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The Latios Brigade

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Derpinator, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. Derpinator

    Derpinator

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Messages:
    173
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG] Introduction [​IMG]
    Latios is one of my most favorite Pokemon due to its great Speed, Special Attack and movepool, so I like to try to incorporate it into all of my teams, usually using the Choice Scarf variant because I loved how Latios was an effective revenge killer. However, this time, I decided to try to make a team that essentially set up so that Latios could come in and sweep. The main problem with this idea was that Choice-locked Latios couldn’t sweep very well so I decided to try out Expert Belt Latios instead, which was something I had planned on doing for a while. So, I ended up with this team, which was supposed to eliminate anything that stood in the way of a Latios sweep with the standard offensive set. Here is my final product, I hope you like it and I appreciate any constructive criticism you have to offer. Thanks!


    [​IMG] At a Glance [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    [​IMG] Team-Building Process [​IMG]
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    I started off with Expert Belt Latios, for the reasons I had mentioned in the introduction. I listed out the common checks to the Latios set I had selected and worked from there by figuring out what I needed to eliminate these checks and counters.


    [​IMG][​IMG]
    My first choice was Heracross, a rather underused Pokemon in my opinion. Along with possessing an enormous Attack, it also has been blessed with Moxie, allowing it build up momentum, assuming a counter/check didn’t switch into it. The moveset I had selected provided wide coverage on many of the counters to Latios. The 4x Flying-type weakness that Heracross brought to the team was something I had to keep in mind when deciding the rest of the team, although it wasn’t too troubling thanks to Tornadus-T’s banishment to Ubers.


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    After a little bit of thought, I decided that I needed to add in another Pokemon with coverage moves similar to those possessed by Heracross, except with more strength. Almost right off the bat, Terrakion seemed like the perfect choice because it possessed enormous Speed and Attack along with two great STAB moves. Also, Terrakion brought with it the possibility of priority attacks, something that is always nice to have as a clean-up mechanism. One good aspect of Terrakion that I later discovered was the usefulness of Justified when possessed by a support/switch-in for Latios against Pokemon, such as Tyranitar, that carry Crunch.


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    At this point in team-building, it was apparent that I would need some Special offense so Skarmory and its Defensive buddies wouldn’t completely wall me. After some testing, I decided to go with Jolteon over Thundurus-T. Both possessed Volt Absorb, both had only one weakness, both had impressive Special Attack stats, both had impressive Speeds, but Jolteon came out on top because of its better Speed and movepool. Now, I had a great counter for Defensive walls, specifically Skarmory, while also having a fast Pokemon to outrun the likes of Alakazam, which would be undoubtedly problematic.


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    With the three offensive titans supporting Latios, I felt like the team could use some bulk to balance out the team. The first thing that popped into my mind was the need of a Spinner because it was evident that I’d be doing a lot of switching. Initially, I used by all-time favorite Tentacruel, but it brought too many weaknesses, many of which were doubled up with other team members, making it more of a liability. So, I decided to experiment with Donphan, a Spinner I had seen used often, but never had used myself. Donphan’s enormous Attack really brought the team something Tentacruel hadn’t before it. Along with that, Donphan possessed Sturdy and priority attacks while also providing another possible switch-in for Electric-type attacks, making it so that Jolteon’s entrance wasn’t as predictable as before.


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Seeing that Tentacruel’s removal from the team really removed the need for counters to Electric-types, I decided to add in a Pokemon I had previously turned down in favor of Blissey. Jellicent made a reappearance in my team, serving as a wonderful wall while also bringing to good coverage STAB moves. Along with that, Jellicent also shut down Ferrothorn, which had been problematic during testing. Now, I could Taunt Ferrothorn and switch in a more offensive Pokemon, knowing that a weak attack, such as Power Whip, was coming.



    [​IMG] A Closer Look [​IMG]


    The MVP

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Latios (M) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd|Timid Nature|IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    Draco Meteor|Psyshock|Surf|Hidden Power [Fire]


    Latios is the MVP of the team, with the whole team essentially revolving around elimination Pokemon that don't take super effective damage from Latios or that can KO Latios before Latios KOs them. Latios is equipped with moves aiming to hit a large chunk of common Pokemon for super effective damage. Hidden Power Fire allows Latios to KO most common Steel-types, notably Skarmory, Forreterss and Scizor. Surf comes in handy against Heatran, among other Pokemon, along with other Fire-types, such as Infernape, and the likes of Landorus and Gliscor. Psyshock is excellent for walls, such as Amoonguss, as well as offensive threats along the lines of Breloom and Choice Band Terrakion. Draco Meteor only provides coverage against Dragon-types, but its primary purpose is to hit for neutral damage when switching out would be too risky. Draco Meteor replaced Dragon Pulse at Alexander's recommendation primarily because Dragon Pulse is relatively weak when hitting for neutral damage in comparison to Draco Meteor, although the latter does demand switch to get rid of stat decreases. I chose Expert Belt over Life Orb because most people are expecting a Choice Scarfed/Specd Latios, so Expert Belt allows Latios to bluff a Choice item, possibly picking up additional KOs. In regards to to the role occupied by Latios, it will more often than note serve as a late game sweeper, leading only when at least 4 Pokemon on the opponent's team are weak to a move possessed by Latios.

    The Offensive Support

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Heracross @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd|Jolly Nature
    Close Combat|Megahorn|Night Slash|Stone Edge


    Heracross is the first part of a 3 Pokemon offensive core. Although it may seem like a better idea to give Heracross a Choice Band rather than a Choice Scarf, the extra speed is preferred in this case because of the target Pokemon that Heracross is meant to counter. There are 2 main reasons I chose Heracross over the more common Bug-type, Scizor. Heracross has a much better movepool, allowing better coverage of counters to Latios, while also possessing a STAB type more useful than Steel. The second reason for selecting Heracross is Moxie. Although Moxie may seem useless with Choice Scarf, it can be quite wonderful if bluffed properly. If Heracross first KOs a Pokemon slower than itself without a Scarf, the opponent may unknowingly send out a Pokemon that would only further use Moxie because they aren't aware of the Choice Scarf. In regards to the moves I chose, I was attempting to maximize coverage of my MVP's weaknesses. Megahorn and Close Combat are obvious choices, due to their STAB and high base power along with the fact that they hit a large portion of common Pokemon for super effective. Night Slash is mainly on the set to deal with Ghost-types which are insanely annoying otherwise. I decided to go with Stone Edge over Sleep Talk for the final move because I wanted coverage against Fire-types, although the latter would make Heracross a great switch-in against Breloom.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Terrakion @ Choice Band
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd|Jolly Nature
    Close Combat|Stone Edge|Sandstorm|Quick Attack


    Terrakion may initially seem repetitive because it carries two of the same moves as Heracross but there are three things that it brought to the table that Heracross didn't. The first is priority in the form of Quick Attack which serves as a great clean-up mechanism. Next, it brought insanely high Attack and Speed, making choice Band a more viable option. Finally, it had Justified, which can be insanely useful against moves like Crunch when they appear, boosting Terrakion's Attack even more. Apart from these things, Alexander pointed out another way Terrakion could distinguish itself from Heracross: Sandstorm. Sandstorm allowed Terrakion to serve as an anti-weather lead in some cases and a late-game game changer in others. Against Chlorophyll sweepers, Terrakion can switch the weather first turn when people call back Ninetales and send out Venusaur, Sawsbuck or Lilligant. Also, many people suicide weather inducers, in a sense, when they are against weatherless teams, allowing Terrakion to pop in late game and switch the weather, possibly deciding the game.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Thundurus-T @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 4 HP/ 252 SAtk / 252 Spd|Timid Nature
    Nasty Plot|Agility|Thunderbolt|Hidden Power [Ice]


    Thundurus-T had initially been turned down in favor of Jolteon, however, at Electrolyte's recommendation, I tried out a different Thundurus set and it had huge success. This set essentially gave Thundurus a lot of space to adapt to the game and the opponent's team. Against defensive and Rain teams, Thundurus could chose to boost its Special Attack using Nasty Plot, allowing it to tank through Rain teams and many defensive Pokemon (not Blissey, of course). On the other hand, if I was up against a more offensive team or a Sun team, Thundurus could use Agility to outrun opposing sweepers, most notably Chlorophyll Venusaur, and hit it with a super effective hidden Power Ice, boosted by Expert Belt. For other general use, Thundurus carries STAB Thunderbolt which deals a ton of damage with +2 Special Attack. Howerver, the extra destructive power provided by Life Orb makes it very appealing, especially with the possibility of HP recovery with Volt Absorb. However, that is very situation so I decide not to use Life Orb so far.


    The Defensive Support

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Heatran @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd|Calm Nature|IVs: 0 Atk
    Stealth Rock|Lava Plume|Toxic|Roar



    Heatran is the first part of the defensive part of my team, mainly on here to help deal with weather teams, Sun teams in specific. Although other Pokemon in my team could hold a good offensive against Sun teams, they would definitely struggle to deal with common sweepers such as Venusaur. So, that is where Heatran comes in, to completely wall the Special sweepers. This spot was originally taken by Donphan but I switched Heatran into this spot at Novaray's recommendation. Although a Spinner seemed necessary, having only one weakness to entry hazards didn't support this notion. For this reason, I decided to utilize this spot to better counter Sun teams, specifically Venusaur. That is the primary reason why I am running a Specially Defensive variant of Heatran, aiming to take as many of Venusaur's hits along with possible Earth Powers and Hidden Power Grounds, while dishing out as much damage as possible with Lava Plume. Toxic allows me to inflict lasting damage on opponents while also trying to force a switch without having to use Roar, which is there just as a back up plan. Stealth Rock is also on this set to maximize lasting damage because every member of my team appreciates additional damage to make their job easier.


    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Jellicent @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 140 SDef / 116 Spd|Calm Nature|IVs: 0 Atk
    Will-O-Wisp|Recover|Taunt|Scald


    Jellicent plays a key defensive role on this team, dealing with both offensive and defensive Pokemon. Water Absorb makes Jellicent extremely useful against Raint teams while also picking up free HP recovery in many cases. In regards to countering defensive Pokemon, Jellicent can shut down Pokemon along the lines of Ferrothorn and Blissey with Taunt. In the case of Ferrothorn, Taunt guarantees an attack next turn, usually Power Whip, allowing me to switch to an offensive Pokemon to give me an upperhand. Scald and Will-O-Wisp allow me to deal with common threats to LAtios, such as Tyranitar and Scizor, effectively nullifying their usefulness with a burn. The latter mvoe was initially Shadow Ball, but was changed at Alexander's recommendation due to the ineffectiveness of Shadow Ball on Jellicent. Recover is mainly on this set to stall and increase Jellicent's longevity, seeing that it is vital to the team and will need to switch in often.

    [​IMG] Last Glance [​IMG]
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    [​IMG] Conclusion [​IMG]

    Thanks for reading and I really appreciate that you took the time to look over my team and hopefully provide me with some help. Just to give you a few tips on what to try to fix, I seem to have difficulty with Mamoswine and Landorus-T when they are well supported, so if you see anything that could help in that regards without totally throwing off the team, I’d really appreciate that. Also, Jellicent’s defensive position sometimes makes me doubt it on this team, as it really slows it down sometimes, so a suggestion in that regards would also be greatly appreciated. That is all I can think of off the top of my head so I hope you can point out other problems and give me some solutions to that too. Once again, thank you for reading and helping, I hope you liked the team and, if you did, I’d really appreciate it if you dropped a Luvdisc to prove it. Thank you all!

    [​IMG] Exportable [​IMG]

    Show Hide
    Latios (M) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Surf
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Heracross @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Megahorn
    - Night Slash
    - Stone Edge

    Terrakion @ Choice Band
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Sandstorm
    - Quick Attack

    Thundurus-T @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Nasty Plot
    - Agility
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    -Stealth Rock
    -Lava Plume
    -Toxic
    -Roar

    Jellicent @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 140 SDef / 116 Spd
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Taunt
    - Scald
  2. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Messages:
    885
    I can not see any major weakness from just looking at it. I will test with it and get back with a more in depth rate.
    First, you need to change Latios Atk. iv's to 30 for Base 70 power.
  3. Derpinator

    Derpinator

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Messages:
    173
    Okay, thank you, I'd really appreciate that!
  4. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2009
    Messages:
    660
    Actually for a base 70 HP Fire on Latios, while also having the lowest Attack IV possible for confusion/Foul Play, the IV spread is 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe. It's nice to see someone else who is smart and drops the Atk IVs as low as possible. However, as if it mattered, but currently there is no reason outside of different RNG-ing to drop your physical attackers SpA IVs, being that there is no "confusion status that uses your SpA" or "Foul Play using your SpA" as of right now. Maybe Gen VI will change that... XD

    From my glance, it would look like a well played Scizor has the potential to give you grief. While Jellicent can stop CB well, with hazards that Scizor and VoltTurn often bring with it your Jelli could get worn down/forced out easily. SD Scizor variants also look dangerous. Not sure what can be done on that, though. I'm just highlighting something I see in my lil glance. I'm mainly commenting for the IV thing.
  5. Lan119

    Lan119

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    9
    I know that this is my first post, but don't take that as a lack of experience. I do think you have a pretty solid team here. I like the idea of using strong choiced pokemon to blow large wholes in teams so that you can set up for a sweep with you Latios. Also, the idea of having a defensive core to fall back down on just in case disaster strikes. However, I guess that you felt that there is room for improvement or you wouldn't have posted the team here.

    My first instinct is to say that you probably have trouble with bulky grass types such as Celebi and Ferrothorn because of their bulk and you inability to be able to really threaten these guys without taking some damage in return. Yes, you can switch your Latios into Celebi, but you risk getting hit by a toxic, or thunder wave, which will cost you your most important Pokemon. A similar idea with Ferrothorn, in that yes Terrakion and Heracross can switch in, but repeated Gyro Balls, Power Whips, or Thunder Waves will really hurt your team. You also listed powerful ground types, especially those with a very strong EarthQuake because your two ground resist, Heracross and Latios, often have trouble dealing with the secondary typing or the team support that is designed to beat those type of pokemon. Also, I think you would have trouble with strong dragons such as SubHydreigon or CBHaxorus because your lack a resist to the main STAB.

    The solution to these problems are pretty simple. First, I suggest switching your Specs Jolteon to a Specs Starmie with Trick, Surf, Ice Beam, and Rapid Spin/Thunder Bolt.


    Starmie @ Choice Specs | Natural Cure
    Timid | 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Trick | Surf | Ice Beam | Rapid Spin/ThunderBolt

    This set allows you trick you Specs on to the pesky grass types that Starmie attracts. It also helps you to revenge some Dragons, while remaining a very potent offensive threat. It can also knock out Blissey, and Chansey, while weakening some of Latios checks, such as a Scizor.

    I also think that you should replace Donaphon with a Skarmory. Donaphon is a solid spinner and a great switch into Tyranitar, but besides those aspects, it really doesn't do much to help a team that Skarmory can't. Skarmory provides you with a great switch into powerful ground types, while being effective against grass types and dragons. It can also also set up hazards and Starmie can become your rapid spinner.

    Skarmory @ Shed Shell / Leftovers | Sturdy
    Impish | 224 HP / 252 Def / 32 SpDef
    Brave Bird | Roost | Whirlwind | Spikes

    The set is very straight forward. Pick your item passed on your fear of DragMag teams and the moves and EVs are all standard.

    And two more things. One, this is more of a nitpick, but I have always preferred to use Pursuit on Heracross over Night Slash because I would rather kill the fleeing pokemon. Also I am sorry that this is not nearly as neat as some of the other rates and for that I apologize. I'm just not that experienced with how to neaten posts.
  6. ZeoAbyss

    ZeoAbyss

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    Messages:
    95
    After terrakion get's a rock polish and hazards are set you get 6-0 brother
  7. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I could hear the sirens sound
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Mentor

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    Hey, I got your request.

    There are a couple of things I can see that look quite threatening to your team. Lavos Sun is a big threat; Venasaur with HP Fire and Giga Drain can deal a lot of damage to this team, and your sweepers will have a hard time getting past SpDef Ninetales / Heatran after Duggy is used to trap and kill Terrak. It seems as if bulky grass types like Celebi can be a bit annoying too; SpDef Celebi can sit its butt down and just plain wall your Jellicent / Donphan, and weaken your sweepers with hazards. You also lack solid wallbreakers to Jirachi / Ferrothorn / Tentacruel in Rain. Rotom-W also looks problematic, its Volt switching and good special bulk with WoW can cripple a big portion of your team. You also lack Dragon attack sponges, giving opposing Dragon types an easy time should they set up.

    I think Jolteon can be replaced with a better pokemon. You lack a late game cleaner, one that can setup and knock down walls / survivors with powerful coverage moves. Although Jolteon is fast, it lacks power and coverage, and is unable to take the role of wallbreaker. Instead of Jolteon, I think you should try Nast Plot Thundurus-T. Nast Plot Thundurus-T has the same VoltAbsorbing abilities as Jolteon, but it hits a whole lot harder with more powerful coverage moves, and can setup and break down walls for Latios.

    Thundurus-T @ Expert Belt
    Timid / 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Nasty Plot / Agility / Thunderbolt / Hidden Power


    Thundurus's good speed and ability to sweep after just one turn makes it a good candidate for Jolteon's spot, imo. It can break down common cores / defensive teams, opening up opportunities for Latios or your fighting types to come in. It can also defeat Grass types and Sun teams, setting up according to your needs. Against defensive teams, you can Nasty Plot and hit with immense power to damage opponents. Against offensive teams, you can Agility to outspeed and KO sun / sand speed sweepers. Or, if given the chance, you can set up both, and proceed to hit powerfully and quickly. Expert Belt gives you an extra oomph in power and can let you feign choice.

    Since your team has trouble handling Dragon types, I'd make Donphan a bit more bulky. A spread of 252 HP / 4Atk / 252 Def Impish would work better, imo. Max defense lets you tank as many physical attacks as you need, and revenge kill with Ice Shard.

    Other than that, you look good. I hope I helped!
  8. BlackLight

    BlackLight

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    667
    Yo Derpinator, pretty good team you got here, couple little things though. How much are you using X-Scissor on Terrakion? Seems to me as though its a wasted moveslot, especially since you have a ScarfCross, and a neutral Close Combat actually does more than a super effective X-Scissor. I'd opt for Rock Slide instead, to give Terrakion a more reliable Rock STAB, for when you can't chance Stone Edge missing, you know? Another option is the use of Signal Beam over Shadow Ball on Jolteon. None of the Ghost types near OU like Jolteon's other coverage moves, and Signal Beam offers more coverage, notably hitting Celebi, who can do a bit of work on your team, seeing as very little would like to switch into it if it gets in. This might seem a little contrary to what I said earlier, but it is a better coverage move than Shadow Ball for Jolteon, who doesn't really have tons of useful moves.
    TLDR; Terrakion, run Rock Slide over X-Scissor.
    Jolteon, run Signal Beam over Shadow Ball
    Everything seems rather solid, I've got nothing else to add. Good luck.
  9. Derpinator

    Derpinator

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Messages:
    173
    Thank you very much for that point on the IVs. I gave Latios 2 more Atk IVs while taking off all the IV changes from the physical attackers because they are unnecessary. Scizor hasn't been a problem so far but I can see how it would be a problem once Jellicent goes down, so I'm going to have to look into that and hopefully somebody can point something out in that regards as well. Thanks again!

    Thank you for those tips, they do make sense. The only problem with Starmie is that I personally don't like it because it doesn't have a wonderful Special Attack while also being rather frail. Also, I try to avoid using Trick because I find that there is too much room for that to go wrong, probably juts because I am me, but I'd rather not take that risk. In regards to Skarmory, I have been thinking about that and I may try to factor him in because of threats such as Mamoswine, Landorus and the earlier mention Scizor, so I'll see what I can do there. Thanks again!

    I agree with the Donphan suggestion and have nothing to say against it. Although a strong Ice Shard is nice, Donphan's main purpose is defense, so I should focus on that rather than trying to make it offensive in a defensive position. Thundurus-T was something that I considered early on but turned down in favor of Jolteon. But, now that you have recommended it, I gave it another try with your set instead of the LO set I had tried and I am liking it much more. So, I have decided to replace Jolteon with your recommended Thundurus. Thank you for your help!

    Now that you mention it, I have only actually used X-Scissor on Terrakion once, so I suppose it wouldn't hurt to run Rock Slide over X-Scissor, mainly because I have missed some crucial kills because Stone Edge missed and Rock Slide could have done the job in those cases. So, that is a definite change. As for Jolteon, I am dropping him altogether in favor of NP Agility Thundurus-T. Thanks for your help!

    Changes:
    [​IMG]
    - IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd ---> 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd

    [​IMG]
    - IVs: 0 SAtk ---> IVs: 31 SAtk
    - X-Scissor ---> Rock Slide

    [​IMG] ---> [​IMG]
    Thundurus-T Set
    Show Hide

    Thundurus-T @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Nasty Plot
    - Agility
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power Ice


    [​IMG]
    - EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd ---> 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
  10. Nova

    Nova Samsung Alpaca
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
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    Messages:
    1,521
    Hi Derpinator

    This is a cool offensive team you have here. I like the fact that you aren't afraid to branch out and use some sets that are not especially common in the OU metagame such as Exper Belt Latios and Choice Scarf Heracross. Looking at your team, it is threatened by Quiver Dance Volcarona. Volcarona can set up a Quiver Dance against Heracross locked into a resisted attack, Donphan, Thundurus-T, and can get a Dance in against Jellicent before you can Taunt it. After a Quiver Dance, Volcarona outspeeds your entire team and can easily sweep with its coverage of Fire STAB, Bug Buzz, and Giga Drain. Another threat to your team is Chlorophyll Venusaur. Under Sun, Venusaur outspeeds your entire team and can hit very hard with STAB Giga Drain and Sun boosted HP Fire while dealing with Latios with either Sleep Powder or Sludge Bomb. Choice Specs Latios is also intimidating for your team to face. Without a Steel type, every time Latios comes in, something is going down to Draco Meteor. Scarf variants are also tough as he now outspeeds your entire team and can cripple Jellicent by Tricking him a Scarf. For these threats, I suggest replacing Donphan with a Specially Defensive Heatran with a moveset of Stealth Rock / Lava Plume / Toxic / Roar. Heatran is one of the best checks to Volcarona as he 4x resists Bug and Grass and is immune to Fire. He can then wear down the moth with Toxic or simply Roar it out. Heatran also checks Venusaur and can eliminate it with Lava Plume. Occasionally, Volcarona and Venusaur carry surprise Ground type attacks to surprise Heatran, HP Ground in the case of the former and Earthquake for the latter. For this, you can use Air Balloon as the item on Heatran which also allows him to avoid being trapped by Dugtrio. Heatran also makes a solid check to Latios as he can switch into Dragon type attacks with his massive Special bulk and Steel typing and then cripple Latios with Toxic. I feel that Donphan is the most replaceable member on your team as Rapid Spin is not crucial for your team. Thundurus-T is your only member that is weak to Stealth Rock and he isn't going to be taking much hits anyways. I think your team is offensive enough to apply pressure on your opponent to prevent them from getting up much if any entry hazards against you.

    Hope I helped and good luck with your team!


    Set:
    Show Hide
    Heatran (M) @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    -Stealth Rock
    -Lava Plume
    -Toxic
    -Roar



    tl;dr
    Show Hide
    Donphan ----> Specially Defensive Heatran
  11. Derpinator

    Derpinator

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Messages:
    173
    Thank you so much for the help! Your changes make sense and so far they have been working, although I do miss Sturdy, really came in useful in certain situations but it is more important to deal with the threats.

    Possible Changes:
    [​IMG] ---> [​IMG]
    Heatran Set
    Show Hide

    Heatran (M) @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
    Calm Nature
    -Stealth Rock
    -Lava Plume
    -Toxic
    -Roar


    I am going to make this change only if I feel that the loss of a Spinner isn't too detrimental to this team. The point that Novaray brought up in regards to the lack of a dire need for a Spinner seems valid, but I want to test it out a bit before actually making a change.
  12. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
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    Hi, this is a really cool weatherless team in my opinion. Let's share my thoughts on it !

    First, a word for the past changes, I really don't support the Heatran change. With this change, you got no rock resistance and this is always a little annoying in a metagame where Terrakion is so present. Basically, it means that he can spam Stone Edge recklessly. Finally, it does not even really fix yours issues against Sun teams because they're always packing a solid answer to a classic Heatran (Duggy).
    I don't really like Thundurus-T without Rain (without Thunder) because you lose quite a lot of power. Most of the time, you'll end up boosting but unable to really sweep like you should. And, I'm not a big fan of a two dimensions team where you pair a really offensive core with a really defensive one. But it can work ! And I'll help to make it happen hopefully !


    For the weaknesses :

    - As Electrolyte said, and as Novaray repeated, you're weak to Sun sweepers, I won't bother repeating it.

    - Electrolyte also said that you're "weak" to Celebi and this is true because your answer to kill it is Heracross, who is scarf. He also spoke about Dragons, which is obvious and true since you lack a Dragon resistance.

    - Breloom. Since your 2 man's core is weak to it, and since the rest of your team isn't really bulky, you're weak to the Shroom. Basically, he can come on Donphan and Spore anybody. Then Bullet Seed and for instance, if it hits 5 times he even kills Latios. The point is, your defensive core leaves a flaw, and this flaw will put a big pressure of the rest of your team as you struggle to answer it.

    - Gengar is a pain, he kills Jellicent, he sits all day on Donphan and kill it. Moreover, you have 2 "locked" Fighting types, and a Bug spammer. I can REALLY see Gengar coming easily on anybody and subbing.. behind a sub, he'll really be a bitch. For instance, he can kill Thundurus-T in one hit after SR, he outspeeds Latios (remember, you have 30 IVs in Speed !), outspeed and kill Terrakion and of course crush your defensive core. Only Heracross can take a hit, but well, it's not like he got Pursuit.

    To be honest, I can't really change so easily your team to deal with Gengar, but I see a way to deal with the other threats, and "soften" a little the Gengar's issue.


    My changes :

    - First, I'd REALLY swap Thundurus-T to Landorus Rock Polish. I really don't see the point of Thundurus-T. Basically, Landorus got a better typing and you'll have more power (even after Nasty Plot, given the poor moves of Thundurus-T outside of Rain). Moreover, I'll explain it later, but you get a stronger weapong against Sun Teams. In a nutshell, you can either go for the easy but not really effective solution to stack defensive pokemons like Heatran, or make sure than the pokemons you're weak to never set-up. If Landorus is at +2, Venusaur is doomed, and you can most of the time, kill the whole sun team. However, one could say that you get even weaker to Gengar, but HP Ice still deals a decent chunk, and you can totally use Psychic on your Landorus (you get then a good lure to Gengar).

    - I'd also change Donphan to Jirachi. A pretty simple change, you need a Steel to set SR and help your team against most of the match-ups. Jirachi can do this just fine. He can spread paralysis, take Dragons hits (and the Surfs under Rain that Latios could throw). You're not totally "deadweight" against Duggy because you can paralyse him on the switch, or take a EQ and paralysis then kill him. You can even take an HP Fire from an unboosted Venusaur and try to Paralyse him ! But, keep in mind that Jirachi isn't here to deal with Sun teams, and gives many tools that your team could enjoy.
    And, you're not weak as before to Breloom (Heatran/Donphan gets killed easily by the Shroom).
    The lack of a spinner, will really not be an issue, since Landorus isn't weak to SR like Thundurus-T!

    - Now, I'd "swap" Heracross and Terrakion roles. Scarf Terrakion hits a really good tier, giving you the upper hand against Salamence for instance, or Garchomp.. and Volcarona.
    Now.. in fact I would not play Band Heracross, but another yet interesting version. I'd really like you to try a Sub/SD Heracross with a Berry. Now, you can come on Celebi, and Sub as he switches. Then you have the choice, get the speed boost from the Salac berry or Sword Dance to break walls. This set gives you some good surprise value that your team seems to lack overall.
    Moreover, you can set-up like hell on a Breloom by baiting the Spore, it works of course for many other situations. Basically, the wall breaking power here is huge, especially against Stall Teams, this set should be really useful in this match-up (or when your Latios gets traped by Ttar !).

    - I'd also get Recover instead on HP Fire on Latios. Now you tie with Gengar and other Lati@s. You don't really need HP Fire because Ferrothorn is set-up bait for your sweepers, Jirachi takes a pity from it most of the time, Skarmory takes a bunch from Surf already, Bronzong isn't worth the slot etc.. So all in all, having the possibility to Recover the damages while you're bluffing a choiced set can be more valuable in my opinion. And, it helps once again against Breloom and Venusaur in most of the possible scenarios.

    THE SETS :

    Show Hide


    [​IMG]
    Heracross @ Salac Berry
    Moxie / Swarm
    32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Megahorn
    - Substitute
    - Sword Dance

    Self-made EVs, I wanted to outspeed base 80 speed.. and finally why not outspeed Gyarados who sits at 81 too.

    [​IMG]
    Landorus @ Life Orb
    Sheer Force
    60 HP / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Rock Polish
    - Earth Power
    - Focus Blast
    - HP Ice / Psychic (mainly for Gar, could help against a full health Keldeo.. you'll be hardcore walled by Lati@s and Celebi however, which is not so good, that's why I'd still opt for HP Ice)

    Classic, with a little speed creep.

    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Serene Grace
    240 HP / 24 Def / 204 SpD / 36 Spe
    Careful Nature
    - Body Slam
    - Iron Head
    - Stealth Rocks
    - Wish

    The minimal investment in Def helps to NEVER be OHKO'd by Chomp (without a boosting item), this could come handy. You also get a good HP number, a little speed creep etc.


    This is "all", I know it seems to be a lot of changes (well in fact it's just about swaping roles between two pokemons, getting another SRer and another SweepBoosting sweeper, I change NOTHING in the skeleton of your team), but in the end you're the one chosing and not me ! I'm just giving my opinion, you're a grown-up, do what you want with my rate !
    Good luck in any case !


    TL;DR :

    Show Hide
    Landorus RP > Thundurus-T
    Heracross Sub/SD > Scarf
    Terrakion Scarf > CB
    Donphan > Jirachi
    Latios => Recover > HP Fire
  13. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
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    885
    I would not change Donphan if I were you. While testing yesterday, having Ice Shard really came in handy. In a few battles I was able to take out at least 3 mons with Ice Shard that would have otherwise outsped the rest ofthe team
  14. Alexander.

    Alexander. Banned deucer.

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,835
    Hello, got your request.

    Heracross isn't very common nowadays so props for using it. However, I have some advice to give you so let's go with the rate. Well, first of all, as already Nowaray said, your team is weak to Volcarona, to Venusaur and it has some problem against Choice Specs Latios. Therefore, I'd going with Nowaray's suggestion to use Special Defensive Heatran replacing Donphan, which is a great counter for any version of Volcarona without Hidden Power Ground which isn't very common, for Venusaur without Earthquake and for Choice Specs Latios. I'd use the set that Nowaray already posted but probably I'd use a different item because Air Ballon doesn't seem a very useful on Special Defensive since it must tank many hits during the matches, therefore I suggest you to use Leftovers, it gives Heatran more staying power which is always useful or Shed Shell which allows Heatran to avoid Dugtrio's Arena Trap since as you probably know, Dugtrio is a good partner for Volcarona and Venusaur and it's common in the sun teams in general. Then, on Latios I suggest you to use Draco Meteor replacing Dragon Pulse because it has simple more fire power than Dragon Pulse and because Latios can't lack Draco Meteor since it's his strongest move. Next, I'd change Thundurus-T's EV spread into 152 HP / 252 SAtk / 104 Spd because this EV spread allows you to have more bulkyness which is always useful and because also with this EV spread Thundurus-T can outspeed all the relevant threats after an Agility. After that, I suggest you to change Jellicent's EV spread into EVs: 252 HP / 140 SDef / 116 Spd and I suggest you to use Will-O-Wisp replacing Shadow Ball. With this EV spread, Jellicent outspeeds both Scizor and Choice Band Tyranitar and burns them with Will-O-Wisp and if Scizor and Tyranitar are burned, Expert Belt Latios can sweep more easily. In general, I suggest you to use Will-O-Wisp replacing Shadow Ball on Jellicent because you don't need Shadow Ball at all, and because Will-O-Wisp is simple better than SB since it's useful in more chances than SB and because it's a more reliable move to burn than Scald. As last thing, I suggest you to try Sandstorm replacing Rock Slide on Terrakion, probably this seems a strange change but when opponent's weather changer dies, you can use Sandstorm and then you can win more easily. When the opponent sees a weatherless, he usually decided to sacrificate his weather summoner at the first occasion thinking that it isn't useful against a weatherless team and you can take advantage of this using Sandstorm, this change is optional but in my opinion isn't a bad idea since Sandstorm can be useful in more chances than Rock Slide so I suggest you to try it.

    gl.
  15. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,301
    Hello!

    I really don't see the concepts of spinblocking to keep up only one hazard (SR). Furthermore, Jellicent doesn't really do much besides spinblock imo. Sure, I suppose it can stop Keldeo, but its not really offensive and that bugs me. Furthermore, the concepts of a spinner for this team are also lost on me. ThundyT doesn't really mind them unless it was the VSwitch variant, and your DubDance.

    Before I suggest changes though, I'm going to fix some of your sets. Namely that Thundurus-T. Shame on you that spread is terrible for ThundyT! (its okay though since I used to use it too before I knew better). I would use 40 Hp / 96 Def / 252 SpA / 16 SDef / 104 Spe (Modest), with the item choice of Leftovers. This spread allows it to set up much more easilly (Ice Shard from Donphan does 29% and Mamoswine's does 58% just so you have an idea of its bulk).

    The lack of a steel type really makes me fret those Specs Lati@s. I would replace Donphan for SR Jirachi. Jirachi serves as a great Venusaur check (lives HP Fire at +0 and can BS or TWave back) and its a great means of tanking those Dragon spamming attacks. A simple EV spread of 36 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe (Adamant) is a nice offensive spread that can tank a few Dragon hits just fine. Use Iron Head / Stealth Rock / Wish / Body Slam as your moves, those should suffice for support as well as being a good offensive pivot.

    Additionally, you're awfully weak to sun even if Jirachi can check Venu (and that's a big push on my part). I would replace EB Latios for LO Latias. I really hate making this change since the title implies you really want to keep it, but team wise, Latias is superior since it can check sun a lot better (as well as Keldeo). Using a simple 72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe (Timid) should suffice for both bulk and strength.

    Ok so my last changes are going to be a bit past rating but I think that my changes are your team but more offensive so I will suggest them anyway. I would replace Jellicent for Specs Politoed and then switch Band Terrakion to SubSalac Rak. Specs Politoed helps with sun in general as well as not leaving you so Band TTar weak that my changes make, as well as changing Terrakion to SubSalac so its a better fighter towards Sand. Politoed does more than Jellicent since its overall does more while Latias is a great check to Keldeo now.

    It might seem like a lot but I feel they are necessary. GL!
  16. Eranu

    Eranu

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2011
    Messages:
    382
    Hey Derpinator,

    Cool team you got there. First thing that stands out is the lack of a steel-type. I don't feel like Volcarona is as big of a threat, but Venusaur and opposing Lati@s are. Therefore I'd like to second Novaray's suggestion of running Heatran over Donphan. This'll give you a reliable switch in to both of those threats so you don't have to sack a 'mon everytime they come in. This change does open you up to physical threats like opposing Terrakion and DD Dragons. Heracross isn't exactly a fast scarfer so scarfed or +1 'mons can outspeed it and threaten you. The best you can do now is lure it into Outrageing and Toxic them with Heatran, which won't work against DD dragons as they usually have Lum Berry. Making two changes could solve this: Band Terrakion -> Scarf Terrakion & Heracross -> Band Scizor. I don't really see Heracross as necessary to the team. The only thing that stands out to it is Moxie and Mega Horn. I feel like Scizor would be a better choice for that slot. It can take out Terrakion with Bullet Punch and can actually punish dragons locked into Outrage unlike Heatran. It'll also provide you with more momentum thanks to U-turn. Because of this change you would lack a revenge killer and you would still be weak to Fire Punch Dragonite, which can be solved by making Terrakion your revenge killer. Also, run 30 Speed IVs on Scizor so you get the second U-turn on other Scizors so you gain switch advantage.

    Hope I helped. Good luck.
  17. Derpinator

    Derpinator

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
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    Show Hide



    Let me start off by saying thank you to everyone for their help, I really appreciate it! I read through all the recommendations and have tested most of them and only have a few left. Here is pretty much what I have decided in regards to these changes.
    [​IMG]
    I decided to do a little bit of testing with Latias even though I was strongly against the change since Latios is the MVP of this team and the whole team was pretty much made to support Expert Belt Latios. The one thing that I found through this testing was that my team greatly appreciated Sun counters, so I kept that in mind when considering the other changes. I tested LO on Latios as well, once again against it, and I decided not to go with it because Latios runs Expert Belt to bluff a Choice item and LO recoil destroys that bluff. However, Recover did come in useful a few times, although it is more useful for LO recoil, so I will continue testing that since it has some promise but Hidden Power Fire was something I desired many times when I ran Recover instead.

    [​IMG]
    I am still testing the Sub/SD Heracross with Berry and so far it is iffy because set up opportunities are hard to come by against good players but, when I get the opportunity, Heracross did immense damage. So, I will continue testing this to see which one I'd chose.

    [​IMG]
    I tried Choice Scarf over Choice Band but decided to stick with Choice Band mainly because I am assuming Heracross is Scarfed so I'd like the extra punch that Band provides. The changes that I am going to go with is the Sandstorm recommendation. It does spectacularly against Sun teams because I lead with Terrakion and they lead with Ninetales and then switch to a Chlorophyll sweeper on the same turn that I set up Sandstorm.

    [​IMG]
    I have been testing out Landorus in place of Thundurus and am not very satisfied. Thundurus deals huge blows early on against Rain teams that are not expecting Nasty Plot and/or Agility and Landorus cannot do this nearly as well if all. Also, by removing Thundurus, I have no solid offensive counter to Rain teams, which is a big problem due to the abundance of rain. I am working with the recommended EV spreads and haven't found convincing evidence against or for them over the current one, so I'll keep testing them. In regards to Leftovers over Expert Belt, I personally want to keep Expert Belt because it comes in handy against Dragonite, which is OHKOed after one Nasty Plot by Hidden Power Ice.

    [​IMG] ---> [​IMG]
    This switch is almost completely guaranteed because Heatran provides excellent Sun counter on this team, something that so far Terrakion is responsible for. Terrakion does a great job of it, but Heatran does it better even if the Sun is up while also being a check against Dragon-types, a mentioned problem.

    [​IMG]
    I still feel that Jellicent can be replaced by a better Water-type, but I'd rather not go with Politoed because I want to keep permanent weather off the team. So, in regards to changes, I will be changing Shadow Ball to Will-O-Wisp as suggested because it really does wonders, especially with the recommended EV spread.

    I will be updating the original post later, possibly/probably with better descriptions in regards to each Pokemon's role in the team.
  18. Derpinator

    Derpinator

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
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    Finished updating original post, any more feedback?

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