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The Most Dominant Pokemon in RU

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by DittoCrow, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    This thread is used to discuss the best or "broken" Pokemon in RU, not underrated sets. The point is to find really good Pokemon to build teams around as well as name the counters to these Pokemon. Since the usage stats aren't really showing what the best Pokemon are (why is Sandslash #3 and Hitmonchan #7 >.<) maybe this thread will! You can either post a Pokemon set of your own (include why it's good at what it does) or discuss counters to the Pokemon already posted. I'll start:

    Cofagrigus
    [​IMG]

    Cofagrigus (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Mummy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Trick Room
    - Nasty Plot
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]

    Cofagrigus is the threat that everyone prepares for. Only a couple of Pokemon counter Cofagrigus (Mandibuzz, Spiritomb, and Drapion just to name a few), but almost every team has one of these! Cofagrigus excels in RU due to the fact that it is immune to the plethora of Fighting-type attacks in the tier, and has the ability to change the momentum of the match with a single move: Trick Room. Due the the fast-paced offensive nature of the RU tier, Trick Room screws over many of these teams and a slow, hard hitter such as Cofagrigus is able to outspeed and 2HKO most of the tier, especially after a Nasty Plot. So, how do you guys deal with Cofagrigus? What are your ways of dealing with it if you don't have a solid counter? This brings me to another dominant Pokemon in RU:

    Spiritomb
    [​IMG]

    Spiritomb (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Sucker Punch
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Pursuit
    - Trick / Will-O-Wisp

    As one of the only Pokemon that checks Cofagrigus, Spiritomb serves an extremely important role in RU. As much as I dislike Spiritomb's lack of recovery, I can't deny how many times this guy has beaten a key member of my team. Pursuit annihilates weak defensive Pokemon such as Cryogonal and Roselia, leading to a free KO if you predict correctly. Shadow Sneak, despite having only 40 Base Power, hits surprisingly hard and hurts Pokemon such as Gallade. If you don't feel like predicting, Trick will get rid of your Choice Band so you can switch moves freely. On top of that, Spiritomb is really hard to deal with because nothing hits it super effectively, so you're forced to gradually wear it down. During the time you're trying to counter Spiritomb, it's usually going to get a KO or cripple your switch-in.

    Gallade
    [​IMG]

    Gallade (M) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Night Slash
    - Shadow Sneak

    I've been seeing this A LOT on the ladder, and it's really powerful. After a Swords Dance, Gallade can 2HKO almost the entire tier. Close Combat and Night Slash have pretty good coverage, and Shadow Sneak is good for picking off weaker or faster foes such as Rotom. With a Lum Berry, Gallade can't be worn down or crippled by stats, netting it an easy KO on Pokemon such as Slowking. Gallade is also really hard to counter. I can only think of Spiritomb as being reliable. Qwilfish, Moltres, and Scyther are ok checks, but they aren't really good Pokemon by themselves, and two of them will already be at 50% health upon switching in if Stealth Rock is on the field. So, what's the best way to deal with this threat?
  2. Double01

    Double01 Hate it or love it the under dog's on top

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    Lilligant (F) @ Lum Berry/Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 4 Hp / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Giga Drain
    - Quiver Dance
    - Hidden Power [Rock]

    Lilligant has to be one of the best and most dominating pokes in RU. Even it's best counters (roselia, spdef Drapion, bouffallant) will fall to Lilligant after some hazard support. Speaking of hazards, I believe lilligant truely thrives when placed on a spike stacking team because it's counters don't really have a reliable recovery. So if you can lure those counters multiple times then lilligant can easily set up and sweep. If you run lum berry then you can get a free qdance against a slowking or tangrowth as they try to t-wave or sleep powder you. Or you can go the offensive route with life orb which allows u to power through it's checks and counters. Overall, lilligant is a top notch threat that requires 1-2 checks/counter just to try to stop it from setting up.
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    I also believe that Gallade is one of the best pokes in the tier atm, but not the set in the OP. This is the real deal:

    Gallade @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
    Trait: Steadfast
    EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
    Adamant nature
    - SD
    - Drain Punch
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Stone Edge / Leaf Blade / Shadow Sneak

    Able to set-up on half the tier, able to survive most onslaughts from scarfers and heal back the damage with Drain Punch, and able to deal huge pain at +2, while also packing priority. I mean what's not to love?

    Another top tier poke, and possibly one of the best pokes in the tier right now is SD Drapion.

    Drapion @ Leftovers
    Trait: Battle Armor
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly nature
    - SD
    - Taunt
    - Crunch
    - EQ

    Taunt is awesome in this meta, and shuts down many pokes such as Lilligant, Tangrowth, Smeargle, Cofagrigus, Roselia and more. Crunch and EQ offer surprisingly good coverage in RU, and after a few SDs, Drapion's power is excellent. His good bulk and Lefties allow him to take most physical and even some special hits relatively well, and procceed to set-up. Being one of the best NP Cofagrigus doesn't hurt either!

    These 2 pokes also work very good together, forming a double SD core, as each of them is capable of setting up on the others checks/counters!
  4. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    Yea I agree with you. Lilligant is an insanely good mon due to Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance. I usually have to run two Pokemon to beat it on defensive teams (Mandibuzz, Cryogonal, or Roselia) or Bouffalant or something on offensive teams. Then again, with Spikes + Stealth Rock, these counters can be played around, ending up in a late-game Lilligant sweep :<. Another way of dealing with it is with Trick, but that's a last resort. Amazing Pokemon, and good post! :p

    Pretty similar to the set in the OP, but Ghost-types have an easier time with this one. It still has its merits. So, what do you guys use to beat this set and the one in the OP?

    Another great set and great mon. It's still easily walled by Steelix, Poliwrath, and Sandslash though. Instead, I prefer to use this set:

    Drapion (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Battle Armor
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Aqua Tail
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
    - Earthquake

    Switch this in on a Slowking, Cryogonal, or Roselia and you'll get an instant KO. I really like Pokemon that the opponent is helpless against, and this is one of them. Pursuit trapping is becoming really good lately. Both of these Drapion sets are BEAST :)
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Not really. Any Cofagrigus is 2hkoed after SR at +2, and with Lum Berry you don't fear WoW. This Gallade also does better against CBTomb, as it can ohko at +2 with SE after SR + Spikes while living a SS, while offensive Gallade is ohkoed from SS, after SR iirc. And it gets way more set-up oportunities than the offensive one, and is way less afraid of revenge killers.

    The best way to take down the offensive SD Gallade is to revenge kill it, which is easy to do with LO and CC limiting his surviavability, and his average speed. The best way to take down the bulky SD Gallade is with the few revenge killers that can ohko him (Specs Moltres, Entei and Acrobatics Sceptile), and the walls that wall him depending on the coverage move he uses. If you don't use Leaf Blade, Quagsire and Slowking are counters, if you don't run Stone Edge Moltres, Sigilyph and Spiritomb become problematic, and without Shadow Sneak Scarf Rotom and Medicham can either ohko you or lock you into 1 move.


    This is why this duo is so effective. Steelix and Poliwrath are both set-up fodder for Gallade, while even Sandslash can be set-up on if he isn't at full health (set up SD while tanking an EQ, which does ~50%, and then 2hko with DP, while avoiding the 2hko from EQ due to the recovery from DP).
  6. TheMexican

    TheMexican

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    I've been using SD gallade for a while, I'm currently at 1304 points being in 4th place, and its pretty awesome, it has enough speed to outrun half of the metagame, and fater a single boost it hits everything like a truck. If to that you add some hazards for yourself you can sweep lategame pretty well. The only problems it usually has are stuff like Banded Shadow Sneak Spiritomb for obvious reasons, and some flying pokes, moltres, scyther, archeops are the ones flying on my head at the moment. However these are all weak to rocks so that's why Its best to use this monster lategame.
    Also I like how the bulky gallade looks, however, not using close combat misses some important KOs.
    One example is against Tangrowth.
    252 +2 Atk Gallade (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Tangrowth (+Def) : 63.86% - 75.25%
    252 +2 Atk Gallade (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Tangrowth (+Def) : 40.1% - 47.52%
    Drain Punch fails to 2hko while tangrwoth could, sure it cant to much back, but Its kinda important to notice about that.
    Another example should be against Mandibuzz
    Detailed Result:
    252 +2 Atk Gallade (+Atk) Close Combat vs 248 HP/8 Def Mandibuzz: 94.33% - 110.87%
    Detailed Result:
    252 +2 Atk Gallade (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 248 HP/8 Def Mandibuzz: 58.87% - 69.5%.
    Drain Punch fails to OHKO even after rocks, while this bird can brave bird in return. These are just some examples tho. I gotta say I really love gallade and how much of a beast it is.
  7. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
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    I'm surprised that no one has said this before, but at least to me, Tangrowth is by far the most dominating Pokemon in the metagame. It has absolutely no safe switch-ins. To me this thread isn't about "the best Pokemon in RU," (which from previous posts is what I think they interpreted it as) but about what Pokemon completely dominates the metagame around it. To me, that Pokemon is Tangrowth. Tangrowth can run both offensive and defensive sets very well, and its offensive set in particular has ridiculously few safe switch-ins. Leaf Storm, Focus Blast, and Hidden Power Rock gets amazing coverage on the tier, but Tangrowth's real secret weapon is Sleep Powder, which puts things like Cryogonal and other Tangrowth in their place. Quite frankly, I'm terrified whenever I see one in team preview. Normally, this would be the case of a Pokemon having its checks and counters, but not every other Pokemon has access to a partner like Slowking, which cover each other's weaknesses near perfectly (although sharing a Bug weakness kinda sucks).

    I remember in one of the np threads (either this one or last one) where someone suggested banning both Slowking and Tangrowth. While that is extremely drastic, I think we need to take a closer look at what the problem really is. While the TanKing combination never seems to die, this depends on Tangrowth more than Slowking really. Tangrowth on its own is ridiculously hard to deal with, but with Slowking thrown into the mix we really need help. The defensive set is amazing as well, and can effectively run a grand total of about eight or ten moves viably, including Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Leech Seed, Substitute, Giga Drain, Power Whip, Earthquake, HP Fire, or HP Rock. Therefore, you have no idea exactly which moves Tangrowth will be running. It's a shame that BW2 is coming out so soon, but I think we really should've taken a look at Tangrowth and how it fared in the metagame, but I don't think there's time for that now.

    Let's take a look at all of the Pokemon that Tangrowth can check/counter.

    -Absol
    -Aerodactyl
    -Aggron
    -Crawdaunt
    -Drapion
    -Druddigon
    -Dusknoir
    -Electivire
    -Feraligatr
    -Ferroseed
    -Gallade
    -Golurk
    -Hariyama
    -Hitmonchan
    -Hitmonlee
    -Kabutops
    -Klinklang
    -Lanturn
    -Medicham
    -Poliwrath
    -Primeape
    -Quagsire
    -Qwilfish
    -Rhydon
    -Rotom-C
    -Sandslash
    -Slowking
    -Spiritomb
    -Steelix
    -Whimsicott

    As you can see, over half of the metagame is checked by Tangrowth. Of course, it's a great Pokemon, and nobody can really doubt that. However, now I'd like to bring up a list of Pokemon that can beat Tangrowth.

    -Accelgor
    -Archeops
    -Bouffalant
    -Clefable
    -Cofagrigus
    -Crustle
    -Cryogonal
    -Electivire
    -Entei
    -Galvantula
    -Jynx
    -Lilligant
    -Magmortar
    -Mandibuzz
    -Mesprit
    -Moltres
    -Roselia
    -Scolipede
    -Scyther
    -Sigilyph
    -Typhlosion

    The point of this is to show just how much bigger the number of Pokemon that Tangrowth beats is to the number of Pokemon that beat Tangrowth. Next I'd like to see how many of the list above are checked by Slowking. Taking those out of the list, you are left with this list.

    -Accelgor
    -Bouffalant
    -Clefable
    -Cofagrigus
    -Crustle
    -Electivire
    -Galvantula
    -Lilligant
    -Mandibuzz
    -Mesprit
    -Scolipede
    -Scyther

    These are the Pokemon that, if coming face to face with Tangrowth by either a lead matchup or a double switch, will be able to beat both Tangrowth and Slowking. Keep in mind that this does not mean directly switch into it by the way. That will be adressed in the next list. However, the list is already becoming extremely small. Now then, these Pokemon from the above list can safely switch into any of Tangrowth's moves barring Sleep Powder.

    -Bouffalant
    -Clefable
    -Mandibuzz

    This Pokemon on this list are the only three Pokemon in the metagame that can safely switch into Tangrowth (although the latter two are fucked by Sleep Powder) while also being able to beat its partner in crime Slowking. Even more than the previous list, this is ridiculous. Both Magmortar and Roselia get special mentions since they can both beat Slowking with only a little residual damage, with the former being immune to sleep moves entirely and having enough bulk to shrug off a Specs HP Rock or Earthquake from the defensive set, and the latter having Natural Cure and not being hit hard at all by any of Tangrowth's attacking moves.

    Quite frankly, if that's not metagame domination, I don't know what is. Of course, what I interpreted from the title of this thread is that what literally dominates the metagame. In other words, is there anything we need to watch out for in the current metagame that could potentially be broken? I think Tangrowth is that something to watch for. I'm not saying ban it; I'm not even saying it deserved to be a suspect. I'm just saying we should really keep an eye on this thing and watch for any future developments. Notice that Tangrowth is a pretty good check to itself, and that is never a good thing when something could potentially be breaking the metagame.
  8. Omicron

    Omicron
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    Err... Bouffalant and Clefable get manhandled by Focus Blast :<
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Don't do calcs with Drain Punch vs Tangrowth, use Zen Headbutt. Here are some calcs:

    +2 Zen Headbutt vs Defensive Tangrowth: 42.57 - 50.49%, possible 2hko after SR, sure 2hko after SR + Spikes, not to mention that Gallade has ~39% chance to avoid the Sleep Powder each time because of Sleep Powder's accuracy and Zen Headbutt's flinch effect. Now if you are using Lum Berry, Tangrowth should put you to sleep twice, which happens 61%*61%=37%, not a pretty number huh? And all these assuming that Tangrowth avoids the 2hko.

    Let's look at another calc...

    Mandbibuzz's Brave Bird vs 200 HP Gallade: 78.89 - 93.57%, which is not an ohko even after SR. Meanwhile you can get a second boost as Mandibuzz tries to kill you, and then do 88.88 - 104.96% back with +4 DP, which is an ohko after SR and 2 rounds of lefties, while you go back to green health. Or you can just use Stone Edge, which ohkoes at +2.

    @complete legitimacy

    Your list of pokes that can beat the TanKing combo is missing quite a few pokes. Here are some more:

    - Acrobatics Archeops (ohkoes both pokes after SR with Flying Gem boosted Acrobatics, or ohkoes Tangrowth after SR, and 2hkoes Slowking without SR)
    - LO/EB Manectric
    - Offensive Lanturn with EB or LO (ohkoes Tangrowth with Ice Beam, and 2hkoes Slowking with Tbolt)
    - Roselia (can 2hko/ohko both pokes with SR + Spikes up or can simply set-up 1 T-Spikes layer to help beat the core)
    - Specially Defensive Drapion (Beats Tangrowth one on one, since it can Taunt to prevent Sleep Powder, and then procceeds to set-up T-Spikes to make the core more manageable. It also 2hkoes Slowking. It will need help to beat the core though as he can't do it alone without reliable recovery)
    - LO/EB Rotom-C with HP Fire/Ice
    - SubSplit Rotom
    - CP Sigilyph and CM Sigilyph
    - CB Entei (2hkoes Specs Slowking after SR 100% of the time with Flare Blitz)
    - CB Aggron (ohkoes Slowking and ohkoes Tangrowth after SR and 1 LO round)

    I know that some of them cannot really beat the core by themselves but they help a lot. I am just putting them there for discussion anyway...

    So we have at least 20-22 pokes that beat this combo in the tier. Not such a small number i would say for such an amazing combo. Another thing to note is that there are pokes for any type of team. Offensive, balanced and stall teams, all have their choices if they want to beat this combo.

    Also you are overlooking the fact that these 2 pokes are slow as fuck, and can't outspeed a single poke in offensive teams. Couple this with the fact that the combo is afraid of the best momentum gainers for offensive teams such as Manectric, Galvantula, Rotom-C, and Rotom, and you realize that it is pretty hard to get a favourable match-up against such teams. Even if you manage to bring Tangrowth against a physical attacker, he will most likely be at +2, at which point he can beat the core by itself. Some examples of physical attackers that can do this are: SD Gallade, offensive SD Drapion with Poison Jab, SD Sceptile, SD LO Kabutops and SD Scolipede.

    All in all the TanKing combo is a very good one, and this is why it is popular, while being an easy all around strategy (pretty much like Volt-turn is in OU), but the low speed of the pokes in it, and the fact that many special attackers can break this combo, means that it is perfectly beatable without restricting your teambuilding options a lot, or causing any big centralization in the tier.
  10. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    I'll agree with that Gallade is very good atm in RU.

    I can't agree with OTR cofagrigus being great in this metagame. It's really easy to deal with and it is a terrible team-player, unlike support cofagrigus who should be seeing some more usage IMO. There's just so much it can't OHKO, even with its two turns of set-up.

    There are better set up sweepers out there in my view than cofagrigus. Look at SD LO kabutops, that thing is beastly. And don't forget the likes of Jynx and klinklang. Both are really dangerous in RU atm.

    Specially defensive slowking is really good, especially if it decides to spam status. Very little likes the combination of t-wave and toxic, especially seeing as it can switch in on nearly every special attacker in the tier. The only thing I can think of as a proper counter now is manetric, and not even he likes switching in on a scald or psyshock.
  11. TheMexican

    TheMexican

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    Oh, its just that I dont use either Zen Headbut nor Stone Edge, because imo, Night Slash and Shadow Sneak get better coverage. Also, by the time gallade comes in there is usually some layers of spikes and rocks. So Mandibuzz reaches the KO range. Again, I think Close Combat is just very useful and powerfull. But I get your point.
  12. DittoCrow

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    OTR Cofagrigus "isn't great" because it's such a huge threat that everyone prepares for. That makes it a centralizing threat in RU. You could compare it to Excadrill in OU, where if you build a team without a check to it, you would pretty much lose; and there are as few checks/counters to Cofagrigus like there were few checks/counters to Excadrill. Also, Cofagrigus not being a great team player???? Ghost typing is one of the best in RU because of the plethora of strong Fighting-types include Gallade, Medicham, Hariyama, and Primeape. Being able to resist all of these powerful attacks, in addition to having great Defense even when uninvested allows Cofagrigus to both take a ton of hits and sweep. It's also great on offensive spikes stacking teams because it can beat most spinners besides Cryogonal and offensive SD Kabutops.

    While I agree that Jynx is really good atm, where are you getting Klinklang from? It gets completely walled by two of the most used Pokemon: Sandslash and Steelix. Focus Blast Tangrowth also fares really well against it, as does Poliwrath. I don't really see Klinklang doing much, sadly, because it has so many popular counters :(.

    YES! Like seriously, how are you dealing with Moltres and Typhlosion if you don't have Slowking, lol. It has a lot of weaknesses, especially to the common Drapion and Spiritomb, but it's still a really important Pokemon in RU.
  13. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    Yeah, ok, you're right about klingklang, I just wanted to encourage some more usage, lol.

    OTR cofagrigus isn't a good team player because all it does is sweep or be pitifully weak without boosts. Basically, it won't be doing anything unless it's setting up and because it is easy to check, you have to keep it as healthy as possible until its checks are gone. That's why it's not a good team player in my view. And also, the only fighting types it stops are primeape and hariyama, the former which is u-turning most of the time and the latter is phazing frequently (even though that's a pretty poor set).

    As for checks, I didn't play tonnes of OU when excadrill was around, but to my knowledge, it's only real counter was gliscor. Skarmory walled but couldn't really do anything back. Conkeldurr and scarftoed and scarftales (which is a terrible set which no-one used) were checks, and that's pretty much it as I can remember. Correct me if I'm wrong, but excadrill swept teams even if you were prepared for it.

    Cofagrigus' has a ton of checks. With TR or a NP up, spiritomb, drapion, mandibuzz, anything with a sleep move (hell, even jynx survives a +0 shadow ball most of the time with SR off), anything with haze/power swap and usable bulk, murkrow and cryogonal jump to mind, whimisicott (thanks to encore). It can be even as simple as toxicing it and making some clever switches.

    Don't get me wrong, OTR cofagrigus can be dangerous, I just think there is just better stuff out there when you see how team-reliant and easy to counter it is tbh.

    As for moltres and typhlosion, I've been using bulky specially offensive altaria and it is AWESOME. But generally, every team should have a solid fire resist, just like in every tier (except maybe LC). Both of them are fairly prediction/support-reliant if you're running choice due to their SR weakness. With great power comes great (well, quite a lot of) responsiblity as we all know.
  14. D4RR3N

    D4RR3N

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    Exca had a ton of checks back in OU, but it's still banned.
  15. Double01

    Double01 Hate it or love it the under dog's on top

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    @spuds4ever You really aren't giving cofagrigus the credit it deserves. You say cofagrigus is pitiful weak at +0 and yet it is the strongest special attacking ghost in the tier. (bar modest rotom) Cofagrigus also works quite well in a dual ghost spike stacking team. I paired it with a scarf rotom which helps deal with all of it's checks by either tricking it's counter or killing it. You could also pair cofagrigus with band spiritomb to take care of it's counters.
    Also your some of the counters you list are just silly (ie. Murkrow). Also spiritomb takes like 75% with a +2 shadow ball. So if cofagrigus is placed on a spike stacking team ( as it should be) then it's checks will fall to this powerhouse. So if you find cofagrigus "underwhelming" then that is mainly due to you not using it right or everyone is preparing for it that it has no time to shine. Really, what succesful team doesn't have at least 2 soft checks to cofagrigus.
  16. lars

    lars

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    I think what Spuds is saying is that Cofagrigus needs two turns of set up to sweep, and if it ends up dying before TR is up, its own team is often at a disadvantage trying to stall out the last turn or two of TR. However, by definition most late-game sweepers (and I could argue even a few mid-game wall breakers) aren't very good team players. A closer relies on its team to weaken the opposition (and often sacrifice members in the process) to be able to successfully pull off the win. Cofagrigus is an excellent example of this simply because it asks for more support than it usually gives.

    For the reasons above I can somewhat agree that OTR Cofagrigus is a poor team player

    However, I cannot agree that OTR Cofagrigus is pitifully weak without boosts or that it is particularly easy to check/counter. Ditto and Double have already explained these points.

    Personally (quite possibly due to the rise of OTR Cofagrigus) I think Drapion (bulky and offensive SD) is better in this meta. Purely because it checks the other dominating force in the tier and provides a respectable amount of team support because it usually only needs one turn to set up and in its ability to absorb t.spikes and using taunt to break stall.

    Cofagrigus is a top tier threat and is not even particularly over-hyped, but there are a decent amount of Pokemon in RU that are equally potent threats.

    As for my own "best Pokemon in RU"

    Bouffalant (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sap Sipper
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Frustration
    - Earthquake
    - Megahorn
    - Swords Dance

    oh man, this thing can switch in on Lilligant/many other grasses that spam Giga Drain, Leech Seed, and Sleep Powder and get to +3 easy, then something is going down. Its speed is easy counterbalanced by its bulk, and as its probably biggest advantage, most teams don't specifically prepare for it (a mistake). Oh, and it dismantles TangKing (practically a must if you want to be taken seriously as a sweeper in today's RU) and can reliably switch into the most common sets of one of them.
  17. Buckles

    Buckles

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    [​IMG]



    Sceptile @ Flying Gem
    Trait: Unburden
    EVs: 4 HP/ 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    -Swords Dance
    -Leaf Blade
    -Earthquake
    -Acrobatics

    Best late game cleaner I've ever used. All you need to do is setup a Dance and save your Acro-Nuke for the bulkiest poke the opponent has left. Doesn't give a damn about most defensive cores in RU either.

    Then on the special side, Specs Sceptile can blow holes in teams with Leaf Storm/Focus Blast much like Tangrowth, only way faster. Quite possibly the best, and definitely the most versatile, sweeper in the tier.
  18. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    Yeah Bouffalant's ability is really good. Also, after a Swords Dance, Bouffalant can 2HKO almost everything. I love how Steelix can't come in twice because it takes over 50% from a +2 Earthquake! Same with Poliwrath. Not really sure why you're using Frustration instead of Head Charge, though, the recoil isn't that bad. +2 Head Charge will OHKO stuff like Mandibuzz, Aerodactyl, and RestTalk Hariyama whereas Frustration will not. Not really a big difference, but the extra power is nice!

    As for counters to Bouffalant, Cofagrigus, Misdreavus, and Rotom are big ones. Pokemon with Will-O-Wisp also hurt this set, so that's why I run Substitute instead of Megahorn and Head Charge to do more damage to walls such as Tangrowth. Rhydon fares pretty well against Bouffalant as well. Overall, SD Bouffalant is a great Pokemon in general and should be used more.

    Also guys, remember to post counters to the sets above since that will help with teambuilding!
  19. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    Ok, maybe pitifully weak was an exhageration. Tbh, almost every offensive pokemon works substantially better on a spike stacking team. Cofagrigus is a legitimate threat, but it is over-rated IMO. My list didn't even cover everything, but in your example of spiritomb taking 75% (which you can easily avoid by shifting some EVs over to sp. def), spiritomb will still have taken a good chunk out of cofagrigus' health and lowered it into KO range of nearly everything. So Cofagrigus, who you can't switch in until late game really if you want to sweep, will get you 1 kill, maaaybe 2 if your opponent is really not prepared for it, most of the time.

    If you look at another cleaner who only needs one turn to set up, say for example SD LO kabutops, it's extremely difficult to stop late-game. It's only real counters are poliwrath and a very healthy 252/252 tangrowth, the former who is rare, and tangrowth isn't really that hard to wear down, especially seeing as it will more often than not be your opponents only answer to hard physical attackers (or you can just give kabu spikes support). Kabutops also doubles up as a decent revenge-killer and a fire attack absorber too. Kabutops isn't the only one either, things like sceptile (hint, buckles), choice scarf medicham and so on.

    In my view, when you look back at RU, there are much better cleaners than cofagrigus when you take a look at what actually counter them.

    That's not really what I meant, but I appreciate the attempt at saving my pride :P.

    I'm really not sure about my own "most dangerous RU pokemon" because I think it is a very nicely balanced tier atm.

    Maybe Aggron, as gligar is gone and nothing in the tier counters both CB and magnet rise sets (except possibly curse steelix) though I've been very impressed with CB drapion recently.
  20. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Poliwrath and Balloon Magneton are also hard counters.
  21. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    Cofagrigus is a KEY player on a Spikes-stacking team. It is hands down the best offensive Ghost-type in RU. A Spikes-stacking team doesn't work if you don't have anything to block Rapid Spin, a move found on nearly every team. Cofagrigus is perhaps the most important teammate on these kinds of teams, and the fact that it can be a sweeper adds to its value. Cofagrigus has insane bulk, and therefore it can take many hits for you early-game, from stuff like Primeape and Sandslash, and still retaliate late-game. Again, because of its bulk, it will usually have the time to set up both Nasty Plot and Trick Room. Even before that, a base 95 Special Attack is nothing to laugh at. If you don't have a designated counter, losing one or more Pokemon to it is not easily shrugged off. Cofagrigus plays the most important role on Spikes-stacking teams: spinblocking. You can't compare other late-game sweepers to it because they don't provide the most important role to the team.

    Also, Kabutops isn't hard to stop because Grass-types are everywhere in RU. They're either bulky, like Tangrowth and Ferroseed, or fast, like Sceptile and Lilligant. Kabutops gets manhandled by the former two because Tangrowth will always have high HP due to Regenerator, and the latter two will take nothing from Aqua Jet and OHKO with a STAB move.

    Now, here's another Pokemon that I would consider a "dominant Pokemon."

    [​IMG]

    Moltres @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Roost
    - Fire Blast
    - Air Slash
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    This thing is such a huge threat, but it just has a big weakness. Think about it; when you see this thing in the team preview, the first thing that comes to mind is Stealth Rock. That's probably because you only have an unreliable check, not a designated counter. Only Slowking, Lanturn, Munchlax, and a couple of NU Pokemon such as Grumpig and Regirock can take on this beast. Otherwise, you're going to have to use checks such as Feraligatr and Kabutops who risk taking a big chunk of damage from Air Slash and Hidden Power Grass. Basically, the way most people deal with Moltres if they don't have the aforementioned Pokemon is to revenge kill it. It's not hard to beat Moltres because of Stealth Rock, but if that's somehow removed, then Moltres can switch out freely. One of the reasons why I have Slowking on most of my teams is because of Moltres, so that's why I consider it a dominating force. It will usually get a KO or severely damage your check. Thoughts? How do you handle Moltres and what are some other checks and counters?
  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    @DittoCrow

    You forgot to mention Aerodactyl, which is one of the big reasons that Moltres has lost it's shine. Aero is pretty common on offensive teams, and is a perfect check to Moltres as it can come in on anything and lay SR as Moltres switches out. If it uses Roost, then it is the perfect counter, as it can do it multiple times. Then you will have to Rapid Spin, which is not easy to do against offensive teams, so Moltres will be really hard pressed to do anything as after SR and a LO round he will be at 40% life, at which point he will die to almost anything found on an offensive team, meaning it cannot come in, and will only be able to come in once after something dies.

    Also the fact that Aerodactyl shits all over Natu doesn't help either. Damn it, this damn fossil really made Moltres's life more difficult...
  23. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    Ah yes, poliwrath is a counter, magneton is not, though, as it gets smashed by a focus punch.

    @Ditto, So cofagrigus spin-blocks and kinda sweeps. It does one thing for the team other than attempt to sweep. It doesn't even spin-block very well tbh.

    Kabutops +2 Stone Edge vs. 252/0 Cofagrigus 311-367 (97.18 - 114.68%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    SandSlash +2 Earthquake: 218-257 (68.12 - 80.31%) vs. 252/0 Cofagrigus guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Offensive Cryogonal Ice Beam vs. 252/0 Cofagrigus : 156-186 (48.75 - 58.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Or just toxic it.

    While I'm not going to deny cofagrigus is the best spin-blocker in the tier (even if it doesn't do a great job of it), it doesn't really make sense to use OTR to spin-block seeing as there is no way that cofagrigus is sweeping on lowish health.

    As I said, it's bulky enough to set up NP and TR (though that's not going to happen if you are using it to spin-block), but again, you will still have to take a hard hit either way and there is a lot in the tier that can take a +2 shadow ball and there are some things that have nothing to fear from switching in if they know your set unlike in your example of kabutops where neither lilligant or sceptile can switch in safely.

    Again, OTR cofagrigus is a legit threat, but it's very limited to what it can do for your team and I still think it's over-rated.
    On the topic of moltres, it's very good, I'll give you that, but slowking, the insurmountable object, is just too high and SR is just so easy to set up in RU, especially aerodactyl as Alexwolf said (I've never actually thought of aero as a moltres counter, interesting theory there AW) which makes it difficult to pull off a sweep with it.
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Yeah you are right, forgot about Focus Punch...
  25. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    Well, since more people started running Specs Slowking, Moltres can handle it more easily.

    Hidden Power Grass vs. 212/0 Slowking : 46.61 - 55.46% -- 71.09% chance to 2HKO

    Also Aerodactyl has a hard time in places other than the lead slot, but I think that a Hone Claws set or something could be really good once Steelix and Rhydon are eliminated. Sounds cool, I'll have to try it out!

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