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Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]
- Thread starter bb skarm
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Well if a baby knows what's good, then that pretty much overrules every other vote.Really tough choice between Nape and Empoleon. In the end, though, while I think Empoleon is cooler and really like the Lightningrod buff, I think Infernape would have a bigger impact on OU. So, I'm going to vote for...
Infernape + Prankster
I'm at work right now, so I can't do a Theorymon-specific photo, but here was Hogg Jr.'s reaction when I explained that Multiscale Milotic won the last slate:
EDIT: Good god, sorry all. That picture did not look so friggin' massive from my phone. I just got onto a desktop and I was assaulted with a picture of my baby that might be larger than the actual baby. Resizing now.
Lighting rod + Empoleon
I definitely knew it was going to be between Infernape and Empoleon--and if I'm being totally honest--I think Empoleon is boring. Yeah it can do stuff like SR or Defog and switch in on some cool stuff, but I really think Infernape would be much more fun to play with. You'd always have something to do. This is kind of like when we voted for Protean Goodra in the sense that it just is less situational than Empoleon. You'll always get to use it no matter what.
Empoleon + Lightning Rod
Forretress + Sticky Web
Finally a viable setter that isn't a boring old tanky moldy rock thing
Finally a viable setter that isn't a boring old tanky moldy rock thing
Infernape + Prankster
Very punny. *Slow clapping*I don't want to alarm anyone, but I hear Hogg Jr. is just bananas for Prankster Infernape.
actually it was a combination of memory loss and no alerts
Empoleon+LightningRod
Infernape + Prankster
Empoleon + Lightning Rod
Hey guys. Calling votes.
Winner:
+ Lightning Rod
Votes:
Lightning Rod Empoleon: 15
Prankster Infernape: 10
Sticky Web Forretress: 1
Regenerator Florges: 1
Our new slate:
+ Focus Blast
+ Contrary
+ Dragon Dance (submitted by Recreant and Sacrificial Lambtias)
+ Volt Switch (submitted by hawk1113)
That's it, discuss!
Winner:
Votes:
Lightning Rod Empoleon: 15
Prankster Infernape: 10
Sticky Web Forretress: 1
Regenerator Florges: 1
Our new slate:
That's it, discuss!
Sweet, nice new ask slate. I'll be home in 20, so I'll just do basic reactions, and edit later, but...
Flying/fighting coverage is great, just ask pinsir, but I don't think that's the only thing wrong with pidgey
Contrary is a huge buff to any fighting type, but I'm not sure if it's enough to compete with the flying spam and better right of the bat megas oras brought us
Intimidate + bulk + Dragon dance is a proven good strategy, but stealth rock is still a problem and even at +1 it will be our sped a lot
Bulky slow volt switch on a magic guard moon is fantastic, and it's my slim favorite right now, but psychic is still a terrible defensive type and I'd like to hear what exactly reun could do besides safe switches
Flying/fighting coverage is great, just ask pinsir, but I don't think that's the only thing wrong with pidgey
Contrary is a huge buff to any fighting type, but I'm not sure if it's enough to compete with the flying spam and better right of the bat megas oras brought us
Intimidate + bulk + Dragon dance is a proven good strategy, but stealth rock is still a problem and even at +1 it will be our sped a lot
Bulky slow volt switch on a magic guard moon is fantastic, and it's my slim favorite right now, but psychic is still a terrible defensive type and I'd like to hear what exactly reun could do besides safe switches
I am pretty damn sure at least half the votes'll go to Focus Blast Pidgeot; it's just too good of an option since it's generally well agreed that lack of another good spammable move/coverage is what dooms Pidgeot to the lower viability ranks. Hurricane/Heat Wave/Focus Blast/U-Turn would make it absolutely brilliant imo.
Focus Blast Pidgeot is a great option, providing extra coverage and a complete lack of a miss chance.
Pangoro is one of the most disappointing Pokemon. It has a fantastic move but too much of a crap speed to be able to abuse it. Contrary, however, is a good option for almost any pokemon. It would be one of pretty much every pokemon with Contrary to also have Superpower, but it also gets Hammer Arm if raising your speed is more your thing (which is a great idea).
For Arcanine, I don't know if Dragon Dance is really what it needs. I don't know what it needs, but Dragon Dance is a good option, I guess. Unfortunately, if I were to use a Dragon-type DDer, I'd rather use MegaZard X. I guess Arcanine doesn't use up a mega slot, but still...
I like Reuniclus. It's the epitome of Bulky Offense and it looks really cool too. Volt Switch would be a good option to provide momentum for the team, likely pairing well with Scizor.
Pangoro is one of the most disappointing Pokemon. It has a fantastic move but too much of a crap speed to be able to abuse it. Contrary, however, is a good option for almost any pokemon. It would be one of pretty much every pokemon with Contrary to also have Superpower, but it also gets Hammer Arm if raising your speed is more your thing (which is a great idea).
For Arcanine, I don't know if Dragon Dance is really what it needs. I don't know what it needs, but Dragon Dance is a good option, I guess. Unfortunately, if I were to use a Dragon-type DDer, I'd rather use MegaZard X. I guess Arcanine doesn't use up a mega slot, but still...
I like Reuniclus. It's the epitome of Bulky Offense and it looks really cool too. Volt Switch would be a good option to provide momentum for the team, likely pairing well with Scizor.
Arcanine is kind of a weird combination of the traits in OU's other Dragon Dancers, though not necessarily on the same level: He has Zard-X's recovery (Morning Sun vs. Roost is notable) and WoW immunity (and Rock weakness), Gyarados's Intimidate, and Dragonite's access to priority in Extremespeed. That said, while against more prestigious competition, Arcanine still ultimately has the same problems he had before: Jack of all trades, master of none. Arcanine doesn't have quite the bulk to tank hits naturally, he's just below the once good Base 100 of Zard-X (though he'll probably go Adamant), and he doesn't have quite the power to threaten for set-up opportunities.
Pidgeot certainly appreciates the additional coverage, but disregarding hax, I'm hard pressed to choose it over something like Tornadus-T, Talonflame, Aerodactyl, or Sceptile for the role of a fast cleaner, considering the former 2 can hold items to hit harder or bolster their effectiveness, the latter two are significantly faster (outspeeding Greninja is particularly important), and have more room for variance in their sets (Sceptile could go mixed, Talonflame's Stallbreaker sets, etc.). Pidgeot would get better, but it still has competition. The perfect accuracy helps compared to Tornadus, but considering how well Rain fares right now, that's not the biggest problem for him. Still, probably among the better ones on this slate.
Pangoro would be interesting, if only fully using his ability didn't compromise his coverage: Superpower is obviously the better "boosting" move, but without Hammer Arm's Speed, he's only gonna get so far. And even then, Pangoro's typing is still problematic with Bird Spam and Fairies everywhere, though deterring Lando-T switch-ins is neat. Also to consider is forfeiting Parting Shot, one of Pangoro's more distinct niches on his current sets, though it offers an interesting exploit for Sableye (if it works as I think it does).
I'm not the most familiar with Reuniclus, but given how well he works as a slow bulky mon, seems like he'd work well as a Volt Switcher, not to mention being an indirect asset to Trick Room, since switch initiative helps to maintain the style's extremely important momentum.
Pidgeot certainly appreciates the additional coverage, but disregarding hax, I'm hard pressed to choose it over something like Tornadus-T, Talonflame, Aerodactyl, or Sceptile for the role of a fast cleaner, considering the former 2 can hold items to hit harder or bolster their effectiveness, the latter two are significantly faster (outspeeding Greninja is particularly important), and have more room for variance in their sets (Sceptile could go mixed, Talonflame's Stallbreaker sets, etc.). Pidgeot would get better, but it still has competition. The perfect accuracy helps compared to Tornadus, but considering how well Rain fares right now, that's not the biggest problem for him. Still, probably among the better ones on this slate.
Pangoro would be interesting, if only fully using his ability didn't compromise his coverage: Superpower is obviously the better "boosting" move, but without Hammer Arm's Speed, he's only gonna get so far. And even then, Pangoro's typing is still problematic with Bird Spam and Fairies everywhere, though deterring Lando-T switch-ins is neat. Also to consider is forfeiting Parting Shot, one of Pangoro's more distinct niches on his current sets, though it offers an interesting exploit for Sableye (if it works as I think it does).
I'm not the most familiar with Reuniclus, but given how well he works as a slow bulky mon, seems like he'd work well as a Volt Switcher, not to mention being an indirect asset to Trick Room, since switch initiative helps to maintain the style's extremely important momentum.
I'll post much more in depth later, but I think Pangoro is not getting enough love. While yes, it needs to set up a Hammer Arm in order to function, it has the ability to hit very hard with Hammer Arm/Knock Off/Gunk Shot and then pivot out to something with Parting Shot. Yes, you could eliminate Parting Shot with Superpower, but I think that the team support that Parting Shot provides in the form of momentum is too much to pass up on. You'd end up with a Pokemon that functions very well mid-game and can either punch holes by predicting well, or can provide momentum to keep your opponent on their heels.
This is very easily my favorite of the bunch, and I'd like to see an actual Contrary user in OU. It's also the most interesting of the bunch, as it completely redefines Pangoro.
This is very easily my favorite of the bunch, and I'd like to see an actual Contrary user in OU. It's also the most interesting of the bunch, as it completely redefines Pangoro.
Focus Blast Pidgeot: It's already easy enough as it is to compare Mega Pidgeot to Tornadus-T, but now it's even more apparent, but that's a good thing, since Mega Pidgeot inherits some of Tornadus-T's pros. What can hold Tornadus-T back is how inaccurate Hurricane and Focus Blast were, but Mega Pidgeot would never have that problem thanks to No Guard. Even though Tornadus doesn't cost the team its Mega Evolution and the ability to hold an item, never worrying about an attack missing is one of the greatest feelings in a battle. Mega Pidgeot already had this advantage, but now that it has Focus Blast to actually threaten things like Rock-types and Heatran, I can see a definite niche here. I can see this one winning for sure.
Contrary Pangoro: This is kind of a weird idea, but it has some promise. With moves like Superpower and Hammer Arm to boost his stats, as well as perfect neutral coverage with Knock Off and Gunk Shot backing them up, Pangoro could easily become a huge threat if given the chance. The problem, however, is getting the momentum to begin with, and while he has decent bulk, he has easily exploitable weaknesses in Flying- and Fairy-type moves. Pangoro also has terrible Speed, so Choice Scarf users would easily get the jump on him. But if you can get it to work, you could easily clean house late game. Also giving Intimidate, Defog, and Sticky Web users the bird would be hilarious. If Mega Pidgeot doesn't win, then I can definitely see this one winning.
Dragon Dance Arcanine: This one's fairly interesting. Intimidate can easily create the opportunity to set up a Dragon Dance, and with Close Combat, Crunch, Extreme Speed, and Wild Charge as coverage options, it can be damn hard to wall Arcanine. Plus, being a Fire-type means immunity to burns, so you can set up on Will-O-Wisp users fairly easily. I see the comparisons to Mega Charizard X, and I can see why people would choose him over Arcanine, since he has better overall stats and Tough Claws. However, Arcanine make up for those with better coverage moves, Extreme Speed, and Intimidate to better wall physical attackers while setting up, not to mention not costing the team its Mega Slot. Not my favorite, but I wouldn't call it bad.
Volt Switch Reuniclus: I can see some value in this one. With Regenerator giving Reuniclus back some health and such low Speed allowing your teammate to switch in without having to take a hit, this would be extremely annoying to deal with. This, combined with a respectable base 125 Special Attack, means that Reuniclus is going to maintain offensive momentum, and powerful momentum, too. Sadly, no STAB on it mans that it won't be THAT powerful, but Volt Switch is meant to keep offensive momentum, so that's a moot point. A good Theorymon overall, but the first two choices are very tempting.
Contrary Pangoro: This is kind of a weird idea, but it has some promise. With moves like Superpower and Hammer Arm to boost his stats, as well as perfect neutral coverage with Knock Off and Gunk Shot backing them up, Pangoro could easily become a huge threat if given the chance. The problem, however, is getting the momentum to begin with, and while he has decent bulk, he has easily exploitable weaknesses in Flying- and Fairy-type moves. Pangoro also has terrible Speed, so Choice Scarf users would easily get the jump on him. But if you can get it to work, you could easily clean house late game. Also giving Intimidate, Defog, and Sticky Web users the bird would be hilarious. If Mega Pidgeot doesn't win, then I can definitely see this one winning.
Dragon Dance Arcanine: This one's fairly interesting. Intimidate can easily create the opportunity to set up a Dragon Dance, and with Close Combat, Crunch, Extreme Speed, and Wild Charge as coverage options, it can be damn hard to wall Arcanine. Plus, being a Fire-type means immunity to burns, so you can set up on Will-O-Wisp users fairly easily. I see the comparisons to Mega Charizard X, and I can see why people would choose him over Arcanine, since he has better overall stats and Tough Claws. However, Arcanine make up for those with better coverage moves, Extreme Speed, and Intimidate to better wall physical attackers while setting up, not to mention not costing the team its Mega Slot. Not my favorite, but I wouldn't call it bad.
Volt Switch Reuniclus: I can see some value in this one. With Regenerator giving Reuniclus back some health and such low Speed allowing your teammate to switch in without having to take a hit, this would be extremely annoying to deal with. This, combined with a respectable base 125 Special Attack, means that Reuniclus is going to maintain offensive momentum, and powerful momentum, too. Sadly, no STAB on it mans that it won't be THAT powerful, but Volt Switch is meant to keep offensive momentum, so that's a moot point. A good Theorymon overall, but the first two choices are very tempting.
Pivot move + Regenerator is amazing on anything even remotely bulky that gets it, so Volt Switch + Regenerator + Assault Vest on Reuniclus is going to be a phenomenal combination. With such a set, Reuniclus would have the ability to check or counter Pokemon such as Keldeo, Latios Latias, Thundurus, Mega Lopunny, Mega Sceptile, Landorus, Mega Manectric, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Venusaur, and Mega Diancie, while serving as one of the best pivots in the game. This is easily the most significant buff out of this batch. If Tornadus-T can make for a decent special tank with 80 / 90 special bulk and the mediocre Flying-type, then Reuniclus is going to be even better.
Contrary Pangoro is also very interesting. Superpower + Knock Off + Ice Punch + Gunk Shot is a very mean wallbreaker, and the fact that it fucks you up no matter what Pokemon you send in as long as it's slower makes it a nightmare for defensive teams. I guess Mega Sableye is a big roadblock, but it's not the hardest Pokemon to wear down, and it still needs to scout Pangoro's moveset first, because Scrappy exists, so Pangoro can grab a few Superpower boosts in the meantime. With max Speed Pangoro can outpeed most defensive Pokemon, and most fast Pokemon struggle to switch into it, so Pangoro can be effective against both balance and stall.
Dragon Dance on Arcanine is ok but nothing special, because Charizard X is still superior in most cases, though Arcanine doesn't take up a MEvo slot and has Intimidate + Extremespeed, making it a potential deadly cleaner and giving it easy set up chances.
Finally, Focus Blast on Mega Pidgeor is going to be really great, but nothing out of the ordinary. Just another fast special attacker with great coverage that gets walled by specially bulky Pokemon. Big improvement but really bland, so i don't really like it, although all of us would have liked GF to have given this move to the first early-game bird ever.
Contrary Pangoro is also very interesting. Superpower + Knock Off + Ice Punch + Gunk Shot is a very mean wallbreaker, and the fact that it fucks you up no matter what Pokemon you send in as long as it's slower makes it a nightmare for defensive teams. I guess Mega Sableye is a big roadblock, but it's not the hardest Pokemon to wear down, and it still needs to scout Pangoro's moveset first, because Scrappy exists, so Pangoro can grab a few Superpower boosts in the meantime. With max Speed Pangoro can outpeed most defensive Pokemon, and most fast Pokemon struggle to switch into it, so Pangoro can be effective against both balance and stall.
Dragon Dance on Arcanine is ok but nothing special, because Charizard X is still superior in most cases, though Arcanine doesn't take up a MEvo slot and has Intimidate + Extremespeed, making it a potential deadly cleaner and giving it easy set up chances.
Finally, Focus Blast on Mega Pidgeor is going to be really great, but nothing out of the ordinary. Just another fast special attacker with great coverage that gets walled by specially bulky Pokemon. Big improvement but really bland, so i don't really like it, although all of us would have liked GF to have given this move to the first early-game bird ever.
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