay you a DS you are cheating? It gives no advantage, you are not cheating.

The tournament is about who is the best battler not about who has more time. And even then, if the rules allow you to hack how the hell is that cheating? Is creating a team on Shoddy cheating too?

The timesink is part of the game, like it or not. It's bad game design and only masochists enjoy it, but that's irrelevant. The prep work for cartridge play can't really be entirely disregarded. Cutting that out does give you an advantage, as you can train and test more things faster and easier. I'd be willing to bet that GameFreak considers the breeding and training process to be relevant to competitive play. Little Cup is the perfect example for that.

Wrt bolded: Exactly what rules are we talking about here? The only official tournaments TPCi ever hold quite explicitly state that using external devices to tamper with your Pokemon is forbidden. If other organizers and casual players wish to use their own rules for that stuff, then that's different.

 

[magickzzl]

Guys, this conversation is heading into territory where no one is going to win. Lets state some facts.

There is a comptetitive community for pokemon already (look, Im posting on it!).

There are players who play competitivly with the game. Im using The wifi tourny forum and the Nintendo VGC's as my proof here.

The game is a time sink to play within the constraits of the game. (hence my personal 300+ hours in pearl alone)

Competitive WIFI and VGC players ALREADY have teams made, and honest players are hack free.

So really, there are people with legit pokes ready to go, I think the REAL question is, are there enough of us in individual regions to get together on a regular bases to keep a real world regular tournament going?

The second, less important point is, most of the people on here complaining are to lazy to build legit teams IRL and if your not prepared to spend some time then perhaps this isnt the part of the game for you.

Just some thought! not trying to troll, crucify or throw anyone under the bus :)