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The Move: Super Fang

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by 1059860, Sep 12, 2009.

  1. 1059860

    1059860

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    Note: I do realize that there's an official discussion thread about HG/SS Competitive Battles, but I believe that this topic deserves its own thread for the importance and uniqueness of this move.

    ___________________________________________

    With the release of Heart Gold and Soul Silver on Sept. 12, there's no doubt that one of the moves that has been eternally submerged in shadows now has a chance to rise to power. Previous to the releases of these two games, the move Super Fang was only available to these three Pokemon (with the exception of Smeargle, who can run much better sets):
    • Raticate
    • Pachirisu
    • Bibarel
    And all three of them are in the NU tier. All of these three Pokemon have very mediocre-to-abysmal stats, especially defensively, and cannot take many hits before they will faint. Also, with the exception of Raticate's Crunch, neither of the other two Pokemon has a particular good way of hitting Ghost types. None of these three Pokemon have a base speed of 100 or over, and none can hit very hard otherwise, unless previously boosted.

    Now, on September 12, these all changed, since the HG/SS, there is a tutor that can teach certain Pokemon the move Super Fang, and here is a list of Pokemon who can learn it (thanks to RB Golbat for the list):

    Listing Fully-Evolved Pokemon Only (Pokemon with Base Speed 100 or higher have a * next to their names):
    • Raticate
    • Sandslash
    • Nidoqueen
    • Nidoking
    • Mew*
    • Furret
    • Crobat*
    • Granbull
    • Houndoom
    • Mightyena
    • Linoone*
    • Mawile
    • Sharpedo
    • Glalie
    • Walrein
    • Huntail
    • Bibarel
    • Pachirisu
    • Purugly*
    • Toxicroak
    It is quite obvious that Super Fang has the potential to bring a very solid Pokemon into KO-zone easily, and bring weaker Pokemon into KO-zone by priority moves. Furthermore, many of these Pokemon that can learn Super Fang also have access to at least 1 priority move:
    • Nidoqueen - Sucker Punch
    • Nidoking - Sucker Punch
    • Mew - Sucker Punch, Vacuum Wave
    • Furret - Quick Attack (STAB), Sucker Punch
    • Houndoom - Sucker Punch (STAB)
    • Mightyena - Sucker Punch (STAB)
    • Linoone - ExtremeSpeed (STAB)
    • Mawile - Sucker Punch
    • Sharpedo - Aqua Jet (STAB)
    • Glalie - Ice Shard (STAB)
    • Bibarel - Quick Attack (STAB)
    • Pachirisu - Quick Attack
    • Purugly - Fake Out (STAB), Quick Attack (STAB), Sucker Punch
    • Toxicroak - Sucker Punch, Vacuum Wave (STAB)
    Then, there are 2 Pokemon that can induce Sleep, which can be very useful with Sleep + Super Fang combo to take a nice chunk of HP off any Pokemon or any switches (non-Ghost):
    • Crobat - Hypnosis
    • Purugly - Hypnosis
    Neither of these two Pokemon have a really accurate sleep-inducing move but they nonetheless remain an option to pair up with their amazing speed.

    Lastly, Super Fang + U-Turn can also be a considerable option.

    Note that I did not include Smeargle in this thread since everybody know that Smeargle can learn all moves besides Chatter.

    Sharpedo, Houndoom, and Mightyena worth a special mention as they have STAB moves that can hit Super Effective on Ghosts, a type of Pokemon which Super Fang does not affect. All three of those Pokemon have a decent Attack or Special Attack, useful Speed and at least 1 Priority move. And Crobat...

    Combo with Brine: With many Water types having Swift Swim, and Brine widely available as a TM, Super Fang can be easily used to cut off the HP first, then a fast swimmer in rain can quickly come and Brine away. Even if it's not in rain, any Briners can take this advantage since the opponent's HP has been cut by Super Fang. Sharpedo has both Super Fang, priority, STAB Brine and a move to hurt Ghost types while Toxicroak can benefit from rain with Dry Skin ability.

    Huntail (with Swift Swim) in rain can throw out a STAB Rain-Boosted, fast Brine after a Super Fang with 94 base SpA, which is wonderful. Stealth Rocks are needed to ensure 130 Base Power Brine or Leftovers can easily screw over the idea.
    _______________________________________________

    Walrein: Not only it has Super Fang now but also Aqua Ring... I don't think you can kill that thing without toxic-poisoning it somehow...

    The main purpose of this thread is to discuss all the different possibilities and uses with this move, since people aren't used to create movesets and EV's for certain Pokemon dedicated for a special move such as this. This may also be a good place to find other moves that can combo easily with Super Fang to make the move or the Pokemon's moveset much more effective in today's metagame.

    P.S. Heatran learns Bug Bite now... WTF?
  2. graves

    graves

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    It could be pretty useful on a offensive Mew set, or on a crobat.
    Plus, Houndoom, with sucker punch could do very well.
    (maybe even broken for UU)
  3. KurashiDragon

    KurashiDragon

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    Just another reason for mew to be in the Uber Tier lol. We'll likely see an increase in mew with this.
  4. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider
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    Crobat and Walrein seem to be the best recipients of the move. Crobat has a whole host of moves that it can use to great effect alongside Super Fang - Taunt, Roost, Whirlwind, U-turn - and I think it will be a massive threat to defensively inclined teams when paired with a Pursuit user (Weavile with his new Low Kick toy?) to remove Rotom. Crobat's decent defenses, great Speed, Roost, and Taunt in particular mean it can beat the vast majority of defensive Pokemon one on one with Super Fang + an attacking move.

    Walrein is annoying enough as it is, but now it can do more than just stall for 32 turns. With the additional damage from the Hail and probably Toxic Spikes, Walrein will probably be able to easily destroy unprepared teams by itself. Remember that it has 110/90/90 defenses (much better than Swampert's) and recovers 12.5% a turn in the Hail. With Super Fang, it has very little need for offensive investment of any sort, and can focus its EVs on its excellent defensive stats to make it even harder to take down.

    Nidoqueen is very interesting since it does a great job as it is of countering Lucario, can set up and absorb Toxic Spikes, set up Stealth Rock, and phaze with Roar. Super Fang might give it a considerable boost in usage. It also has access to Shadow Ball and Crunch to deal with Ghost-types that try to take its Super Fang.

    This is all theorymon at the moment, but one thing I'm certain of is that Super Fang will have a profound effect on the way several Pokemon are played in OU.
  5. mattj

    mattj blatant Nintendo fanboy

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    Crobat

    A 200 spd (L50) fairly weak poke that can pick an opponent's lead and automatically take it down to 1/2 HP to be followed up by any other of your speedy lead pokes. That is broken. O.O

    [edit]
    I was talking doubles by the way.
  6. 1059860

    1059860

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    Yeah. I just realized how great of a combo is with Roar/Whirlwind, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Super Fang. Super Fang alone can wear off half of the HP, and with the other hazards, a game with indirect-damage may be more lively than ever.

    I'm going to suspect that Spiritomb will go up in usage due to the fact that it has very nice Defense, Pain Split and neutrality to Pursuit while being immune to this annoying new toy. Will-O-Wisp can also burn quite a few of the Super Fang users, but Houndoom can take advantage of that with Flash Fire.
  7. umbarsc

    umbarsc

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    If anyone wanted Crobat retested in UU (I did), they won't now. Now even the likes of Regirock or Steelix get stripped of halk their health on switch-ins, and due to Crobat's staying power and the lack of recovery on most of its counters, its BL status is solidified (unless it's moved to OU of course).

    Looking through the list, it doesn't seem likely that these Pokemon will be anything close to gamebreaking. Besides Crobat and Walrein, most of these Pokemon are either terrible with or without this (Mawile, Furret), can cause more damage some other way (Houndoom, Sharpedo), or is too frail to take advantage of it (Houndoom, Sharpedo).

    I guess a Taunt + Super Fang Nidoqueen could be interesting. Like Bibarel or Crobat, but it also can set up entry hazards and has more bulk than both.
  8. Yanma024

    Yanma024

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    Smeargle can also use Super Fang.
    NidoKing/Queen have Sucker Punch for priority.
  9. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider
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    Another possibly effective strategy that just caught my eye as I was glancing down the list is Super Fang + Brine. Brine doubles in power to be a 120 bp 100% accurate move when hitting an opponent at half health or below, and Super Fang will bring any non-Ghost opponent into that range in a single hit. In particular I think Sharpedo might be able to use this combination in the lower tiers to good effect, since it has great mixed attacking stats and a decent Speed stat to use them off (95 is really quite good in UU). It also has a STAB Crunch or Dark Pulse for dealing with Ghost-types that might try to block Super Fang, and has Aqua Jet for finishing off faster foes. Huntail also has strong attacking stats and access to Crunch, but it is much slower than Sharpedo. In particular I think Super Fang will help these two deal with the ubiquitous Milotic in UU, and may let them be a real threat now. I don't know, but I think this might be an interesting combination to try out once the new moves get implemented into shoddy.
  10. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    Apart from Crobat, which I already made a big post about in the other thread, and Walrein which seems to be one of the most popular choices (and with good cause), there are 3 that are a little overlooked: Glalie, Toxicroak, and Houndoom (though he has been discussed in the UU thread).

    Since a lot of people never use Glalie, they don't realize that he actually has the same ability as Walrein, and can therefore recover 12.5% in Hail as well with Ice Body. While he has 30 lower HP, and 10 lower Defense/Special Defense, a defensive set can still work very well. He has the advantage of much higher Speed and Taunt. (and Explosion, though it doesn't seem worth it on a defensive set)

    Walrein can deal with the hard-hitters a little better on a Hail team with his Super Fang. However, on a Hail team, Glalie would specialize in taking down the walls. He has both Super Fang and Taunt, along with Crunch to take down Ghosts, and Block if he wants to guarantee victory against a non-Fire attacking wall. Having both Walrein and Glalie on the same Hail team would be quite deadly, since their Super Fanging abilities handle different kinds of threats. Though, one would obviously have to make sure to cover the overlapping weaknesses with something else (especially the massive Rock/Fighting weakness).

    I'm giving Toxicroak and Houndoom a mention because they now have a way to take on Blissey if they run their Special boosting sets without having to go mixed. They even have the Taunt + Super Fang combo if they choose not to boost (it would restrict their moveset too much if they had the boosting move there too). I suppose this is another thing that Crobat can boast now as well, since Blissey walled his special boosting set hopelessly before.

    EDIT: In your Brine + Super Fang combo, which actually seems rather cool, I'd say that Huntail is probably best for the job. Out of all the users, he's the only one that actually benefits from the Rain with Swift Swim, while also having a nice 94 base Special Attack. Note that Stealth Rock is a necessity here, because if the opponent is carrying Leftovers, they will have >50% after the Super Fang, which means Brine won't get the power boost. Stealth Rock damage will guarantee that they'll have at 50% or under after the Super Fang though (unless their name is Steelix, though Brine would still probably kill him).
  11. -Terywj-

    -Terywj-

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    On the other hand, Stallrein sets running Substitute / Protect / Super Fang / Blizzard now can stall for MORE than 32 turns, shooting Stallrein to the Uber Tier or Hail Stall Play.

    -Terywj
  12. 1059860

    1059860

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    I said I am aware the fact that I neglected Smeargle.
    Nidoqueen does NOT learn Sucker Punch.
  13. franky

    franky
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    Super Fang teams would be annoying. Spam Superfang and proceed to pick it off with CB priorities. This is pure theorymon though.
  14. keelhauled

    keelhauled

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    Super Fang paired with strong priority, like CBzor, and CBazu would be pretty horrible to counter.
  15. SMZ

    SMZ

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    Crobat lead with the set LR mentioned would be interesting. I'm curious how much Super Fang will effect its usage/tier.
  16. ThePatriot

    ThePatriot

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    I wonder what stall teams will be like when hg/ss comes out. I also predict alot crobat flying around in the ou tier stall teams.
  17. KurashiDragon

    KurashiDragon

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    By the looks of things defensively oriented teams will soon be obsolite and hail teams will rule the day. Even hazard teams will increase. (Forcing switches with super Fang FTW!!!!!) All because of one little move. This is a very interesting game.
  18. Stagnant

    Stagnant

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    Crobat@ Wide Lens

    ~Hypnosis
    ~Super Fang
    ~Roost
    ~Taunt/ U-Turn/ Brave Bird

    Sounds like a winner to me.
  19. Lemmiwinks MkII

    Lemmiwinks MkII

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    As Bologo and others have alluded to, Hail teams will benefit enormously, with no fewer than three viable users getting the move. Walrein and Glalie provide the double Ice Body threat; Walrein having the bulk and typing + > 101 HP Subs, and Glalie having the option of Taunt + entry hazards to take advantage of walls. Their biggest problem will be the 4-moveslot syndrome. Finally, Nidoqueen will become even more of a staple on Hail teams, with its Stealth Rock and / or Toxic Spikes and invaluable Rock / Fighting resistances. Also gets Crunch for Ghosts just like Glalie, as well as Blizzard if you need it.

    So yeah, Hail seems like the most interesting threat to watch out for with this move. Though I must admit that all this Brine talk sounds fantastic to me; a move that nobody would've even considered as a viable option before.
  20. blasphemy1

    blasphemy1

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    I am most excited to use this with Nidoking, Nidoqueen, and Crobat. Stallrein is cool too as well, this is just another reason for me to get around to making a hail team I guess. Nidoking is one of the best wallbreakers, and now he can lower stuff like Hippowdon, Celebi, Cresselia, Blissey, etc. into KO range. Nidoqueen is just an overall fantastic support pokemon, and once she is done setting up entry hazards, she can do some wallbreaking much like Bibarel utilizing the Super Fang + Taunt combo. Then there is Crobat, who is the fastest of the users, has access to U-Turn, Hypnosis, Roost, and Taunt. Crobat in OU can actually function as a stallbreaker, destroying Blissey, Skarmory, Hippowdon, Celebi, etc, etc.

    @ Lemmiwinks MkII: Glalie isn't ghost type, perhaps you mean Froslass(although I thought she was banned).
  21. Yehom

    Yehom

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    It does in HeartGold and SoulSilver;)

    Both Nidoran Male as Female will learn Sucker Punch
  22. Lemmiwinks MkII

    Lemmiwinks MkII

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    I meant that both Glalie and Nidoqueen get Crunch to hit the Ghosts that block Super Fang for SE damage. Sorry if I worded it badly.

    Also, it confuses me when people say that Super Fang helps bring walls into KO range. Surely if you can KO something at half health, then you can also 2HKO them at full health. I guess it eases prediction if you can 2HKO everything with your three regular attacks, but otherwise I don't get it tbh.
  23. Steinhauser

    Steinhauser

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    I think one of the most interesting uses will be the trapper Crobat: the Taunt/Mean Look/Super Fang/Roost Crobat set that someone came up with in the other thread. (Was it LR?) Basically it eliminates any offensively weak, non-Ghost Pokémon flawlessly (well, barring things like parahax) and can pick apart a stall team member by member. Remember that when Crobat Roosts it only has two weaknesses, one of which is risky due to being immune while not Roosting. Anything on a stall team that gets Taunted will be very, very hard pressed to take it down. Of course a U-turn > Mean Look variant manhandles offensive teams.
  24. Qzahk

    Qzahk

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    Looks like a few more pokemon will be graduating up a tier.
  25. Lord Jesseus

    Lord Jesseus

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    I'd go U-Turn over Hypnosis.

    Yeah, I don't either.

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