Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

[Celticpride]

Rock doesn't resist Bug. :/

I don't see anything good about this slate bar Tyranitar, and even then it's on a timer to sweep with the Sand Force boost. Sceptile gets Technician Dual Chop which is kinda lulzy, but it's coming off of its lesser Attack stat.

And Bullet Seed. Does a faster but slightly weaker Breloom with the functional equivalent of a sub-breaking Outrage scare you? Because it should. It also gets SD.

 

[JaxLikesSnacks]

Technican Mega Sceptile doesn't seem that appealing at first glance, specially speaking the only moves it could really use would be Dragon Breath and Hidden Power, the former is only slightly stronger than Dragon Pulse and the latter is mostly hitting 4x super effectively anyways. Dual Chop (and Pursuit?) are pretty nice but I don't know what SD sets would really have over the special ones. Hoping to see what others think about this one since I really don't get it.

Water Absorb Forry and Sand Force Tyranitar both seem really good on paper though. Although I don't think Forry really can do that much back to Azumarill/Keldeo, unless I'm forgetting something. And TTar is just objectively better... but sand running out is a problem too, and maybe there'd be a few scenarios where TTar wants sand after Mega? I don't really know.

I don't really know what to say about Tangrowth either, other than the obvious loss of ground resist and fighting neutrality in exchange for walling the mons astroboy posted above.

I'm sort of talking out of my ass since I don't play OU Theorymon but I wanted to give my 2 cents anyways

 

[Blumenwitz]

Well, as I pitched Water Absorb Forretress, I might as well defend it. Since I'm lazy, I'm just going to copy and paste what I PMed to Valmanway:

Let's face it; Water types will always be a dominant force in the OU metagame. A Water immunity would be invaluable to anyone, but I think it's especially useful to our friend Forretress here.

The best word to describe Forretress in OU is "outclassed". Ferrothorn outclasses it as a hazard setter, Scizor outclasses it as a hazard remover... you get the idea. But Storm Drain just might give ol' Forretress the edge over its competitors. Immunity to Scald spam is something that none of the other bulky support mons in OU have, and it allows Forretress to check/ counter a lot of the OU threats that can force out its Steel- type brethren. Can Scizor safely come in on Keldeo without worrying about getting burned? I don't frickin' think so.
And that's just one example. Mega Slowbro can't do shit to it. Neither can AV Azumarill. Neither can Manaphy, unless it's packing HP Fire. Starmie struggles to muscle past it. And Suicune? Fuhgeddaboutit.

Thoughts?

 

[pika pal]

The big problem I have with Water Absorb Forretress is that it lets him wall a lot of potent attackers... and then what? If the target has ways around Toxic (Natural Cure Starmie, Sub users like Gyara or Resttalk users) Forretress just can't do much of value to threaten them out. So once he lays hazards, spins or whatever support he's providing, he needs the opponent to switch out rather than try to muscle past him which things like Azumarill could manage eventually if Forretress took a Knock Off and lost his Leftovers.

 

[TheBraveGallade]

Technitian mega sceptile seems like... a legit PHISICAL option but the only thing it does to special is the para chance of dragonbreath and a flamethrower/earty power.

Fortress now really gets something to do: being the ultimate phisical wall. Fotress always had problems with powerful waters. Now it can just come in and either set up rocks, spin, OR volt swich out.
BTW isnt it wierd that fortress does NOT get U turn?

 

[GnralLao]

Congrats to Floatzel for being the latest newcomer in OU (and to Mysteria's 1000th post Ü)! Now, my thoughts on Technician M-Sceptile:


I just checked Sceptile's movepool and these are probably the only moves that it can put to good use with Technician:

- Dragon Breath (nice 30% chance of paralysis and a tad stronger than Dragon Pulse)
- Hidden Power (pseudo-STAB on a coverage move is pretty cool)
- Magical Leaf (Leaf Storm is still way stronger, but it doesn't miss nor drop the SpA)

There are also a lot of 60 BP (or less) physical moves it can use if you want to go fully physical with SD and stuff, but I don't know if it's an option worth considering. Another thing about its ability: since it won't have Lightning Rod anymore, it'll be completely ruined by Thunder Wave, especially from Thundurus and Klefki because of Prankster giving priority to status moves, and it won't have a way to boost its SpA. Yeah sure Technician gives more immediate power to some of its moves, but the absence of Thunder Wave immunity and SpA boosting are big losses indeed.

Just for fun, here are some physical moves that get boosted by Technician:

- Acrobatics (does it make twice as strong since it's not really holding an item?)
- Aerial Ace
- Bulldoze
- Bullet Seed
- Double Kick
- Dual Chop
- Fury Cutter
- Power-Up Punch
- Pursuit
- Quick Attack
- Rock Smash
- Rock Tomb


Quick thoughts about the other mons:

Tangrowth +Grass/Rock typing: STAB Ancient power/Rock Slide/Rock Tomb sounds really cool, but I'm sure if it's a better typing defensively speaking (one less weakness, becomes neutral to Fire-, Flying-, Poison-, Grass-, Ground- and Water-type moves, and gains a resistance to Normal-type moves) and if it would help or hinder it as a tank/physical wall.

Forretress + Water Absorb: So many Water-types won't be able to touch that thing (unless they carry Hidden Power Fire like Starmie for example) and it gives it another mean of recovery aside from Leftovers. Nice niche mon overall.

M-Tyranitar + Sand Force: That thing is going to be so dangerous!!! It looks a lot like M-Sharpedo, having one chance to grab one or multiple boosts before MegaEvolving (in T-Tar's case though, it can do it on its first turn) and wreaking havoc. The main differences between them would be that T-Tar has much less speed and much more bulk than M-Sharpedo. Also, if T-Tar has another sand setter as a teammate, it can fulfill its role multiple times during a single match. Very terrifying!

I got a question though: I thought only mons that are C+ or lower in the OU VR thread could be nominated. Seeing that 3 of them are at least B-, I stand somewhat confused before this situation. Did I miss something? Was there a change in the rules somewhere I didn't see? Not that I disagree with the nominations (it's quite the opposite actually as I really like this slate), but I just want to be sure about that. Ü

 

[Tressed]

So uh...

+1 252 Atk Sand Force Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory in Sand: 283-334 (84.7 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Sand Force Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon in Sand: 176-208 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Sand Force Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor in Sand: 271-319 (76.5 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sand Force Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T in Sand: 196-232 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Yeah, that's not scary at all. DD Mega Tar is already something a lot of people are sleeping on in favor of new stuff, imo, and this sort of burst damage is absolutely insane. Karx mentioned that this puts Mega Tar on a timer, which is true, but I don't think it's quite as much of a problem. You play this like any other win condition, wait until your checks and counters are sufficiently weakened, then bust other the team open. In Tar's case, you still get to take advantage of the spdef boost sand brings while setting up, and while the above mons wall you outside of sand, they still have to stall you out of sand first, which means you have turns to boost further as they spam Protect, or alternatively, punch holes in the other team as your opponent tries to sack as few Pokemon as possible. Also, good luck switching into this monster if you aren't playing a very, very bulky team.


Mega Sceptile seems pretty cool too, it gets boosted Hidden Power, Dragonbreath, Dual Chop, and Bullet Seed, which have already been mentioned, but it also gets Rock Tomb and Double Kick, which have their uses (DK's pretty much your only option to get through Ferro, the residual damage sucks but it actually 2HKOes at +2 so there's that).


No opinion on other stuff, Forry is still passive af and I'm not certain I like the changes to Tangrowth.

 

[DylanTubularK]

Water Absorb Forretress seems interesting. Allows it to take on a variety of Water types in the tier, Specs Keldeo 3HKOs any leftovers variant with Secret Sword, meaning you're given a free switch in to Forry, then are allowed to Volt Switch out to a Pokemon that beats Keldeo, or to a Ghost type that Secret Sword will not touch. Still assuming a specially defensive set, Banded Azumarill does around 45% on average with Knock Off on the first hit, then hits for around 29% on average after, meaning that Forry can very easily set up a Hazard before Volt Switching out. All in all an interesting Hazard Setter that can act as a check and scout to the multitude of strong Water Pokemon in the tier.

Hide

+1 252 Atk Sand Force Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro in Sand: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage.
252 Atk Sand Force Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T in Sand: 196-232 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Sand Force Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn in Sand: 150-177 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Sand Force Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor in Sand: 258-304 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Sand Force Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye in Sand: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
+1 252 Atk Sand Force Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W in Sand: 268-316 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Sand Force Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross in Sand: 133-157 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO

Consider these a bit cherry picked, but after a Dragon Dance, hardly anything at all in the tier wants to switch in on this monster. Granted, nothing want's to switch in on a Mega Ttar after a dragon dance anyways, but you barely have to soften the other team to sweep with this monster.

Grass/Rock Tangrowth seems okay. You can run a mixed AV set with Giga Drain, Ancient Power / Rock Slide, Knock Off, and whatever last move you want, really.
0 Atk Tangrowth Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 400-472 (134.6 - 158.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Sun: 226-267 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 220-260 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Rock Slide vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 432-508 (132.1 - 155.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It definitely works. And it has Regenerator, allowing it to switch in multiple times on Talonflame, however, the same cannot be said about Zard Y unless you predict a Solar Beam, as any other move will 2HKO.

Mega Sceptile is fairly good with it's new ability of Technician, being able to run a variety of Hidden Powers to avoid being walled by certain Pokemon. Magical Leaf is never worth using over Energy Ball or Giga Drain due to Giga Drain (obviously) draining health and Energy Ball's 10% chance to drop SpD and Magical Leaf's no accuracy check is useless anywhere but Ubers and even then Evasion doesn't have much place in Ubers. Dragon Breath is obviously objectively better than Dragon Pulse in every situation because of the 30% chance to Paralyze and 5 more BP before STAB, even if it doesn't do much else, the chance to paralyze is always nice, and as we have learned from Scald, 30% basically means 90%. It can run Hidden Power Fire if it doesn't want to be walled by Scizor and Ferrothorn, Hidden Power Ground if it doesn't want to be walled by Heatran, Hidden Power Ice to beat Gliscor, and you can't forget that Hidden Power Fighting allows Sceptile to use a Fighting type coverage move that has 30 less BP than Focus Blast, which is a big deal, but allows it to still hit Ferrothorn, Heatran, Bisharp, and Tyranitar for heavy damage.

All of these Pokemon definitely have some worth in the OU metagame, and this vote will be a lot harder for me than the last one was.

 

[Valmanway]

Sand Force Mega Tyranitar: We've had this suggested multiple times, but it never really saw the light of day for a reason I'll not speak of. However, it seems that the planets aligned just right this time around and allowed this Theorymon to get slated. I wasn't really liking the idea at first for several reasons. First, Mega Tyranitar would only have up to 4 turns to sweep with a Sand Force boost after setting up a Dragon Dance, and that's only either when using it as a lead or after a teammate kicks the bucket. After the sand wears off, Mega Tyranitar is left with no real ability if not running a Hippowdon; at least after sand wears off, Mega Tyranitar could whip up more sand upon switching if it still had Sand Stream. Which leads me to my next point, that being the fact that the sand can provide Mega Tyranitar with extra special bulk to take a hit, whether it's switching into an attack or taking an attack as it sets up. But as time passed, these cons seemed less and less significant to me, and the real pros were starting to shine, like being able to use Rock Polish to outrun opposing Dragon Dancers, or having an absurdly powerful STAB attack to muscle past walls if using Dragon Dance. Just take a look at this:

+1 252 Atk Sand Force Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia in Sand: 240-283 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Yeah, so unless your wall resists Rock, you likely have nothing to safely switch into this monster. Having a powered up Earthquake is also neat for sweeping, as most Pokemon that could have resisted Stone Edge will take severe damage from Earthquake if your predicting skills are good enough. And while the sand Tyranitar itself summons doesn't last long, the potential carnage it creates in those few turns can be devastating if left unchecked. Overall, while I was certainly skeptical at first, I've actually warmed up to this idea, and wouldn't mind it if this won.

Water Absorb Forretress: This one might seem a bit odd at first, but I think there's some merit to this Theorymon. Ever needed a safe switch-in to Scald? Forretress is now able to easily jump in on Scald, a trait that very few Pokemon without Natural Cure or Heal Bell/Aromatherapy can boast to have, and even heals 25% of its health when taking Water-type moves. With Water Absorb, Forretress also finds some good switch-in opportunities against a lot of Pokemon, like Keldeo, Azumarill, Manaphy, Starmie, Gyarados, Kabutops, Kingdra, Suicune, and Tentacruel, and can then safely Volt Switch to either punish a switch or to bring in the appropriate answer to the threat at hand. For example, Thundurus can take out Manaphy fairly easily but doesn't enjoy getting hit with Ice Beam, so switch Forretress in and take the Ice Beam with no problem (no hax, plz), and simply use Volt Switch. It's a win-win scenario here, since if the Manaphy switches out, you can bring in an appropriate check/counter for the new threat, but them not switching means you can safely switch Thundurus in and KO the Manaphy after the Volt Switch damage. Plus, Forretress is plenty slow enough to abuse Volt Switch to provide safe switches except when against Slowbro, so this strategy is great when facing Water-types, especially rain teams. This also eats away the time that rain is up, so Forretress is a great time waster against rain teams. Not a great Theorymon on paper, but I definitely think that this is worth the team slot if you hate Water.

Technician Mega Sceptile: I'm really liking this Theorymon. Like, I REALLY like this one. There aren't that many new special attacks to take advantage of, but Dragon Breath is a nice new STAB that could be annoying with its paralysis, and having Hidden Power acting as either Flamethrower or Earth Power is a luxury on its own. However, the real variety comes from its physical movepool, with great new STAB attacks in Dual Chop, acting as an Outrage that doesn't lock or confuse and can break through Sturdy/Focus Sash and can still deal damage to a Substitute, and Bullet Seed, which breaks what Dual Chop does, but can potentially have more than 50% more power. Improved coverage moves include Rock Tomb, Aerial Ace, Bulldoze, and a more consistently powerful Low Kick, so combine this with Swords Dance, and a physically offensive Mega Sceptile doesn't sound too absurd. Losing out on Volt Switch and Prankster Thunder Wave immunities does stink, but I feel that the new power that Mega Sceptile receives greatly outweighs this. A simple buff with a few new positives, but that's part of why I like this one.

Grass / Rock Tangrowth: I'm a bit skeptical of adding a Rock typing with the intention to buff a Pokemon defensively, but I think Tangrowth is the right candidate for the new typing. With a new Rock typing, Tangrowth loses its Water, Grass, and Ground resistances and gains weaknesses to Steel- and Fighting-type moves, so things like Keldeo, Landorus, Mega Metagross, Azumarill, Mega Scizor, and Excadrill now have an easier time against Tangrowth, so I was a bit unconvinced at first sight. But when I realized that Tangrowth could act as a neat defensive pivot of sorts for sand teams, I started to like it. Gaining all of those weaknesses is unfortunate, but shedding its weaknesses to Fire-, Flying-, and Poison-type moves is very nice, and combined with the extra Special Defense gained by the sand, the Assault Vest set is a pretty reliable answer to things like Latios, Talonflame, Mega Manectric, Raikou, and Dragalge, and having a special wall in general is a useful thing for sand teams. But as I've said, the drawbacks that the new Rock typing bring are a bit rough, as the new weaknesses get in the way of it being a good switch-in to most things with Focus Blast. Other than that, I kinda like this idea.

 

[Sun King]

It's really weird posting from the outside again, but I actually really wanted to voice my thoughts on two of these.

Grass/Rock Tangrowth: Ahhhh I love this typing. Tangrowth already has pretty nice stats and a fantastic ability, I love the thought of giving it fantastic typing. These two types go super nicely; Rock mitigates Grass's Fire and Flying weaknesses, and Grass mitigates Rock's Water and Ground weaknesses. This is definitely a big step up for Tangrowth, but I do question its ability to make a big impact on OU.

Water Absorb Forretress: I KNOW that this one will be under the radar for most of you, but that doesn't mean I think it's any worse. This is SUCH a huge asset for Forretress because it not only provides it with a momentum stealing immunity to Water, but it provides a source of healing. Forretress has always been held back by having a timer on its health bar, but not anymore. Switching into a Water move eliminates two turns of SR (or SR + Spikes, or full Spikes and no SR…take your pick). Additionally, this immunity and source of health allow Forretress to do what has ALWAYS been my favorite thing of Forry's: get something in safely with a slow Volt Switch. You could also go SR or Spikes or Rapid Spin, but I think the best play in a lot of cases will be to outmaneuver your opponent via the slow Volt Switch. Forretress's biggest critics have always said that it tanks momentum. Well--not anymore. This immunity makes things like CB Azumarill huge liabilities unless Forry's down. I expect Water Absorb Forretress to make the biggest impact on OU of this slate. Definitely getting my vote if I get around to voting.

 

[Isa Simple]

Sand Force Mega Tyranitar:
This has already been touched on a fair bit man would this be an epic cleaner! Dragon Dance Tyranitar already had little things that could take it but now it can just carve through even relatively bulky teams with very little prior damage. HO could just about lead with this, and if it can set up 1 DD against the opposing lead, that's 4 turns of the opposing team getting absolutely hammered for an easy clean from TTar's teammates. Undeniable power on that Stone Edge.
One thing which I do also feel is worth toughing on is its ability to now run Rock Polish and still have enough power without being at +1. Rock Polish Tyranitar would be great vs offensive teams, being able to out speed everything unboosted including scarf users all the way up to Latios. This makes RP Tyranitar a terrific cleaner vs offense as things such as Scarf Lando-T can no longer revenge kill it or stop its sweep with superpower, and is OHKOed by Ice Punch after rocks even at -1.

Water Absorb Forretress:
This one is iffy to me. It really is a great check to most water types, and can sponge hits from every common rain sweeper not named kabutops. But it is just far too passive. All it can do is stack hazards while it gets slowly worn down. I guess switching into scalds and what not helps with sustainability but if the opponent has a consistent and reliable hazard remover like Latias, its effectively just wasting turns. Most water types will eventually beat it 1v1, Sub CM Keldeo shits over Forry. I just feel like there are better water type checks out there with a bit more of a presence and that will actually beat said water types, rather than just hold them up and act as an annoyance. It would definitely need team support in the form of Defiance and a spin blocker as without these things its just meh.

Technician Mega Sceptile:
I used to love SD Sceptile in RU. Technician boosted Bullet Seed and Dual Chop as STABs are pretty darn cool. Both can get past substitutes and sashes or sturdy and what not, as well as potentially boasting immense base power. With Swords Dance backing these up Sceptile is actually a really strong physical sweeper. Grass / Dragon actually gets decent coverage outside of steel types, being able to hit a lot of common physical walls like Hippowdon and Rotom-W super effectively, and most others neutrally. It also does has options to get around steels. Double Kick is nice but honestly I think your best bet is Technician boosted HP Fire, or another HP for coverage. HP Ice is another option as it lets you fly by Gliscor and Landorus-T more easily, but more importantly, you can nail Mega Altaria on the switch which will other wise destroy you. Also note that having a HP could help bluff a special set initially, creating mind games which may later lead to a free SD as they switch.
All that said though it will likely be rather difficult to get Swords Dances off due to that extremely lacking bulk. Also Lightning Rod is slightly missed without that immunity to Thunder Wave, but you still 4x resist electric hits. Lastly I shouldn't disregard the special sets, they are far better now with Dragon Breath and HP, I'm just so hyped for the physical sets.
Also some calcs:

calcs

+1 252 Atk Technician Mega Sceptile Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 204-242 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Technician Mega Sceptile Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 252-296 (71.1 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252 Atk Technician Mega Sceptile Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 456-540 (108.5 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Technician Mega Sceptile Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 456-546 (150.4 - 180.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Technician Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 172-204 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Technician Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 238-282 (71.2 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Technician Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 272-324 (77.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Technician Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 360-424 (104.9 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Grass / Rock Tangrowth:
No. Please no. There is a reason no one uses Cradily. Grass / Rock typing just isn't good. Tangrowth is good because of those invaluable Ground and Water resists that make grass types viable. Now your only resists are Normal and Electric. Like I get that a grass type that isn't weak to Flying and Fire may seem appealing but it just isn't worth it. Tangrowth still can't switch in to Talon Flame or Mega Zard Y, it can only revenge kill them. Also however rock STAB is useful, some of the stuff people are saying it is good against (Talon and Zard-Y) had a decent chance to be killed by Rock Slide without STAB any way.
However. As you probably figured I really don't like this submission, however I will agree to it being a good idea if used with Sand Storm support. Without Sand Storm support I believe that standard Tangrowth is better, but in Sand Storm with Assault Vest + the Sand Storm SpD boost this thing would become a pretty epic special wall.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Sand: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Sand: 164-195 (40.5 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Sand: 150-178 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Taking 120BP Super effective hits from Gengar and Mega Gardevoir is no easy feat.
Hover without Sand Storm up that Fighting weakness hurts. One of my favorites things about Tangrowth before was beating Keldeo, but now it is OHKOed by Specs Secret Sword after rocks. Basically to me Grass / Rock Tangrowth is a direct downgrade as the lost weaknesses and gained STAB don't even come close to being worth the gained weaknesses and lost resistances. The only justifiable use of Grass / Rock Tangrowth imo is on sand teams.

This slate is down to the Megas for me.

 

[Lord Abbadon]

Yay Belly Drum Floatzel won

Badum Tss!!

Drums>Belly Drums.. Geddit? No? Okay..

anyway, on to the new slates

Sand Force Mega Tyranitar: As ugly as Godzilla wearing scarfs and appendages is, Sand force Mega Tyranitar sounds pretty cool. I've always been a fan of pokes that can get use out off their pre-mega abilities, and this one takes it up a notch. He summons his own sand in non mega form and wrecks stuff as mega. The thing is bulk and power was never Mega Tyranitar's issue; speed and shitty defensive typing was. Giving him sand force is trying to overcompensate that via power alone(Calcs had already been shown, OHKOing Skarmory with neutral physical attack is scary af). If he had gotten sand rush, it would have been a different story all together. There's a reason sand force users were never really prominent in sand teams bar BW Lando-I. Still a cool way to buff Mega Tar.

Water Absorb Foretress: Okay then, our bag of worms is sucking up water now. Better than flash fire imo. This is an interesting defensive buff. Of the top of my head, the new things water absorb Forry walls now are:
Keldeo(Neat-o)
Azumarill
Manaphy(Nice)
Slowbro(Non Fire Blast)
Tentacruel
Kingdra to some extent
More Keldeo/Manaphy/Azumarill checks are always nice. Against tentacruel both will be staring at each other like a derp until Forry volt switches out. If Tenta drops some t-spikes on that turn; Forry's gotta come back again. Spinner that beats Keldeo thing is done better by Starmie imo. Just like before he does absolutely nothing to the stuff he walls, while the aforementioned pokes can either wear him down or setup for free. Also who is to say Forry wont miss his sturdy? He could setup a last ditch rocks/spin at full health in front of special attackers. That wont be possible now. Ultimately same issue as before; giving water absorb to Forry is not solving his issues any time soon; but not a bad buff nonetheless.

Technician Mega Sceptile: This one strikes me as the kind of slate that might have more to it than meets the eye; or it might be even worse than it seems. Stronger hidden power is always nice. 90 BP Hidden power was bound to get some ohkos/2hkos that 60 bp doesn't.

Calcs:

Hide

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Ground(60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 208-248 (54 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Ground(90 BP) vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 312-368 (81 - 95.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Fire(60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 244-288 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Fire(90 BP) vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 360-428 (104.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sceptile already possesses Leaf storm, so techi special grass stab is redundant. Dragon pulse would be replaced by Dragon breath, which is slightly more powerful and comes with a paralysis chance. On the physical side, Sceptile gets back a viable flying coverage from past gen in Aerial Ace and a stronger rock tomb. He also gets a more reliable low kick. Oh and he can use bullet seed now, which is probably more powerful than seed bomb in average. All in all, Sceptile won't be changing that much. He just got a little more efficient in what he already does.


Grass/Rock Tangrowth: To me, grass/rock is the kind of typing where u need to rely on you sheer bulk. U solve a lot of grass type's defensive problems. In return u dont have a lot of resist. Tangrowth certainly possess that kind of sheer bulk in the physical side, but not in the special side. This Tangrowth does not get downright rekt by flying types or fire types, but I'm afraid being weak to fighting and steel types now is going to hurt him a lot.

Calcs for attacks that Tangrowth was weak to before:

Hide

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 90-106 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 10.1% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 237-279 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Sun: 226-267 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tango actually still loses to Zard X 1v1, not to mention switching in. Wow Sp def Talon could still probably slowly boost and beat Tango.

Calcs for attacks that Tangrowth picks up a weakness to:

Hide

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 350-414 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 342-404 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 299-354 (74 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 362-428 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Tango used to be a decent switch-in to all of them above. Well, not anymore.

I'm not sure it has been mentioned already, but an interesting aspect of grass/rock Tango is its walling capability in sand. Its now immune to sand damage and gets a nice sp def boost in sand. Couple that with a possible Assault vest and regenerator, you've got an immortal tank in your hand.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Sand: 134-160 (33.1 - 39.6%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Sand: 109-130 (26.9 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Thats two of the most powerful neutral special attacks in OU, and Tangrowth is taking as much as it recovers with regen alone. The obvious problem with this is though the sustainablity of sand. But it goes to show how tanky it can potentially be. On the offensive side it gets stab rock slide/ancient power now, which I don't see being too useful.

Grass/rock Tangrowth imo will be rather different from normal Tangrowth in terms of what it checks/counters. But here's where lack of actual resist comes back to hurt it. It gets better at special walling, and most physical things now have a way to get past it. It kinds feels niche I guess, but an interesting slate nonetheless.

Sorry for the long ass post. I was just thinking aloud, and a Gyarados sized post popped up.

 

[Kurona]

Can't... entirely say I'm getting behind this thread at the moment. Maybe that'll change later, but I'll go through my thoughts rn.

Mega Tyranitar + Sand Force:
Broke. I know, this sounds really rich coming from the bitch who slated Contrary Infernape; but honestly what stops this thing just tearing through teams? You can revenge it with scarf keld and an already mega'd beedrill, but... damn. This is just scary.

Forretress + Water Absorb:
Uhm. Okay? I mean looking into it it is a pretty nice wall to waters now, especially since a ton of them like Keld, Gyara and Azu have their secondary STAB and other coverage hit on the physical side (252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 118-139 (33.3 - 39.2%) -- 13.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) but as pika pal has said, what's it doing after that...? I mean... yeah, it's a nice blanket check to waters, but Forretress' problem was never that it couldn't wall things, just that it couldn't do anything after. Now you could argue it has much more ease setting up hazards, but personally if I wanted something to take Keld's hits, I'd want that something to take Keld down. Explosion at 252+ attack doesn't even OHKO Keldeo. I mean, this theorymon... sort of works, it's a kind of solid buff, but I really don't see it being significant in practise.

Mega Sceptile + Technician:
Very on the fence about this one. On one hand it does get a boost to Hidden Power (don't even try and justify the other moves that get a buff; they're just not significant enough to talk about) which honestly, I've wanted for ages - Roserade does get the combination but lol Roserade; I've just wanted a Technician abuser which is good in OU and can turn HP Fires into Flamethrowers, for instance. On one hand this would greatly improve Sceptile's coverage. On the other hand... it's still kind of weak. It's still relying on all of it's attacks aside from Leaf Storm having pretty weak power and hence still struggles; not to mention this 'buff' does actually take away one of the unique things about Sceptile as a RKer and one of the bigger reasons to use it - immunity to Paralysis. I don't think people realize how huge this is; they kind of take it for granted but at the end of the day you don't have the luxury of easily cutting Sceptile's speed in half with Thundy, for instance. You don't get that safety. Giving Sceptile a different ability - especially one that doesn't do anything for his weak power problem - doesn't sound appealing to me.

Tangrowth + Grass/Rock:
Eeeeggghhh... sorry, I've been sounding like a complete whiner throughout this whole thing, but I'm really not getting this. I think what most people are missing here that only Lord Abbadon has pointed out so far (sorry if I missed anyone), is that Tangrowth is now almost completely devoid of resists - all it gets are a resistance to Normal and Electric, the latter of which it already had and the former of which is so incredibly inconsequential considering it's usually paired with something super effective against grass/rock. One of the better things about Tangrowth was it's ability to pivot into a lot of great special attackers with it's key resists to Water, Ground and Electric then score a win, while switching out to still have a bit of longevity. For instance, it completely fucked over Keldeo because it's water moves - and even icy wind - weren't doing shit, and Secret Sword only done like 50% max. Well guess what, since it no longer resists water and now has a massive weakness to Fighting, it can't reliably do that anymore. I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing what this can do - AM said it now just checks different things, but I REALLY want to see what it can check better now that it couldn't before.


All in all I think I'll vote Water Absorb Forretress at the end of this slate; since T-tar's blatantly broke and the other two just seem like downgrades.

 

[Martin]

People have been saying how T-Tar is crippled by losing sand stream later on in the match, but it pairs v. well with Hippowdon, which can set up sand for it and, as such, allow it to wallbreak once again.

 

[SparksBlade]

I and astroboy submitted so many ideas on your wall Mysteria and you choose to ignore us ;-;

anyway to the slate:

Mega Sceptile+Technician: idk it just hits slightly harder with some different moves, a strong HP Ice/whatever is the main point of it imo

Tangrowth+Rock Typing: This is really odd. I believe it used to wall Keldeo+couple physical attackers like Lando-t. Doesn't look like it'll be able to do so.
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 106-126 (26.2 - 31.1%) -- 9.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 145-172 (35.8 - 42.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This feels promising, but i'm still unsure on this one.

Mega Tyranitar+Sand Force: It's 1-time show that has so much potential to fail, unless paired with hippo. It's good vs offense but against others it needs to be played well to work.

Forretress+Water Absorb: ah stupid ol forry. really interesting in now it gets more opportunities to come in and lay hazards or remove them or just volt switch for momentum, gets recovery as well.

looking forward to more discussion about tangrowth and forry cos they're the oddballs here. curious slate this one gj council :]

 

[Pipotchi]

interesting slate

first thing that comes to mind is that mega tyranitar with sand force doesnt seem worth the mega slot. his main attraction is the wallbreaking power of sand force boosted stone edge paired with dragon dances, but comparing the value of a sand force boosted +1 stone edge to tyrantrum's +1 head smash:

+1 252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 222-262 (50 - 59%)

+1 252 Atk Sand Force Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia in Sand: 240-283 (54 - 63.7%)

thats itemless tyrantrum who occupies the identical 71 speed tier and with an identical accuracy move doing almost the same damage as your mega. if you're looking for a wallbreaker who also has a little sweeping potential i would think tyrantrum is more scary? since it can also be holding a life orb (or even stone plate..) to boost its damage way past tyranitar's. i mean i know tyranitar offers a bunch of other valuable things over tyrantrum such as a different secondary offensive typing and huge bulk, but tyrantrum's bulk is not too bad by any means and can switch in and out much more freely to perform its main role of blowing things up thanks to not being on a timer with sand force. plus we shouldnt undersell the value of sand stream as an ability- tyranitar still has the 2nd most weaknesses in the game at 7, and being able to boost its defenses with its own sand can really help mitigate a pretty bad defensive typing and prevent happenings like this:

252 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 266-314 (78 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 306-360 (89.7 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

i mean i know noone cares about tyrantrum at all but thats the comparison id see here, mega tyranitar isnt really breaking any new ground if it tries to focus on wallbreaking and it loses its uniqueness and value in the process


next, mega sceptile i think looks cool from the surface at least. a swords dance set compliments its 110/145/145 stats and it has access to an incredibly powerful hp ice or leaf storm to really lay into a few common physical walls-


0 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Slowbro: 354-416 (89.8 - 105.5%)
0 SpA Technician Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 428-508 (112 - 132.9%)

this guy's physical movepool is actually not bad at all too, being able to use aerial ace, bulldoze, rock tomb, thunderpunch, a bunch of other stuff (lol got lazy) and then the obvious two gems of bullet seed and dual chop which both stand out as good attacks to boost his arguably medium base atk. i just see technician mega sceptile as something that can deal with so many things at once- beating focus sashes, outspeeding scarves, dealing heavy immediate damage while also being able to boost and sweep, being able to beat many potential checks with a wide range of physical and special coverage... he also has recovery in synthesis to pair with boosting, and access to a 60BP quick attack that deals 51-62% to a thundurus (67 with adamant which is an option)- not perfect but it has a lot of options with its physical movepool is what im saying- and lastly, sceptile can find the opportunities for switchins to set up a swords dance thanks to 3 4x resists. im gunna almost definitely vote for this guy because he seems the best and also the most interesting.


grass/rock tangrowth seems messy, forcing him to lose out on some key resists. does anyone have any calcs of tangrowth being a good special wall for sand teams btw? cus his special defense is pretty disappointing for a dedicated special wall...

water absorb forretress doesnt do anything to stop forretress' issue that it doesnt pressure anything and is a free switchin for anything which is pretty horrifying in ou

 

[Sun King]

The thought that Forry is a free switch in for anything in OU is completely and utterly false. The only things that get a free switch in are Ground-types. Maybe I need to reiterate what a slow Volt-Switch can do…

Thanks to Forretress's speed, you can basically ENSURE that you get something in safely. Not only that, but you can ensure that you get THE BEST possible switch in to whatever is coming in. The only things you can't switch on are Ground Types, and those can be played around with double switches. Forretress doesn't come in and "do…nothing". It comes in and pivots out to WHATEVER thing you need to safely get in. The only reason I never used Forry more in OU was because its sustainability was complete asshole. Now that it actually has more sustainability, it's worth using.

 

[Pipotchi]

The thought that Forry is a free switch in for anything in OU is completely and utterly false. The only things that get a free switch in are Ground-types. Maybe I need to reiterate what a slow Volt-Switch can do…

Thanks to Forretress's speed, you can basically ENSURE that you get something in safely. Not only that, but you can ensure that you get THE BEST possible switch in to whatever is coming in. The only things you can't switch on are Ground Types, and those can be played around with double switches. Forretress doesn't come in and "do…nothing". It comes in and pivots out to WHATEVER thing you need to safely get in. The only reason I never used Forry more in OU was because its sustainability was complete asshole. Now that it actually has more sustainability, it's worth using.

i know what a slow volt switch does. i completely exaggerated but there's still a ground type on every team and 6 out of the 7 ground types in A rank and above have no issues with forretress, all of which are SR setters, one of which can spin away forretress's hazards and one of which being the most popular pokemon in teambuilding, landorus-t. forretress isnt going to see many games where a slow volt switch can be used particularly reliably and the argument of double-switching is non pokemon-specific and out-prediction is something that can happen on both sides. i guess forretress does now have an unreliable form of sustainability but it keeps a bunch of horrible problems and there are other mons that offer a slow switch along with excelling at their other roles instead of being a mediocre damage sponge- for instance defensive rotom is slow enough to underspeed most pokemon in the top rankings that are an offensive threat whilst also being able to cripple slower mons with wisp or t-wave, and actually being threatening offensively (especially to ground types) means they have an actual incentive to switch out.. same applies for scizor and u-turn. forretress is a liability to any team when it chooses to stay in, i dont think anyone can really deny that- i mean i havent seen a forry in OU for a while, but playing even in uu which is less offensive forretress staying in is something that can be capitalized on very easily by a huge range of sweepers.
having a scald switchin is nice i guess

 

[YouAreOutOfMy5]

Both the Sceptile and Tangrowth slates were my submissions but I wanted to post what I originally said about Tangrowth! Quite frankly, he needs some more love and he can potentially be a scary special defensive pivot in sand.

1. From Grass -> Grass/Rock, he trade's in notable fire, and flying weaknesses into fighting and steel weaknesses. Not bad considering that flying is everywhere due to birdspam and the most prominent fire attacks are mostly special attacks anyways. Tangrowth also has a massive defense stat to deal with most fighting type attacks too.

2. The flavor is absolutely perfect. Remember what move Tangela needs to know in order to evolve into Tangrowth? That's right: Ancient Power. And that brings me to number...

3. Tangrowth's best set in OU right now is an assault vest pivot:

tangrowth

10 bands (Tangrowth) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

However, you can easily replace HP ice with a brand new STAB in Rock slide. While not able to 2hko some dragon and ground types, it still offers some more variety in Tangrowth's coverage moves.

4. Rock types gain a boost to its special defense stat in sandstorms, which Tangrowth desperately needs at times due his natural special bulk being abysmal. With the added sp def bonus, it is able live some very powerful super effective moves:

calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD AV Tangrowth in Sand: 195-231 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD AV Tangrowth in Sand: 140-168 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD AV Tangrowth in Sand: 128-152 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD AV Tangrowth in Sand: 164-195 (40.5 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

...and occasionally threaten to OHKO back with or without stealth rocks on the field

more calcs

0 SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 252-300 (78.9 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 272-324 (84.2 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 256-304 (91.1 - 108.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 212-250 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Sacrificial Lambtias]

Mega Tyranitar
This buff is not bad, but it is something I'd never use. The idea of hitting like a freight train with STAB stone edge sounds fun, but I have to sacrifice my mega slot for it, and since this is a sand setter before Mega evo, I'd be sacrificing that too.
Mega Sceptile
I like this more than Ttar. It allows it to use some cool moves that never see any usage such as dragonbreath effectively. However, when I asked about giving Sceptile a new ability, I was told that it's niche was paralysis immunity, and something that changed that niche wasn't worth slating. I probably won't vote for this.
Tangrowth
The typing is actually a lot nicer than one might think it to be. Sandstorm SpDef boost and Flying and Fire Neutralities. However, this comes at the cost of water and grass resistances, along with giving it steel and fighting weaknesses. This definitely changes Tangrowth's matchups, but I think it would work for the better.
Forretress
This is a nice counter to many water types, but I'm not sure that this would become OU viable. It also loses sturdy, reducing it's reliability against anything that is not a water type.

 

[GnralLao]

Alright, so I feel like it's needed to list and compare all weaknesses, neutralities and resistances between "regular" Tangrowth and "Theorymon" Tangrowth to show how the typing change affects it:

Grass-type Tangrowth

• Quad resistances: none.
• Resistances: Water, Electric, Grass, Ground. (4)
• Neutralities: Normal, Fighting, Psychic, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, Steel, Fairy. (9)
• Weaknesses: Fire, Ice, Poison, Flying, Bug. (5)
• Quad weaknesses: none.

Grass/Rock-type Tangrowth

• Quad resistances: none.
• Resistances: Normal, Electric. (2)
• Neutralities: Fire, Water, Grass, Poison, Ground, Flying, Psychic, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, Fairy. (12)
• Weaknesses: Ice, Fighting, Bug, Steel. (4)
• Quad resistances: none. (italicized types are upgrades and bolded ones are downgrades)

On one side, Tangrowth loses on crucial resistances to Water-, Grass- and Ground-type moves in exchange for a much less relevant Normal-type resistance (like it was previously stated, most of the mons, if not all, that carry Normal-type moves carry moves from other types for at least neutral damage) which is pretty detrimental for the tank/pivot/physical wall that it is even though it has one weakness less. On the other side though, aside from getting STAB on 2-3 moves, its additional Rock-typing gives it an immunity to Sandstorm damage and provides a nice SpDef boost while in said Sandstorm (if it's in the sand, fully invested in SpDef and has an Assault Vest, Tangrowth's SpDef reaches a whopping 490!), which are big assets that'll surely contribute to its success. The problem I have with this is that Tangrowth would probably be overly reliant on sand to effectively accomplish its role (or more effectively than "regular" Tangrowth at least).

In overall, Tangrowth would be a great addition to sand teams, but without the sand, it just fails to excel at what it does best due to its lack of useful resistances.

 

[Celticpride]

I wouldn't say Tangrowth would be too great on Sand teams. It compounds an already large Fighting weakness (Exca and TTar) and Rock takes away Water and Grass resists which are invaluable to Sand teams, regardless of who the Sand setter is. Because of the weaknesses Sand cores share they are already limited to a degree in what kinds of teammates they can add and mono-Grass Tangrowth probably works better from that perspective.

 

[NinetyNineNo]

Two of my favorite mons in this one. Nice!

Mega Tyranitar + Sand Force: I really like this one. Synergy > brainless buffs any day, and Sand Stream -> Sand Force is that. It's a one-time use, so it'd have to be reserved for either late-game cleaning or overpowering walls (helped by the unpredictability), but the raw power more than makes up for it. You could compare it with DD Tyrantrum in terms of strength (also, same speed), but Tyrantrum (as much as I love him) is something of a one-trick pony, whereas Tyranitar is very versatile, and bulky as all hell to boot. I think the balance between pros and cons of this one is just about right.

Mega Sceptile + Technician: The other favorite. First off the bat is the obvious: HP. Which would make it a lot easier for Sceptile to break past its usual checks and counters, even unboosted, a SE 90BP attack off invested 145 SpA hurts. Taking a look at Sceptile's movepool, though, there's a lot more to it. Dragonbreath is the obvious (lol 30% paralyze, move over Scald), and Dual Chop (which isn't in the dex, might wanna update that), but if actually has a bunch of usable stuff. Interestingly, it's mostly physical, but M-Scep's stats are good enough to afford going mixed. Aerial Ace, Bulldoze, Double Kick, Bullet Seed, Power-Up-Punch, Rock Tomb, all give it a fairly wide range of options for coverage and some utility. The loss of the T-Wave immunity hurts, but in my opinion it's still a net gain.

Tangrowth + Grass/Rock: Never I thought I'd see someone pushing for adding a Rock-Type to a mon for a defensive buff. I suppose the Sandstorm SpD bonus is nice, but the fire/flying neutrality and Rock Slide STAB (lol) don't make up for everything else it loses. It's a sidegrade at best, probably a downgrade.

Forretress + Water Absorb: Meh. Volt Switch or not, Forry is way too passive for my tastes. It has some nice utility, but Water Absorb doesn't seem to do much beyond providing switchins for Scalds and so on. Not a fan.

 

[GnralLao]

I wouldn't say Tangrowth would be too great on Sand teams. It compounds an already large Fighting weakness (Exca and TTar) and Rock takes away Water and Grass resists which are invaluable to Sand teams, regardless of who the Sand setter is. Because of the weaknesses Sand cores share they are already limited to a degree in what kinds of teammates they can add and mono-Grass Tangrowth probably works better from that perspective.

Yeah, you're right. This just adds to my point that a Grass/Rock typing for Tangrowth probably isn't the best thing for it with or without sand.

How about Mega T-Tar then? Hippowdon and Cradily are the other sand setters and they also rack up Water, Grass, Steel, Bug and Fighting weaknesses. Is there any manual sand setter that would pair well with it or would one of these two be the best fit to pair with Mega T-Tar once it has MegaEvolved?

 

[AM]

Grass / Rock Tangrowth would work best with Hippowdon if you're talking about Sand + Tangrowth. It's sort of weird though considering sand is also decreasing the amount gained from Giga Drain one of the best sources of recovery on its AV set as well as Synthesis. On the flip side Tangrowth lets you beat out some of its problems mentioned already like Heatran lacking Steel coverage a bit more easily.