Project ORAS NU Theorymons

[Louna]

Primeape + Knock Off:

Looks like cool, but regarding more closely, Primeape will suffer even more than now from the 4MSS running Knock Off mean you need to forgot the idea to run Stone Edge/Gunk Shot/Thunder Punch/Ice Punch or Earthquake, and then getting walled by common things like Audino mega, bulky Charizard, Vileplume, Gabodor without having the possibility do hit them decently. I agree of course Knock Off give to Primeape a lot more offensive pressure on bulkier build, but his ability to run 2 coverage move that can change regarding to the team/preference was for me a huge part of Primeape, so i'm kinda mitigates about this one, it'll be great and limit Primeape's ability to lure wall at the same time.

Piloswine + Slack Off:

That looks like sooo amazing, Piloswine is already a cool ice check, but with the addition of Slack Off, it probably turn it as the best ice check in the tier. (Miltank struggle to wear down Aurorus quickly) In addition, with a bulkier spread, Piloswine can be able to be a decent check to Swellow and Archeops. In addition, with Slack Off, Piloswine will be able to 1v1 Xatu more easily because it actually need to take some damages to set up his rocks. Altough it always loose to common spinner like Hitmonchan / Kabutops / Shiftry.

Golurk + Shadow Tag

That looks like pretty decent, as Golurk will forces Lanturn to run enough speed to outrun itself getting past of some bulk. I can imagine scarf Shadow Tag Golurk being a things to trap things like Magmortar, Aggron, Kabutops, Steelix & cie. While with a colbur berry, it can trap more easily Skuntank, or fighting type. It can also turn things like Aggron choice locked as a set up folder and then just use Rock Polish to deal some damages to the opposing team.

Ferroseed + Rapid Spin:

I really dislike this one, Ferroseed doesn't have a free slot to run Rapid Spin, Thunder Wave, Leech Seed, SR/Spikes, Knock Off are all impossible to forgot for Ferroseed in my opinion, thats these 4 moves that turn Ferroseed as an amazing pivot. Also, due to the lack of reliable recovery, Ferroseed is too pressured by common rocker to spin properly.

Torterra + Shell Smash:

That looks cash, i like the idea of having a Physical, or even a mixed set up sweeper that can use Grass STAB, even more due to the 2nd STAB of Torterra, the Grass/Ground coverage looks so threatening after a Shell Smash, I can't see anything that can take that properly, maybe Scyther, but Torterra can run Stone Edge to smash this bug. Overall it looks a cool idea, even thought i imagine Torterra + Shell Smash being a pain when building.

Nomination:

I know we are all dreaming of a decent flying STAB on Archeops that doesn't forces us to be no item or Sitrus Berry. So my nom is:

Archeops + Air Slash

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Knock Off Primeape

Most Fighting types can learn this move so it makes sense. Primeape isn't walled by Ghost types anymore, but it is now walled by most bulky Poison types as it needs Close Combat, U-turn, Knock Off and Gunk Shot. A big upgrade, will make the Band set much harder to wall.

Primeape @ Choice Band
Ability: Defiant / Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot
- U-turn

Same set as standard pretty much, but now it can harm Ghost types!

Slack Off Piloswine

Who wouldn't like having reliable recovery? Makes it a much better Electric-type check now, as it won't get worn down throughout the match. Also a great alternative to defensive Torterra as a bulky Stealth Rock setter, as Xatu will not enjoy taking a STAB Icicle Crash to the face so it's unlikely that it will switch in. Another big upgrade.

Piloswine @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Atk / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Slack Off

Since Ice/Ground is unresisted in NU apart from Rotom-F Piloswine can easily fit in Slack Off. Again, this is basically a slightly different version of its preexisting set.

Rapid Spin Ferroseed

Hmm...I'm not sold on this one personally. It's got bad enough 4mss already - Stealth Rock, Leech Seed, Gyro Ball, Thunder Wave, Spikes, and now you want to throw Rapid Spin in there as well? It will be a decent Rapid Spinner, but it still can't touch most bulky Ghost types. I'd rather use Kabutops or Sandslash personally.

Shadow Tag Golurk

Um what the hell? Wasn't Shadow Tag banned below Ubers? Anyway this makes no sense flavour wise and would be broken as hell, it could easily trap any choice locked Normal, Fighting or Electric type and destroy them. Not in a million years.

Shell Smash Torterra

Yay, I can't believe my nomination got through! This would turn it into one of the best physical sweepers in the tier, with a Jolly nature it can outrun Scarf Rotom-S and between Wood Hammer, Earthquake and Stone Edge it has fantastic coverage. Going mixed is a possibility too, although that means you have to compromise its bulk. It still can't touch Tangela and Weezing though, and even at +2 can't outrun Scarf Primeape and Jynx.

Torterra @ White Herb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Earthquake
- Wood Hammer
- Stone Edge

Late game, this set is very powerful. Shell Smash fixes Torterra's middling Speed while taking its Attack up to an impressive 634. Earthquake is the main STAB you'll be using most of the time. Wood Hammer wrecks most bulky Water types. Stone Edge hits the Bug and Flying types that resist your STABs.

My nomination: Electric / Dark Luxray with Strong Jaw.

Unique typing and buffed STABs will finally give the lynx with anime hair a chance to stand out in the NU metagame. It has all the elemental fangs, which would hit for around the power of a STAB Knock Off thanks to Strong Jaw. It also wouldn't need to run Wild Charge for STAB anymore, increasing its longevity. It makes sense flavour wise too, as it's based on a big cat and they typically dispatch their prey by crushing its windpipe with their jaws.

 

[Shadestep]

Hi, thanks for the discussion guys, all fair points. Shadow Tag Golurk would obviously be usable though, else I would not have posted it! n_n
Anyways, on to voting. Vote for your two favourites:

+ Knock Off

+ Slack Off

+ Rapid Spin

+ Shadow Tag

+ Shell Smash

Voting ends on sundaynight, as always.

 

[nv]

Knock Off

Slack Off

 

[poh]

Piloswine + Slack Off
Torterra + Shell Smash

 

[Louna]

Slack Off Piloswine
Shadow Tag Golurk

 

[Sobi]

Primeape with Knock Off, ability to hit Psychic-types is useful although it'll probably suffer from 4MSS :o

kinda split on piloswine w/ slack off & torterra w/ Shell Smash since both ideas are really good but my vote goes to

Torterra with Shell Smash, turns it into a great physical attacker

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Shell Smash Torterra

Knock Off Primeape

 

[Take Azelfie]

Knock Off

Slack Off

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Slack Off
Rapid Spin Ferroseed

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Piloswine and Torterra.

 

[Blast]

Knock Off Primeape
Slack Off Piloswine

 

[Rapture]

Shadow Tag golurk

Slack off piloswine

 

[Machineae]

Shadow Tag Golurk for obvious reasons

Knock Off Primeape

 

[Mq]

Slack off piloswine
rapid spin ferroseed

 

[erisia]

Piloswine + Slack Off
Ferroseed + Rapid Spin

 

[JingyMongo]

Ape + Seed

God forbid having more stuff with eviolite + bulk + recover (Piloswine) or access to (S)Hell Smash (Torterra): Golurk with Shadow Tag doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[Shadestep]

Piloswine wins this week, closely followed up by Primeape!
1. Piloswine + Slack Off (10 Votes)

2. Primeape + Knock Off (7 Votes)

3. Ferroseed + Rapid Spin (4 Votes)

3. Torterra + Shell Smash (4 Votes)

5. Golurk + Shadow Tag (3 Votes)

This weeks slates will be:

+ Analytic

+ Knock Off & Leaf Storm

+ Nasty Plot

+ Defog

+ Flower Veil

Discuss your thoughts on the slates, their potential impact on the metagame, what it would change for the Pokemon and team support, what VR-ranks they would be, cool sets, etc!

 

[Rapture]

Easily the best thing on this slate, analytic hydro + coverage is crazy good at wearing down common water checks like ferroseed and lanturn. A good ablility also makes floatzel even more of a menace to play around for offense.

Leaf storm is kinda legit on Cacturne. Would make specs the best item on cacturne imo since leaf storm dents even the sturdiest of resists, and a set of Leaf Storm / Dark Pulse / Giga Drain / Spikes has a lot of offensive utility

Nasty Plot makes ghost a lot better. Even though the speed tier is garbage for an offensive cleaner / sweeper, Its typing makes it pretty easy to get a chance to boost up. Another check to fat mons like audino doesnt hurt its potential either.

Second worst mon on this slate, defog is cute but defensive sets are already pretty bad so I only see use for it on an offensive set. That's not entirely a bad thing since Altaria tends to have nothing better to run in the fourth slot anyway.

The least useful buff this week imo. Lum Berry is already Lilligants best item and Substitute is a good last move option so i don't see much merit in this change.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Aw man, I was really looking forward to Smash Torterra.

Analytic Floatzel

Right...Analytic on a Pokémon with base 115 speed...sure. It will help Special sets, but physical sets prefer Water Veil anyway. Defiant or Competetive would've been better IMO

Knock Off + Leaf Storm Cacturne

Basically a slower but more powerful Shiftry. Again, not a great buff. Prankster would've been better IMO as that would give it priority Spikes.

Nasty Plot Haunter

Hell yeah, now we're talking! After an NP, it's virtually unwallable, and it can also lure in Skuntank and Destiny Bond it.

Defog Altaria

I was surprised this thing didn't get Defog anyway, but it's a huge upgrade nonetheless. With access to Heal Bell, it'll make the defensive set much more viable as it won't be totally outclassed by Mega Audino anymore.

Grass Veil Lilligant

A huge improvement for sure, as being immune to status (mostly) is huge. The stat drops, not so much, as only Sticky Web really bothers Lilligant. Its movepool is still ass, but a good upgrade.

Nomination: No Guard Pelliper

As Mega Pidgeot taught us, Hurricane is extremely spammable when accuracy is no longer a factor. Pelliper also has access to STAB Hydro Pump and Blizzard to abuse No Guard with, and at the moment there aren't any viable offensive Defoggers in the tier (barring Skuntank who generally has better things to do). This would give Pelipper a strong niche over its rivals.

 

[lolbro]

Analytic Floatzel

Right...Analytic on a Pokémon with base 115 speed...sure. It will help Special sets, but physical sets prefer Flame Body anyway. Defiant or Competetive would've been better IMO

hi, im starmie. anyway, analytic floatzel helps out with catching things on the switch and hitting them really hard. Especially considering it forces out most of the fast pokemon in nu. plus nobody really uses physical floatzel

Knock Off + Leaf Storm Cacturne

Basically a slower but more powerful Shiftry. Again, not a great buff. Prankster would've been better IMO as that would give it priority Spikes and Taunt.

ofc people go back to this, its funny cause prankster wouldnt really help it, and it also doesn't learn taunt. These two moves however, aid it in forcing switches in order to layup spikes, and just in general gives the sd set a hge boost in such a powerful dark stab that doesnt require the other person attacking you.

np haunter is broken, or something like that.

defog altaria makes it really good defensively

flower veil lilligant says fuck you to twave meaning its kinda hard to stop

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Still, Analytic works best on slow bulky Pokémon, which Floatzel definitely isn't. I forgot Cacturne didn't get Taunt, that was my bad. I don't think NP Haunter would be broken, as Mismagius gets Nasty Plot and that's fine. Haunter is more powerful and has STAB Sludge Bomb, but it's also slower and frailer.

 

[quziel]

Giving Floatzel analytic means that you really will have trouble switching into it, for example, hitting pivot lanturn for 37.6 - 44.6% with hp grass on a switch, or just being able to throw out very strong hydro pumps when you force a switch, which is something that floatzel excels at. Basically, this takes a pokemon whose only problem is its lacking power, and gives it an ability to gain more power on something it will do extremely often, which is force switches. Frankly, this would put Floatzel to A+ ranking, if not higher. Also, Floatzel + spikes would be absurd, as it already synergizes with them, and it would just be able to put out silly damage on a switch.

Knock off is very cool for Cacturne, but the cooler part of this theorymon is leaf storm, which it can use to basically take out most of the tier. Like, invested leaf storm is able to hit pursuit trapper skunk for 49.5 - 58.5%, which means that with proper prediction, skunk gets one switchin, and then its no longer able to even come close to checking cact. Sure it would still have switchins, but the sheer ease at which it could throw out a leaf storm would make it incredibly useful. Even if your opponent is trying to play the switching game, it could just do its usual thing, and set up spikes.

Nasty plot makes Haunter able to break the entire tier, and make it an incredibly good stallbreaker, which could take on most bulky teams by itself, provided it gets to set up NP. Just running a One vs. All calc shows that out of all the standard sets, there is not a single mon in the tier that is able to avoid the 2hko, so Haunter would have a guaranteed place on most offense, and especially volt-turn teams for its ability to just break through most defensive mons, even if it still would struggle against pretty much any mon faster than it.

Altaria suddenly has another reason to use it, and suddenly becomes amazing for any team that needs a fire check and hazard control, which is a large portion of the tier. Of course, it still has major issues with its offense, or lack thereof, but it gains a large amount of utility with this change. Mortar probably runs hp ice with this change.

Flower veil Lilligant is a pretty cool buff to an already strong mon, which you can't wear down anymore with status moves, meaning that it excels against a fair few mons that could otherwise cripple it with twave, such as xatu or miltank. That said, the change doesn't really alter how its plays, though it does a lot better against stallish teams.

and now for a suggestion of my own:

Sheer Force Muk

While this buff doesn't make muk suddenly amazing, nor does it fix its recovery problems, it does help it break through most of the mons that could previously wall it, while being able to make use of its rather nice special movepool, while at the same time boosting up its extremely powerful gunk shot, which, with sheer force and life orb, would be able to have a 75% chance to OHKO pdef Maudino before rocks. With fire blast, it could hit lix for 63.6 - 75.2%, making it suddenly not a switchin afterwards. Though, it still has a large number of easy switchins, such as weezing, piloswine, rhydon unless you're carrying giga, and garbodor. Either way, this buff should make it very usable for a fair number of teams, and would give it a fairly secure niche.

 

[poh]

+ Analytic

Analytic in combination with Floatzels ability to forces switches would make Floatzel an even bigger threat than it already is. Analytic Life Orb boosted Hydro Pump 2HKOs the whole tier after rocks are up bar mons like Ferro, Ludicolo and mons who are immune to Water (see calcs for some other mons). Its new ability wouldn't change anything about the sets it runs. With Analytic i see Floatzel officially becoming NU by usage and a rise to A+

analytic floatzel calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 165-195 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Vileplume: 123-146 (34.8 - 41.3%) -- 71.5% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 130-153 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 60 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 133-157 (35.6 - 42%) -- 90% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+ Knock Off & Leaf Storm

My first thought when i saw this was "still slower than shiftry so eh" but with Leaf Storm and Knock Off i see Cacturne become a serious threat. I was thinking about running a Choiced set - I think all Choiced items can be considerated - with Switcheroo. Cacturne would have one of the strongest Leaf Storms and Knock Offs in the game, so that's definitely something to keep in mind.
From B to atleast A-

+ Nasty Plot

With strong dual stabs and Nasty Plot to double your special attack stat, this thing becomes a monster. The extra typing makes the difference between Haunter and Mismagius. Would still be frail but i don't think something can survive after +2. Actually setting up with it is a different story though. I'd say from B+ to A-

+ Defog

Don't really like this one tbh. Mantine covers pretty much the same resistances and has less weaknesses. So I guess Heal Bell would distinguish it from Mantine? I don't think it would rise in ranking.

+ Flower Veil

This one is creative and pretty nice. People often use T-wave to cripple this threat so Lilligant doesn't have to worry about that anymore and would have more chances to set up. Rise to A+

 

[Take Azelfie]

Analytic is really nice, basically it turns into one of the best revenge killers because nothing wants to switch into it unless you quad resist or something, Mantine is scared of HP Electric. This thing would be pretty stupid to deal with.

Cacturne is a slower Shiftry with a water immunity and Spikes.gives you better chance at coming versus Kabu and other Aqua Jetters and pressuring them with Sucker Punch, shame it doesn't out speed much but it doesn't take as much as Shiftrry which is pretty. You can also score a free spike on like Gastrodon and Rhydon switching out. People are really undervaluing these buffs.

NP is a nice set on itself, NP Mismag that trades speed in order to better fare against MegaDino and some Grass-types. Sub + NP seems like the best option since you dodge Sucker Punches. Great Core Breaker and now Stall breaker.

Faces a fair amount of comp from Mantine and Pelipper. Trades 4x electric weakness for a fairy, ice weakness and a Grass resist. Not really anything major to give it the edge over other defoggers.

Clearly stolen idea from my thread :/ It can't be stopped by Liepard's TWave, can't be put on a Toxic timer, can't be burned to let hexers break through. Truly amazing Mon on fears almost nothing when setting up on passive mons. Get rid of the poison-types and this thing is pretty set to steamroll