Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

[Sun King]

Gotta say I'm loving this discussion. Keep it up y'all!

EDIT: After noticing trends in activity in this thread, I am now going to be taking into consideration the degree of creativeness in the submissions department. People respond best to the most creative submissions, and I'd like to see as much discussion as possible. Good examples would be, regarding this slate, Contrary Pangoro and Volt Switch Reuniclus. I would say, generally, please stay away from Prankster and Regenerator because we see a lot of those. However, if the addition of those abilities--or the addition of something WITH those abilities--allows us to create something unique and special in the metagame, I will consider that.

Looking forward to your submissions!

Sun King

 

[Salemance]

Well still debating like crazy over what I actually like or want to win.

Ya got sensible buff (Pidgeot), odd one that may not due too much (Arc sadly), intriguing ones (Contrary Pangoro) and left field one that is better than it was thought rigionally (Rein) and it just makes it hard to pick the truly best one..

 

[Sun King]

*Whew!* Study break. Nice.

I think, as has been the norm, we have two pretty clear contenders for this slate: Reuniclus and Pangoro. That should be a pretty interesting voting matchup. One one hand, we've got a really fun and cool ability that promotes creative play (Contrary); on the other, we've got an ability known to add significant levels of longevity to a team (Regenerator).

Here's my prediction for the slate: We're gonna have a close vote count, but I believe Reuniclus will come out on top, and here's why; it has been proven a game-changer by some very respected voices in the community. I think that come voting time, the bandwagon effect may come into play enough to sway the voting. HOWEVER, I did say it was gonna be close, and that's precisely because there is a significant population in this thread that is simply SICK OF REGENERATOR. It does seem that we get a lot of it, and I have seen people vote against excellent submissions purely because they dislike Regenerator (or Prankster).

Predicted final tally: Reuniclus wins by about 3 or 4 votes.

WELP--you heard it here folks. If Reunclus wins by 3 or 4 votes, I'll accept payment in the form of jelly beans.

Anyone else wanna join my friendly little wager?

 

[heritage]

*Whew!* Study break. Nice.

I think, as has been the norm, we have two pretty clear contenders for this slate: Reuniclus and Pangoro. That should be a pretty interesting voting matchup. One one hand, we've got a really fun and cool ability that promotes creative play (Contrary); on the other, we've got an ability known to add significant levels of longevity to a team (Regenerator).

Here's my prediction for the slate: We're gonna have a close vote count, but I believe Reuniclus will come out on top, and here's why; it has been proven a game-changer by some very respected voices in the community. I think that come voting time, the bandwagon effect may come into play enough to sway the voting. HOWEVER, I did say it was gonna be close, and that's precisely because there is a significant population in this thread that is simply SICK OF REGENERATOR. It does seem that we get a lot of it, and I have seen people vote against excellent submissions purely because they dislike Regenerator (or Prankster).

Predicted final tally: Reuniclus wins by about 3 or 4 votes.

WELP--you heard it here folks. If Reunclus wins by 3 or 4 votes, I'll accept payment in the form of jelly beans.

Anyone else wanna join my friendly little wager?

B-b-but Pidgeot. Pidgeot REALLY needs the coverage to be anywhere near as good as it wants to be. Although Reuniclus is cool, Pidgeot deserves the win way more. Reun also looses its awesome niche of being a Magic Guard Calm Minder. You stated it yourself, Regenerator is annoying and a lot of people are sick of things like that.
My vote's going for Pidgeot, just since I know if needs absolutely nothing more to be amazing in the OU metagame.
I'll bet with you, fren. 5 jelly beans if Pidgeot wins.

 

[Sun King]

B-b-but Pidgeot. Pidgeot REALLY needs the coverage to be anywhere near as good as it wants to be. Although Reuniclus is cool, Pidgeot deserves the win way more. Reun also looses its awesome niche of being a Magic Guard Calm Minder. You stated it yourself, Regenerator is annoying and a lot of people are sick of things like that.
My vote's going for Pidgeot, just since I know if needs absolutely nothing more to be amazing in the OU metagame.
I'll bet with you, fren. 5 jelly beans if Pidgeot wins.

As people have said, Pidgeot is boring. We know what would happen if it was in OU, and little is left to the imagination. I think it will get a few votes, but will be left behind.

I'll see your 5 jelly beans and raise you to 15 if Reuniclus wins by 4.

 

[Salemance]

Idk I'm sorta tired of arguing bout this stuff so ill just be sure, yah, whatever.

 

[GlaciesGlaceman]

B-b-but Pidgeot. Pidgeot REALLY needs the coverage to be anywhere near as good as it wants to be. Although Reuniclus is cool, Pidgeot deserves the win way more. Reun also looses its awesome niche of being a Magic Guard Calm Minder. You stated it yourself, Regenerator is annoying and a lot of people are sick of things like that.
My vote's going for Pidgeot, just since I know if needs absolutely nothing more to be amazing in the OU metagame.
I'll bet with you, fren. 5 jelly beans if Pidgeot wins.

Reuniclus's niche as a Magic Guard Calm Minder is already taken by Clefable, who generally does it better thanks to it's better typing and coverage, and unpredictability. Reuniclus gaining Volt Switch is a huge boon to it, giving it a level of unpredictability, as either a setup sweeper or a bulky pivot. Along with that, it can actually get around it's greatest enemy, Knock Off users and Pursuit users, thanks to it's slow Volt Switch. Also, Pidgeot contributes to Birdspam, and that is much more degenerate then Regenerator.

 

[silver97]

Someone should explain me Why the fuck i always stop receiving alerts when voting stage comes. I would have voted empoleon anyway, so yea.
New slate: Pangoro is cool but it's quite difficult to setup with that speed and no recovery, so i don't know if it will actually be able to do its job effectively. Arcanine gets another option with dragon dance but it is still decent at everything and good at nothing, it is a mixture of other ddancers of the tier, but can't do the job the same way they do. Focus blast is what pidgeot needs to become viable and threatening in ou, however it still has its flaws like that disappointing speed tier, still a great option tho. Reuniclus is my favourite, i usually hate bulky regen aids things but at the same time i love momentum grabbing moves and slow voltturn, and this buff brings a lot of benefits to reuniclus' favourite playstyle, bulky offense. It still has its drawbacks of course like the shitty offensive and defensive typing, but i think i'm gonna vote this

 

[Sebberball]

How about Imposter Zororark?
It already has illusion, but Imposter would be nice, it would be a powered up ditto.
Tinted Lens Volcarona.
It's a bug... Every bug has tinted lens... And it would make Volcarona useful against rock types that wall it
Solid Rock Torterra
It deserves Solid rock, since it serves as Rhyperior's understudy

 

[Salemance]

....sorry bud but all suggestions must be sent to a council member (me, Mysteria, unfixable, Sun King, Vertex, Valmanway) either through a PM or Visitor message to avoid clogging up the thread. Thanks for understanding bud.

 

[silver97]

How about Imposter Zororark?
It already has illusion, but Imposter would be nice, it would be a powered up ditto.
Tinted Lens Volcarona.
It's a bug... Every bug has tinted lens... And it would make Volcarona useful against rock types that wall it
Solid Rock Torterra
It deserves Solid rock, since it serves as Rhyperior's understudy

Yeah powered up ditto... 60 instead of 48 base hp really makes the difference...
Solid rock torterra would be a nice buff but definitely not enough to make it viable in OU, it's just underwhelming with that speed and shitty typing.
Tinted Lens volcarona is nice and all, but volca's problem is not breaking through opponent's defenses, it struggles in a meta full of hazards, birdspam, Faster threats that hit it stupidly hard.

 

[Sun King]

Yeah powered up ditto... 60 instead of 48 base hp really makes the difference...
Solid rock torterra would be a nice buff but definitely not enough to make it viable in OU, it's just underwhelming with that speed and shitty typing.
Tinted Lens volcarona is nice and all, but volca's problem is not breaking through opponent's defenses, it struggles in a meta full of hazards, birdspam, Faster threats that hit it stupidly hard.

Guys, please do not respond to people posting submissions here. As Salemance said, I want to keep this thread as clutter free as possible.

Thank you!

 

[silver97]

Guys, please do not respond to people posting submissions here. As Salemance said, I want to keep this thread as clutter free as possible.

Thank you!

Yeah sorry, didn't want to start a discussion on it, just answer to him. Sorry again
Edit: omg 500th

 

[bb skarm]

I've been playing with normal Mega Pidgeot lately, and I can easily state that Focus Blast is literally all it needs. It already hits hard enough, and Focus Blast beats all its checks and counters with ease. Focus Blast would basically give it 'BW Hydreigon' syndrome, in that defensively, it would have pretty much no counters apart from Chansey, yet it would still have counters offensively. As a matter of fact, I'll go as far as saying you can drop Heat Wave as Flying + Fighting coverage is ridiculous (see: pinsir). I usually opt for Work Up over U-turn as +1 pidgeot is literally the devil. So, +1 Focus Blast and Hurricane is, well, ridiculously good. You'll basically be OHKOing/2HKOing everything that isn't Electric/Flying (and I'll argue that Zapdos would be much more viable if Mega Pidgeot got Focus Blast). Beating the 110 Speed tier + anything that isn't a thundurus/zapdos is good enough for me to vote for it.

 

[Sun King]

Yeah sorry, didn't want to start a discussion on it, just answer to him. Sorry again
Edit: omg 500th

Don't worry about answering him; we, the council, are fully capable of doing that.

Anyways to get this discussion back on track, I'll respond to Mysteria's above post about Mega Pidgeot. It's very true that it can OHKO or 2HKO the tier, but at the same time, it's very prone to revenge killing. First and foremost, it is easily worn down by SR, so if you net a kill and switch out, you're gonna put yourself into KO range for a lot of the attacks that are faster than you. Secondly, I think we need to address the opportunity cost of running Mega Pidgeot. You miss out on a lot just by choosing Pidgeot as your mega. I'm actually gonna go ahead and say that is predominantly why I'm not voting for it. That and other things on this slate are significantly more appealing to me.

 

[silver97]

I've been playing with normal Mega Pidgeot lately, and I can easily state that Focus Blast is literally all it needs. It already hits hard enough, and Focus Blast beats all its checks and counters with ease. Focus Blast would basically give it 'BW Hydreigon' syndrome, in that defensively, it would have pretty much no counters apart from Chansey, yet it would still have counters offensively. As a matter of fact, I'll go as far as saying you can drop Heat Wave as Flying + Fighting coverage is ridiculous (see: pinsir). I usually opt for Work Up over U-turn as +1 pidgeot is literally the devil. So, +1 Focus Blast and Hurricane is, well, ridiculously good. You'll basically be OHKOing/2HKOing everything that isn't Electric/Flying (and I'll argue that Zapdos would be much more viable if Mega Pidgeot got Focus Blast). Beating the 110 Speed tier + anything that isn't a thundurus/zapdos is good enough for me to vote for it.

Imo is really not worth it dropping U-turn for work up, work up is a bit lame as a boosting move because pidgeot doesn't get a lot of opportunities to set up and even then it can be handled fairly easy. On the other hand U-turn makes you earn momentum and makes it easier for teammates dealing with pidgeot's switch-ins.

 

[bb skarm]

Imo is really not worth it dropping U-turn for work up, work up is a bit lame as a boosting move because pidgeot doesn't get a lot of opportunities to set up and even then it can be handled fairly easy. On the other hand U-turn makes you earn momentum and makes it easier for teammates dealing with pidgeot's switch-ins.

Bear in mind that this is irrelevant to the thread; we're discussing Focus Blast on Mega Pidgeot, not what the best moveset is for Mega Pidgeot.

(although I have multiple arguments and replays that work up does put its work in)

edit: don't reply to this because i wouldn't like the thread to be cluttered with apologies

 

[Enigami]

Going to toss in my vote for Reuniclus + Volt Switch. I play RU often, and find Reuniclus particularly annoying as is, so I feel giving it a slow Volt Switch would definitely make an impact.

Nevermind.

 

[Dilasc]

So I mentioned Flash Fire DD Arcanine and I noted that while after both boosts, its damage potential is terrifying, the only move it has that doesn't outright kill it before the Life Orb are Crunch (which doesn't add any real coverage,) and ESpeed.

Again, I'm thinking the problem of being allowed to set up both getting the flash fire boost and the DD. I mean HP Fire is fairly common and all, but... well, I just don't know.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Without intimidate, I really don't see how arcanine can expect to set up a dd. His bulk is not enough to be taking a hit if you want to sweep.

In a total side note, mega arcanine with a fire type aerialate seems like the cutest thing gf could possibly do, how did that not happen?

Anyway, as much as I love arcanine, and as much potential as I think this theorymon has, I can't get past how the benefit of not taking a mega slot and e speed probably won't ever be enough to use this over charizard. The usefulness of that stat mix, the almost perfect STAB coverage, and the better speed tier without a boost just scream outclassed to me, so I don't think dd is what will pull ar canine out of mediocrity

Edit: oh my god auto correct! I said "coolest," not "cutest." That's so bad I'm not even going to fix it

 

[Sebberball]

Yeah powered up ditto... 60 instead of 48 base hp really makes the difference...
Solid rock torterra would be a nice buff but definitely not enough to make it viable in OU, it's just underwhelming with that speed and shitty typing.
Tinted Lens volcarona is nice and all, but volca's problem is not breaking through opponent's defenses, it struggles in a meta full of hazards, birdspam, Faster threats that hit it stupidly hard.

I was also thinking about prankster zoroark, et cetera, et cetera, I also regret the "powered up ditto" quote... Yeah I must be stupid... xD

 

[heritage]

Wait are we voting
Ok Mega Pidgeot + Focus Blast
Nvm sorry love you mysteria

 

[bb skarm]

We are not voting. I'm not sure where you guys got this idea from.

 

[Enigami]

Sorry, my bad. I got mixed up there, and I think other people saw my post and thought voting had started.

 

[hawk1113]

So I am still really torn about what to vote for when we get there. Like Sun King says, to me it's between Pangoro and Reuni.

Pangoro almost gets the win for me just because the hilarious interaction between Parting Shot and Magic Bounce on M-Sable. I thought the Hammer Arm set was worthless, but looking at it a 252 Jolly Speed Pangoro can outspeed some key 'mons at 354 speed at +1 (Keldeo, Latios, Terrakion, M-Tyranitar, Diggersby, M-Gyarados, Mamoswine, to name just a few) and snags some OHKOs with his dual STABs. Gunk Shot is a huge blessing and a great coverage move that lets him check certain fairys like M-Altaria and M-Gardevoir (if he's at +1) or Azumarill. At +2 he outspeeds Greninja and he has a good chance of beating Gren one-on-one unboosted even if Greninja ditches its Dark Type and/or runs Low Kick. He can use Expert Belt instead of LO thanks to the good coverage of his moves, and that will help stop him from getting worn down so badly.

He still has some problems though. Birdspam laughs at his speed boosts, he's badly outgunned against Lando-T even at +1 attack, and he lacks the power to break through some serious defensive pokes (namely Sylveon, M-Slowbro, Gliscor, Zapdos, Skarmory, M-Diancie, and Clefable). There's also some fast 'mons that can revenge kill him even at +2 (M-Sceptile, M-Aerodactyl). Of course, you could argue that it gives Pangoro some unpredictability since an Adamant bulky attacker Super Power sets kills many of those defensive walls at +1 and only needs 20 speed EVs to speed creep standard Clefable. He could also easily take a different coverage move (Ice Punch!) to crush some of his other would-be counters. Overall he's just really cool and I really, really love the options and unpredictability he introduces into the meta, even if his Parting Shot trickery and hopes of picking up +2 Evasion from Defog or +1 speed from Sticky Web are all mostly pipe-dreams.

Reuni - I did indeed dream this up as a way to help TR teams. It dawned on me that currently the only 'mons that learn both Trick Room and a momentum move are base 100 speed 'mons, and I wondered if having a "fast VoltTurn" under Trick Room would help the team preserve and gain momentum. I figured that the Life Orb Nuker with Magic Guard or Assault Vest pivot with Regenerator options would just be a nice bonus, but the posts so far have shown that this thing would actually be amazing at those jobs despite its crummy typing. I'm super pumped that one of my suggestions is gaining traction and I think this is the more competitive option...but it is a lot less fun than Pangoro. I think I'm leaning towards Panda for now, but we'll see if there's other thoughts before voting starts.