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All Gens The Most Dominant Pokemon in History - #9-10 Position Debate

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Skarm I'd start considering after Celebi/Zapdos/Gengar, tbh. It's always been good, but its super-high usage throughout most of its existence is mostly in reaction to other dominant things (usually Snorlax), so it's hard for me to see it in the top 5. Definitely worth considering for 6-10, though, because of its consistency as a premier defensive Pokemon and the breadth of stuff it defends against in each generation.

    Also, Celebi can be counted for GSC because, for quite a while, it was perfectly legal and was on a lot of dominant teams. Older people might be able to comment better on it.

    And no way Starmie cracks the top 5. It was nominally OU in each gen, but was a far cry from dominant in any metagame except probably for early RBY. The aforementioned C/Z/G trio hits a top 3 spot in at least one metagame, a level of dominance Starmie has never really hit.

    Finally, the Zapdos thing was an exaggeration. It's definitely nominally OU. I was just making the point that it's mediocre compared to other OUs. To use stuff we've discussed before, it's somewhere between GSC Ttar and DPP Snorlax in RBY usefulness. A position that actually kind of detracts from an argument of its dominance, even though it is nominally OU.
  2. 420

    420

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    Zapdos is beastly in gen 1
  3. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Zapdos is #3, no doubt
    Ithink Gengar should be higher than Starmie too. Gengar has always been an unpredictable pokemon and a top threat, in every gen.
    Starmie maybe is #5. Suicune is also a good candidate for #5, a great wall in gsc, a real monster in adv (second best after t-tar), and a great sweeper in DP.
    Celebi, Skarm, Bliss/Chans deserve a mention too as good candidates
  4. Hemp Man

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    I'd say Tyranitar. Great stat layout, amazing movepool, and not to mention Sandstream. Sandstream made him way harder to counter due to cancelling out Leftovers recovery. Then 4th gen had the Special Defense boost, where as 5th gen became a metagame focused on weather more.

    Not to mention Pursuit caused the amount of Psychics to go into decline. Hard to believe Psychic used to be the best type in the game.
  5. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    This is a fun topic.

    Referencing smogon.com/rb or gs/pokemon/ou or bl (insert metagame) and noting which Pokemon are significant in multiple gens (up to gen iv):

    (note I'm ignoring Pokemon introduced in gen 3 or 4, even Jirachi / Metagross / Salamence because I think not being in 2 metas is too much of a handicap).

    1.) For RBY, it is only Chansey, Gengar, Snorlax, Starmie, Zapdos. A case could be made for Jolteon, Gyarados, Aerodactyl, Dragonite and Slowbro, but I don't think they have enough presence in multiple other generations (too bad for Dragonite we're not including gen 5), or in Aerodactyl / Gyarados cases, sucked too much in gen 1 / 2 to trump their utility in gen 3 / 4.

    2.) For GSC, it is Blissey, Forretress, Gengar, Heracross, Machamp, Skarmory, Snorlax, Starmie, Suicune, Tyranitar, Vaporeon. Jolteon (again) / Raikou get honorable mentions but I don't think they really were huge in a metagame determining sense. Sure, joltwak was fearsome, but Jolteon is not huge in adv and gyarajolt is more of a joke than anything serious...Raikou is big in gen 2 and 3 but it was uu for a while in gen 4...hard to justify it. Celebi is a tough one, as it is certainly top tier in ou in 3 / 4, but it wasn't ou in gen 2, so it's basically like Jirachi or Salamence.

    Combining the lists, a top 12 is pretty easy to round out...Blissey (chansey) / Snorlax / Gengar / Starmie / Zapdos all from gen 1, as all were ou in gens 1 - 4. Definitely Suicune, Skarmory and Tyranitar from gen 2, as they all had metagame defining presences in multiple metas. Then any 2 of Forretress, Heracross, Machamp or Vaporeon to finish a top 10. I'm not sure where my vote goes here...probably feedback for the last two slots.

    Top 8 is easy though; definitely Blissey (chansey) / Snorlax / Starmie / Gengar / Zapdos / Suicune / Tyranitar / Skarmory.

    My personal top 3 in terms of "average gravity per generation is probably:

    1.) Blissey (Chansey) - present in all 4 gens, literally forcing players to take her presence into account as she could single handedly shutdown special offense
    2.) Tyranitar - not present in all 3, but a metagame defining presence rivaling (probably trumping) Blissey's. #2 cause not in every gen...but it's tar lol.
    3.) Skarmory - Really same justification as tar, not as good at shutting down physical offense as Blissey was special offense, but close, and the hazards also literally defined metagames.

    4 - 8 are tossups and I can see justification for anything, but I honestly believe these 3 had the most metagame defining presence of any pokemon in gens 1 - 4.
  6. Borat

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    Not to be an ass, but psychic was never the best type in the game.
  7. Hemp Man

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    Eh, well one of the best in RBY then.

    But you can at least agree that the type has gone into decline over the generations shifted?
  8. M Dragon

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    Tyranitar is already #2.
    We are discussing #3, #4 and #5
  9. Borat

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    I think a big part of it is whether blissey and Chansey can be considered one poke.
  10. M Dragon

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    Thats a good question Jellicent should clarify.
    If they count as the same poke, it's top 3 at least


    Also, what do you think about Suicune vs Starmie for #5?
  11. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    I'm standing by Celebi for Top 5. Peaks top 3 in two gens, even though its legal tenure in one of those gens (GSC) was cut short. It was also pretty good at least early in DPP's history and is still usable now. After Gengar and Zapdos, nobody else really achieves that level of usage or dominance over any single metagame (let alone two), although there probably are more consistent Pokemon like Starmie, Skarmory, and Suicune. I guess this ends up being a question of peaks versus stability, but in my eyes a high peak constitutes actual dominance over a metagame, whereas consistency merely implies a constant presence, and hence should be weighted less in a discussion of "dominance".

    I guess if Chansey/Blissey can count as one Pokemon, they probably deserve top 5, tbh. Without Chansey's RBY presence, though, the ever-present Blissey just doesn't dominate any one metagame enough to deserve a top 5 spot and should be lumped in with the discussion of the positions Starmie/Skarm/Cune will be competing for.
  12. Borat

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    IF celebi were to be considered OU in gsc (which I don't think it's really fair to), it's probably #3 imo. Celebi is easily #2 in GSC, and pretty damn close to #1. I'm actually a little surprised it wasn't abused to any real extent. Celebi literally stops EVERYTHING in GSC. Unless you're critting it, or gets parahaxed, it tends not to die.

    But without GSC, Celebi isn't a viable contestant just because it'd be absent in two gens, which imo is far too many.

    Chansey/Blissey combined would compete with zapdos and GSC-included celebi.
  13. Hemp Man

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    Oh my bad.

    About your Suicune vs Starmie question, I'd say Starmie. It has RBY Generation, which Suicune wasn't in. Its also more versatile with an awesome movepool. Suicune is great, but after a while, started to get predictable and its movepool is not as great.
  14. M Dragon

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    Celebi vs Suicune is a close one too. In ADV and DP Suicune was better though.

    I think Zapdos and Gengar are clearly #3 and #4 if we consider Bliss and Chans as different mons.
  15. Jorgen

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    I think you might be in the minority on the Suicune>Celebi argument in ADV, M Dragon. What I've seen from other RSE players about the modern metagame is that Ttar is #1, then Celebi and Gengar come in some order at #2 and #3, and then the rest of the OUs come in after all those. But then again, I've only seen a subset of ADV opinions (recent, but good RSE players, mostly), so I dunno if Suicune has more historic dominance over ADV or if other RSE players who don't post much anymore would agree with you on this.
  16. undisputed

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    Starmie was, in my opinion, the defining 4th gen Pokemon (like tauros in rby, snorlax in gsc or swampert/ttar in adv). Other gens it wasn't that great though, so I it should probably fall a few slots.

    As for 3, 4, 5 vote, my votes would go for Blissey/Chansey, Gengar, and Celebi in that order.

    Blissey/Chansey is pretty self explanatory. It's just one pokemon you can't ignore when making a team. Every team I've ever made, even from when I was just beginning, I've made sure it wasn't completely walled by Blissey. It's a staple on stall teams and can force half the metagame of forever out because it's so difficult to KO with special moves.

    Gengar might be a little more controversial, I guess. Consistently OU through all 4 gens. I can't speak to RBY and GSC as much as ADV and DPP, but in the latter two, Gengar was easily a top 5 mon in both. ADV Gengar was the premier spin blocker. I can't actually picture myself building a spikes team with a spin blocker other than Gengar. It's just that good. DPP you got a similar case. On an offensive team, Gengar was an excellent choice and probably superior to Rotom-formes. In fact, almost every good DPP team I've ever made has Gengar on it. It's set(s) were to some degree predictable, but then Gengar still gets the job done anyway. Excellent mon.

    Celebi gets my 5th place vote because it's just so incredibly versatile. Great defensive grass type, solid offensive capabilities. I don't know if there's a better Pokemon to fill a niche role in a team. Celebi works well both Physically and Specially Defensive, it can lay Stealth Rock, it beats pretty much every bulky water, it sub-seeds, it sweeps with CM, it does pretty much everything. Another really great mon. Maybe not a "dominant force" in the way you think of Snorlax in GSC, but it can have great value for all types of teams in every gen.
  17. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    I'm inclined to say don't toss Blissey and Chansey together. Even though they fill identical roles, and one is an evolution of the other, they're still different Pokemon. Otherwise, we'd have to look at stuff like Magneton/Magnezone as one Pokemon, too >.>
  18. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    I did a tally of sorts for the votes, and came up with this:

    #3: Zapdos - No surprise there
    #4: Gengar - Makes sense as well
    #5: Blissey - Okay, this one was actually Blissey/Chansey mashup votes, so I weighed Blissey more heavily (as it's more dominant in the 3 gens it existed).

    If Blissey and Chansey not being counted as one Pokemon changes things, Celebi was next highest in the tally. Starmie got a couple nods, and Suicune and Skarmory were brought up as well. So, I guess the current question is: Is Blissey or Celebi (or Starmie) more deserving of #5?
  19. Borat

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    If blissey and chansey weren't one poke, I dont think either of them make it to top 5. Just my opinion. Chansey was irrelevant in 2-3. Blissey was irrelevant in 1, blows in 2, good in 3, and idk 4. This isn't the makings of a top 5.
  20. Hipmonlee

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    Skarmory is way better than blissey in every gen. I dont really think Chansey's rby awesomeness can make up for that..
  21. gene

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    blissey is straight up garbage in gsc. even if you count chansey together with blissey, they don't deserve a mention.
  22. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Okay, Blissey is definitely not #5 if you can't lump Chansey in. It's pretty bad in GSC, so despite its relatively strong showings as the premier special wall in ADV and DPP, they're not strong enough showings (although influential, they seem shy of "greatness") to make up for that poor GSC showing. I'd say it still deserves to be somewhere on the list, though, because its existence does so much to shape offense in each generation it exists (including GSC).

    Celebi is #5 for sure if we count GSC. However, since it was banned pretty early, it might not be fair to count it in GSC, in which case it probably doesn't even deserve to be on this list since it really only has prime-time presence in ADV and is merely okay in DPP.

    So if we take those two out, that leaves Starmie, Suicune, and Skarmory. I don't think Suicune is quite top 5 material. It's super-passive in GSC, and it's better on paper than in practice in ADV, which is also the case in DPP.

    That leaves Starmie and Skarmory. This one I'm torn on. Skarmory has been the premier physical wall in every generation it's existed. In ADV it's pretty much been the premier Spiker, too, though Forry has probably ousted it in "today's" ADV. On the other hand Starmie has been consistently OU since RBY and has always been pretty much the top spinner in OU. In GSC it's indubitably so, in ADV and DPP it's the one spinner that can actually kill shit, and in RBY where there are neither Spikes nor Spin it is perhaps the most versatile defensive/support Pokemon in the game (though it can never do everything it wants due to 4 moveslot syndrome). Both Skarm and Starmie both have great peaks, too, I mean in GSC Skarm is probably the #4 or #5 Pokemon because Snorlax, whereas (I could be wrong with the following statement since it's based solely on PO usage stats) Starmie is probably a top 5 mon in modern DPP (and if that's wrong, it's still a top 7 RBY mon, well within the OU subtier directly underneath the "mandatory" foursome of Tauros/Chansey/Snorlax/Egg).

    If I had to compare the two, here's where their respective placements in each gen are:

    RBY Starmie wins by default (it's at least a top 7 mon here)
    GSC Skarm > GSC Starmie (top 5 versus top 15)
    RSE Skarm > RSE Starmie (don't know the ranks, but the gap closes)
    DPP Skarm < DPP Starmie (don't know the ranks, but Starmie is clearly better)

    Ultimately, though I think Skarmory is cooler, I gotta go with Starmie here. In GSC and ADV it occupies a unique, metagame-shaping niche as a Recovering Spinner, whereas it's clearly an elite among the OUs in both RBY and DPP. Meanwhile, Skarm has an impressive debut in GSC, but this is ultimately more in reaction to Snorlax's dominance than its own greatness, and then it drops off in utility in ADV due to Rock being the best Physical STAB, and even moreso in DPP where Spikes are no longer even the best hazard, it gains Physical weaknesses, and Fighting moves are more abundant.

    (and yes I know I might have said Starmie is nowhere near top 5 earlier in this thread, I guess I lied).
  23. Borat

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    I'd argue Celebi is #2 if we count GSC, but I don't know enough gen 4 to make that claim. Gen 2 would be celebi's strongest gen.
  24. M Dragon

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    Zapdos and Gengar are definitely more dominant than Celebi.
    #5 should be Suicune/Celebi. Celebi seems more popular, so Celebi might be #5 there.

    For #6-#8 I would say Suicune, Starmie and Skarmory (maybe Skarm > Starm, but if we decided Lax > T-tar, then I would say Starm > Skarm).
  25. Taylor

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    The issues I have with Gengar being in the top 5 (let alone top 3) is that it took until DP for Shadow Ball to work alongside its SAtk stat. It was the STAB move and Focus Blast which helped Gengar in 4th Gen to excel, but was never going to really take full advantage of its new found power because Choice Scarf, Azelfs and the like were on the rise; not to mention Scizor's Bullet Punch boost thanks to Technician during the Platinum era did not do it any favors.

    In RBY it was outclassed by Psychic-types and weak to common moves such as Earthquake (the only favorable Normal-type immunity was always accounted for, as there was no such thing as Choice locking yourself to the point where you can take a turn to get a foothold in the match).

    GSC might've been where Gengar was considered one of the most useful Pokemon as there were still a shortage of Ghost-types and it was the only meaningful one of which could block entry hazards and maintain an offensive presense with gimmicky Perish Trap sets.

    In ADV, Gengar was all the while very versatile when it came to inflicting status and abusing BoltBeam-like coverage, yet was not most reliable spin blocker thanks to Dusclops' bulk proving to be more useful in stall, and the likes of Starmie could outspeed Gengar and still Rapid Spin hazards successfully; this was also a common scenario during the DPP era.

    I'd give Suicune and Starmie the nod over Gengar, with whom and Zapdos fighting for 5th place.

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