Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

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252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 230-270 (88.1 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now that stinks. If Raichu's bulk is really that bad, I don't know how many setup opportunities you can grab.
With Lightning Rod, you could technically set up off Electric types like Rotom-W and choiced Magnezone, but nothing else, seeing as you only have one resistance/immunity and seriously crappy bulk.

252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raichu: 78-93 (29.8 - 35.6%) <---- Magnezone 3HKOes after Life Orb recoil.
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raichu: 148-175 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <---good luck setting up now :I
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 123-146 (47.1 - 55.9%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO <--what is this? Ferro getting the 2HKO on Raichu?

If freaking Ferrothorn and Rotom-W can cleanly 2HKO this thing, and Talon/Mega Lopunny/Serperior can safely revenge kill it...
...I'm sorry, I don't see much OU potential for it. Seems like our friend Raichu will go the way of Mega Houndoom.
I'd like to ask what exactly is wrong with Mega Houndoom? It's very much an underrated threat in the meta with a lot of late-game cleaning potential, which funnily enough, I see the same thing happening with Raichu.
Sure it can't set up on a ton of shit without getting hurt, but look at your calcs -- two and three hit KOs all around. Like Houndoominite, Sharpedonite etc., if it's in a late-game situation where priority and faster 'mon are down, it can get up a set-up opportunity and proceed to clean. Tail Glow immediately makes it very threatening, and with a very good speed tier I fail to see what makes it particularly bad. Admittedly it might not be as impressive as some of the others on this slate, but it's still a very good and fun buff. Hell, I can't remember if we've had any late-game cleaners on the theorymon project recently - correct me if I'm wrong on this - so seeing something with that role is really fun. This honestly might get my vote.
 
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 230-270 (88.1 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now that stinks. If Raichu's bulk is really that bad, I don't know how many setup opportunities you can grab.
With Lightning Rod, you could technically set up off Electric types like Rotom-W and choiced Magnezone, but nothing else, seeing as you only have one resistance/immunity and seriously crappy bulk.

252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raichu: 78-93 (29.8 - 35.6%) <---- Magnezone 3HKOes after Life Orb recoil.
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raichu: 148-175 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <---good luck setting up now :I
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 123-146 (47.1 - 55.9%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO <--what is this? Ferro getting the 2HKO on Raichu?

If freaking Ferrothorn and Rotom-W can cleanly 2HKO this thing, and Talon/Mega Lopunny/Serperior can safely revenge kill it...
...I'm sorry, I don't see much OU potential for it. Seems like our friend Raichu will go the way of Mega Houndoom.
The only issue I take with this is that your latter set of 3 calcs only accounts for what they're doing to Raichu. Raichu is frail, but as a late game sweeper or Stall breaker is he ALWAYS going to be the one coming in? Say he's brought in to Ferro on a turn where it goes for Rocks, Leech Seed, or even Thunder Wave. Raichu gets to +3, and odds are in late game he's not getting hit again. Also, Looking at the calculator, your Ferro calc is off

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (128 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 105-124 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Ferro's not 2HKOing w/out Hazards, and 53% with rocks)
+3 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 502-593 (142.6 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Raichu also can create some opportunities to set up the same way others can: threatening out. While his normal offenses are low, he's fast enough to pull some revenges, and his coverage is pretty sweet for an Electric type. Even assuming he can't set up, Raichu's not completely incapable of putting in work against defensive mons

252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 291-343 (103.5 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 192-229 (49.8 - 59.4%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I think Raichu's problem is that he got thrown on a slate with several obviously better mons. I also think people are looking at him wrong because of the Tail Glow comparison to Manaphy. Manaphy's good bulk, defensive typing and ability mean he uses Tail Glow as a wallbreaker for mid game that avoids being worn out against Stall. Raichu's better speed and outright immunity to Paralysis, as well as stopping Volt Switch makes him better to function as a late game sweeper, when things that could exploit his set up turn are gone, though he still can do work against defensive builds.
 
I just wanted to say that Thundurus completely outclasses Raichu, leaving it with no niche except an Electric immunity, which isn't that big of an advantage over Thundurus. Thundurus has the same coverage as Raichu and more, along with the ability to go mixed. It also has more immediate power which is crucial at times when you can't set-up (which Raichu can't do on much anyway sadly). Even when set-up...well look at these:

+3 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Focus Blast vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 751-886 (232.5 - 274.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 751-886 (232.5 - 274.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Thundurus has the exact same damage output at +2 as Raichu does at +3. Also Thundurus outspeeds the crowded 110 speed tier, unlike Raichu who can, at best, tie them. Also Thundurus can actually set-up on some thing as it can threaten something out which Raichu can barely ever do because it's pretty weak without a boost. It also has better bulk enabling it to set-up on a bit more than what Raichu can.

I know this isn't the viability thread, but this is a thread whose purpose is to make unviable Pokemon viable in the meta by giving them a buff. Raichu does get a buff....but no reason to use it over Thundurus unless you desperately need an Electric immunity that has offensive presence.
 
That's unfortunate. I suppose Raichu does get Surf and Grass Knot, but out of that, there is really little point in voting for something that's so thoroughly outclassed. Interesting to see that those 35 points in SpA make for exactly 25% more power, though.
 
That's unfortunate. I suppose Raichu does get Surf and Grass Knot, but out of that, there is really little point in voting for something that's so thoroughly outclassed. Interesting to see that those 35 points in SpA make for exactly 25% more power, though.
Thundurus gets Grass Knot too.
And Thundurus can also grab a setup opportunity much easier than Raichu, forcing out mons that fear Prankster paralysis.
 

Pent

dumb broad
Contrary + Infernrape


I think Kurona was tripping.

Seriously though, this thing is like "LETS GIVE TALONFLAME HUGE POWER + GALE WINGS"
JUST.
NO.

Tail Glow + Raichu

Cool idea and all, but you need a Focus Sash to really even set up a Tail Glow due to Raichu being extremely frail. It also already has Nasty Plot and LightningRod, so I see no point in this other than let's slap a cool move that fits perfectly on other Mons on a shitmon like Raichu.

Steel / Dragon Mega Aggron

I've always loved this combo of typing, almost as much as Dark / Psychic. I feel it fits Aggron pretty well, and gives Filter more of a use. It also has access to moves like Dragon Tail, Outrage (I think?), and Dragon Claw which can all be boosted by Curse. The only problem with this is that it gets a few more neutral weaknesses like Ice, Fairy, and Dragon.

Intimidate + Garchomp

To be completely honest, I don't think we can improve Mega Garchomp. Other than giving him Sand Stream/Rush, we can't do much with him. He doesn't have too much bulk, is slow, and even though he hits hard, he still is murdered by Ice Types. Sorry, but I'm not a bit fan of this one either

Not too big of a fan of this slate, felt a bit lazy to me.

Props anyway.
 
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SparksBlade

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js but raichu beats lando and hippo with surf, while thundy doesn't beat hippo and lando unless it has np+hp ice(it runs mostly hp flying i guess)
raichu nails a guaranteed 2hko on hippo with surf unboosted, and has a 68.8% to ohko lando after rocks
raichu can also sometimes beat thundy with tbolt(unboosted)+espeed
 

SparksBlade

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idk the calc says np thundy uses hp flying, venu isn't dead it's just waiting in the shadows, and ofc surf is stronger w/o messing with your IVs. Thundurus will still have priority twave, np, superpower etc. but as a set-up mon, raichu could be better
 
js but raichu beats lando and hippo with surf, while thundy doesn't beat hippo and lando unless it has np+hp ice(it runs mostly hp flying i guess)
raichu nails a guaranteed 2hko on hippo with surf unboosted, and has a 68.8% to ohko lando after rocks
raichu can also sometimes beat thundy with tbolt(unboosted)+espeed
But Thundurus also gets the 2HKO on Hippowdon with Grass Knot.

252 SpA Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 288-340 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It has a decent chance to OHKO with Life Orb, too. Getting Landorus is the one definite advantage I can see.
 
While I'm not a huge fan of Tail Glow Raichu, it still has some niches over Thundurus. One being no rocks weakness, which is handy so you don't get worn down as quickly with LO. Secondly, it has Lightning Rod to check such threats like Raikou, Manectric, and even Thundurus itself. And finally, now this is super niche, but Raichu can run a SubEndeavor set or an Encore set while Thundurus can't. Plus Raichu has a surprise factor, which is neat I guess. Still nothing that is going to shake the meta, but still something that could warrant a D ranking.
 
After finding out that +3 Raichu and +2 Thundurus do that same amount of damage, and thundurus hits initially harder I see no reason to even consider voting on this.

Now towards Contrary infernape and M-Aggron Dragon/Steel. that will probably be the top two votes. Infernape will actually be a threat in OU once again. A threat but not broken which is nice because that can definitely shake up theorymon. And Aggron has a niche to be used in OU.
 
This slate is most likely between Contrary Infernape and Dragon/Steel Mega Aggron. Personally I really like both, but Dragon/Steel Mega Aggron is just such a nice typing. I really can't say no to this. I hope that whichever mon gets second place returns in a futures second place thread.
 

SparksBlade

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raichu has lightningrod, fake out(nice on tspikes), espeed, surf, not as much affected by rocks, while thundy has priority twave and some other obv stuff, the rat is not outclassed as much as it's being thought to be
 

Patolegend!

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raichu has lightningrod, fake out(nice on tspikes), espeed, surf, not as much affected by rocks, while thundy has priority twave and some other obv stuff, the rat is not outclassed as much as it's being thought to be
The problem is that it hasn't got that many slots to give up to take advantage of fake out/espeed AND take advantage of tail glow - it needs two coverage moves really, so its just surf and lightning rod.
 
raichu has lightningrod, fake out(nice on tspikes), espeed, surf, not as much affected by rocks, while thundy has priority twave and some other obv stuff, the rat is not outclassed as much as it's being thought to be
The problem is that realistically, these are very minute niches to hold over Thundurus unfortunately. For the most part Thundurus still outclasses it; and even if Raichu held enough niches let's face it, it's not bringing anything new to the meta we don't already have.
Which is annoying because I thought it would and I wanna see GF's least favourite pokemon usurp it's stupid pre-evolved form .^.
 
While I'm not a huge fan of Tail Glow Raichu, it still has some niches over Thundurus. One being no rocks weakness, which is handy so you don't get worn down as quickly with LO. Secondly, it has Lightning Rod to check such threats like Raikou, Manectric, and even Thundurus itself. And finally, now this is super niche, but Raichu can run a SubEndeavor set or an Encore set while Thundurus can't. Plus Raichu has a surprise factor, which is neat I guess. Still nothing that is going to shake the meta, but still something that could warrant a D ranking.
The problem with this is....why would it be D rank with Tail Glow (when it already has Nasty Plot, so not much of a difference) if it's not viable right now? SubEndeavor is bad and that's why Keldeo's Endeavor set that's on the calculator isn't ranked. Raichu isn't that good at checking those Electrics either because it doesn't want to (can't actually) switch into any other move. And Thundurus also has utility moves like Thunder Wave and Taunt (which is arguably more useful than Encore).

SparksBlade ultimately none of those are enough to make it be used over Thundurus or even another cleaner like Serperior. Adding spin or defog support isn't terribly hard to fit into a team and Surf isn't that good especially when it has things like Focus Blast and Grass Knot which is better coverage for Raichu. Fake Out is weak and Extremespeed....eh I guess that's another thing (other being Lightningrod but that's it really). As a set-up sweeper Raichu is 99% outclassed by Thundurus or even its Therian forme.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Raichu or anything - I just don't think it'll be viable and it faces severe competition from things that can do a lot else as well. Maybe it just needs a different buff :P
 
I'm not sure that Dragon typing is what Aggron really needs. I've been toying with it in OU and defensively it's absolutely rock solid anyway, and I'm not sure an extra 30bp on its Dragon Tails would be make or break. What really holds it back is its lack of recovery. Without that it probably isn't moving up past C rank imo; literally all the successful defensive megas in OU have it (Sableye, Venusaur, Slowbro, defensive variants of Altaria and Scizor), and Mega Aggron can take hits and dish them out better than most of them already. So I think this one is seriously overrated for not actually fixing the problem with Aggron. I do see how it widens the list of what he can check - but it doesn't change the fact that unless you have a wish passer (which you can't always rely on even if you do) it can only switch in so many times in a game, so it can't really be a defensive backbone for its team.

Intimidate on Mega Garchomp, though, I think would be excellent. Mega Chomp's problem has always been being outclassed by his vanilla form, besides of course in the sand. Intimidate gives it a much more solid, much more versatile niche, one that Garchomp can't claim to the same extent, in being a beastly offensive tank. There's so much that it can switch in on with impunity (sup Lando T), and once it does the pressure is immediately on. Plus, Between Stealth Rock and Dragon Tail, we already know that Chomp is good in a supportive role. Intimidate on his mega would only improve that.

No thoughts on Contrary Nape and Tail Glow Raichu that haven't been covered by others. One is too much, the other is not enough.
 


Steel / Dragon Mega Aggron is an excellent buff in my opinion. Let's think for a moment. What does a Dragon-type add to Mega Aggron, really? A neutrality to Ice-, Fairy-, and Dragon-type moves. That's not very fun, is it? Well, Fairy- and Ice-types get smacked by Heavy Slam either way, so these are irrelevant. One of the most powerful Outrages in the tier, Garchomp's, does not 2HKO even with 252+ Choice Band. The biggest difference is Latios, which now 2HKOes with Draco Meteor; however, it heavily dislikes Ice Punch. The ideal set for it, in my opinion, is Thunder Wave | Heavy Slam | Dragon Tail | Stealth Rock. This set would be an excellent wall that is able to spread around paralysis, force switches with a powerful Dragon Tail, and keep hazards up. The biggest asset is really Dragon Tail. Dragon Tail forces out Rapid Spin / Defog Pokemon and force them to take even more Stealth Rock damage. Latios is OHKOed by Dragon Tail after Stealth Rock, as is Latias. Starmie takes a large chunk of damage from Dragon Tail, and will be 2HKOed after Stealth Rock damage twice. Basically, Rapid Spin / Defog users get shuffled out as they switch in. The typing provides something Mega Aggron could've originally never thought of doing: checking Mega Charizard X. Flare Blitz will not 2HKO it, and a boosted one will not OHKO it. Dragon Tail, in the meantime, KOes after Stealth Rock (in X, not base), or it could cripple it with Thunder Wave. I feel Mega Aggron is an excellent Pokemon and it would provide a great wall that can spread paralysis and Stealth Rock, while keeping it up on defensively-oriented teams!
 
We begin voting now.

Some reminders:
  • Please bold your votes!
  • Please do not put random references in your vote. We want to see you vote for "Inernape + Contrary", not "Blazing Chicken + Contrary".
  • Please do not insult other users for their votes. Everyone has their own opinion.
  • Please keep the propaganda / advertisement to a respectful level.
  • Please do not bandwagon votes; vote for what you want to see chosen!
It makes it much less difficult for myself and other council members. If you do not follow these rules, I will skip your vote. We do not mean to be harsh, but it's very easy for this thread to get disorganized / cluttered, and we're trying to prevent that!

Here's your slate everybody!


Infernape + Contrary

credit to Kurona

Mega Garchomp + Intimdate


Raichu + Tail Glow


Mega Aggron + Dragon Typing

My vote: Mega Aggron + Dragon Typing.


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On a separate note, I'd like to give you guys some thoughts. We've been having a problem with users submitting overpowered / flavorless / boring theorymons, so I've created a list of what the theorymon council will look for in submissions. We reject a lot of ideas, but we also accept a lot of them as well! Let's spruce up our ideas!
  • Is the buff a mindless offensive or defensive buff?
    • We do not want to see Aerilate Noivern, nor do we want to see Fur Coat Blissey.
  • Does the buff change a mechanic?
    • As cool as it would be to have Meloetta-Piroutte, the point of this project is to buff Pokemon and not tweak mechanics.
  • Does the buff have flavor to it?
    • Obviously we will stretch flavor at times, but we do not want Shell Smash Aurorus because you think it can smash the rocks on its body. It can't!
  • How does the buff affect the OU Metagame?
    • At the end of the day, this is our purpose. Does this Pokemon positively influence it? Negatively?
  • Is your buff worth it?
    • Minor buffs like say Sheer Force Porygon sounds great and all, but do these changes affect the Pokemon enough to make it viable?
  • Going off of the last bullet, please re-read the first bullet.
    • Re-read it! >:I
  • Has it been slated before?
    • This is important, yet some people do not check beforehand. It's a quick search, so please do!
If you've read the terms and agreements, then please PM / VM all of: unfixable, Mysteria, Sun King, Vertex, Valmanway, Recreant. We will all bring it up in our PM together, so you *can* VM / PM only one of us. We will all see it eventually. It's just easier to PM all of us at once. Do not post them in this thread, as we've warned repeatedly.


That's all guys. Thank you so much for being excellent, we really appreciate it. :)
 
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