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The Legacy Begins

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by BorderHusky, Jun 13, 2012.

  1. BorderHusky

    BorderHusky

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    Messages:
    6
    Currently at rank #73 at 1170 Points
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    INTRODUCTION
    Hello Smogon,
    This is my first RMT EVER! I have fallen in love with competitive battling recently and decided that I would attempt to create a strong team in every tier. I decided to start with NU since it is the lowest tier and many of my favorite pokes haven fallen into this tier. I have changed up this team many times and finally feel that it is presentable. I am also looking for advice from the experts :D


    TEAM BUILDING
    Show Hide
    First Team
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    This team was originally based around an Absol sweep. I had mixed success with the team, but in the end didn't enjoy using Absol. My opponent seemed to play around him, but I did realize that Specs Magmortar and Scarf Sawk posed an immediate threat...they were the star members of the team.
    Changes #1
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    After some lurking on the forums, I decided to replace Absol with Shelgon attempting to take a bulkier approach to sweeping. I swept late game more, but found the sleep talk set unreliable. After playing for awhile I noticed that toxic spikes could become quite threatening and decided to try it out myself with Garbodor. Garbodor also helped me to take on opposing fighting types in the tier. Finally, I added Bastiodon because he replaced my stealth rock user and i needed a special wall.
    Changes #2
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    In an attempt to make the team stronger I removed Musharna for Gardevoir. I used this team for only a few matches because i felt as though Musharna was much more useful in the long run
    Changes #3
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    I quickly got rid of Gardevoir and placed in Musharna. I didn't like using garbodor and wanted a physically bulky poke with recovery. I came to tangela which is a total beast. With regenerator tangela becomes impossible to kill on the physical side. The team was rather sturdy at this point, but was still only about even with my original team.
    HUGE CHANGE
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    My walls were failing me constantly so I went back to Golem and Cryogonal. This allowed me to get Magmortar in more with rapid spin on Cryogonal. That choice specs fire blast will dent anything in the tier. While my Golem provided a lead and a reliable check to any birds in the tier bar Braviary. One thing i did notice was that golem would be worn down quickly by the physical attackers in NU especially the water and fighting types.
    Additions #1
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    Quagsire is key to this team. He provides a check to physically based setup sweepers and allows me to keep my golem alive incase of baton pass teams(usually has bug types) or the powerful birds. This is my most valued wall on the team and helped me out of many situations.
    Additions #2
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    I wanted a pokemon that could smash through a weakened team and a reliable check to shell smash. I noticed that Ludicolo had dropped to NU and now was my chance to exploit it. After Magmortar dents any special walls on the opposing team. Ludicolo can come in setup a rain dance and sweep with rain boosted life orb hydro pumps. Even if the opponent brings in a grass type to resist it. Ludicolo can ice beam and be faster than almost everything in the tier with rain up.


    THE TEAM
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    Golem (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    -Stealth Rock
    -Earthquake
    -Rock Blast
    -Sucker Punch
    This Golem is my dedicated lead. In Gen 5, dedicated leads haven't been used because of team preview, but Golem can still fit that role tremendously. By using a lead golem, I can guarantee my stealth rocks being setup atleast some point in the match thanks to sturdy, but usually I will not allow Golem to come to such low health due to its tremendous walling ability. If an opposing player has a Golem counter and leads with it then it is usually specially based and can be taken on by Cryogonal or if it is a water type then I get an easy switch into Ludicolo (happens a lot due to shell smash users). Golem will be able to check all bird pokemon and baton pass teams trying to exploit ninjask and illumise. This covers an entire section of the metagame with only one pokemon. A golem is deceivingly powerful and can inflict major damage on all pokemon that don't have defensive investment. There have been several times where pokemon come in to setup on Golem and underestimate the power from the set. An additional check that golem can provide is to facade users. Usually these pokemon are normal type and can inflict severe damage, but by getting extra damage off with sucker punch the rest of my team can clean them up effectively.

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    Ludicolo (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    -Hydro Pump
    -Giga Drain
    -Ice Beam
    -Rain Dance
    The next pokemon is everyone's favorite Mexican Ludicolo! This pokemon was the last addition to my team, but my most reliable sweeper! I would have never thought that Ludicolo could be such a beast. I first came upon ludicolo by getting swept by one. I decided to look into it on Smogon and found that it is a new addition to the NU tier. Ludicolo is one of the best shell smash counters in the tier Huntail, Gorebyss, and Clampearl cannot touch it. I play ludicolo to use its 4x resistance to water. By switching into any pokemon that relies on water type attacks Ludicolo can then safely setup a rain dance. Now as long as the rain is up you have an amazingly fast sweeper with a rain boosted life orb hydro pump. Even dedicated special walls fear this beast. If rain dance can be setup then it will always net a kill. Then when it is over a heavily dented team has to try and take hits from a choice specs magmortar. The combo is very deadly. One of the main problems with Ludicolo is that it doesn't tank powerful attacks well meaning that if you switch in on the wrong move you may lose a powerful pokemon early, but this can be easily prevented through proper planning.

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    Cryogonal @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
    Calm Nature ( +SDef, -Atk)
    -Ice Beam
    -Rapid Spin
    -Recover
    -Toxic
    Cryogonal is the premier rapid spin user and special wall in the NU tier. Hardly anything can break this wall without super effective damage. At first when using Cryogonal I was upset with its typing. Losing 25 percent of your health every time you switch into stealth rocks is a major pain but I learned that by switching cryogonal into special attacks that wont do very much damage Cryogonal can recover and rapid spin clearing the way for the rest of the team. A primary objective of this team is to get rid of the stealth rock user so that Cryogonal and Magmortar can switch in constantly. I have had many battles where the opponent cannot break cryogonal's walling abilities. It provides a major check to any sub seed strategy. Most sub seeders use a specially based grass move like giga drain. Therefore I can bring in Cryogonal and wall their attacks, rapid spin away their seeds, and ice beam away their subs. A perfect counter to these sets. I have come to realize that Cryogonal is an integral wall and spinner for this team and it is key to keep it alive.
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    Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    -Recover
    -Scald
    -Toxic
    -Earthquake
    One of the most Derp pokemon ever created...Quagsire. A pokemon so dopey that he is completely "unaware" of the opponent's setup sweeper. This is Quagsire's main use he walls almost any physical setup sweeper. These are the most threatening pokemon in the metagame in my opinion. With the development of my team I have always found that it was hard to stop a sweeper that got a chance to setup so this unique ability is extremely helpful for my team and playstyle. I find that there isn't a physical wall as effective as Cryogonal is specially so I would rather use a combination of Quagsire and Golem as my phsyical walls. Though they are both weak to grass types they provide too much defensive pressure to give up! Physical grass types may prove to be a problem but they are decimated by Magmortar and easily revenged by Sawk. By pivoting between these walls they both remain at respectable health and allows quagsire more opportunities to use recover. This allows my team to have a constant check to most physical pokemon.

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    Sawk (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    -Close Combat
    -Stone Edge
    -Earthquake
    -Toxic
    This is one of the strongest members of my team. It has always been key to its success. Without the speed and power this pokemon provides I wouldn't have succeeded as much as I have. I believe that it is the best choice scarf user in the tier. The only pokemon it doesn't hit hard are pokemon like musharna and fully defensive pokemon. The main purpose of Sawk is to clean up weakened teams and to revenge kill opposing pokemon. Usually if a pokemon has become out of hand and i can't handle it any longer I will switch in my Golem and tank a hit then sucker punch or death fodder my Golem to get a free switch into Sawk and it can hit it hard with a close combat. If the opponent is still alive then Sawk will tank a hit because of Sturdy. This is for extreme situations and my escape route if I do not play well early thus allowing me to keep a physical wall, Quagsire, and only lose a revenge killer. By having so many uses for a pokemon it becomes perfect choice in accordance with my playstyle.
    [​IMG]
    Magmortar (M) @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Vital Spirit
    EVs: 24 HP / 252 SAtk / 232 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    -Fire Blast
    -Thunderbolt
    -Focus Blast
    Hidden Power(Ice)
    Magmortar is most used in NU for a reason. With the Choice Specs set Magmortar is impossible to wall. This pokemon is the key to the team. If it can be switched into for free then every pokemon will be destroyed. Any wall that can take one hit will be outspeed and most likely be 2hko'd. A team practically has to sack a pokemon just to take it out and i can just switch into one of my walls to deal with the new treat. Magmortar will dent any pokemon and clean up any weakened team. The combination of Ludicolo and Magmortar decimates teams. One of them will weaken a team while the other cleans up. One major problem is stealth rocks which limits the number of times Magmortar can switch in. Therefore for the team to work Cryogonal needs to stay alive and spin them away.

    CONCLUSION
    In Conclusion, I had a ton of fun making this team and would love criticism and advice. Thanks to anyone i battled and to any person that contributes to the team thanks.

    IMPORTABLE
    Show Hide
    Golem (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Blast
    - Sucker Punch
    Ludicolo (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Giga Drain
    - Ice Beam
    - Rain Dance
    Cryogonal @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Ice Beam
    - Rapid Spin
    - Recover
    - Toxic
    Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Recover
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Earthquake
    Sawk (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic
    Magmortar (F) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Vital Spirit
    EVs: 24 HP / 252 SAtk / 232 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Thunderbolt
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    I WILL BE ATTEMPTING TO MAKE A SUCCESSFUL TEAM FOR EVERY TIER SO PLEASE HELP ME
  2. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Messages:
    509
    Hi border Husky and welcome to smogon.

    Your team seems pretty solid since it's made exclusively of top usage pokemon that all fit together very well. I just want to start this off with 3 facts. First off, you forgot your magmortar attacks; second all your sets are very standard therefore your team is very predictable and skilled players might overpredict you pretty easily (I'll assume magmortar is too). Finally, Magmortar, quagsire and cryogonal could all be promoted to RU meaning your team has good chances to not be valid anymore very soon (but that's just info because it still is valid today).

    Ok now for the rate.

    I found very few threats to your team and the ones that I see are extremely uncommon or hard to pull off. For example standard swift swim golduck has the same coverage as ludicolo, outspeeds your whole team with your own rain and can ohko everything in the team but ludicolo if rocks are up to break sturdy and he has psychock for cryogonal (didn't calculate but I'll guess quag and crygo won't survive).

    On a more general approach, good stall teams are rare but will have a lot of fun crippling your team with toxic as nothing is immune or can heal it. Toxic Spikes should also be mentionned since crygo is not always that reliable since he can't come out on anything with even a pathetic little physical attack (watch out for pursuit too). Toxic also often comes with protect that can give free toxic damage, lock your choiced users in predictable moves and waste a rain turn.

    Although I'm more of an original player that believes the best teams must be surprising, I must admit I'm impressed with the synergy of this team. Though it will probably be killed by stall, it's an unpopular style down in NU and not much could be changed without losing traits that make it good against more popular styles.

    Still I think you should calm down on toxic, three times seems too much and slightly useless. I'd like to suggest fling on sawk although many good players have said it was inferior to toxic. Fling is not to add coverage but to liberate you from choice scarf's effect if needed. When I suggested it on the project neverused thread, it was pointed at for not crippling walls that block sawk like tangela, but I think your team can deal well with those walls with strong attacks and 2 other toxic users. Fling on the other hand can help you deal with stall teams using lickilicky, which can stall you for days when using protect and coupled with something to deal with choiced sawk. (You could also change toxic on one of your other 2 users)

    Still, great job on the team building and I wish you good luck on your quest. Oh and it is possible to wall magmortar btw taria and quag can do it deppending on what hp is used and the rare grumpig handles pretty much every set.
  3. Amarillo

    Amarillo
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Messages:
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    A quick rate: your team is really offensive minded so do try an offensive Cryogonal, which probably suits your team's momentum a lot more. It it hits hard, and it provides more offensive pressure. More importantly, your team has trouble against bulky / deceptively fast Grass-types but Ice Beam hitting harder + Cryo being faster can only help. Also offensive Cryo put a teeny bit more pressure on stall because it's harder to keep layers on.

    (also you can keep Toxic on Sawk this way, too. If you need a late-game cleaner that can switch moves, Cryo will readily do that for you instead of Fling Sawk which needs to waste a move. So Toxic away those Tangelas!)

    The set is 252 SpA / 252 Spe with Ice Beam / HP Ground / Recover / Rapid Spin if you are interested.

    Also, your Magmortar's missing its moves ;)

    I'd also think about giving Quagsire a bit of special defense EVs.
  4. BorderHusky

    BorderHusky

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    Messages:
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    I realize the sets aren't very original, but I didn't think I was familiar enough with the metagame to make up my own YET. I never thought of using fling on Sawk though...might give it a try? But that offensive Cryogonal really appeals to me what kind of pokes in the NU metagame does it take on? Finally how many SDef EVs do you think Quagsire needs? and should I take it from HP or Def? EVs are one of my weaknesses as a battler haha
    THANKS EVERYONE :D
    EDIT:
    I realize that there are a few counters to Magmortar, but they are few and the rest of my team deals with them easily. Thanks again:)
    EDIT#2: Sorry for so many edits! but if these pokes do make it to RU what would you recommend as replacements?
  5. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Hmm, nice team BHusky! It is very offesively minded, so I have to agree with Amarillo about offensive Cryogonal. It is especially important to outspeed Sawksbuck, otherwise Sawk is your only check to it. Of course, your team is rather vulnerable to strong Fighting-type attacks, especially from the likes of opposing Scarf (or even Banded) Sawk. Pokemon like Banded Braviary and Emboar are similar to your Specs Magmortar in that they nearly impossible to wall without catering specifically for it. Your team can always revenge kill them, but they will still usually manage to take out at least 1 of your Pokes.

    Stall teams aren't easy for you to deal with either, especially those teams that have Frillish (who actually walls 2/3 of your team). While Grumpig isn't exactly common, even on Stall teams, it is one of the only Specs Magmortar checks that you can't exactly break through with ease. In fact, your team would enjoy a way to handle any of the powerful Psychic-types in the tier since they can 2HKO most of your team with Psyshock (at least the ones that use that over Psychic at least).

    Priority is also very common, something your team does not have and cannot really stop.The likes of Gurdurr, Absol and Samurott will be unpleasant to deal with once Quagsire is gone. The rare Rain and Sun teams will also have a field day with you, since Ludicolo isn't exactly a check to opposing Ludicolo (most Rain teams use it). Plus, with Rocks up Sawksbuck in Sun will still wreck your team. :/

    There isn't much that anyone can do to patch up every weakness their teams have, but I feel that Regirock would be better than Golem for your team. It can tank Superpowers more easily, has Drain Punch for recovery, and lessens your team's vulnerability to powerful Water-types. Sawksbuck shouldn't be able to KO it without a boost either, meaning it can somewhat help with that problem.

    If Magmortar, Cryogonal, and Quagsire all move up to RU, then I would say make a new NU team btw. There aren't really any Pokemon in the tier that can take on their roles well (maybe Charizard I guess). Good luck on your teambuilding for the tiers, and I hope that we all helped make your NU team successful enough for your satisfaction! :)
  6. BorderHusky

    BorderHusky

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    Messages:
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    Alright I will make a new team when the tier shift occurs. Sounds like a plan. Also the only fighting types I have really had a problem with are Gurdurr. If it sets up then that drain punch destroys my team. Any solutions? Also for some reason I haven't had trouble with weather teams. I feel like they are rather easy to deal with and if I have to sack something then magmortar exploits sun and ludicolo abuses rain. Not sure why they haven't given me trouble other than that. But if a team has a bulky psychic type then i feel like that is the biggest threat to my team. Do you think regirock will be able to take on the same offensive role as golem in this team though? thanks for the rate:)
  7. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Well obviously Regirock has 10 less base Atk than Golem, so it is offensively weaker. However, it has far more overall bulk, even with an offensive set. It also has some recovery, and a chance to live special attacks without using Sturdy. Neither Golem nor Regirock is a good counter to bulky Psychic type Pokemon like Musharna, but they both fare better against frailer ones that don't have Focus Blast (i.e.- Gardevoir). I feel that Regirock's bulk and lack of 4X weaknesses (to common moves like bullet seed, which will never OHKO Regirock) makes it a more useful option. You still have Quagsire for all your Ground-type needs, so there really isn't that many reasons why Regirock is inferior to Golem for your team.
  8. BorderHusky

    BorderHusky

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
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    You make a strong point I think I will try it out
    EDIT: After trying out the team I like regirock, but feel that cryogonal is worn down too quickly
  9. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Messages:
    509
    well cryogonal and quag form a defensive core, and putting him offensive breaks it. That's why I didn't suggest it. It leaves you with very few things to block special attacks from fast pokes. Both quag and crygo really depend on toxic to do deal damage which is why I suggested changing sawk. You could also try a curse quagsire since grass pokes trying to break your sweep often mean an easy rain dance, rapid spin or magmortar blast. If you do so, keep the same EVs on quag though so he can still come in on physical attacks.
  10. Vintage Books

    Vintage Books

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2010
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    509
    Quagsire still does a good job taking physical attacks even if you run max HP/max SpDef.

    I would have to agree with Amarillo, Offensive Cryo easily takes special attacks pretty well, and just does a way better job in keeping to momentum. It beats misdreavus which is arguable the hardest ghost type to deal with for spinners.
  11. King of Blades

    King of Blades

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
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    I think that cryogonal could still run his ev spread, but you could put hp ground in place of toxic. That way, he still has decent coverage while he still acts as a special wall. Also, cryogonal doesn't really need much special attack investment to beat most misdreavus. His ice beam will do about 20% to misdreavus, and he takes pittance from shadow ball, (13.1% - 15.7% with your original ev spread) and he also has instant recovery in recover. If it is the calm mind set, swagsire can take him on with unaware and toxic. Plus, sawk and swagsire already have toxic, and if you really need it that much to take down a wall, the wall will most likely stop sawk anyway. Also, nickname your ludicolo M.P.D.
  12. BorderHusky

    BorderHusky

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    So in place of toxic on sawk do you recommend fling?
  13. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Messages:
    509
    It surely isn't the idea of the century but I have used it and it did prove useful occasionaly. Plus you already have toxic twice and your only non choiced physical attacker is golem who tends to die fast (especially with all the counter golem leads that have emmerged).

    Try it out and see if it fits your playstyle. Maybe I'm just the one who got too much bad experiences when using choiced pokes but it's often good not to have to predict the enemy's plays when you reach the game's top speed without a scarf. I think it could help your weakness to stall since they usualy have an answer to toxic anyway. (take a simple possible switch to a posion type do you go for the EQ or the CC ? I'm sure you've already faced such situations). Plus without choice you can make sure the ennemy doesnt get free set up on a resisted attack after the kill.

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