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The Next Best Thing

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Nova, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. Homeslice

    Homeslice

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    [​IMG]
    Infernape @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Blaze
    Nature: Naive
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Sp Atk / 252 Spe
    -Fake Out
    -Stealth Rock
    -Close Combat
    -Overheat

    This set's purpose is NOT to go on a wall breaking sweep like most Infernapes are expected to do. This set is simply a suicide lead that can probably bring you a KO or two or put a big chunk of damage into Politoed/Ninetails. Fake Out is used to break sashes that some leads have, even if they aren't using entry hazards. Stealth rock is then used, probably along with some entry hazards of the opponent as well. It should be noted full investment in speed allows Infernape to outspeed all but 8 Pokemon in OU should they also be running full investment in speed and speed ties with Terrakion and Keldeo bar Choice Scarf. The set can reliably place rocks faster than anything else, and you can see who the opposing person's lead will most likely be, which can allow confirmation if Infernape can outspeed or not. That being said, it also should let the player know if it is a sun or rain team- this Infernape should not come out on a Politoed or Ninetails. He only can 2HKO them with CC (3HKO if you throw in Fake Out) which will render his attacking ability useless and leave you at a disadvantage off the start. He should be brought in once either of them have reached about 50% health or have fainted and their entry hazard placer has been brought in. Blaze allows for a boost in power if the Focus sash is activated to Overheat which will leave a bigger chunk in Deoxys-D. This set can also scare away Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Forretress to later points in the game, which makes Magnezone an ideal parter as he can trap all of them and set up through Charge Beam on Forry and Ferro or OHKO with HP Fire on Scizor. This allows a Dragon Type to sweep easier, which is always nice. His indirect influence is as good as his ability to place rocks and annoy people with fake out.
  2. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    Lead Infernape is nifty. I would consider dropping Fake Out for something like U-turn since Fake Out's primary purpose when lead Infernape was popular was to break opposing Focus Sash's of other leads.

    those were the days...
    [​IMG]
    Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Flare Blitz
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge / Thunder Punch / U-turn / Whatever
    - Slack Off

    Pulling this set out of the box from a long time ago. Infernape's niche among the spammer's of physical fire moves is longevity. Slack Off as well as a Stealth Rock neutrality makes you live longer compared to other physical fire type move users like Darmanitan, Victini, and Arcanine. The use of Slack Off parrallal's Life Orb Starmie, who uses Recover in one of its moveslots to stave off residual damage. A nifty trick that this set can do is enter into Blaze range safely and then pull itself out of the brink of death with Slack Off. You will usually find yourself having the time to Slack Off when forcing an opponent out, akin to Starmie. Stone Edge hits Dragonite, Gyarados, and whatever Flying-type that resists Close Combat the hardest out of most choices. Thunder Punch with Iron Fist could be used, but you mise out on Blaze Flare Blitz.
  3. Pan.

    Pan.

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    [​IMG]
    Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 96 Atk / 160 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Nasty Plot
    - Overheat
    - Grass Knot
    - Close Combat

    This .. thing .. is .. a .. beast. And you know what? It requires only one layer of Spikes and Stealth Rocks to be awesome. Don't even imagine the power of a +2 Overheat in Sun. One can assume that Infernape won't be able to shine like a diamond in sun, because skilled player will remove sun asap. So, choose wisely.

    Just to explain the EVs and stuff - I put 160 SAtk EVs to ensure a clean OHKO against stuff like special Jellicent after Rocks the rest went into Atk. Life Orb gives the set 30 % more power and adds also some energy into Close Combat, which is better against Pokémon like Heatran (DON'T MISS FOCUS BLAST) and special defensive Rotom-W :)

    But let's see calcs against some of the heroes in the current OU-metagame - like I said before, let's say there are at least Stealth Rocks up, Spikes are a little bit innaccurate due to the many levitate- and Flying-Pokémon around.

    Rotom-W (OU Bulky Attacker)
    Overheat 77.35 - 91.28% Close Combat 62.36 - 73.86%​
    Gyarados (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance)
    Grass Knot 77.97 - 91.88% Overheat 68.4 - 80.57%​
    Jellicent (OU Special Wall)
    Grass Knot 79.7 - 94.05% Overheat 41.58 - 49%​
    Deoxys-D (OU Bulky Spiker)
    Overheat 79.6 - 94.07% Grass Knot 30.26 - 35.85%​
    Gyarados (OU Choice Band)
    Grass Knot 81.26 - 95.77% Overheat 71.29 - 83.98%​
    Politoed (OU Defensive)
    Grass Knot 70.31 - 83.33% Overheat 61.45 - 72.39%​
    Ninetales (OU Special Attacker)
    Close Combat 84.32 - 99.65% Overheat 81.53 - 96.16%​
    Heatran (OU Specially Defensive)
    Close Combat 93.76 - 111.42% Grass Knot 11.94 - 14.28%​
    Heatran (OU TormenTran)
    Close Combat 94.01 - 111.71% Grass Knot 14.58 - 17.18%​
    Salamence (OU MixMence)
    Overheat 95.16 - 112.08% Close Combat 34.74 - 40.78%​
    Deoxys-D (OU Speedy Spiker)
    Overheat 102.63 - 121.05% Grass Knot 38.81 - 46.05%​
    Deoxys-D (OU Dual Screens)
    Overheat 102.63 - 121.05% Grass Knot 39.47 - 46.71%​
    Haxorus (OU Choice Band)
    Overheat 104.3 - 122.84% Close Combat 68.87 - 81.78%​
    Gastrodon (OU Tank)
    Grass Knot 103.75 - 123.23% Close Combat 61.73 - 72.53%​

    The used calculator is Honko's.

    To be clear - these are the calcs against the OU-"bulky"-Sets. Anything slower than Keldeo, Terrakion, Dragonite, Latios, Latias, Gengar, Espeon, Starmie, Dugtrio, Alakazam, Jolteon & Scarfers shouldn't see the sunrise after a Nasty Plot. Oh, you can't KO me straight? Let's activate Blaze ;)

    Any idea to play this set succesfully? Just add Scarf-Tyranitar, maybe Slowbro / Amoonguss and remove the threats, that I listed up there.


    Hope you enjoy! :)
  4. Homeslice

    Homeslice

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    While this looks good on paper, put into practice it isn't ideal because Fake Out can actually lead to netting you a KO. While it doesn't seem like it really would, the difference between an Alakazam hit by fake out and one that isn't is a huge difference. While I can see where U-Turn is coming from, using it could also probably render your sash useless, which is crucial to the set due to it being able to get 2HKO's and not sure fire OHKO's.
  5. Joeyboy

    Joeyboy Check out my Youtube channel! JoeyboyGames!
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    Whens the vote gunna go up?
  6. Nova

    Nova Palisades
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    Voting Period for Infernape starts now, here are links to each set you can vote for:

    youngjake93
    BROStime
    Joeyboy
    Neliel Tu Oderschvank
    Homeslice
    ThePillsburyDoughBoy
    Pan.

    For voting, just put the username of the person you wish to vote for in bold and a short 1 or 2 sentence explanation for why you chose that set. Voting will be open for 2 days! Feel free to VM or PM me any suggestions for the next test subject if you have any.
  7. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    I honestly like my set the best this time lol.. But I'll vote for joeyboy again. It essentially wins you every weather war because nape destroys all 3 opposing weather starters and brings the sun back up. It also beats jellicent and seriously hurts tentacruel who are the best nape switch ins.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Joeyboy

    I like his set the best because unlike most Infernape sets this one can get past its usual problems with rain, while also murdering common switch-ins such as Jellicent and Hippowdon.
  9. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
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    ThePillsburyDoughBoy

    the principle of Infernape with recovery intrigues me (didn't even know it got Slack Off!) and it seems like a great set, definitely something worth trying out
  10. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    Joeyboy

    Honestly, it was tough deciding between Joeyboy's and PillsburyDoughBoy's sets, but Joeyboy's set actually deals with Infernape's main weakness, which is his weakness to rain in general. Being able to KO all of the weather starters doesn't hurt either.
  11. Alexander.

    Alexander.

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  12. Bluwing

    Bluwing

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  13. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    Joeyboy

    This set pretty much makes the best possible use of Infernape in this heavily rain-dominated metagame. Being walled by Lati@s/Dragonite is a bit lame, but hey what can you do.
  14. Lyconik

    Lyconik

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    Joeyboy

    This set will work great in a offensive sun team due to his pressure against most of rain and sand team.
  15. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Joeyboy

    Really uses Infernape to its best potential while being creative at the same time
  16. mcdanger

    mcdanger

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    getting on the Joeyboy wagon.

    As alexwolf said, the set is good at KOing its main counters, as well as give it an answer to politoad, making it a good way to win the weather wars
  17. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Joeyboy's Infernape is probably the most viable one out there right now. Might give it shot myself.
  18. Nova

    Nova Palisades
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    Voting is now closed and the winner is Joeyboy's Sunny Day Infernape set. This set will be added in the archive featured in the second post of the thread. Congratz to Joeyboy for being the first user to have multiple sets in the archive!

    The next subject is a Pokemon that received one of the best Dream World abilities in Magic Bounce, Espeon!

    [​IMG]


    Personally, I have been using a Life Orb attacker Espeon on my Sun team with a moveset of Morning Sun / Psyshock / Shadow Ball / Hidden Power Fire. This set has the ability to hit hard, taking advantage of Espeon's often neglected Base 130 Special Attack stat while also offering some longevity with Morning Sun that allows her to heal back 2/3 of her HP while Sun is up. Magic Bounce is just a great ability to bounce back status moves and also prevent entry hazards from going up on my side of the field, which is especially useful for a Sun team that uses multiple Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock such as Ninetales and Volcarona.
  19. Milos

    Milos

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    hmm, i've been toying with this for a bit: drypass espeon. tyranitar and scizor, the two main pursuit users in OU, are a big thorn in espeon's side. however, with substitute and baton pass, espeon will almost surely come out on top against both. the idea is to switch in espeon to bounce back some hazards. when your opponent switches in their scizor/tyranitar to pursuit you, you use substitute. from there you can flee safely to a counter, usually with a substitute intact.

    the set is:

    [​IMG]

    Espeon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 6 HP
    Timid Nature

    -Substitute
    -Baton Pass
    -Psyshock
    -Hidden Power Fire

    grass knot could be used over hp fire, since it usually does upwards of ~70% iirc to 156 HP / 0 SpD cb tar, but grass is pretty awful as an attacking type in OU (the only notable things you're hitting for over 80 base power are mamoswine, jellicent, hippo ttar and gyarados). hidden power fire is solely for scizor, although it is also useful for hitting ferrothorn/forretress once you bounce back their hazards.
  20. Onicon

    Onicon

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    Espeon doesn't have too much to work with, so we have to think laterally. Or insanely, depends on.
    [​IMG]
    Espeon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Future Sight
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Psychic / Psyshock / Reflect / Wish / Sunny Day / *whatever you need*
    - Baton Pass

    Instead of setting up CM or Screens like regular Espeons this one sets up "pseudo-hazards". Instead of defensive backup, this one builds up offensive pressure. The idea is, that once you have seen a future attack, the opponent is hardpressed to switch in something in that resists the Psychic type; of course, only when you let it happen. Types that resist or are immune to Psychic are Psychic itself, Steel and Dark; the latter ones are weak to fighting, therefore fighting mons not weak to Scizor's Bullet Punch are good teammates as they keep Tyranitar, Heatran and Ferrothorn from switching it - or not, it doesn't matter because they will eat a Close Combat. Other Psychic types in OU usually are so frail that the additional damage will put them in range of a KO. Starmie will take 35.63 - 42.14% damage, Alakazam 36.9 - 44.04%, Espeon 25.44 - 30.23%.
    As said, good teammates are offensive Fighting types that benefit from the additional pressure of Future Sight. Keldeo and Lucario are very good because they both resist Bullet Punch. Speaking of Scizor, it screws over Reuniclus and Tyranitar alike. Terrakion defensive typing is lacking as usual, but it benefits from Espeon's services. The CB one can immediately KO Gliscor and Jellicent with Stone Edge, as well as the other frail Psychic types with Close Combat, while Gengar is pressed not to come in Future Sight. Reuniclus can survive two of its CC and is immune to hazards, but is 2HKOed with the aid of Future Sight.

    I think I wrote a bit too much about Future Sight and to little about Espeon.
    Additional options: Choice Specs boosts Future Sight even further, but that makes it a Pursuit bait for specially defensive Tyranitar, even with HP Fighting. We don't really know what to put into the third slot. Psychic can KO Keldeo and Terrakion outside of sandstorm but they switch usually, thus Future Sight.
  21. Lyconik

    Lyconik

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    [​IMG]
    Espeon @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 Spd / 4 SDef / 252 SAtk
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Psyshock / Psychic
    - Shadow Ball

    Espeon have such a restricted movepool that is hard to find a original and viable set.
    Anyways, offensive calm mind can surprise the opponent by his good sp atk and speed ; Fight / Psychic / Ghost is a good coverage, couple this with lo + cm and you're ready to make some holes in the opponent's team.
    CB Tyra is always OKHO by +1 Hp fight, and even the defensive version will take a huge amount of damage.
    The choice between Psyshock and Psychic depend on your team. With psyshock you can beat blissey 1v1 and get through some special wall, and with psychic you are not walled by most of the physical wall.
  22. Homeslice

    Homeslice

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    I don't care what smogon's policy review thinks this is a good set
    [​IMG]
    Espeon @ Choice Specs/Scarf
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 Sp Atk / 252 Spe
    Timid/Modest Nature
    -Psychic
    -Shadow Ball
    -Hidden Power [Fighting]
    -Psyshock/Trick

    This set does what all choice item sets do- hit really hard and fast or really fast and hard. With a base stat of 110, Espeon reaches the speed of the top 8 in the tier- while normally speed tying with 4 others (including espeon), HP Fighting gives you an IV of 30 in Speed, so you would be slower bar their HP making them lose an IV or scarf. The scarf set allows espeon to reliably become a revenge killer, should it not be facing a faster user with a scarf set. It should be noted that Max Speed EV and postitive nature Keldeo, Terrakion, and Infernape will outspeed you if you are using choice specs and not a Timid nature, or facing one of those scarfed under the same circumstances without a Timid nature. Psychic is the main STAB move of this set, with shadow ball coming in to hit other Psychic types and Ghost types. HP Fighting rounds off the set to take care of Dark types who think they can pursuit and get hit with SE damage, most notably Tyranitar. It should also be noted Scizor completely stops Espeon should it be carrying pursuit, so have a Magnezone or Heatran would be of great assistance to sweep. Psyshock is used if you expect Blissey or such to switch into you. Trick can obviously be used to force physical attackers into one attack with no bones (specs) or cripple walls in general. Espeon already has a fantastic 130 Base Sp Atk, so Choice Scarf would be ideal while Choice Specs can be used if you just want a pure powerhouse. The main drawback between the choice is power versus Speed, as always. Most of the time, you would want the speed, however Espeon is fast enough to outspeed most of it's counters bar Gengar, unless you consider Starmie, Alakazam, and Lati@s pretty strong counters to Espeon. Some calcs can be found below, keep in mind these are to mainly show the difference between Natures and Specs/Scarf, while showing how relatively effective it is at killing Tyranitar and Lati@s:

    Show Hide
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Espeon (Neutral) Hidden Power (Fighting) vs 252HP/252SpDef Tyranitar (+SpDef): 82% - 97% (332 - 392 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. Probable OHKO after hazard damage.

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Espeon (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Fighting) vs 252HP/252SpDef Tyranitar (+SpDef): 89% - 105% (360 - 428 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 35% chance to OHKO.

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Espeon (+SAtk) Shadow Ball vs 4HP/0SpDef Levitate Latias (Neutral): 75% - 89% (228 - 270 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Espeon (+SAtk) Shadow Ball vs 4HP/0SpDef Levitate Latios (Neutral): 87% - 103% (264 - 312 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 20% chance to OHKO.

    252SpAtk Espeon (+SAtk) Psychic vs 4HP/0SpDef Terrakion (Neutral): 109% - 128% (354 - 416 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

    252SpAtk Espeon (Neutral) Psychic vs 4HP/0SpDef Keldeo (Neutral): 98% - 117% (320 - 380 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 93% chance to OHKO.
    (Keldeo and Terrakion have the same stats, the two just show the difference between Modest and Timid on Scarf sets)

    252SpAtk Espeon (Neutral) Psychic vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Tentacruel (Neutral): 69% - 82% (254 - 300 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Espeon (Neutral) Psychic vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Tentacruel (Neutral): 103% - 122% (378 - 446 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
    (Difference between Specs and Scarf as shown on a Tentacruel, both with Timid nature)
  23. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    Meet Bulky Espeon:
    [​IMG]

    my pic is the best
    Espeon (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Psychic / Hidden Power Fire
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Baton Pass / Heal Bell

    Now most Espeon's receive the 2HKO from either Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball or Power Whip, but not Bulky Espy. Most Espeon don't capitalize on their speed, so why not put it into their lacking defense? Protect+Wish+Protect not only puts it out of Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball range, but it also gives it a means of reliable recovery that other Espeon sets outside of Espeon in Sun lack. Surely the one thing you have on your mind here is why not run Xatu with a WishPassing set? Well this is where bulky Espeon tries to make its niche, with either Heal Bell or Baton Pass. Heal Bell is an amazing support move which can bring new life back to a team and along with Wish makes Espeon a all-around healer for a team. However, Espeon can also run Baton Pass to escape the clutches of Tyranitar's Pursuit (no xatu's u-turn does not escape Tyranitar's Pursuit). In addition, dry-passing can act as a pseudo U-turn to get stuff in safely/with a better matchup. That combined with Protect makes it exceedingly annoying to attack with a Choiced Pokemon. Watch Pursuiting Tyranitar's for giving Terrakion that +1!. Baton Pass also goes together with Wish to get your Wish reciever in safely. You NEED a Pokemon to capitalize on Ferrothorn/Skarmory/Forretress since this Espeon without Hidden Power Fire won't be able to kill them immediately. Instead you use Protect+Wish stalling to gauge when they are going to continue attacking you to safely switch to your threat to their Steel-type. 28 Spd EVs are used to outspeed Jolly Breloom and Politoed, but feel free to drop them into bulk.


    edit: @Homeslice Trick would be a much better fitting option in the fourth slot.
  24. Homeslice

    Homeslice

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    Smogon says Espeon can't learn trick, I'll look into it
    edit: Serebii says it can, I'll add it, thanks
  25. Deglas

    Deglas

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    Dec 21, 2012
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    77
    [​IMG]
    Espeon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Yawn
    - Baton Pass
    - Psychic
    - Protect/Substitute/whatever floats your boat

    Behold Yawn Espeon. This set aims to punish switchins, common or otherwise, to Espeon. The idea is to use Yawn on a incoming counter, such as Tyranitar or Scizor. After they are hit, you can use Baton Pass to scout their move (typically a switch). Protect can be used to ensure sleep from Yawn against U-Turning Scizor, Scarf Tyranitar, Weavile, and other things that might stay in. Substitute is also useful to pass to sweepers. This set works best when partnered with a setup sweeper, because it can give them a free turn easily, by pseudo-phazing something with Yawn and Baton Pass to a sweeper thats sets up on the switchin or, if your opponent is that stupid, the sleeping Pokemon.

    EDIT: I realized that I forgot to mention that this beats Skill Swap Deo-D easily. Yawn turn one, Baton Pass turn two.

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