Project The NU Theorymon Project [New Slate: Check Post #94]

[bb skarm]

OK, so I'm actually really happy with the new discussion!

Of course, I'm biased, and I think Solid Rock Regirock is the best Theorymon, just cause it can simply act better as a tank. Nothing really much to it.

Okei so:

(+Drain Punch)

(+Huge Power)

(+Flash Fire)

(+Earth Power)

OK, so Plusle looks a bit broken, Sceptile can hit Steel-types, Hariyama now has recovery, and Pyroar makes an excellent pivot into Fire-type attacks.

Anyways, I know I said "don't submit changes that may make a Pokemon broke", but tbh, it's Plusle. It's slow and frail. I don't think that can be so bad. It's not like Azumarill in OU whose got awesome bulk.

 

[Evan.]

Something that would be cool is Knock Off Cacturne. It gives it a reliable Physical Dark STAB, decreases it's reliance on Sucker Punch and greatly improves it's viability among the physical attackers in the tier.

Edit: missed it by that much

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Earth Power does give Sceptile 4MSS syndrome (Especially on the Sub + 4 attacks set), though then again he has a more reliable way of hitting Steel-types. (Though in my opinion now being able to hit Fire-types is a bit better).

Huge Power Plusle would give it a niche, though it still has to face competition, and it's movepool last time I checked was pretty lacking. He does get Wild Charge, Return and very niche options like Iron Tail but that's it. He will likely just be resorted to being a offensive support Pokemon. (Though even in that role he's outclassed by Liepard)

Flash Fire Pyroar gives us a very good check to Fire Spam (He beats all common Fire-types with this ability with Hyper Voice). Though he still will be frail and he hates Superpower Flareon and Focus Blast Typhlosion.

Drain Punch Hariyama gives it a reliable STAB to use on both Assault Vet and Lefties sets. Sadly though he's still shat on by Granbull and Slurpuff, but still though what can you really do to prevent that Flavor wise?

 

[Zenza]

Am I the only one who doesn't see EP sceptile as a big deal at all? It already has access to focus blast which is much stronger (at the cost of awful accuracy albeit). Also if u were to run earth power over focus blast u can't hit ferro very hard unless u run hp fire. The only thing I really see earth power helping is with galge, and sceptile already has hp ice which isn't too much weaker. Edit bc I just remembered EP gives scep a better way to hit fire types, but focus blast already hits pyroar so I really don't see it as such a good improvement

 

[Yellow Cheese]

Am I the only one who doesn't see EP sceptile as a big deal at all? It already has access to focus blast which is much stronger (at the cost of awful accuracy albeit). Also if u were to run earth power over focus blast u can't hit ferro very hard unless u run hp fire. The only thing I really see earth power helping is with galge, and sceptile already has hp ice which isn't too much weaker. Edit bc I just remembered EP gives scep a better way to hit fire types, but focus blast already hits pyroar so I really don't see it as such a good improvement

I get what you're on about, but now Physical defensive and specs Dragalge cannot switch in, since it will get 2HKOed at best by EP, while HP ice misses out on this without SR (also special defensive Dragalge have a slim chance to get 2HKOed after SR)

252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 185-218 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 125-148 (37.4 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 138-164 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 94-112 (28.1 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

 

[Disjunction]

tbh huge power Plusle just seems really bad. Plusle has a disgustingly bad physical movepool with the only moves worth mentioning being wild charge, quick attack, and obligatory return/frustration. You have to run HP Fire and Grass Knot in order to hit Ferroseed and Rhydon, but with no Sp. Atk investment, you're going to have a hard time finding 2hko's on stuff that ISN'T quad-weak to grass and fire (stuff like Vileplume, Regirock, Prinplup). With full Sp. Attack investment, Plusle hits a whopping 244 attack so the entire set seems like a moot point.

I think the mini-tour is a great example of how amazing drain punch yama is. I've seen it on most teams that have been posted in replays. It gives yama a reliable way to mitigate all the chip damage that eventually spells its demise. Yama also has more room to invest in special defense because of his colossal HP stat. Yama still loses to a lot of mons that gurdurr would also lose to, but

252 SpA Life Orb Mesprit Psychic vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Hariyama: 416-491 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mesprit Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 374-445 (100.2 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I know it's a bit of an extreme example, but it shows you can pick mons you want and don't want to check yama.
But yeah, basically all Drain Punch does is make yama is a much better gurdurr is what I'm trying to get at.

Idk, Flash Fire Pyroar and EP Sceptile seem cute and all but they seem pretty circumstantial? Earth Power Scept pretty much only hits Drag, Muk, and any steel that you don't want to risk with Focus Blast. Flash Fire Pyroar seems good as a check to fire spam on paper, but then you realize that to switch it in, you have to go through a coin flip. "Will they use Eruption or Focus Blast?" Which, y'know, is definitely an improvement from what Pyroar did to fire spam previously. Just, to me, it doesn't seem like it makes the pokemon any more viable than it is now. Especially when we have hard counters to fire spam laying in the back. (Drain Punch also helps av yama check fire spam because he doesn't die to chip js :])

I would like to bring up a mon of my own if that's fine.

I've been playing around with the idea of Defog Rotom-S. I feel that Defog would provide Rotom-S with a cool new niche as being the only viable electric type Defogger in the tier. Unlike Pelipper (who does a similar job) he doesn't have any quad weaknesses and gets STAB from his momentum grabbing move (volt switch). Rotom-S is also the fastest defensive defogger and has options to go mixed defensive, specially defensive, or standard physically defensive. With other utility options such as Will-O-Wisp, Pain Split, and T-wave, I believe Rotom-S would be able to stand out from other defoggers in the tier.

 

[Master B8s]

Drain Punch Hariyama- Lets it compete with Gurdurr for a bulky Fighting type, It has close combat, while Gurdurr still has to rely on Drain Punch for a strong Fighting Stab, though it does lack Mach Punch. None the less its probably my favorite.

Huge Power Plusle- Sorry this one is just ass. It has no way of getting passed Rhydon, unless you run Iron Tail or Dynamic Punch with shit accuracy. A shallow physical move pool lets it down, and someone compared it to Azumarill, Azumarill has the move pool to work with the boost, With just the attack stat, Plusle is pretty worthless.

Flash Fire Pyroar- Checks fire spam pretty well and can spam it with a flash fire boost. But Typlosion and Magmortar can easily predict a switch with focus blast, and that will hurt it. Pretty much forces 50/50s for both sides of the fight, which is part of pokemon.

Earth Power Sceptile- Gives it a strong coverage move since Sceptile has a fairly shallow special move pool. HP Rock gives it nice EdgeQuake coverage, though it does prefer Ice/Fire, but still viable. pretty much nabs the OKHO on pyroar 93% i think without rocks, with em forget about it its an OHKO. Lets it hit Dragalge hard, overall i like it.

 

[InfinityX000]

So much hate on Plusle. Seriously. With huge power plus 252 ev's it hits an effective base 130 Atk. With a Jolly nature and a scarf, it outspeeds +2 Barbaracle. There is no reason for Plusle not to run iron tail. With a band it can 2HKO most of the tier. Make it Adamant and it can OHKO lot of it. With a scarf it can outspeed and OHKO many things weak to it.
Calcs:

Hide

Choice Band
252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Plusle Iron Tail vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 412-486 (129.5 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Plusle Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Uxie: 195-231 (55 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Plusle Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 276-325 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Plusle Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 367-433 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Plusle Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 402-474 (93.7 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Choice Scarf
252+ Atk Huge Power Plusle Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 446-528 (170.8 - 202.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Huge Power Plusle Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 290-344 (101.3 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Plusle Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 510-600 (175.2 - 206.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Honestly I would run this thing. CB makes it a p. good wallbreaker for things like Audino (that don't carry EQ) and it can wreck slower pokes.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Since I already discussed the theorymons, I have a theorymon of my own.
What if Arbok was Poison/Dark?

Think about it, Arbok has a lot of qualities for an addition of a Dark-typing:

1. Rather vicious appearance.

2. Mainly notable for being used by bad guys in the actual games.

3. The species of snake Arbok is based on is probably the most deadly kind of snake.

Even if these aren't valid, it just makes sense for Arbok to be part Dark. The Dark typing wouldn't be too shabby on him, either. For one, he gets STAB Sucker Punch, will have a niche in being one of the few Dark-types in the tier that can beat Slurpuff (Not so much Granbull tho) thanks to its Poison-STAB, and it also allows him to be a rather decent check to Mesprit not running HP Ground. However Arbok does lose its Fairy and Fighting resistances with the new typing, though Intimidate can make up for that a bit.

 

[Oshony PokeGod]

On my phone so no pictures, but....

Aqua jet/ice shard walrein, kinda like dewgong cuz im sure walruses and seels live in the same ocean.

Priority holds walrein back, cuz 65 speed isnt the fastest, so i guess belly drum + stab ice shard/aqua jet would help it become a little more viable.

 

[Zenza]

Two things I think could be cool:
1. Knock off Primeape
Knock off on Primeape would be excellent because it would suddenly outclass sawk due to it's far better speed, and it's access to gunk shot letting it easier break moms like tangela and sometimes slurpuff.
2. Aqua jet Kingler with tough claws. One May ask why kingler would be used over gatr if it got aqua jet? The reason is mainly due to a tough claws aqua jet at +2 coming from a kingler can easily pick off slightly weakened offensive mons, while the combination of crab hammer and x scissor/knock off would destroy walls

 

[InfinityX000]

I too have a few ideas. The first idea is Prankster Vullaby, which can use priority roost and defog much better than murkrow can. The second idea is Dry Skin Camerupt, although it might sound a bit broken. It would eliminate a 4x weakness. Reasoning: It is based on a camel, which lives in the desert. The third is Adaptability Stoutland. This would make its normal spam actually do something powerful, and dogs are mammals, which are known to adapt.
EDIT: I'd also like to suggest Tail Glow Phione. Wouldn't be too broken cuz 80 base speed.

 

[fidy]

Why not give probopass levitate? It would get rid of a x4 weakness to ground plus its sprite is already floating so it would make sense.

 

[Yellow Cheese]

Why not give probopass levitate? It would get rid of a x4 weakness to ground plus its sprite is already floating so it would make sense.

Magnet pull and Sturdy are already better than levitate.

How about Ice Beam Rotom-F?

 

[scorpdestroyer]

You may submit theorymons any time you want, but please try to keep it at a maximum of 1-2 of them. When submitting a theorymon, please don't make it mindless like Boomburst Mesprit. Make it actually be logical, and give it an actual use.

If you've paid attention to the OU theorymon thread, you'd have noticed that this was heavily discouraged. Instead of buffs that only affect the buffed Pokemon, instead suggest buffs that would affect the metagame as a whole better (eg. Defensive buffs or offensive buffs to check certain Pokemon better, or to fulfill a role). For example Ice Beam Rotom-F doesn't really buff anything besides giving Rotom-F a more accurate STAB move (ie. mindless offensive buff); it doesn't even make Rotom-F significantly better so that it can use its typing to check ______. Meanwhile, Roost Mantine was better because it gave Mantine a better place on (bulky) offense as it no longer had to rely on the momentum-sapping RestTalk, got a free moveslot and could check rain a lot better. Correct me if im wrong but I'd much rather discuss theorymons that have a larger impact on NU rather than buffing a Pokemon alone.

Also for the record Scarf Plusle doesn't actually outspeed +2 Barbaracle. I don't think it's that good of a theorymon myself, given that it has pretty bad physical coverage and still can't get past Ground-types.

 

[InfinityX000]

Also for the record Scarf Plusle doesn't actually outspeed +2 Barbaracle. I don't think it's that good of a theorymon myself, given that it has pretty bad physical coverage and still can't get past Ground-types.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but +2 really means double right? if so its 475 speed to 470. Also you really wouldn't bring it out till ground type is dead, but even ground types that don't resist normal or are weak to steel can't safely switch in.
EDIT: Talkin bout Adamant barbaracle.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but +2 really means double right? if so its 475 spd to 470.

Nope, you need base 110 Spe Scarfers and above to outrun Jolly Barbaracle at +2, which has 516 Speed

 

[Genuis]

I'll comment on the remaining three theorymons plus a small follow-up on Pyroar.
Huge Power Plusle: I can't see how this would change anything tbh, a nice attack stat and good speed are offset by horrendous defences and a non-existent physical movepool as people have already mentioned. Still hopelessly outclassed by Electivire and Luxray as offensive physical electric types. NU already has these two, which already set themselves apart from generic electric types through their wider movepools that electric types tend to lack. Plusle could still be a decent attacker with this buff, but if one wanted to make Plusle more viable, a special-attack-doubling ability would be much better, although sadly none exists as of yet.
Earth Power Sceptile: While this is simply just an offensive buff, I like the sound of this one the most. Although it now leaves you completely walled by flying-types on Sub 3 attacks sets, in exchange you no longer need to worry about the rage-inducing focus miss to take on steel types. Although earth power is still at heart unnecessary, a way to hit Dragalge finally for solid damage is a huge plus.
Drain Punch Hariyama: Sure, drain punch would be a more reliable STAB without the defence drops Close Combat causes which hampers Hariyama's great bulk, but its great bulk also makes it that the small amount of HP gained won't be worth losing all that power - 45 base power points to be exact, in my opinion. On the flipside however, as people have already said eliminating the chip damage that plagues the assault vest set in particular is great, and I agree it probably makes a better check to fire spam than Flash Fire Pyroar - although the scenario I kept playing out in my head was a switch into a will-o from Weezing and then immediately threaten the opposing team a bunch with your handy new fire nuke. Unfortunately I think this point will be rendered moot when/if flash fire Typhlosion is released, who would be arguably more dangerous.

 

[MicfiJasan]

Drain Punch Hariyama: This just makes so much sense. While his huge base HP stat kind of mitigates the recovery, and the fact that it is an over 50% drop in power, the overall buff is still great. He currently has no way to recover HP outside of leftovers and rest at the moment, neither of which work with Assault Vest, so the viability of that set increases drastically. Overall, Drain Punch gives him a nice little tool to extend his longevity on bulkier sets where the defense drops from CC are undesirable.

Huge Power Plusle: While not broken in the slightest, Plusle is better than I think a lot of people give credit for. For example:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Plusle Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 169-201 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery.
4 SpA Plusle Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 216-256 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is one of the bulkiest Physical walls in NU. Most Ground-types that resist Wild Charge are 2HKOed by Return. Those that aren't take a nice chunk from Grass Knot. The best set I found after some cursory calcs would be Banded with Wild Charge/Return/Grass Knot/Quick Attack with a Lonely/Naughty nature. Banded Grass Knot is kind of weird, but it just helps him out so much. He is still walled HARD by Ferroseed, Steelix, and Piloswine, and HP Fire may not even get the 2HKO on specially defensive Ferroseed. He'll be good, but not broken.

Flash Fire Pyroar: There are so many Fire Pokemon that I feel would appreciate Flash Fire, simply because it makes them better checks to each other. Pyroar is actually somewhat unique because he still has to fear Focus Blasts from Typhlosion and Magmortar. But he's also faster than both of them naturally, so if he predicts right, he'll be in pretty good shape. He could potentially also switch into HP Fires, but that seems like something that's extremely unlikely to happen. I would expect to see more specially defensive Seismitoad, as he's one of the few things that can take a Flash Fire boosted Specs Fire Blast.

Earth Power Sceptile: I get it, he can now hit Steel-types instead of missing them cuz Focus Blast has low accuracy. In all seriousness, I can see the reliability helping him quite a bit, especially against Pokemon like Ferroseed where he'd have to land Focus Blast twice to KO. The biggest benefit is actually against other Fire-types like Magmortar and Typhlosion, securing a stronger attack without sacrificing accuracy. Dragalge is another one that was mentioned that we beat better now. Not much else to say.

 

[bb skarm]

Anyways, I wanted to wait a bit to see if any new comments have been made, but none have been. This is your last chance to submit and theorymons before I post a new slate tomorrow, I'll be making the slate a bit bigger to improve discussion.

 

[skies]

Sucker Punch Pangoro
Pangoro is a very cool Pokemon that I'm especially fond of; however, its Speed is quite a let down and truly holds it back from shining. I was thinking "What can make Pangoro better, and what makes sense?" Which I think all theorymons are based around, but anyways, Sucker Punch and Knock Off were my two thoughts. I decided I was going to go with Sucker Punch because its flavor is more logical, having Iron Fist to make this make more sense. Sucker Punch is great to help beat a lot of faster threats like Mesprit which would give it trouble with Dazzling Gleam otherwise. It's a buff, not too strong, and it's not too broken because Sucker Punch is reliant on the opponent and it's not boosted by Iron Fist .

 

[Master B8s]

Sucker Punch Pangoro
Pangoro is a very cool Pokemon that I'm especially fond of; however, its Speed is quite a let down and truly holds it back from shining. I was thinking "What can make Pangoro better, and what makes sense?" Which I think all theorymons are based around, but anyways, Sucker Punch and Knock Off were my two thoughts. I decided I was going to go with Sucker Punch because its flavor is more logical, having Iron Fist to make this make more sense. Sucker Punch is great to help beat a lot of faster threats like Mesprit which would give it trouble with Dazzling Gleam otherwise. It's a buff, not too strong, and it's not too broken because Sucker Punch is reliant on the opponent and it's not boosted by Iron Fist .

Honestly, mach punch is a much more useful move for Pangoro though. Sure sucker punch is stronger, but in a way the opponent can control it, and play around it if they can force you to go for it. Mach punch gets the iron fist boost, while fighting is overall a better attacking type. Plus most of the stuff you'd be hitting with sucker punch Pangoro can outspeed with investment, so it might as well just run crunch.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

Defog Altaria people!!
It'd be so good!!

 

[soulgazer]

Yeah Defog would be quite nice for Altaria tbh. I can see something like Dragon Pulse / Roost / Defog / Toxic | Flamethrower | Perish Song working well as Altaria has the space to fit Defog, and it will give it more uses too. A defogger not weak to Electric-types is nice, and while some people might think that 4x weak to Ice-types is bad, Dragon- and Flying-type gives Altaria some nice resists that other Defog users don't have (and Altaria has Leftovers!!).

Even an offensive set of Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Roost / Defog with a Life Orb sounds cool ngl

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

exactly! Ice isn't exactly a common coverage move and with Roost + Natural cure, it'll stay relatively healthy and can support a lot of teams structures