The Next Best Thing

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by DTC, Jan 21, 2013.

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  1. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    The Next Best Thing...
    credit to fatty for most of the op and the idea
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    What is this?:

    I for one, along with many others I'm sure, feel as though there is some untapped power within the NU environment. There is substantial evidence for this idea in the form of one commonality for most tiers, NU included: there always seems to be one or more new-fangled, hyped up sets that weren't originally main-stay or seen as "viable" by the community, but somehow has taken the metagame by storm. This can be seen in DPP OU (with Special Lucario transitioning to SD Lucario, Heatran eventually running items other than Choice Scarf, and the influx of ChestoRest Kingdra) in ADV (with the vaunted TyraniBoah now becoming almost an urban myth in comparison to Special and DD Tyranitar, and the increasing popularity of SupeRachi) and in BW OU (with the advent of SubSalac Terrakion, SubDisable Gengar, and ChestoRest Volcarona). Yes, some of these sets may have been found early on with respect to the creation of the tier or fairly recently, the point is, though, that there seems to be an endless supply of effective and potent sets out there yet to be discovered, especially factoring in metagame swings and the possible tier shifts. The purpose of this project will be to systematically subject each and every NU Pokemon to a collective body of research in an attempt to uncover these "hidden gems", so to speak, and hopefully spark some creativity throughout the NU community.

    The Process:

    Each week, I will choose a different NU Pokemon, sometimes chosen by random, sometimes chosen by curiousity, of which participants will try to personally create a new set for that is not already on-site or in the process of being put on-site. Participants will be given 3 days to create their set, with discussion about the particular sets being promoted throughout, and on the 4th and 5th day, a vote will be held to choose which user's set represented the most creative and simultaneously competitively viable set to utilize in the current NU metagame. Once the votes are tallied and a winner is crowned, the set will be archived in the OP and the process will start all over again for the next Pokemon specimen.

    What are we looking for?:

    Specifically, I want to stress the importance of the balance between creativity and viability when picking a set to post for the Pokemon in question. There's a very fine line between a "creative" set and a "gimmick", and this project is not meant to produce gimmicks, rather emphasize the ability to think outside the box when using a specific Pokemon in order to maximize it's potential. Having said that, I would also like to deviate from simple one move / item changes. For example, using Ground Gem over Leftovers on Golem does nothing to show any untapped potential Golem has because we already have a basic understanding of what Golem does. The same goes for using Thunder Wave over Signal Beam on CM Musharna, it doesn't yield productive discussion or results for the project. I am looking for sets that test what we think we know about checks or counters, so-called standards, and what it means to be viable. Maybe a particular option for a Pokemon looks inferior at first glance for that particular Pokemon, but dig deeper and try and find what it might mean in the big picture, for the entire team.


    The next test subject is...

    [​IMG]
    Ludicolo!

    Some things to consider:

    • What is thought to "counter" this pokemon?
    • Is there anyway to bypass this pokemon's so-called "counters?
    • What moves are seldom used on this pokemon, but have the most upside?
    • What niches can this pokemon potentially fill in the current metagame?
    • What opposing pokemon does this pokemon do well against?
    • How can this pokemon benefit it's teammates?
  2. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Archived Sets

    (set name - creator)

    Double Dance Torterra - Annoyer

    [​IMG]
    Show Hide


    SubDrink Miltank - BROStime

    [​IMG]
    Show Hide

  3. FLCL

    FLCL
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    Some things to consider:


    • What is thought to "counter" this pokemon?

    Most Grass and Flying types do very well against Torterra, especially the support sets which do not carry Stone Edge. Defensive Tangela, Exeggutor, and Serperior can give Torterra massive headaches and wear it down with Giga Drain, Psychic, or Hidden Power [Ice].

    Flying-types—especially ones with enough bulk to take Wood Hammer—can take on Torterra extremely well. Examples include Braviary, Articuno, Rotom-S, and Charizard, which can switch into Torterra's STAB moves easily and demolish it with their own attacks. However, they have to watch out for Stone Edge, which is on every offensive set and can threaten to OHKO the aforementioned Pokemon. ​

    • Is there anyway to bypass this pokemon's so-called "counters?

    As previously mentioned, Stone Edge is a great way to get rid of Flying-types, although they have to be hit on the switch. Rock Polish accomplishes the same thing, allowing Torterra to fire off a Stone Edge before the Flying-types can retaliate and start its own sweep.

    Grass-types are a bit harder to deal with since Torterra has no conventional way of breaking through them. However, two options that can be utilized to lessen the threats of these walls are Toxic and Swords Dance. The former allows Torterra to gradually wear down the Grass-types, making them unable to take Torterra's attacks anymore. Swords Dance takes a much more offensive approach by attempting to set up to +6 and then dishing out extremely powerful attacks. Keep in mind that both of these tactics take a while to take effect, meaning that Torterra can be killed by Hidden Power [Ice] in the process.​
  4. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
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    I think a set for Torterra that has been relatively unexpored is a Substitute set. While this set will not help Torterra deal with opposing Grass-types, as Pokemon such as Tangela and Exeggutor are unfortunately more or less hard counters to the turtle, Substitute gives Torterra a far easier time in dealing with opposing Flying-types. Torterra can easily come in on a Pokemon that it will always threaten out, such as Regirock, Golem, Carracosta, Probopass (basically any "bird check", which is quite useful incidentally if you choose to pair Torterra up with a Flying-type of your own) and set up a Substitute. The beauty of this is that even if for some reason these Pokemon choose not to switch, such as to set up Stealth Rock, they can do nothing to Torterra behind a Substitute, and Torterra can easily KO them and walk away with an intact Substitute. Flying-types generally have a good time against Torterra, as they can come in on both STAB moves. With Substitute, not only is the risk of hitting them with one of these moves diminished, it also makes up for Stone Edge's infamous accuracy to a certain extent. Furthermore, continued use of Subsitute and Wood Hammer can get Torterra into Overgrow range pretty quickly, allowing it to launch off what is essentially a 180 BP STAB move before dying. A simple Adamant, max Attack and Speed set should suffice, in order to be able to outrun basically any variant of Golurk. Teammates include Sap Sipper Pokemon, Pokemon that can break Tangela such as Miltank, SD Samurott, Exeggutor, etc. Rotom-S is also a good option as it doesn't like Golem, and can deal with SubBU Braviary well, a Flying-type against which Stone Edge is ineffective at best.
  5. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken with splinters in our teeth, we're driven from our parallels
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    one thing that i think might be really interesting on torterra is roar. everything that really threatens torterra with their STAB moves are weak to SR, so a timely roar can force a presumed counter back out after taking sr damage (upwards of 25% for most of them, too). everything else with ice-type coverage moves or the like aren't really willing to switch into torterra either or else they risk a buttload of damage; stuff like golurk, samurott, and gorebyss don't wanna go near it. even sawk takes a huge chunk from a timely earthquake or wood hammer. if a team carries something like tangela or physically defensive exeggutor, more than likely it's one of their only answers to torterra so it's going to be really easy to take advantage of after you roar it out for the first time. eving torterra is always a guessing game since you're never sure if you should be running max/max to outrun stuff like gorebyss or if you should be eving it to live certain attacks, but with a set like that i'd aim for the latter mostly. you also should probably pair it up with stuff that can take advantage of those grass-types (subcm gardy comes to mind) or other stuff that appreciates birds / rotom-a / etc out of the way, like maybe sawsbuck idk. but then you're stacking weaknesses........
  6. Shuckleking87

    Shuckleking87

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    Not sure if this is going to work, but I'll test it out to see
    Torterra @ Salac Berry
    24 HP/ 252 A/ 232+ Speed
    Swords Dance
    Earthquake
    Wood hammer/bullet seed
    stone edge

    With just max speed adament, it fails to outspeed base 95+ speed nature with the +1, so I felt like this was a number to surpass. Placed extra speed to outspeed 105+, which include kadabra, electabuzz, rapidash, emolga, the simi's, charizard, raichu, and haunter that obviously aren't scarfed, and once the berry is activated. Torterra has enough bulk that it should take average se moves or strong neutral moves while it sets up a SD. I'll let you know how the set works! Bullet seed can work for golem, but wood hammer will bring you closer to salac berry range and is a more reliable damage outputting attack. (69 Post!)
  7. ChuckHades

    ChuckHades

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    I'll throw my hat into the ring I guess.

    Set name: Boosting Tank
    Torterra @ Leftovers
    252 HP/252 Def/4 Spd
    Impish nature

    -Curse
    -Wood Hammer
    -Earthquake
    -Stone Edge/Synthesis

    With access to Rock Polish and Swords Dance, Curse is an often overlooked setup move on Torterra. But it's hard to see why, as Curse massively strengthens Torterra's already impressive Attack and Defense stats. With the boosts, Torterra can now take on some of its previously unmanageable counters, such as Braviary and Swellow. Here are some calcs to show what Torterra can take at +1, and what it can dish out.

    252 Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 176-210 (44.67 - 53.29%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Brave Bird vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 288-342 (73.09 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Sawk Ice Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 152-180 (38.57 - 45.68%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Ice Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 248-292 (62.94 - 74.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Return vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 168-199 (42.63 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 Atk Guts Swellow Brave Bird vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 204-242 (51.77 - 61.42%) -- 96.09% chance to 2HKO

    +1 0 Atk Torterra Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 348-410 (133.33 - 157.08%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 0 Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sawk: 262-310 (90.03 - 106.52%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 0 Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Regirock: 206-246 (56.59 - 67.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 0 Atk Torterra Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Braviary: 294-346 (86.21 - 101.46%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 0 Atk Torterra Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Braviary: 294-348 (72.77 - 86.13%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    As you can see, with max defense, even 4X super effective hits coming from a base 125 attack are 3HKOing Torterra at best. And with a +1 to attack, even with no investment, Torterra picks up several key OHKOs and 2HKOs that the standard tank could not. Bear in mind that getting a boost is not too difficult; with that massive defense, any physical attacker without a super effective move to hit it with can and will be made set up fodder by Torterra.

    Overall, I think this is a solid set to compromise between the sweeping sets (SD and Rock Polish) and the more wall like tank.
  8. Constantinipple

    Constantinipple

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    outside of maybe an RP set i dont think that Torterra should be trying to outspeed things. it can take advantage of its good natural physical bulk to grab some switch ins but i think it should go no further than that. overgrow can work with that set but its still so easy to revenge kill by common scarfers.

    im pretty interested in Torterra and im planning to try a LO (or maybe miracle seed if wood hammer recoil is too annoying combined with LO) + synthesis set
  9. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    I love the discussion so far.

    @Zebraiken, There are few viable phazers in the tier, so anything that is at least somewhat good at phazing is nice. The biggest problem I see is that most of the targets you should be Roar'ing are targets weak to Stone Edge, so you could just use that to to kill the target if you want to take a risk. Roar still seems like a good option on Torterra, but on a more defensively oriented set.

    @ChuckHades, Curse Torterra looks alright. There are still a ton of Pokemon that can break through Torterra (mostly special attackers) after a boost. Torterra functions better as a fast (read: not high Speed fast, but damage-dealing fast) attacker because it has such strong STAB moves. You definitely want to use Synthesis on that set, because otherwise Torterra will be dying way too fast.

    I'm most interested in a combination of CherubAgent's & ShuckleKing's set: Substitute + 3 attacks Torterra with Salac Berry. Torterra can knock itself into Salac range with either Substitute or Wood Hammer, and then it outspeeds a good portion of the tier. It's a shame that you need Jolly to outspeed Pokemon such as Charizard and Electabuzz after a Salac boost.


    Keep up the good work, guys. B)
  10. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~
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    [​IMG]
    Torterra @ Life Orb
    Trait: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant / Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Rock Polish
    - Wood Hammer
    - Earthquake

    It's a double boost Torty. You don't absolutely need Stone Edge since Wood Hammer hits really fucking hard such as 2HKOing Rotom-S and Braviary, and OHKOing Haunter and Swellow after rocks. The point of the set isn't really to set both boosts up (although both would be the most optimal). Use Swords Dance against a defensively oriented team (LO +2 Wood Hammer OHKOs even Musharna) while Rock Polish can be used against frailer, offensive teams that would normally only check Torterra by outspeeding it (with a Jolly nature, you can even outspeed Scarfed Rotom-S/F). In some games, you don't even need to boost and you just spam Wood Hammer and score easy KOs. This set works even better in screens since you should be able to easily get two boosts in. You can also run different items than Life Orb such as Coba Berry, Occa Berry, or Yache Berry to help set up a boost, but the cool thing about this set and Torterra is that you don't even need the boosts to be successful.
  11. Nyara

    Nyara

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    What I'm not liking of sets with Life Orb + Recoil Moves is the fact that you're not gonna do too much on the game, as Torterra will just be able to clean the mess up at the best without EV's on it's HP, and for suicidal offensive juggernauts we have already Pokémon such as Braviary who tends to do a better job. It's natural defenses are pretty good, but it will not live too much without EV's on them. Also, without Stone Edge, it can't just overcome it's flying counters, as they OHKO it before.

    Edit: Fixed some errors with the redaction and names, sowwie.


    [​IMG]
    ScreenTerra @ Light Clay / Leaftovers
    Trait: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 48 Spd / 4 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Reflect
    - Light Screen / Body Slam / Stone Edge
    - Synthesis
    - Leech Seed / Body Slam / Wood Hammer

    This's the support version of Torterra; it's bulk is impressive, and it does have access to Reflect, Light Screen, and Synthesis, so, it can boost to 2+ any of it's defense depending of the enemy team, and proceed to Leech Seed them to the death. It's actually easy to use, just switch-in it against something like Golem, use Reflect if you see Braviary's or the like, Leech Seed them, and use Synthesis until they are down. Anyway, the main objetive of this set is to overcome it's usually counters like Braviary or Sawk, and for support it's team with the help of constant Leech Seeds, forcing switches, and most important; setting up Dual Screens, so, it works better with the help of hazards, and partners who can take use of it's Dual Screens and Leech Seed's, usually frail sweepers or setup users.

    With the current EV spread, Torterra can survive the 66% of time a Choice Banded Braviary's Brave Bird with Reflect up, Leech Seed him back, and being able to overstall it with Synthesis if needed (but Braviary can self K.O itself with the recoil if he had previous damage), and it can do the same with Beartic's Icicle Crash, Dodrio's Brave Bird, and Sawk's Ice Punch, so, it needs 252/204 of physical bulk to being effective, don't try to reduce it; you may even need more EV's on defense if you want to add hazard entry damage and to overcome more times Choice Band Braviary (88% with 252/252).

    As for the special defensive part comes (with the current EV's), Torterra with Light Screen up can stomach and Leech Seed to the oblivion almost any Fire Blast without major boost or investment, like the Charizard's Fire Blast with 252 Spa. It can also stomach almost any BoltBeamer without STAB on Ice Beam, and stomach ANY special Bug attack, like Beautifly's Bug Buzz. It can even overcome Ice Beams without investment of the likes of Dewgong or Lapras, and Articuno's most of the time.

    Now, about the counters, this Torterra is prone to being Taunt Bait, so, it should just set up a screen or Leech Seed the switch on place of remain on the field against Taunt users. Choice Specs users are also a problem for Torterra, as most of them carry a Fire, Bug, or Ice attack, and 2+ Torterra is just unnable to stomach those attacks; it's still rare that they OHKO a 2+ Torterra, so, you can Leech Seed them, and switch to something that can stomach them as you know now that they are using Choice Specs, a good core then is Torterra + Flareon, as Torterra can scout, Reflect, and Leech Seed almost anything for Flareon, and Flareon can take all the boosted Fire, Bugs, and Ice attacks aimed to Torterra all the day. Beware of Choice Spec's STAB Ice Beams, STAB Blizzards, and boosted Overheats, as they can OHKO even a 2+ Torterra. Grass Types and Sap Sipper users are inmune to Leech Seed, so, Body Slam them if you have it, or just set up a screen and switch-out.

    You shouldn't care about neutral or resisted hits, as Torterra can overcome them with the proper boost without problem, or even without boost, it's natural bulk is impressive, so, you should be able to setup and wall without problem anything without a super effective attack.

    Other Options: Leech Seed should be the standar, as it allows Torterra to overcome a most part of it's counters and keep him healthy and able to Dual Screen for it's team more than one time on the game, but Body Slam can be used to take use of it's good base attack, and for not render him totally Taunt bait. Body Slam is prefered as an attack as it can offer paralize support to it's team, but Wood Hammer can also be used to threat Pokémon weaks to it; but it somewhat reduces it's lifespan. Light Screen and the special defense EV's can also be forgoe in order to use an attack, too, but it leaves Torterra totally prone to strong special attackers and Pokémon with Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Bug Buzz/Signal Beam, and Ice Beam/HP Ice, but you can still predict the switch and Body Slam them before leaving. Optionally, you can use Stone Edge on place of Body Slam, as almost all the users of those moves are weak to Stone Edge. Leaftovers can be used on place of Light Clay in order to overcome even more counters (some, but not extent to; defensive Articuno all the time, Life Orb Ampharos, Swanna, Agility Porygon), and for improve it's lifespan, but it should be taken in account how much you need the extra turns of Dual Screens for your team, as it's one of main atractives of this set.
  12. Shovel

    Shovel

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    [​IMG]

    Torterra @ Leftovers
    Trait: Overgrow
    EVs: 212 HP / 220 Atk / 76 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Substitute
    - Leech Seed
    - Earthquake
    - Wood Hammer

    This is pretty much the 4th gen set, but with tweaked evs to fit 5th gen a bit better. With 212 HP evs, I believe Torterra gets a leftovers number (384 hp) as well as 4 easy subs + more with leftovers and Leech Seed. 76 Spd evs let Torterra outspeed base 65s and set up a sub. 220 ATK allows Torterra to 2hko Alomomola with Wood Hammer, with a slight chance of ohkoing once its in Overgrow range. Substitute helps get Torterra into Overgrow range when used in conjunction with Wood Hammer, and also allows Torterra to feel safe behind a decently defensive substitute. Earthquake is a powerful Stab, hitting most of the tier pretty hard and giving Torterra alright enough coverage. Wood Hammer is Torterra's obvious main Stab attack. Leech Seed recovery and leftovers help Torterra's longevity whilst firing off this powerful attack that comes with Powerful Recoil.

    A more defensive approach can be taken with Toxic > Wood Hammer to hit grass types such as Tangela, but even with that Torterra wont want to find itself stuck in against grass types. Partners would include Glaceon or Regice to take out the flying and grass types of the tier with their powerful stab Ice Type attacks. If one does not wish to lose out on coverage, Stone Edge could be used over Wood Hammer, though this is with the cost of the powerful Wood Hammer.

    More on this as I test more..


    216Atk Torterra (+Atk) Wood Hammer vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Alomomola (+Def): 57% - 67% (306 - 362 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 220 ATK allows

    216Atk Overgrow Torterra (+Atk) Wood Hammer vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Alomomola (+Def): 85% - 101% (458 - 542 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 9% chance to OHKO.

    216Atk Overgrow Torterra (+Atk) Wood Hammer vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Battle Armor Armaldo (+Def): 37% - 44% (133 - 157 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
  13. Shuckleking87

    Shuckleking87

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    Well, my torterra set has been underwhelming so far, and has really only been successful in 1/16 matches with the team I'm using. Just the raw initial attacking power isn't there, I really havent used sd, and it's bulk can actually be a problem, as it always seems like it lives to around 31-35% before being killed, which sometimes doesn't activate overgrow and certainly not the berry. I may be using it wrong though, as it is most likely should be used as a bulky revenge killer, but with my offensive team, it really cannot compete. The 1 sweep i had was great, as I outsped his charizard. Maybe sub over sd isnt such a bad idea. Also, the edgequake coverage on torterra is really handy, especially against altaria
  14. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Alright, we are now moving on to the voting stage. Vote for the set that you like the most, and whichever set gets the most votes will be featured in the Archive.
  15. FLCL

    FLCL
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    annoyer

    paco
  16. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    I really like the concept behind Sub Torterra, and I think it could make a fine set. Maybe Toxic could be slashed along with Leech Seed to wear down Tangela, who would otherwise wall Torterra. Being able to lure and Toxic something as resilient as Tangela can be huge for Torterra or any potential teammates. (Sawsbuck could be cool as a partner)

    I was hoping someone would post a Stealth Rock / Synthesis / Earthquake / Wood Hammer Life Orb set, but since that wasn't the case my vote is: Shovel
  17. cbt

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    annoyer
  18. Zebraiken

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    Shovel's set is really cool. :o
  19. Molk

    Molk idk
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    havent played NU in forever but when i did that shit was boss
  20. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    Hm... I'll vote for Annoyer's set. It is very powerful and has only a few things which hard counter it after a boost. Leftovers might be better though, as Wood Hammer's recoil cuts in Torterra's lifespan already.
  21. Punchshroom

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    Let's hope Annoyer's Double Dance Torterra set can see the same success as Double Dance Landorus-T.
  22. thesynchrohero

    thesynchrohero

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  23. Ewil

    Ewil

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    Shovel
    I basically think the same set but with Toxic over Leech Seed (forget about this move ahaha)
  24. Constantinipple

    Constantinipple

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    shovels set looks good
  25. FireMage

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    I honestly see Stone Edge having more utility than Earthquake alongside Wood hammer on both Shovel and Annoyers sets - Yes they both target other mons, but Stone Edge means you're able to get the KO on most of the birds (After Stealth Rock on Shovels set) before you find yourself having to switch out because you can't really do much..

    That said, Annoyer has a really interesting set that seems like it's able to get the job done.
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