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All Gens The Most Dominant Pokemon in History - #9-10 Position Debate

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    I'm going to go with Snorlax. Here's why: we're looking for the most dominant Pokemon in history, not just the most consistently useful. And while Pokemon in later gens certainly help shape their respective metagames, has any Pokemon ever hit mandatory status for usage? There's two that I can think of: Tyranitar and Snorlax. Tyranitar is arguably mandatory in Gen 3, but there's plenty of options there, I've seen a few non-Ttar teams floating around. Snorlax, on the other hand, depending on who you talk to, is mandatory in up to two generations. Unarguably in GSC, and arguably in RBY. The thing about Snorlax is that it pretty much single-handedly defines offense in both RBY and GSC with its attacking power on the Physical side (letting it bypass the difficulties Special Attackers face), incredible movepool, and of course the lastability that other physically offensive mons lack which occasionally makes them liabilities.

    True, Snorlax peters out in effectiveness starting in later ADV thanks to the near-ubiquity of Sand Stream and Leech Seed (it's no longer mandatory), but in ADV Snorlax is still a big threat that fills a niche nothing else can quite provide (Physically offensive all-purpose Special tank). Curse sets are also scary in the endgame and people must prepare for them. And sure, in DPP Snorlax might as well be a no-show with power being cranked up to the point where even the bulkiest things can't take the hits they once could, but who's keeping an all-time great from his position as such just because he plays a few mediocre seasons in the twilight of his career? (A more apt analogy might be keeping Michael Jordan out of the hall of fame just because he appears to be a mediocre owner, a player in a totally different "game"). That makes no more sense than omitting the youngster from the All-Star game.
  2. Hangover

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    I vote for Tyranitar, this dude is just a mayor threat in every generation he is. If you aren't prepared for him he could easily take at least 2 members of your team.

    In GSC, he was a good Pursuiter but also was a very good curser and a good check for curse Lax without earthquake and also some other versions of him. Which means that he is a very usefull Pokémon in this generation.

    Going into ADV, in this generation he was an excellent CB destroying a lot of things in a team, even the ones that were prepared for him. DD version was also very devastating, he could easily take a hit or two from bulky waters and then start sweeping. The flinch rate from Rock Slide also was very handy for him.

    In DPP, he is very present especially with his Choice Scarf set. A very good Revenge Killer, he could not only trapp Starmie and Rotom-A but also was a very good Check por Sword Dance Lucario without Bullet Punch which is always usefull for a team. He also brought the prevalent Sand Storm, which many Pokémon used this into their advantage.
  3. Danilo

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    I agree with Jorgen. If this debate was about the most dominant Pokemon throughout history than it would be Ttar no doubt. However, in Pokemon history, there hasn't been a Pokemon nearly as dominant as Snorlax in GSC. Ttar is nowhere near an auto-include in ADV and although he's very good in later generations, he's nowhere near as dominant as Snorlax.
  4. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    This is not only gsc, and snorlax is terrible in gen 4. T-tar dominates gens 3 and 4 (its key in most stall teams trapping ghosts and starms), and its a great sweeper too, and its very good in gen 2.

    Zapdos should also be above Snorlax, and maybe Starmie and Gengar
  5. Crystal_

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    As I see this, "history" refers to all gens from 1 to 5 and ttar didn't exist in gen 1. So depending on how you see it, you are not counting ttar's performance in gen 1 and only in 2-5. This is like if I only count Lax's performance in 1-4 gens which is better than its 1-5 performance and at least on par with ttar's in 2-5 gens.

    And then, if I go further, the most dominant pokemon, behind this criteria, is simply the best BW pokemon that appeared in gen 5. Lets say this pokemon is top 5 in BW; a #5 is better than Snorlax's average of #2, #1, #10, #40 and #60 (or whatever it is) in gens 1 to 5 respectively, and probably better than ttar's (gens 2 to 5) average too.

    Honestly, I think the "most dominant pokemon ever" should be picked from the first 151 mons. I'd just add up the expected usage percentage of each pokemon in each gen, and the mon with the highest result gets the title.
    (for snorlax for example 95%+100%+30%+6%+4%=235/500=47%)
  6. Borat

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    I don't think ttar is all that good in gen 2.

    Ttar in gen 2 is probably as good as lax in gen 3, even the whole "tapering off recently" ordeal.

    Lax in gen 3 = ttar in gen 2.
    Lax in gen 1 >= ttar in gen 4.
    Lax in gen 4 > ttar in gen 1.
    Lax in gen 2 > ttar in gen 3.

    Where's the problem here?
  7. shrapn3l

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    i think lax in gen 3 is easily more dominant than ttar in gen 2 tbh (definitely historically, but even now).
    gsc snorlax is the single most dominant pokemon in any metagame. adv tyranitar is not as good as gsc snorlax. adv tyranitar is only slightly more dominant than rby snorlax. dppt tyranitar is not nearly as dominant as snorlax in rby or gsc, and is maybe more dominant than adv snorlax.
    rby snorlax isn't too far behind gsc snorlax as far as dominance.
    it's only anywhere near unimportant in dppt, but it's still ou there...

    so gen 1 ttar doesn't exist
    gen 4 snorlax is ou, so it is naturally considerably more dominant than something that doesn't exist.
    as far as relative dominance, to expand on borat's post (with minor, debatable differences)
    gen 1 snorlax > gen 4 tyranitar
    gen 1 snorlax < or = gen 3 tyranitar (it's probably <, but barely. it's also somewhat skewed i think by the fact that tauros and chansey are so good)
    gen 1 snorlax > gen 2 tyranitar (by a lot)
    gen 2 snorlax > any tyranitar
    gen 3 snorlax > or = gen 2 tyranitar
    gen 3 snorlax < or = gen 4 tyranitar
    a big part of it is that gen 2 snorlax is better than any tyranitar, but gen 3 tyranitar is only better than gen 4 and 3 snorlax, and gen 1 snorlax is debatable. plus tyranitar doesn't exist in gen 1 so it immediately gets less sway.

    zapdos is 2nd best in gsc but it isn't even top 3 in any other metagame, or not even top 5 for that matter... and as for starmie and gengar... how.............
  8. 420

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    I was initially going to say Tyranitar because snorlax was horrible in gen 4 and tyranitar wasn't horrible in gen 1, he just didn't exist. But if we're going to use "didn't exist =/= not dominant" as an argument then we might as well be voting Salamence since it was awesome in gen 3 and broken in gen 4. Then we could move the goalposts even further and say Garchomp since he was OU for a while before becoming uber in gen 4 and simply "didn't exist" before that. So yeah, I think being around longer adds weight to the snorlax argument.
  9. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Point was that T-tar, Zapdos, Gengar and Starm have been top ou in the 4 gens, while DP lax is just bad.
    This is all very subjective though, because while zapdos, gengar and starm have been "good" in all 4 gens, Snorlax has been really good in gens 1, 2 and 3.

    T-Tar, Zapdos, Gengar and Starm have been more consistent, but it's true that nothing has dominated as much as GSC lax, but t-tar has dominated gens 3 and 4, and it's very good in gsc (I agree with Borat adv Lax is probably as good as gsc T-tar), but it didn't exist in RBY.

    So the question basically is, whats more dominant, a pokemon that has been top OU in every gen (except in 1 because it didnt exist), or a pokemon that has been top OU in every gen except in 1, because it wasnt nearly as good.

    T-tar and Lax should be in the top 2 positions, no doubt about that.
    Zapdos is maybe #3
  10. Borat

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    How would you rank RBY lax vs DP ttar?
  11. Crystal_

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    I doubt there is anything more dominant in DP (or in ADV for that matter) than Snorlax in RBY. I know this is due to the difference in number of options available in each gen, but the fact is, nothing in DP is close to RBY Snorlax's presence in at least 9/10 competitive rby teams.
    So if we are measuring dominance, Snorlax should get a higher boost for RBY than Tyranitar or anything else for ADV/DP despite being #2 and #1 in said gens respectively. Snorlax definitely shapes the rby metagame more than ttar shapes dp, while DP, compared to RBY, is shaped and defined by a lot more pokemon (something like 80 vs 20-).

    I know this is biased but that's how I understand dominance.
  12. Borat

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    Pure usage % isn't a fair comparison. You're going to need to look at everything relatively. If say lax is sitting at around 80% for RBY, which would be unheard of in anything past gen 3 (or gen 2 lax for that matter). But when you consider that Tauros sits at 100% and Chansey at 90%, it puts things into perspective.
  13. M Dragon

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    Well, if we compare gen by gen, best case for t-tar is a tie.
    It's close, but it's very subjective
  14. Taylor

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    Snorlax

    Snorlax has been consistantly dominent during three generations worth of competitive battling. I would argue that had it not been for the presense of Tyranitar's sandstorm in ADV, Snorlax's Curse set would've been almost impenetrable bar the odd CBHeracross there force him into submission. It can tank every special attack almost as well as Blissey and at +1, many physically-based suicide attacks fail to OHKO Snorlax as you Rest off the damage. CBMetagross must explode when Snorlax starts Curse up, otherwise prepare to whitness an uncanny comeback before your very eyes.

    So, Snorlax's ability to tank hits as well as dishing them out are apparent, but its versatility to run mixed sets are destructively fierce theselves. STAB Selfdestruct is immensely powerful, and the combination of Fire Blast, Body Slam and Earthquake / Focus Punch aim to offset any defensive core early/mid-game before finishing off with a bang.

    It's difficult to decipher just who deserves the title as undisputedly "dominent". There are always ways to help deal with these overly common threats more easily, but the one Pokemon who I've been unable to handle at any point of the game has to be Snorlax.

    In second place, my beloved favorite, Tyranitar, deserves its merit and potentially is as dominent considering B/W counter-balances the fact Tyranitar was not around for the first generation.
  15. Borat

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    I think the biggest part of where the debate comes from is that we're overlooking just how irrelevant ttar is in gen 2. For someone who's remained in the upper echelons of play, ttar literally hasn't done anything of merit in GSC.

    It use to be used as the part 2 to fb curselax in combination with skarm. But that's a terrible role for it.

    As a mixed sweeper, where it's very average. It doesn't hit as hard as marowak, machamp, or dragonite, and lacks the sleep utility of nidoking/egg.

    As a general phazer, but it's susceptible to toxic, attrack, thunder, earthquake, and the plethora of other things common phazers are at least okay with.

    And as a pursuiter, but ttar doesn't do enough damage to pursuit trade with either gengar or missy if they psong, and needs to gamble vs giga drain eggs, not to mention pursuittars don't do well against statuses in general.

    So basically, ttar is only good if you need a combination of all those things, and in that sense, ttar is very very "average". It fufills multiple roles to make your team whole, but I've found that in the long run, that makes for a shitty team anyway, so it's not really a relavent point of emphasis anyway.

    Moreover, there's also the confusion on whether it's better to be a "crappy" but still OU gen 4 lax, or a non-existing, so therefore not shitty but nor dominant gen 1 ttar. Eh, tough call, but imo its one thing if lax were NU, or even UU, but it's STILL OU in gen 4. That's worth something. Being OU takes something, and it shouldn't be negative points anyway you look at it.



    Having said that:

    Gen 1 lax > gen 1 non-existent ttar
    Gen 1 lax > gen 2 ttar
    Gen 1 lax <=> gen 3 ttar
    Gen 1 lax >= gen 4 ttar

    Gen 2 lax > all ttars

    Gen 3 lax > gen 1 ttar
    Gen 3 lax > gen 2 ttar
    Gen 3 lax < gen 3 ttar
    Gen 3 lax < gen 4 ttar

    Gen 4 lax >= gen 1 ttar
    Gen 4 lax < gen 2 ttar
    Gen 4 lax < gen 3 ttar
    Gen 4 lax < gen 4 ttar

    So we have 8 matchups clearly in favor of snorlax, and 5 matchups in favor of tyranitar.

    Among those, we have 2 matchups leaning towards snorlax's way (one of them is the shit OU vs nothing argument), and one that swings both ways.
  16. Hipmonlee

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    I think gen 4 ttar is better than gen 1 lax. TTar probably is the best pokemon in dp (of those so far not banned). I would definitely say that sandstream makes it the most impactful pokemon in dp, which is one way of interpreting dominance anyway..

    Usage is silly, RBY jynx probably has higher usage than any pokemon in dp..
  17. Earthworm

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    I agree with Borat that Tyranitar tends to play a utility/hole filling role in GSC, and hasn't earned much merit there. It has potential to do damage if you happen to have the right coverage against your opponent's team with a mixed set, but otherwise I have generally found it underwhelming unless I happen to face the Curse+Fire Blast Snorlax, Gengar, or Espeon or whatever other weakness I am using it to patch up. Otherwise, it just tends to get thrown in as a temporary measure against their Snorlax or whatever. This happens even though Suicune, which completely destroys Tyranitar, is less popular now than I infer that it once was.

    I think Snorlax is pretty playable in DPP. It certainly isn't as bad as some people are making out. It has a few niches that can be surprisingly effective. It makes a good exploder + special hit taker, it can (sometimes...) switch into and Pursuit the ubiquitous Starmie, and I have seen Curse sets work occasionally, though nowhere near as often as in previous gens. I've even seen the popular gen 5 set used to some success (Sleep Talk + Whirlwind). Surprisingly the set I have seen the most is CB, which I think sucks, because its attacks are ones you generally don't want to lock into, and SR + sand (and lack of leftovers) + Life Orbed SpAtkers means it often only gets to come in once. My favourite is the Leftovers 4 attacks set with Selfdestruct > Pursuit, but Pursuit can certainly work due to the huge popularity of Starmie and Scarf Rotom-A. Although, the specific situation of switching Snorlax into Life Orb Starmie's Hydro Pump with SR and sand up will probably result in Snorlax losing at least some of the time, even without a CH...



    In Gen 1, Snorlax is probably the Pokemon other than Tauros that I least like facing, and is always one of my top considerations when I am deciding what to put on a team.

    I don't have any (serious) GSC teams without Snorlax. Some of the most successful GSC teams I use have Tyranitar on them to either attempt to get surprise kills or patch up a weakness, but obviously Snorlax is far more dominant here...

    In ADV Tyranitar takes over with Sand Stream and its DD set practically necessitating Ground-types. While nothing really compares to the terror of DDtar, it can play other roles like the "Gengar Slayer" mixed set, bander, and historically other wall breaking sets with Substitute that I don't see much anymore. Sand Stream is also one of the main reasons Snorlax isn't ridiculously powerful (the other being Spikes). Snorlax is certainly up there as one of the best anyway though, having the capability to play many roles well. Offensively there is the mixed boomlax, and curselax plays the role of tanking special moves/dishing out damage and paralysis/beating the offensive CMers while also posing the threat of sweeping by itself. Hybrid Snorlax sets are potentially effective too, especially since it isn't lacking in surprise moves (e.g. Counter, Curse+SelfDestruct, etc).

    I already talked about Snorlax in gen 4. Obviously Tyranitar is far better. It probably isn't as good as Heatran, but I'd say it competes with Rotom-A and maybe a couple of others for second best. I'd say it is usually Scarf to take out Starmie and Gengar and revenge kill set-up Pokemon that don't boost speed, but sets like DD, CB, mix, and even Curse are sometimes seen and can work effectively.

    I don't know if it counts, but in gen 5 OU, Snorlax sucks for real. It's good in UU from what I've seen but that's about as far as it goes. Tyranitar is relegated to a "support" role in OU usually I believe, setting up sand and SR for its team and possibly getting a surprise kill or Pursuit kill on some threat once in a while. That isn't to say it can't do other things effectively; I've seen the gen 4 scarf set around as well as some banders. DDtar has virtually vanished though. Additionally, despite not being an offensive powerhouse like in gen 3, it is still pretty "dominant" in the amount of usage and utility it has. I haven't actually played BW much since the world cup so some of this could be outdated.

    Since the OP leaves out gen 5, I think Snorlax deserves the #1 title, Tyranitar #2. If it does count, I'd probably reverse the order.
  18. Jellicent

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    The two seem to be on a very equal playing field, to be honest. Both have been incredibly solid Pokemon throughout history, and it's a very tough decision. However, given the apparent equality between the two of them, I'm more inclined to side with Snorlax, which has had another generation under its belt.

    My original plan was to decide on the most dominant, followed by rounds for 2-4, 5-7, and 8-10. Given the level of debate, I'm thinking it's best to agree that Snorlax has a solid first and Tyranitar is looking at a close second. If there are any major objections to this, then speak now. Otherwise, in about 24 hours, I'll move this project along to the debate on the 3rd and 4th most dominant~
  19. Borat

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    The thing is, even IF we took out Snorlax's gen 4 AND ttar's non-existent gen 1, (comparing 1-3 lax vs 2-4 ttar) I think Snorlax still takes it.

    Gen 2 lax is still untouchable, gen 1 still as dominant as ever, and gen 3 is at least relavent and competent. Ttar is dominant in 3 and a solid showing for 4, but 2 is all in all pretty underwhelming. Again, gen 2 ttar is the one thing crutching ttar in this showmanship. Ttar technically only has 2 generations of dominance, and one of mediocrity. Snorlax is two generations of dominance (one of which is the likes of which will be never matched), and one of half dominance and half relevance. Ttar in gen 2 is best described as ubiquitously OU but utterly invisible. Gen 2 ttar just doesn't win games.
  20. Carl

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    Was Snorlax relevant in DP? I didn't play that gen much but I can't recall ever seeing Snorlax when I did. Siding with Borat in this head to head... The way I see it, Tyranitar has gens 3 and 4 over Snorlax and Snorlax has gens 1 and 2 over Tyranitar, with GSC literally being Snorlax's metagame... and that being the difference as to why you'd go Lax over Tar... for the sheer dominance Snorlax has in the gen 2 metagame.

    I think Zapdos is being a little underrated here as it's extremely relevant in gens 1-4. It never reaches a level of dominance in any one generation the way Snorlax does in GSC but few pokemon do (and when they do now, they get banned) but something needs to be said for the level of consistency Zapdos has had. Should easily be number 3 on the list.
  21. Jorgen

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    Snorlax 1st, Ttar 2nd sounds pretty good to me. Snorlax's peak is higher, and has consistent dominance through Gens 1-3, though Ttar's peak and consistency come awfully close. I'll agree with Borat that it isn't exactly "dominant" in GSC so much as it is a role player (albeit a versatile one).

    As for #3 I'd have to go with Zapdos. In Gen 1 it honestly wasn't actually OU, though with Rocks gone it was still very effective. As for Gen 2 it is clearly #2 in the game behind Snorlax as a weird hybrid of offense and defense that could stay in against most things, force switches, and even bait and kill Snorlaxes with Thunder. In Gen 3, Zapdos runs into more STAB Ice Beams and Rock Slides and more need for different Hidden Powers, but it's still a great offensive defensive Pokemon that can tank and hurt most things. It also has a niche on BP teams as the 2nd strongest Pokemon (next to Celebi) with BP (plus Electric moves for wrecking Skarms). In Gen 4 it still maintains its presence as an offensive defensive hybrid, being able to force plays with its raw power while staying in against most anything thanks to its typing and solid all-around stats. This consistent presence and high peak in Gen 2 puts it very very close to Ttar, though Ttar peaks even higher and maintains a consistently strong presence otherwise to beat out Zapdos.

    As for #4 I'd go with Gengar. A role-player in Gens 1 and 2, in the former as the fastest Sleeper and viable Exploder and the latter as an assassin that breaks walls with Explosion and surprises. In Gen 3 it started off as the premier wallbreaker with McGar and in modern ADV is the premier SpinBlocker and Special Attacker in the tier. A top 3 Pokemon in ADV for sure. As for DPP it falls off a bit with the ubiquity of Pursuiters (including ScarfTar which outspeeds it), though with Substitute or Protect it can play around them and wreak havoc with its newfound STAB with Focus Blast coverage.

    EDIT: Actually on second thought, Celebi probably deserves the #3 slot. It was ultimately banned from GSC, though it was pretty ubiquitous before its ban. In a Celebi OU Celebi is clearly the #2 mon and Zapdos is nowhere near as good, having to run Thunder Wave + Drill Peck to stand a chance at killing it. In ADV Celebi is also a top 3 mon from what I understand. In DPP it's got a decidedly more mediocre showing though it's still relevant as a defensive Pokemon. Celebi never hits #1 and isn't quite as consistent as Ttar (as evidenced by its poorer DPP showing, which I'd reckon is less than Ttar's GSC showing as a widely-used Pursuiter that can also play other offensive and defensive roles competently, albeit with mediocrity), putting Celebi at #3. Zapdos and Gengar follow for 4th and 5th, respectively.
  22. Earthworm

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    Snorlax was probably about as relevant in DPP as some of the BLs that see occasional use in ADV are. You don't have to consider how to counter it to have a consistent, competent team. I don't think that causes it to fall into the category of "terrible". Although, if directly compared to Tyranitar in DPP, Snorlax would be pretty awful.

    As for #3-5, Zapdos, Gengar, and Starmie come to mind, probably in that order.

    Zapdos was pretty decent in gen 1. Defensively plays against gen 1 Zapdos without Golem or Rhydon are pretty difficult to make since it is capable of hitting nearly everything on standard teams hard. Gen 2 is Zapdos' strongest gen, and it is very dominant there, easily taking #2 to Snorlax. It's stronger in gen 3 than gen 1 IMO, and despite its lack of coverage moves it can still do quite a number of different things for a team, ranging from Modest max SpAtkers to Max SpDef Phazers. Even with Stealth Rock in DPP, thanks to gaining Roost and the viability of anti-SR teams, Zapdos still plays a solid role in DPP. It has gone the way of Snorlax in gen 5, where it is a strong UU contender but pales in comparison to the top OU Pokemon (despite having some viability).

    Gengar has consistently been good in every single gen without fail. Its weakest gen imo is gen 1, though it could arguably be gen 2. It is strongest in gen 3 where its coverage + speed + typing + variety of movesets makes it invaluable to a wide variety of teams. In gen 4 it is one of the hardest SpAtkers to play against and is one of the key reasons that Scarftar is so popular. It also has its uses in gen 5 as an offensive spin blocker. If there is any Pokemon that could give Zapdos a run for its money for #3, it is Gengar.

    Starmie has been consistently OU, but with the exception of gen 4, it is not really dominant in comparison to Zapdos and Gengar. Due to Chansey in gen 1, it tends to be a utility counter kind of Pokemon rather than a sweeper. In gen 2, it is the premier rapid spinner and plays a more defensive role. In gen 3, which might be its weakest gen overall, it can either try a defensive spinner role, or wait until the opponent's special tank is down before taking advantage of its speed and coverage to sweep through Pokemon that take SE damage from its moves. Gen 4 is easily Starmie's best, where it takes advantage of the lack of viable counters in the metagame and the addition of Life Orb to dish out enormous damage with STAB hydro pump/surf. In gen 5 it is sometimes used as an offensive sweeper and sometimes used as an alternative rapid spinner that is not weak to Gliscor's Earthquake.


    edit: Just noticed Jorgen's edit, I didn't even think about Celebi. I don't know how we are going about counting Pokemon when they are classed as Uber. I guess that we can count the period of time when they were OU? Celebi is probably #2 in ADV, was apparently very dominant when it was allowed in GSC, dominant in early DP but then tapered off to become a lot less dominant later with the rise of Heatran / Scizor / Tyranitar / Rotom-A in DPP, and rose once again in BW with the Giga Drain buff and metagame shift from DPP. I can say with certainty that I would place it above Starmie even though gen 5 might not be counted, gen 2 is only partially counted, and gen 1 isn't counted at all.
  23. Umby

    Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    If #1- Snorlax and #2 Tyranitar is the consensus, I'd definitely order the next three:

    3 - Zapdos
    4 - Starmie
    5 - Gengar

    I think we've watered down everything we could say about Zapdos and there seems to be a consensus that it's a solid #3, so I won't say more about that.

    Starmie, all things considered, I think is on an even playing field with Gengar, but I think it gets a slighter edge due to better survivability. Gen 1 saw Starmie as more of a deterrent for certain threats and a good sleep absorber. It has a lot of utility and a consistently more useful typing than Gengar does. One could compare their offensive capabilities, but I think in the likely situations where either would blast someone's face in, they're probably about even there as well. Gengar can Hypnosis/Explode vs Chansey, who would otherwise wall both Pokemon in question, but that evens out when comparing the damage they can potentially do to everything else. That, and I just think people end up overrating Gengar anyway, since the first thought in most people's heads is "FASTEST SLEEPER!" and cause players to neglect thoughts about its other viable roles. I personally give the advantage in this gen to Starmie.

    GSC goes to Gengar, I believe. Once again, Starmie's survivability and utility come into play, but it doesn't influence the game enough to where a player has to account for it to succeed (unless they REALLY want/need those Spikes). Gengar poses much more of a threat all around, even being able to sleep/Dynamicpunch its Pursuit nemeses.

    ADV is Gengar territory. Starmie's offensive threat gets its biggest offensive boost thus far, due to EVs and metagame changes, but it doesn't have the tools to be a standalone offensive threat and while its utility in Rapid Spin outclasses some of the other spinners, the alternative Pokemon offer other utility as well (Forry is a physical wall + Spikes, Claydol can be a deterrent for threats like Tyranitar and Flygon, and Cloyster gets better defense to switch in in certain things, gets Spikes and Explosion). Gengar, on the other hand, has the world available to him-- huge, unpredictable movepool and some cool/relevant resistances and immunities make him a popular and dangerous pick against just about any Pokemon at any given time.

    Though I lack knowledge about 4th gen, it's more than clear that Starmie takes the gold here. On straight up offense, Starmie hits a wider variety if things harder and more consistently (Shadow Ball/Focus Blast has no resistances, but in that sense, offers less in super effective coverage as well), and can still take up a solid role as a Rapid Spinner. Gengar still has a lot of his old tools plus a few more, but they are seemingly overshadowed by its apparent need to be straightforward and standard before it gets Pursuited by Tyranitar or Scizor.

    So, with my rationale, Starmie's generally better ability to stick around longer gives it that veeeery slight edge to take a spot over Gengar, but that's just adherence to my own set of values in Pokemon. For #s 6-10, off the top of my head:

    6 - Skarmory
    7 - Celebi (if we're counting its uber status in GSC)
    8 - Dragonite
    9 - Blissey (/Chansey?)
    10 - Cloyster
  24. Crystal_

    Crystal_
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner

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    Not sure if Celebi should be considered. It is banned in GSC, despite not being a completely necessary ban; but the fact is that it's banned right now either way. Including it would be going another step further again. Moving on to gen 2 pokemon like ttar as we did I think is acceptable, but going for Celebi is essentially like going for a Ru/Sa Pokemon imo (unless we take into account past years when Celebi was unofficially (un)banned (?) in GSC OU). Because honestly, the next logical step is considering Mew/Heatran...

    Something to keep in mind is that being Uber clashes with being dominant, and that's something we see with Celebi. Because, really, the most dominant Pokemon is... Mewtwo, or something. If Snorlax gets to #1 it's because it has Uber-esque dominance in GSC and possibly in RBY as well, (it's alongside Chansey and near Tauros in the border line between Ubers and OUs) but is placed OU in both gens. If Celebi doesn't/shouldn't/mightn't have the chance to play for the #1 it's because it's placed in Ubers in GSC despite not being more dominant than Snorlax and despite being Uber as much as it's OU in terms of dominance. So, to a degree, it's a matter of how tiers have been made and where the OU<->Ubers cut-off has been put.

    Anyway, if we are to consider Gengar/Zap/Starm for 3/4/5:

    RBY
    Starmie
    (gap3)
    Gengar
    Zapdos

    GSC

    Zapdos
    (gap4)
    Gengar
    (gap1)
    Starmie

    ADV
    Gengar
    Zapdos
    (gap2)
    Starmie

    gap4 > gap3 > gap2 > gap1 I'd say.

    And DP I have no clue about it...
  25. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    I think a case needs to be made for Skarmory. It was right near the top in every gen it existed.

    You're nuts..

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