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The Horribly Slow Murder with the Extremely Inefficient Weapon (feat. Gothorita)

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Moose V, Jun 14, 2013.

  1. Moose V

    Moose V

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2012
    Messages:
    538
    Psycho Moose (Joint RMT feat.Moose V and Psych071c)

    First, the best way to understand how Gothorita operates would be to simply watch this: Gothorita takes another victim!
    [​IMG]
    You can't escape Gothorita, you can't take it down, your only hope is that it will just finish you off quickly, but deep down you know it will be a slow, painful death.This RMT will consist of two teams, one made by PsYch071c, and the other made by myself, moose V. We both decided to look for new sets to run in UU and eventually we settled on Gothorita; a pokemon so rarely seen, it doesn't have any sets on smogon in any tier, even though its evo got banned from UU.



    The first team will be PsYch071c's (not mine, although we worked on it together a little), a hail team with specially defensive Gothorita. You'll see why I posted that video at the begninning in a second:

    This team is very, very fun to use and very effective on top of it.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


    Abomasnow
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 Atk / 48 HP / 208 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    Moves:
    ~Ice Shard
    ~Wood Hammer
    ~Swords Dance
    ~Earthquake

    This set is pretty much the definition of unexpected in UU. Probably the most common three types of Ab sets are subseed, special choice scarf or maybe some variation of a mixed attacker with blizzard and wood hammer. So pretty much some of the most common switch-ins to Ab are things like umbreon and steel types that resist Ab's dual stab. This is a mistake, however, as at +2, Ab OHKOs umbreon, Registeel and Suicune (By the way these Evs allow Ab to outspeed every strong wall in the tier bar defensive Arcanine). Not only that, but this set acts as a great counter to things like sub CM raikou and can easily OHKO flygon with a STAB ice shard. Abomasnow also appreciates the removal of Bronzong (through Gothorita), one of the few walls that doesn't mind this set too much.



    Jynx
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ability: Dry Skin
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Moves:
    ~Psyshock
    ~Trick
    ~Blizzard
    ~Shadow Ball/Focus Blast

    This is the team's main revenge killer. Jynx is actually surprisingly strong and can pretty easily spam blizzard to its heart's content. It also completely shuts down a poke that can give this team troubles otherwise: CroCune. As CroCune's only attacking move actually heals jynx, it won't be doing anything with jynx still around. This Jynx can also prove fairly surprising to most UU players, many of whose only glimpses of Jynx were that on an NU nasty plot set and thus they flat out don't expect Jynx to outspeed things like scarf heracross.


    Gothorita
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Moves:
    ~Magic Coat
    ~Rest
    ~Toxic
    ~Charge Beam

    Ah, Gothorita. This set is may be even more annoying than prankster sableye (gasp). With this EV spread and these moves, Gothorita traps and takes down a crap ton of walls. This set also means that an opponent can't lock themselves into Draco Meteor w/ specs kingdra, Hi Jump Kick with scarf mienshao, etc. and get a kill lest they be trapped and revenge killed by this 2 foot 4 inch devil. This set can also prove annoying to the bothersome lead froslass, bouncing back hazards and taunts and taking very little from ice beams. Intersting;y enough, goth also traps and takes down up all 3 of UU spinners, only getting phazed away by blastoise after crippling it with a toxic. Don't play around with this thing too aggressively and rest a lot. Sometimes it may even be in you best interest to pp stall a bit with rest. If you don't get the shit critted out of you, you should be fine, but NOTE you opponent may begin hurling profanities at you after a while with this set. Here's a sample of goth slowly killing a bronzong:The massacre


    Suicune
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 188 HP / 4 SDef / 64 Spd
    Modest Nature
    Moves:
    - Hydro Pump
    - Blizzard
    - Hidden Power [Electric]
    - Calm Mind

    Yet another unexpected threat on the team, CM 3 attacks suicune. Suicune stops cold things like weavile that give the rest of the team problems and hits back surprisingly hard. Not much else to say about this guy but that I was quite skeptical of his power when I first saw this team, but now psych has made me a believer.


    Empoleon
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 156 HP / 4 SDef / 96 Spd
    Modest Nature
    Moves:
    ~Hydro Pump
    ~Blizzard
    ~Grass Knot
    ~Surf

    Empoleon is the hardest hitter on the team, and with the strongest water move in tier, it hits HARD. Synergy-wise, empoleon stops things like kingdra and specs slowbro which otherwise are left relatively unchecked. Specs Empoleon itself also brings with it a surprise factor that can prove deadly to an opponent. Most things sent in to take is down can easily be handled by gligar, so not only is it massively powerful, but can postpone its own death seemingly endlessly. An 100% accurate blizzard is just the icing on the cake.


    Gligar
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ability: Immunity
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
    Impish Nature
    Moves:
    ~Earthquake
    ~Roost
    ~Stealth Rock
    ~U-turn

    Good ol' gligar. He's actually infinitely useful on hail teams which tend to develop fighting weaknesses and close combat trigger happy opponents are only further angered when this bat asshole takes a close combat designed for Empoleon, Abomasnow or Jynx. Not only that, but he can absorb specs tbolts aimed at taking down Suicune or Empoleon as well, frustrating hail-hating opponents even further. With access to rocks, u-turn and reliable recovery, gligar slides right into the last slot on the team.


    Notes about this team: This team is only really effective if you know how to use it, but once you figure it out, it can be massively threatening. Here a couple things to look out for in the team preview.
    1) Weavile. When you see this guy, keep Suicune around.
    2) Arcanine. Same as before but Gligar
    3) Froslass. There are pretty much 2 options this team has to beat up lead froslass. The first is leading with goth and magic bouncing it but the end result is that there will probably be a lot of spikes on both sides of the field. The second option is to lead with Abomasnow, set up a swords dance as it sets up a spike, EQ it down to its sash and the wait for it to use something other than destiny bond (continually SD while doing this) then take it down with ice shard. After that, your opponent potentially opened themselves up to be swept.
    4)Bronzing. Trap this thing, trap it good.
    5) Meloetta. If this things sub CM, it can be annoyinf af. If you can, try to scout what its attacks are. If its dual stab, empoleon can deal with it fairly well. If its psyshock, focus blast, gligar can u-turn out into jynx and jynx can trick it. If it's psychic, focus blast, this is the most annoying, but jynx can take a hit a do a lot back.
    There are a few other things that can be annoying but I'm just gonna list these for now. If you use this team, play around with it a lot before doing any serious laddering with it. Get used to how well goth can take hits, realize jynx can't take any physical hit, ever, discover how many things Ab scares out, etc. It's a fun team with good offensive synergy, good pressure and a fucking Gothorita so enjoy.




    Next, we'll move onto the team I made with a more offensive Gothorita:

    I decided to try out a more aggressive gothorita set with choice specs. One of the main problems, however, was that Gothorita lacked good speed (base 55) and although with max speed, goth could outspeed suicune, that left it with no bulk investment, which meant that Goth was a little too frail. The answer to these problems lay in trick room. Without further ado, here's the team:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Gothorita
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SpD
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def / 11 Spd
    Moves:
    ~Thunderbolt
    ~Grass Knot
    ~Psyshock/Psychic
    ~Hidden Power [Ice]/Signal Beam

    First, I'll explain this set a little bit. The IVs minimize attack, minimize speed, and still give goth a base 70 hp ice (which I prefer for gligar, flygon, zapdos, etc.). Obviously, if you decide to run signal beam, you can give it 0 Atk and 0 Spd, although with 0 Spd, Goth doesn't outspeed/ get outsped by anything different than if it had 11 IVs bar a weird snorlax with around 32 speed EVs. With the ability to at least 2HKO a good 3/4 of UU, while they can't escape of course, Gothorita makes for probably the best trick room revenge killer in the tier. With a trick room up, goth outspeeds everything in the tier but Bronzong, Snorlax, Cofagrigus, Slowbro and Dusclops (basically the very bulky things that goth shouldn't try killing in the first place). You could replace something with trick if you really want to, but IMO its not really worth it as all 4 of its attacks serve some important purpose. Goth also, for whatever reason, especially punches holes in common defensive walls (Gligar, Slowbro, Qwilfish, Hitmontop, Blastoise, etc.), creating opportunities for Snorlax or Escavalier to sweep. Here's a clip of gothorita putting in some work: Click Me! Note that I was pretty tired during this battle so I made a few questionable plays



    Slowking
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ability: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 Def
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd / 0 Atk
    Moves:
    ~Trick Room
    ~Psyshock
    ~Surf
    ~Nasty Plot

    When I made this team, I wanted it to have a fairly sturdy wall core but also have some very threatening offfensive capabilities. This is where Slowking comes in. Why am I using Slowking over Slowbro? As usual, the answer is mainly because of Slowking's superior movepool, which happens to contain nasty plot. With decent SpA, great defensive typing, an amazing ability and access to trick room, Slowking fits into this team extremely well. Even with no defensive investment, scarf victini does only 37.3 - 43.9% with V-create, which after leftovers can be completely recovered with regenerator.



    Cofagrigus
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ability: Mummy
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 Def
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 30 Def / 30 SAtk / 30 SDef / 2 Spd / 11 Atk
    Moves:
    ~Trick Room
    ~Nasty Plot
    ~Shadow Ball
    ~Hidden Power [Fighting]

    Cofagrigus is another poke that works wonders as a defensive wall but also proves very threatening when it goes offensive. This set is fairly self-explanatory; set up a trick room and then nasty plot or vice versa. The IVs once again provide a base 70hp fighting and minimize Atk and Spd. With perfect offensive coverage, cofagrigus is a huge threat with very few counters.



    Snorlax
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ability: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 SDef
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    Moves:
    ~Return
    ~Pursuit
    ~Earthquake
    ~Seed Bomb/Fire Punch/Superpower/Crunch

    Offensive Snorlax is actually amazing with trick room. With these EVs, it can take hits and easily OHKO most offensive pokemon in the tier. On my snorlax, I use seed bomb, partly for bulky water types, but mainly for surprising Rhyperior, probably banded Lax's most common switch-in. Against a tank Rhyperior, Snorlax nets 70.66 - 83.83%, easily crippling rhyperior for the rest of the match. I think the second best option for this slot is superpower, mainly because of its base power and surprise factor, followed by crunch, followed fire punch.




    Bronzong
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 HP / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    Moves:
    ~Trick Room
    ~Stealth Rock
    ~Gyro Ball
    ~Earthquake


    This guy is probably the least interesting guy on the team, but I needed a special tank that could trick room, at least some form of hazards (I had a spin-blocker after all) and a ground immunity. To be honest, I'm not really a fan of bronzing in general, but when given an actual purpose like trick room, rain dance, gravity, etc. setter, it works out fairly well. One word of advise about bronzong: set up hazards and THEN trick room, I know I, like most players, can get kinda trigger happy with trick room, but doing this grants you an extra turn of TR that isn't wasted setting up rocks.



    Escavalier
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ability: Swarm
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    IVs: 0 Spd
    Brave Nature
    Moves:
    ~Iron Head
    ~Megahorn
    ~Pursuit
    ~Sleep Talk

    For my last poke, I needed one more offensive poke. Seeing as I currently had 3 special attackers and 2 physical attackers, I wanted one more physical attacker. With base 20 speed, an attack stat that was only beat by rhyperior and darmanitan, and excellent defenses on both ends of the spectrum, banded excavalier earned a spot on my team. With a trick room up, Esc can't be outsped by anything in the entire tier and deals out massive damage with a base 120 STAB move coming off of a ridiculous 608 Atk. This thing does its job very well.



    Notes about this team: I'm not gonna do a threat list cuz anything that's a threat becomes easily killable after a trick room gets sets up or vice versa when a trick room wears out, but obviously anything with taunt is annoying. I'm just gonna leave a few tips about using this team. First, play-style wise, make sure you know what on the team is essential to win. If you see a mono-fighting team, don't let cofagrigus die after setting up a trick room and getting a kill or too. If you see a togekiss, don't just sacrifice bronzong to a random fire move after it's set up rocks and a trick room. With this team, its fairly tempting to play recklessly and let the team go all out offensive and die quickly so you can watch your opponent squirm as they are helplessly revenge killed by goth. There's really no need to do this, however, as this team's defensive capabilities are just as good as its offensive ones. Thus making frequent switches is actually beneficial. At the same time, though, don't continually switch into goth because the specs set is really not that bulky and can generally only take one hit effectively. Another thing to note is that this team has no electric resists so volt switch can be pretty annoying. For this reason, escavalier can be replaced with banded rhyperior. The last thing I wanna say about this team is that double switches are your friend, especially with Gothorita. If (with a TR up) you send out snorlax and the only thing your opponent has to take a physical hit is gligar, predict that shit and double into goth as your opponent goes into gligar to get a free kill. I hope you guys enjoy this team as much as I have been and I'll put an importable down below for both teams.

    Show Hide
    Gothorita @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def / 11 Spd
    - Thunderbolt
    - Grass Knot
    - Psyshock
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Slowking @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 Def
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd / 0 Atk
    - Trick Room
    - Psyshock
    - Surf
    - Nasty Plot

    Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
    Trait: Mummy
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 Def
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 30 Def / 30 SAtk / 30 SDef / 2 Spd / 11 Atk
    - Trick Room
    - Nasty Plot
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]

    Snorlax @ Choice Band
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 SDef
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Return
    - Pursuit
    - Earthquake
    - Seed Bomb

    Escavalier @ Choice Band
    Trait: Swarm
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Iron Head
    - Megahorn
    - Pursuit
    - Sleep Talk

    Bronzong @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 HP / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Trick Room
    - Stealth Rock
    - Gyro Ball
    - Earthquake


    Show Hide

    Abomasnow @ Life Orb
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 Atk / 108 HP / 148 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Ice Shard
    - Wood Hammer
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake

    Jynx (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Dry Skin
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Psyshock
    - Trick
    - Blizzard
    - Shadow Ball

    Gothorita @ Eviolite
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Magic Coat
    - Rest
    - Toxic
    - Charge Beam

    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 188 HP / 4 SDef / 64 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Blizzard
    - Hidden Power [Electric]
    - Calm Mind

    Empoleon @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 156 HP / 4 SDef / 96 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Blizzard
    - Grass Knot
    - Surf

    Gligar @ Eviolite
    Trait: Immunity
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Roost
    - Stealth Rock
    - U-turn




    By the way, here's another Gothorita set that can be used to take down things like snorlax, umbreon and defensive arcanine:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    Nature: Bold
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Moves:
    -Rest
    -Taunt
    -Charge Beam
    -Toxic

    And yes, I color-coded this RMT to match Gothorita's colors :) Don't forget to luvdisc if you like these teams!
    PokeGyarados and Zabel Zarock like this.
  2. Grey Knight

    Grey Knight

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Messages:
    356
    Gothorita? did you get inspired by my own gothorita or what ? Posting an RMT with gothorita a few hours i do the same looks suspicious to me.
    btw the rmt title is hilariously long
  3. Moose V

    Moose V

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2012
    Messages:
    538
    Haha, no believe me it took much longer than a few hours to not only make the team but make the RMT too. We've been playing around with Goth for about a week now and he's had his team for at least 3 or 4 days
  4. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,750
    These teams are pretty good. I'll leave a short rate about Psych's team. I'd run a more standard Calm Mind Goth over the Charge Beam set. This is because Calm Mind not only has a guaranteed chance to boost special attack, it also boosts Special Defense, which allows it to set up on weak special attackers. Charge Beam has pretty poor coverage as well, meaning that Goth will be forced out most of the time. I'll also run OTR Cofagrigus over Empoleon or Suicune. Right now Mienshao w/ HP Ice destroys the team pretty much, and Cofagrigus can put a stop to that. TR support also kinda works for Abomasnow. Lastly, I'll run Lovely Kiss on Jynx over Psyshock. This allows Jynx to stop bulky sweepers that have gone out of control that Jynx otherwise can't kill.

    Hope I helped, and I'll probably rate the TR team one day when I feel like it (looks pretty good tbh)
  5. patrick11756

    patrick11756

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2012
    Messages:
    81
    I faced this team 3x on ps! I had a bp team with starring venomoth and empoleon. I can say that the gothorita was the most annoying thing ever... full rate coming later
  6. Kitten Milk

    Kitten Milk youth running out
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    670
    I sort of want to make a hail team with SpD Sableye and Gothorita now ... >:)
  7. Grey Knight

    Grey Knight

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Messages:
    356
    Posted by scorpdestroyer
    since when Gothorite got standardized ? since the goth in my RMT had calm mind ?
    smogon has absolutely no description about it.'
    I mean no offense but i bet you had no idea about Gothorite before you see our RMT-SMT 's .


    as for the team this team it **pes it got me in 1890 in one day of testing keep it up people but just not too up people none wants gothorita banned .
  8. Moose V

    Moose V

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2012
    Messages:
    538
    Calm Mind Goth works well, however, it doesn't do much for Pysch's team. I'm assuming the set you're referring to is something like CM thunderbolt, HP ice, rest btw. The only things that this goth set takes down over the one on his team are things like Nidoking, Nidoqueen, special tornadus and maybe zapdos. None of these really pose serious threats to the team (Everything else on the team can actually hit nido for super effective damage) and the ability to status and magic coat help this team out more IMO.

    @The meinshao comment, yes mienshao can hurt the team if it has HP ice but at the same time, there's a lot on that team that hurts it back. LO mienshao can only outspeed and ohko empoleon and abamasnow, doesn't appreciate hail damage on top of LO, can actually be ohko'd by a +2 ice shard after rocks, gets OHKO'd by 4 of the pokes on the team meaning it can only really come in after a team mate has been taken down and even if it gets a kill, jynx can come in and gets an opportunity to fire off a blizzard. This is not to say that mienshao is not a huge threat, it certainly is and needs to be played around with very cautiously, but getting rid of suicune or empoleon for cofagrigus to help stop it would open up more holes than it would plug as Weavile, kingdra, flygon, victini, darm, porygon-Z and Bisharp could potentially become massive threats depending on which team member you remove. Also with Ab's speed EVs trick room would probably hurt this team more than help it as literally nothing else would appreciate it significantly bar empoleon, but even empoleon outspeeds most walls anyway. It's not a bad idea but overall Cofagrigus wouldn't really help too much.

    @ Lovely kiss, the main reason I, and probably psycho too, don't chose to run lovely kiss is because with a shaky 75% accuracy, it is not a very safe move to rely on nor lock yourself in on. Bulky set up pokes are also the least of the team's worries as pretty much every one of them can be checked by something on this team. Plus, taking away psyshock from jynx would mean that it can do absolutely nothing to snorlax, a poke already very annoying to empoleon and suicune. Using lovely kiss would also hinder Jynx's ability to be a clean-up sweeper, which ends up being its role about a third of the time.
  9. dinodino56

    dinodino56

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
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    113
    Great Team and Luvdisc.

    P.S. The second team kinda looks weak to Sub Chandelure but Snorlax looks like it can do a good job against it. Just don't let Snorlax Faint.
  10. Lovelace

    Lovelace

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2013
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    109
    A month or two ago I had someone recommend Gothorita to me, I didn't think much of it but I guess it turned out to be a bit of a monster.

    Anyways, very solid looking teams and cute reference.
  11. Moose V

    Moose V

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2012
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    @Scotti Thanks man :) Ya I definitely need to keep snorlax around when I see chandelure, but unless I stupidly sack snorlax, it can be dealt with pretty painlessly as CB snorlax is easily the best chandelure counter in the tier.


    @Lovelace I recommend you give it a try. Not only is it fun to use, but you can kinda tailor make the set to take down whatever annoys your team. For instance, if you gave the set I posted at the end something like 80 speed Evs, it could take down umbreon without a care in the world, taunting it and then stalling it out of foul plays and forcing it to struggle while not minding even a crit or two due to its very low attack and very high defense. You can also make it into a wobbuffet-esque set with mirror coat and tickle. It also gets both screens, flash (if you wanna be that guy), swagger, sub, thunderwave, heal bell, trick and (I kinda wanna try this out) imprison. If you made a set that was protect, foul play, imprison, heal bell, you could force umbreon to only be able to use wish and the fun would begin. Ya, Goth can do a lot.
  12. saxtonhale

    saxtonhale

    Joined:
    May 17, 2013
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    It's okay if he uses the same poke as you, dude. No one gets to call dibs on using a specific poke, it's okay.
  13. Moose V

    Moose V

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2012
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    538
    Just ignore him, he's gone insane. Psych and I are obviously not the the first to think of using Gothorita, but we both worked together to create 2 fun teams that I think utilize Goth's full potential. I hadn't really seen any effective use of goth before we began working on this so I guess we just decided we'd try to be one of the first.
  14. mikekap

    mikekap

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2011
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    29
    Ok I simply love this team. I'm using it myself, and it is just so well-structured. I'm using the first version.The main fact , that makes it so great, is that everybody think that it is a pure stall hail team, and it isn't.No one is prepared for that beastly suicune (we should see in uu more offensive suicunes). Empoleon's Hydro Pump, or surf, can deal massive pain , when in torrent range (I think I OHKO'd, or 2Hko'd ,I can't remember, an Umbreon, in Torrent range with Hydro Pump O_o ). And last but no least, Gothie is soooo annoyng, a true stallbreaker, and nerveracker.I think I battled the creator of the team once, so congrats from here as well!

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