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The HOutsiders - peaked #27 on PS!

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by ganj4lF, Oct 2, 2012.

  1. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Messages:
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    The HOutsiders - An OU Team


    [​IMG]


    Hi everyone! When you first opened the thread and read the title, you probably inferred two things from it. First of all, my creativity sucks and I couldn't figure out a good name for it (and, trust me, you're perfectly right). Second, and more seriously, that this team I'm going to present you was first built to compete in Harsha's Outsiders Challenge, and thus had to satisfy a basic requirement: no pokes used into it could exceed the top 10 in the most recent usage statistics. Also, Genesect, Thundurus-Therian and Tornadus-Therian weren't allowed for obvious reasons. That restriction made teambuilding kinda harder, but very interesting: it forced me to discover pokemons that I hardly ever used, and they often manage to impress me with their effectiveness.

    The team managed to complete Outsiders Challenge, reaching a solid #27 on the PS! ladder. I also used the same team to do a speed run of Birkal's (et. al.) most recent edition of the Dark Horse Project, reaching 1865 rating in less than eight hours. In both cases, I had the feeling that I could do better, but lack of time, concentration or motivation kept me from reaching superior results; even with that in mind, I'm very satisfied for the result, and I'd like to share with you this team and its creation process.



    Team Building Process in short:

    [​IMG]

    Everything started with Latios. I laddered a bit with a horrible version of a DragMag team, and the only positive thing was that Scarf Latios annihilated every single Genesect out there. Having Genesect not in my way is always appreciated in any kind of team, so even before knowing what kind of strategy I was pursuing, Latios was added. And it was a great idea, looking back. Now, I decided to follow the HO path, since many things that compose a good HO team were "outsiders" and thus usable. I proceeded to add Lucario and Deoxys-D, both staples in many HO teams.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Now I know what you are thinking, but in the spirit of the Outsiders Challenge, I added Honchkrow. The thing is a boss behind a Substitute and the idea was to use it as a late-game cleaner, when most of the opponent's team has been weakened by several powerful blows. I also added Gengar since it's awesome, and I badly need a way to prevent spinning. Forcing switches also is sweet when you have two layers of hazards on the ground, and Gengar is a master of that.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    At this point I added a random sixth member (don't ask me, I don't remember what it was) and went out to test a bit. Obviously Honchkrow immediately showed why it's down into UU and I almost never saw it onto the ladder. The team couldn't take a single blow, was generally slow apart from Latios and Gengar. Also, since Honchkrow's priority is not reliable at all, once Lucario was gone I was torn apart by basically any fast sweeper with a bit of power behind its attack. It was apparent that the weakest link was Krow, and it was readily removed for Keldeo. I also added Conkeldurr, since it can mantain offensive pressure while being able to tank a weaker hit, and also provided a quite useful Fighting-type priority.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    At this point the team started to work well and I was getting used to it. However, using a poke like Deoxys-D was not much into the spirit of the Outsiders Challenge: of course, it wasn't used much, but still was a staple of HO teams. I decided to substitute it with the more obscure, unpredictable and unknown (at least to many OU-only players) Uxie!

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Now, after making my way into the Hall of Fame of the Outsiders Challenge, Pocket suggested me an awesome Suicide Lead Mew set, which promply replaced Uxie. I was sad to remove that little evil Memento user, but the new addition was performing consistently better so I had to say goodbye to Uxie and go on without it.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Team Composition in detail:

    [​IMG]

    Deoxys-Defense (Mew) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Taunt
    - Thunderbolt
    - Flamethrower​

    This is my usual lead, we could call it my Deoxys-D replacement. It actually isn't true, since it does quite more. Deo-D's suicide set doesn't run Taunt, and is forced to rely on Psycho Boost to damage many spinners or common switch-ins. Mew, thanks to its consistently higher Speed and Special Attack stats, can deal with said switch-ins better and more consistently: it doesn't rely on HP Fire to kill Forretress, Scizor and similar, and can OHKO spinners like Starmie on the switch, while retaining the ability to 2HKO Tentacruel outside Rain. Also, Fire + Electric coverage is not bad to get some surprise, little sweep when the opponent already lost its faster team members. Taunt is awesome to avoid set-up, while Synchronize keeps things like Defensive Politoed from Toxicing without thinking about it. This set surprised me with tis effectiveness, despite the lack of Spikes, and I was glad to keep playing with it even when Deo-D was allowed.

    [​IMG]

    Lucario @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Crunch
    - ExtremeSpeed​

    My main sweeper, wall breaker, and ass-saver thanks to priority Extremespeed. We all know what Luke is capable to do with a Swords Dance under its belt, and it never disappionted me. I learned to love Lucario's typing: even with those shitty defences, its three 4x resistances make setting up a SD not that hard at all. Justified is also a nice addition, being able to switch into predicted Crunches or Dark Pulses (possibly choiced...) and fire off a +1 LO Close Combat, that will probably cripple even things that resist it. Crunch is used to deal with Jellicents and Ghosts in general, since Gliscor is already handled nicely by Gengar. There's not much to say about Lucario: it does what I need it to do, and it's very good at that.

    [​IMG]

    Keldeo @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Hydro Pump
    - Secret Sword
    - Hidden Power [Ghost]​

    Okay, I really found injustifiable Keldeo's placement in the usage statistics. Keldeo is absolutely the heart of my team: it's usually sent out early, since it has a good set of resistances, passable bulk, and hits like a truck almost every single target in the OU environment. Okay, this is probably an exaggeration, but still, Keldeo blows things away with raw power, and opens holes into the enemy team for Lucario, Conk and Gengar to exploit. Life Orb gives flexibility, and while recoil is annoying and often cuts Keldeo's life short, it allows to open said holes, a result that cannot be accomplished with Leftovers or some other defensive item. Hydro Pump is the main attack, but Secret Sword is really invaluable since it gives a way to hit special sponges and to avoid being walled by those. HP Ghost rounds up the coverage, but it's not really much used, apart from Jellicent and predicted Starmie switch-ins (and in case of Jelli, I often prefer to just switch Conkeldurr in). Calm Mind is mostly a filler, and I considered swapping it out for Icy Wind, since Dragonite is a pain. I could use some feedback on that!

    [​IMG]

    Conkeldurr @ Leftovers
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Bulk Up
    - Drain Punch
    - Mach Punch
    - Payback​

    Conkeldurr is one of the pokes that could fit in almost every team out there. It is versatile, having an awesome combination of bulk, raw power, and very decent typing. It was added mainly to patch up the general squishiness of the team, and it does very well its job. Also, it handles pink blobs like nothing, Jellicent, and switches in onto every predicted status effect (well except Spore...) to take full advantage of it. Mach Punch is very handy, and while many things resist it, after a Bulk Up and a Guts boost (it's more common that what one may believe), or just one of the two, hits decently hard even resistors, contributing to chipping away the health of powerful threats even if Conk is going to be sacced that turn. Conkeldurr rarely sweeps, but it's an awesome team player, taking blows reserved for someone else, and enabling me to survive some tricky situations.

    [​IMG]

    Gengar @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Disable
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast​

    Classic SubDisable Gengar, one of my favourite sets. Checks a wide range of threats with its three immunities, blazing Speed and high Special Attack. Gliscor stalling your whole team? No problem, it's set-up bait. BU Toxicroak just got +6 since your cat stepped onto your keyboard and played for you (not referring to anyone in particular...*ahem* XD)? Gengar can solve that. It's probably the best offensive spinblocker available, takes advantage of those rocks to rack up a lot of damage while forcing countless switches. Shadow Ball's trollish chance to drop SpD is the icing on the cake, giving Gengar the ability to kill even things that could stall out its attacks, if they dare to try. I never regretted playing him once, and I don't do it now. If not the MVP of the team (Keldeo usually is), it's quite close.

    [​IMG]

    Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Psyshock
    - Hidden Power [Fire]​

    So the first member to be added is the last to be presented. Seems fair. Latios is my general "oh s**t" panic button; it's close to be the perfect Scarf user. Hugely powerful attack readily available, with no need to set up? Check. Awesome attacking stat and Speed? Check. Resistance to a truckload of things? Check too. It's also immune to 2 out of 3 kinds of entry hazards. You probably noticed the fact that I don't run Trick; apart from the obvious loss of coverage, the thing is that Latios works so well with the Scarf that I don't want to Trick that thing away, and always prefer to deal with walls in a different way. Draco Meteor is just obvious, kills dangerous Dragons and everything without a very decent special bulk. Surf and Psyshock are nice to have, especially the latter since it OHKOs opposing Gengars, Brelooms, and Modes Venusaurs in the sun. HP Fire fries Genesect; just Lead with Latios, click HP Fire as they try to U-Turn out, and enjoy playing 5v6. After countless matches, the grand total of THREE Genesects switched out of my Latios leading against them (one was banded, and one was Pocket...). Of course, it's weak to Pursuit which is quite annoying, but manageable with smart play and proper prediction. Still the most irreplaceable team member.

    Special Mention (open)
    Deoxys-Defense (Uxie) @ Fire Gem
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 34 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 220 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Memento
    - Psychic
    - Hidden Power [Fire]​

    Uxie was my previous suicide lead, and it worked very well, too. Memento is unexpected and can lead to some early sweep thanks to the free turn it gives to Lucario or Keldeo. Apart from that, Uxie's role is similar to Mew, just with different stats: more bulk, less attack power. In the end Mew was more effective, but still I had a ton of fun while testing out this poke!


    Threats and issues:


    This team does not have a safe switch-in to every threat in OU, and it's not meant to have one. HO teams usually have to sacrifice something on their path to victory, no exception here. However, I'll give a short threat list to give you a rough idea of what troubles the team the most.

    • Weather Abusers that can outspeed Latios: while Timid Venusaur is still not that common, it completely screws my team. The same is true for LO Jolly Stoutland, which is even less common, but still. Basically, everything that cannot be taken down by priority thanks to decent bulk and cannot be outsped by Scarf Latios. I must resort to wearing down techniques, and hope to bring them into Espeed's KO range. This can be difficult at times, but still is kinda manageable.
    • Tornadus-T: if played intelligently, it can take advantage of the huge Flying weakness three Fighting type induce; however, most of them just go down to Draco Meteor while they expect to outspeed and U-Turn out. Also, thanks to weakness to SR, it's not too hard to bring them into Espeed's KO range and dispose with Lucario.
    • Bulky Dragonites if Rocks don't stay onto the field: Parashufflers and SubRoost sets are a pain; if they are running only an attack, I can attempt to deal with them with Gengar, but still, they're almost impossible to take down bar some weird and unlikely coincidence that makes them take a Draco Meteor. Luckily these things are much less common thanks to Genesect, and my team takes full advantage from that.
    • Lack of room for errors: even if HO is not that hard to play, most of my losses came from not-optimal switches, questionable plays and such. Having so much frail pokes can be troubling if you're not fully concentrated on the game, at least that's what I found out the hard way. This is kinda unfixable I guess, but still it's good to let you know.

    Closing notes and thanks:


    Well, that's it. Thank you everyone that endured that huge textwall, and thank you even more if you'll let your rate, advice, feedback, insult or whatever; everything is welcome. Special thanks to Harsha, Birkal, ginganinja, NixHex and all those awesome OU mods that are running so many great projects these days; a big thanks to Pocket, for that Mew set. Also my gratitude goes to Temp V1, Electrolyte, and many nice users for the ideas, the support and the awesome run we had in the CtP project; it gave me many great ideas and also motivation to keep myself improving and building better teams / playing better.

    Sorry for grammar errors and things that may have survived my proofreading, I'm kinda tired and hope everything is understandable.
  2. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Hey there ganj4lf!

    I can't find much room for improvement, because your team is pretty freakin' awesome. However, I would go with Icy Wind or HP Ice instead of HP Ghost; since not only does it let you smack dragons, your team doesn't have a single ice move at it's disposal. It also lets you smack Amoonguss and 2HKO at +1 (99,6% chance for Icy Wind after SR, HP Ice is a guaranteed KO). Since you don't have Substitue, Amoonguss can just Spore you or, if Sleep Clause has been activated, Clear Smog your CM boosts off and then Giga Drain. Since Amoonguss has regenerator, it's pretty hard to wear him down enough for Keldeo to KO, so it's usually better to force it out or straight up KO with HP Ice.

    The two main pokes you lose coverage on are Jellicent (but you have Conkeldurr, so it's fine) and Starmie. Starmie may be a problem, but I feel Dragonite could be a bigger problem on average.

    Hope this little insight helps you decide on wether you should pack HP Ice / Icy Wind instead of HP ghost :D
  3. TheStriker

    TheStriker

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2012
    Messages:
    117
    Hi, there ganj4lf

    Oh snap, this team is awesome man! Nice Work! Like you said weather abusers are a threat and with double speed Sawsbuck and possibly venasaur outspeed you. Timid Nature wouldn't be needed for you because of this and Terrakion with scarf usually runs adamant for that extra 10% boost so you can make a fair share with your extra 2 Base Speed and boost it to a great SpA of 394 with Modest Nature. These pokemon have great synergy with Mew, Gengar, and Latios because of Psychic being a great resist. On Keldeo, I would run Icy Wind instead of HP [Ghost] and for info, see ClubbingSealClub's rate. Finally, I would give Expert Belt to Keldeo. If you are running Icy Wind, then you can kill threats easily with out recoil so Ferrothorn's Leech Seed won't ruin your sweep. Ferrothorn is #3 so don't think its uncommon. Great team! Tested it and went well. Out of my 5 game matches it won all 5 but struggled with momentum and to add to your threat list, add VoltTurn teams. These really stop you.

    ________________________

    Need a Rate? PM or VM Me!
  4. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude is an official Custom Title Rater
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Media Contributor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,377
    Hey Ganj4lF nice looking team and congrats on the peak! As you can probally tell by my avatar i like Uxie to and i was thinking of making a HO team with a Stealth Rock+Memento Uxie, great minds think a like :D

    As you mentioned in the op this team does have troubles with Tornadus-T, Dragonite, Venasaur, and even Stoutland. This is because they can all dish out alot of damage while some of them are able to outspeed your Latios as well. Your team also lacks Ice-type coverage on any pokemon, this is quite ironic because out of the four pokemon that you specifically mentioned as threats in your threatlist (Tornadus-T, Dragonite, Stoutland, Venasaur) 3 of them have Ice-type weaknesses. Although quite rare much like Timid Venasaur and Jolly Stoutland Choice Scarf Latios with 31 speed evs can be a problem because it outspeeds your whole team although they are quite rare some run Trick>Hidden Power [Fire] while some Latios on rain teams run Thunder>Hidden Power [Fire] again not really a big deal but if you are unlucky enough to come across one then your team is in trouble.

    To help against these threats i suggest Life Orb Mamoswine>Lucario Mamoswine is still a great physical attacker in Lucario's place and also has Fighting-type coverage in the form of Superpower while also having a priority move. What makes him a better fit then Lucario is his ability to help you against the threats to your team. With Ice Shard Mamoswine still has a priority move and can ohko Dragonite and Tornadus-T after Stealth Rock damage. He can also revenge kill weakend Venasaur's and even Stoutland's with the move. Although rare like i said this can also help you against opposing Choice Scarf Latios with Ice Shard. He helps handle all these threats and that is only with Ice Shard! Superpower is great so you don't lose Fighting-type coverage with Lucario gone. Icicle Spear can help you against Gliscor and Dragonite who are cowering behind a Substitute. Finally Earthqauke is a powerful stab move and Mamoswine's most powerful move. He also helps you against the bane of all weatherless teams sun being able to threaten common sun pokemon Ninetales and Heatran with Earthqauke and Dugtrio, Chlorophyl sweepers, Xatu, Salamence, Dragonite and even Donphan with his Ice-type stab. Without Lucario you do lose a dedicated late game sweeper but you already have Keldeo and Conkeldurr. You also lose your only Dragon-type resist but the funny thing is Mamoswine handles dragon-types perfectly.

    Good luck with the team i hope i helped and Luvdisc'd. I also believe the ou mods asked us to congratulate the Potato's when you get the chance so i guess it is my chance now haha congrats :)

    Sets
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Mamoswine @ Life Orb | Thick Fat
    Adamant | 4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Ice Shard | Earthqauke | Icicle Spear | Superpower

    Tl;dr
    Show Hide


    Mamoswine--->Lucario



    ~Superpowerdude
  5. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    115
    <3 You, and it seems most of the potential solutions have already been mentioned. The only other one I think is really worthy of a mention is potentially Ice Punch on Conk over Payback, as you'll probably find that more useful for dealing with your key threats.

    EDIT: Couldn't help but think you have to be referring to me with my damn cat :d
  6. magnusmistro

    magnusmistro

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    20
    With conc beng his counter to jellicent, payback seems a lot more useful seeing as he has gengar for things like stalling gliscor.


    Great team, I agree about putting mamo in over lucario for that powerful ice stab.
  7. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    775
    Thank you everyone for the comments!

    You're perfectly right, and losing coverage on Starmie is not that big of an issue anyway. Starmie takes 55% min from Hydro Pump outside rain, and is OHKO'd more often than not when rainy, with SR onto the field. Moreover, it cannot OHKO with Thunderbolt, and you could just reduce it to 30% or something like that, and go to Latios / Mew to take the Electric attack. I'll definitely try HP Ice over HP Ghost.
    Well, no way. In my experience Scarf Terrakion is Jolly most of the times, and losing Timid on Latios would mean inability to outspeed Modest Venusaur, thus adding problems to the already problematic Sun Teams.

    Perfectly agree on that!

    Using Expert Belt means that neutral Hydro Pumps aren't boosted and thus brings away most of the wall-shattering power of Keldeo. Ferrothorn is not a problem anyway since I can just switch to Conkeldurr, take advantage of an eventual T-Wave, and Drain Punch back all the damage Leech Seed could have caused. Also, Secret Sword comfortably 2HKOs so Ferrothorn doesn't have the time to Leech Seed me without risking death.

    I must be honest, removing Lucario will be hard since Mamoswine can't sweep while Lucario has no problem doing after a SD. However, I can see some merit in your proposal, so will test it out if I can spare some time. Your rate was in-depth and exhaustive, and it's much appreciated!

    Haha, that moment was so funny! However as magnusmistro already said, Conkeldurr is a full stop to Jellicent, and to a lesser extent can take Starmie down if it's not an all-out offensive variant. ice Punch will remove this ability, andthat's not something I'd want to lose.
  8. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    496
    Hey,

    Cool team ganj4lF, really well built and a great example of a solid Hyper Offense team, so good job on that. There are some minor problems such as DD Roost Dragonite, but these problems can be easily mitigated with a few changes. I honestly do think Gengar is the most expendable member of your team. On a Hyper Offense team such as this, Gengar is commonly used to Spinblock, which is weird because it loses to pretty much every common user of Rapin Spin out there. Starmie outspeeds and KOs Gengar, while Tentacruel can outstall it pretty easily even outside of Rain. Not to mention it doesn't stop Tentacruel from setting up potential Toxic Spikes that heavily limit the survivability of your Conkeldurr, Keldeo and Mew. To help with this, I'd recommend you try out Sableye over your current Gengar. I'm well aware of what Gengar does for your team, but when your team is already pretty reliant on hazards, I feel Sableye would make for a much better option. Sableye can perform as a defensive pivot for your team, being able to switch into these Spinners and actually beat them one on one. This is important because otherwise your opponent can Spin easily, exposing your DD Roost Dragonite weakness further. Sableye also helps out against other threats to your team. Sableye can Taunt / Will-O-Wisp Sand Rush or Chlorophyll abusers such as Venusaur and Stoutland, either burning them or preventing them from using Sleep Powder / Growth. This is great because both scenarios stop you from getting swept, whereas before Stoutland and Venusaur can OHKO Gengar with prior damage. Sableye also helps out immensely against your Dragonite problem. Given that your Mew does not have Ice Beam, you essentially give Dragonite a free turn of setup. Sableye with priority Taunt + Will-O-Wisp completely nullifies any hope Dragonite has of sweeping, making it much easier to deal with as it still needs significant stat boosts before it can accomplish anything. Sableye also beats a lot of the team stuff Gengar does, such as Poison Heal Gliscor, Bulk Up Toxicroak and more thanks to Will-O-Wisp. It's also important to note Sableye does not share the additional Psychic / Ghost / Dark weakness Gengar does, while also having access to Recover.

    Despite making this change, I understand that you said Gengar was close to being your MVP of the team, which makes me kind of regret suggesting Sableye. There are other ways you could go about making your team less weak to these threats. I do think the smallest change to make without changing too much would be either to try Hidden Power [Ice] over Hidden Power [Ghost] on Keldeo, or Icy Wind / Will-O-Wisp over Disable on Gengar. With these changes you still retain the same team members as before, but reduces the number of 'mons that can switch into Gengar / Keldeo. With Hidden Power [Ice] / Icy Wind, you hit Dragonite before it sets up. Assuming you have Stealth Rock up, you can eliminate Dragonite much easier. Icy Wind also helps against Tornadus because after the Speed drop from Icy Wind, Gengar can outspeed and 2HKO. With Will-O-Wisp you hit a lot of Gengar switch ins whilst behind a Substitute, most notably Scizor and Tyranitar. Crippling either of these makes it a lot easier to set up with Keldeo / Conkeldurr respectively, as increases your chances at a sweep.

    Good luck!

    Sableye (open)
    Sableye (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Foul Play
    - Recover
  9. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Thank you for the rate Jimbon! While I can see your point, I'm not really sure swapping Sableye for Gengar is a good idea. While it's true that Gengar is kinda tricky for spinblocking, it can check many other things that Sableye couldn't even dream of. For example, a random Choice Specs attacker is a great pain for every Sableye set: it cannot cripple it with WoW and will be OHKO'd by any decently powered attack. Also, while it better checks defensive DNites, and to a lesser extent Tentacruel (praying that Rain isn't up, obviously...otherwise it's not gonna appreciate the match), it takes 79% minimum from offensive Dragonite Outrage (OHKO 44% of the times after SR), and if the thing is carrying Lum Berry (which is not rare), your chance to stop him is not that high even if it goes for DD first. Okay, I could revenge later with Latios anyway, but I could do that even in Gengar's case. Also, Gengar is completely failproof while checking Gliscor, while a single Toxic on the switch can screw you badly with Sableye, and my team can be easily Toxic Stalled with a bit of luck by Gliscor alone (and maybe a Steel partner to take Draco Meteors. Not to even mention that yeah, Gengar always loses to Starmie, but Sableye has a chance to be OHKO'd after SR, and it always is into Rain. I often prefer to deal with such offensive sets in other ways, for example by preserving my Mew and killing them with a surprise Draco Meteor, while setting up Rocks later. Also, if Starmie switch on basically any pokemon of my team, it MUST gamble to use Rapid Spin, since basically everything can OHKO or severely cripple. Gengar is still useful to stall out things in general and to block unoffensive Spinners like Donphan or Forretress. Sableye could do the same, of course, but still it must rely on inaccurate WoW and has no other means to deal consistent damage. I think this paragraph is not written very well and kinda confused, but I hope you understand why I'm going to think quite hard on your suggestion before implementing it.

    However, on the second part of your post, you're absolutely right: I need an Ice attack somewhere. I will test it on Keldeo first, but if it doesn't work, or it's still not enough, I could test it on Gengar. WoW on Gengar is quite tempting also, since it will give it alternative ways to check threats like Toxicroak or Tentacruel. I'll think about it as long as my schedule allows me to do so, thanks for the input and the many great ideas you brought on the table!
  10. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    Hey!

    Not looking to seriously rate, but I just wanted to point out that Lavos and others have always told me that Keldeo should always run a water-STAB. I told him no, and was particularly reffering to the SubCM set when I said this, the set your using. So kudos for not using a water STAB and making Jellicent cry :D Couple of nitpicks to say and that's it really!

    Lucario: Bullet Punch over Crunch, its better in the long run. Crunch is hitting what? Jellicent? Keldeo can SET UP on that thing. Why kill it? BP hits Terrakion, Gengar, and other ghosts types.

    Keldeo: Use Icy Wind. My team liked the HP Ghost thing, but this team just prefers icy wind for DNIte. It means you can't quite set up on Jellicent easily, but hey, it still can't do anything but taunt you and hope a scald gets a crit anyway.

    Gar: WoW over disable is very good, for the reasons Jimbon said.

    That's it my man! Love the team! Earned a luvdic from yours truly ;] GL with the team!

    Shurt
  11. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Wait, what? Keldeo carries Hydro Pump and there's absolutely no reason to give away the Water STAB. Also, Keldeo can set up on Jellicent, but it doesn't like to do so: Jellicent can burn / toxic the pony and residual damage hurts a lot. Better go to Conkeldurr, Bulk Up and tear everything apart with boosted Paybacks / Mach Punches.

    Bullet Punch on Lucario is interesting since it hits neutrally Venusaur and prevents Terrakion to safely revenge, however I'm a little worried about Reuniclus: nothing can really bring it down after a CM, and while Lucario can't set up on it, Crunch is nice to have, at least to lower its HP to manageable levels.

    For everything else, see previous comments. Thank you for your feedback, it is really appreciated!
  12. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    Please ignore my Keldeo comment. I misread your RMT, sorry! (Thought it was SubCM w/ Secret Sword and HP Ghost). Also, doesn't Espeed hit Venu neutrally as well? I can see where you worry about Reu, which might be a good indicator to put trick on Latios. Probably replace Psyshock or HP Fire (since Conk checks Gene as well as Keldeo being able to live a hit; although Psyshock is probably the way to go. You can always put psychic on Gengar if your desperate for a psychic move?) Trick also screws over dedicated problematic walls like Gastro, Chansey, and Jirachi. GL!
  13. Skill Swap

    Skill Swap

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2012
    Messages:
    15
    hi there, nice team.
    i would recommend you a different mew set.
    Show Hide
    Mew @ Normal Gem
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Magic Coat
    - Explosion
    - Superpower

    this set does not have taunt but magic coat, which helps you against deoxys-d and you can still bounce back hazards. 176 evs + jolly nature means u will always outspeed deoxys-d, the rest is obvious. i think that with normal gem u can still hit very hard spinners on the switch in, and also anything else that thinks it can setup on you. superpower helps against tyranitar, ferrothorn, and such but it can be replaced if needed.
    also i think that leftovers on gengar is better, because the opponent can trick your black sludge again, meaning u will lofe your life/left ect.
    i also think that your team is a little tornadus-t weak, for this reason i would suggest you to use a sub punch set of conkeldurr
    Show Hide

    Conkeldurr (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Guts/Iron fist
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Focus Punch
    - Ice Punch
    - Payback/mach punch

    with this set u can sub on the tornadus switching in and then hurt it with ice punch. u can choose both guts and iron fist, i personally prefer guts but both are usable. if you think that a priority is needed u can use mach punch instead of payback, that can be legit because you already have lucario that can hit ghost/psichic types. gl :x
  14. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    115
    I am personally a serious advocate for Sableye, and I love both using it and seeing it used in OU as it is incredibly useful and fits on almost any team, almost. The problem with Sableye for ganj4's team is that Sableye is a momentum killer, when it comes in everything comes to a halt. While that is very useful for stopping your opponent, it can also negatively affect your team. With a HO team you always want the momentum in your favor, to ensure the team can be most effective, and unfortunately Sableye negates this. WoW on Gengar is rather a good idea though, as it does allow Gengar to more effectivley check certain threats, and I know that the burn would be appreciated against a DD Dragonite as ganj4 has had some trouble having stall-offs with them before. I think HO is the only teamtype where Sableye can't function all that well, which makes me sad, although there are still plenty of opportunities to use him :)

    Espeed does hit Venusaur neutrally and it has double the base power, so it would be redundant to run both Bullet Punch and ESpeed. Bullet Punch would help with things such as Terrakion, although Conk can already deal with that very easily. If Crunch were to be changed I think Ice Punch would be the better idea, as it is another Ice option to hit Dragons hard, and also can be quite useful in dealing with Gliscor. However if you change HP-Ghost on Keldeo to Icy Wind then you probably wouldn't need to bother changing Crunch. While Conk is an incredibly solid check to Jellicent, you don't want it going down and being left with two Ice attacks, and no way to easily kill off Jellicent, just a thought.

    Also Trick on Latios is quite a good idea, however each move on the set really does serve its purpose. Draco isn't ever going to change, just a fact, HP-Fire is incredibly useful for dealing with the ever increasing amount of Genesects running around, Surf in the rain can be used to pull some nice sweeps, and is also useful for dealing with Terrakion. Psyshock is also very useful as it allows Latios to easily deal with Amoonguss, and to a degree certain pink special walls. Trick wouldn't really offer Latios more than it already has, and it would mean it loses out on a valuable coverage move.

    That Mew set could work, however the set ganj4 is currently using is much better suited to his team, as it allows Mew to functionally fulfill its role and support the team. The set you've suggested would do something similar, although the set ganj4 is using is probably better.

    Leftovers on Gengar could work, although with a HO team your opponent isn't really going to be wanting to use their turns to trick you an item that deals small amounts of damage each turn, when they know that every turn they don't attack or set up, they get one turn closer to losing the match. So either works, although because people will generally only get one Trick off, Black Sludge is probably better.

    The Sub-Punch Conk set isn't a bad suggestion, although it sort of decreases Conk's useful life, and ability to check Jellicent as well. By continuously subbing he will keep losing health that Drain Punch won't necessarily return, and if it were to get paralyzed as ganj4 wanted the Guts boost, it is possible that it would get fully paralyzed on the Focus Punch meaning it had just wasted a turn and a sub, so once again I think the set ganj4 is currently using is superior.

    You do have some good ideas though, keep it up :)
  15. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    Wouldnt trick be better overall when replacing psyshock? Easily cripples Amo or walls, while helping against aforementioned threats. On ipod so sorry! Im just asking 2 test it 1st is all. gl
  16. Kidogo

    Kidogo

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    461
    Just as far as personal preference goes, I really like BP on lucario, as there really is not that much crunch hits aside from reuniclus and jellicent. BP allows it to beat stuff like terrakion, but also stuff like gengar and full health mamoswine, which just really makes luke's job much easier. I used a similar HO team recently and never used crunch much when I tried it out--if you find it useful, definitely keep it though.

    I would definitely vote for putting trick on latios, I run scarftios on my current team and trick is really useful to cripple so many things, it also gives you a reuniclus check as someone mentioned above for if you change crunch --> BP on luke. I'd probably recommend > psyshock, since hp fire is soo useful for getting the genesects and the other moves are pretty much obligatory.

    Have you ever considered destiny bond on gengar? When I tested gengar out as a spin-blocker, destiny bond ended up being incredibly useful, as it basically guarantees that you beat tentacruel, forretress, donphan, and just about any slower spinner. You could also try out focus sash as the item, since it lets it beat even starmie if it switches in on the RS, while still allowing it to function as a last ditch measure against stuff like croak with dbond. Even if you want to keep substitute, you could try it over disable. Subdisable is really cool and annoying though, so whichever you prefer.

    I really like the mew set, maybe try magic coat > taunt? It allows you to beat faster SR and taunt users, while basically performing the same role as taunt in terms of shutting down hazard users. Also, have you considered focus sash as the item? This could let it live something like a gensect's u-turn, which could be quite useful, and I don't know how noticeable the boost from ebelt is. Also, definitely move the HP EVs into Def so that genesect gets a SpA boost instead of Atk.

    GL with the team!
  17. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    775
    I feel kinda useless, Temp V1 already addressed many of the suggestions perfectly (thank you!). I still want to emphasize the shaky accuracy of WoW that further makes harder for me to consider Sableye...

    HP Fire and Draco Meteor don't OHKO Venusaur in the Sun, that's not nice at all, you lose the ability to check Modest natured while switching into Growth or something, and you must pray for them to have a LO otherwise it will be painful. Also not having a spammable STAB is quite a loss anyway. Trick on the other hand makes you vulnerable to anything with a way to boost its speed (see random DDNite you mispredicted, or Quiver Dance Volcarona, that you can easily revenge after SR, Lucario's Espeed can't do that...), which is something I cannot afford so much. Many walls aren't a problem anyway, unless you include Bulky Dnite into walls...

    This is on the list of things to test; the ability to kill Terrakion is greatly appreciated, although my little concern for Reuniclus remains.

    See above.

    Fresh and interesting idea, can force huge mindgames with things that carry sucker punch or just be useful in general; I'll definitely try this out, although I have a feeling that WoW or Disable are more useful overall. Brilliant idea anyway!

    Hmm, Magic Coat does not prevent that damn DDNite by dancing on me and laughing while I can just break its Multiscale in return. Taunt is more useful, and the whole point of running that much Speed is basically taken away if you don't run it. Also, there's not many things faster and that carry Taunt (some odd Terrakion set maybe? I never saw an Aerodactyl on the ladder, and maybe one Azelf? which was promptly Draco Meteored while it taunted my Latios on the switch). On Focus Sash, it could be useful to survive something like Specs Hydro Pump from Toed, Genesect is not a problem since it gets a SpA boost (yeah, if stats are equal, SpA is boosted, no need to put Defense EVs) and deals about 50% with U-Turn. Anyway EBelt guarantees the KO on Starmie and lets you 2HKO Cruel which is indeed very handy, while Sash can be very easily broken and rendered useless. Plus if I wanted a Sash lead I could use Azelf which is much better at that (faster speed, higher offenses...).

    Thank you again for all the rates!

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