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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
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    Let us discuss Jirachi, because I actually find it the best S rank candidate in the A+ rank at the moment, and I shall try describing some of it's strengths and weaknesses.

    [​IMG]

    Discussable S-Rank: Jirachi.

    First, I would like to start by showing you guys the B/W smogon analysis overview of Jirachi as a pokemon and its overall strengths and weaknesses:
    Yes, Jirachi is powerful and few things can successfully stop it completely. Not only does it not require much or any support from teammates, it can also provide support through Wish and Thunder Wave. It also has the move U-turn to preserve offensive momentum. I think all that can be said for Jirachi as a whole has been said, so lets move deeper into it's different sets it can use.

    Here are a few notable sets that Jirachi uses well :]


    Set #1: ParaFlinch / Specially Defensive
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
    Calm Nature
    ~ Iron Head
    ~ Body Slam / Thunder / Thunder Wave
    ~ Wish
    ~ Protect / U-turn / Stealth Rock


    Pros and Cons of ParaFlinch / Specially Defensive Jirachi (open)
    Jirachi is mostly known for it's capabilities as an annoying paraflincher that makes people quit the game. This method consists of running Thunder Wave / Body Slam to paralyze the opponent, and then spamming Iron Head. This combination has a ~70% chance to immobilize the opponent, effectively giving you completely free damage. In the first slashed move slot, we have the Body Slam / Thunder / Thunder Wave slot. Body Slam is good for paralyzing ground types and getting a little bit damage whilst paralyzing (60% chance). Under rain, Thunder is usually the best choice, as it provides good coverage whilst maintaining the 60 percent paralysis chance. Thunder Wave is good if you want to paralyze things 100% of the time. With a bit of luck, you are effectively wearing down your opponent whilst healing 6% each turn without being touched. Running a specially defensive spread will also help wall a lot of pokemon like Lati@s, Gengar and at least check every special attacker there is (maybe not Specs Keldeo in rain :|) through paralyzing them. This set does not only work as a Specially defensive wall, an annoying piece of shit, but also provides massive Wish support (202 HP Wishes). My personal favorite Rachi set :^D The cons of this set are of course that 1) EQ frickin hurts, 2) Other physical attacks hurt too and 3) Defensive Ground types wall the shit out of it.



    Set #2: Sub+CM

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 100 Def / 156 Spe
    Timid Nature
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Calm Mind
    ~ Thunder / Thunderbolt
    ~ Psyshock / Flash Cannon / Water Pulse


    Pros and Cons of Sub+CM Jirachi (open)
    Sub+CM Jirachi is is used for sweeping rather than walling and supporting. This set works by far the best in rain, as it 1) allows Thunder to reach 100% accuracy 2) Removes the Fire weakness, therefore leaving it only weak to Ground and 3) Powers up the Water Pulse that you may or may not like to use. Substitute and Calm Mind work extremely well together, which is also why many other pokemon like to use it. If you Sub up on a status move or on a forced switch, you get to get up a free Calm Mind. This will allow you to take hits very well on both defensive stats, as this set runs some Defense EVs and Max HP. When you can set up a Substitute whilst the opponent fails to take out the bulky Substitute, it's basically good game. This all seems extremely handy, which it of course is, but there are a few Cons of this set. The thing is, this Jirachi doesn't naturally fit teams Synergy wise as SpD rachi. This is because it is a sweeper that doesn't really need support, neither does it support. Sure, it is very handy on balanced teams, but if you are going stall, use SpD rachi, and if you are using HyperOffense, use Superachi (next set).



    Set #3: Superachi

    Jirachi @ Life Orb
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    ~ Calm Mind
    ~ Psychic / Flash Cannon
    ~ Grass Knot / Thunderbolt
    ~ Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ground

    Pros and Cons of Superachi (open)
    Smogon tells this tale 10 times better than i ever will so here you go:

    This set, a mainstay from the fourth generation, is a full-out offensive Calm Mind sweeper. It only needs 1-2 boosts to sweep, which is a massive advantage over other Calm Mind sets, and has space for an extra coverage move. All that's needed is a few Pokemon out of the way and then Jirachi can sweep. Because of this, it can be run on practically any offensive team. This set has two variants: one with Psychic, Grass Knot, and Hidden Power Fire, and one with Flash Cannon, Thunderbolt, and Hidden Power Ground. The first one boasts the hard-hitting Psychic to hit Fighting-types, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and a number of other threats hard, as well as the ability to break Gastrodon with Grass Knot. Grass Knot hits most other Water-types as well, including Jellicent, Slowbro, Gastrodon, and Starmie, as well as Tyranitar. Hidden Power Fire hits, naturally, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory, and other Steel-types. The second variant boasts the great neutral coverage of Flash Cannon and the ability to OHKO Heatran. Thunderbolt retains coverage on Jellicent, Slowbro, Starmie, Skarmory, and Forretress. Picking which variant to use is determined on what support you're willing to provide.


    Set #4: Choice Scarf

    Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
    252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant / Jolly Nature
    ~ Iron Head
    ~ Ice Punch
    ~ U-turn / Fire Punch
    ~ Trick / Healing Wish

    Pros and Cons of Scarfed Jirachi (open)
    Did you guys know that I am a lazy person? Have another Smogon Analysis :]

    This set is particularly good at revenge killing Dragon-types. Jirachi is much bulkier than the average Choice Scarf user and has numerous resistances, which allows it to switch into a number of attacks. This set's biggest flaw is its lack of power; base 100 Attack simply doesn't always cut it, so Jirachi is easily walled and set up on. Regardless of its lack of power, Jirachi is still an amazing Choice Scarf user. Iron Head's high flinch rate allows Jirachi to hax its way past numerous opponents, and it is very useful for picking off weakened foes. The first coverage move of choice is Ice Punch because it hits Celebi, Gliscor, Dragonite, and many others for super effective damage. The third slot is a choice between two options; U-turn allows Jirachi to scout to obtain better match-ups and Fire Punch hits Ferrothorn for good damage. The other choice on this set is which non-attacking move to use. Trick can cripple walls, most notably Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Chansey, Blissey, and bulky Water-types (such as Jellicent and Slowbro), and can mess up slower sweepers, such as offensive Trick Room Reuniclus. Crippling these Pokemon makes it easy for a teammate to set up. On the other hand, Healing Wish makes Jirachi an amazing supporter; once it has extended its usefulness, Jirachi can revitalize a crippled teammate, which gives this option tons of merit.


    Jirachi has a good ability, a good typing, versatile and good stats all across the board, and it is simply a monster in the OU metagame. I don't know if it really is S-Rank worthy, but I do believe so myself. This said, I wrote this so you guys would start debating about Jirachi, as it is a decent discussion. I shall leave you with a final quote from the smogon OU Jirachi Analysis :^D btw, oh look my 50th post lol :^D
  2. namehtmas

    namehtmas i have seen a sheepish wonder
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    Lucario wins if it runs Bullet Punch though. Lucario's moveset may be rather standard but it still has a way of dealing with most things. Since it's a late game sweeper, it's perfectly OK to expect teammates to help pick up what it can't cover. I'd probably say it's the best physical late game sweeper right now, which warrants A- because it can sometimes be difficult to set up and it's pretty reliant on teammates. However, it's the best at its job.
  3. superstar

    superstar

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    Sad to see Dragonite down in A-minus rank....remember when he was the best sweeper in the game in BW1?

    Anyways, I thought I'd chime in on Lucario. Saying Terrakion is a check is laughable, Lucario should be running CC/SD/ES/Bullet Punch except when your team has very specific needs, since Crunch is really only good for Jellicent and Slowbro, and Ice Punch only hits Gliscor and Landorus-T. I've found a good offensive core with Lucario is Band Tar + Gothetelle. The former can severely dent Jellicent and Celebi while the later easily traps and kills Landorus-T and Gliscor.

    With Stealth Rock up, and Lucario at +2, here are your options for beating Bullet Punch Lucario -- taking a hit and KOing back -- assuming they switch in on Swords Dance.

    In OU, it's Jellicent, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Conkeldurr, Fast Jirachi, Scarved Steel-types, Reuniclus, and Gyarados, not to mention all the stuff that can get knocked down to very low health and take you out, like Hippowdon, or UU mons like Chandelure, Slowbro, Victini, or Mew.

    You get my point when you see that a whole lotta stuff can either outspeed, take an ESpeed and KO back, or take a Close Combat and KO back. Definitely has more checks than Keldeo. Granted, most of these guys are taking 50% from your attack (not Jellicent though), but I'd say it's a fair trade on the opponent's part.

    tl;dr Lucario is fine in B+ rank, great end-game sweeper/wall breaker but stuff has to be weakened a ton for it to sweep, it's hindered by the common presence of Jellicent, Garchomp, and Landorus-T
  4. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    I don't, because it never was. A- is fine for Dragonite.

    Stopped reading here.

    Either Crunch or Ice punch is mandatory over the extremely situational (and weak) Bullet Punch, else Lucario gets walled by most ghost and flying types.
    Bullet Punch is an option over Extremspeed, not over Crunch or Ice Punch.
  5. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Certified Lumberjack
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    Everything in this comment is false. Dragonite was easily the most feared BW1 sweeper after the ban of Deoxys-S. There was a point in time when Dragonite was suspected and found to be not broken. There is little doubt that Dragonite and Terrakion were the most powerful sweepers in OU before BW2 came out.

    And what are you talking about? You didn't even read the rest of that guys post. If you had, you'd know that he actually agrees with Lucario in B+ rank. Anyway, no Lucario doesn't need Crunch or Ice Punch at all. Bullet Punch is great for sweeping offensive teams that pack things like Gengar, ScarfTar, or Terrakion. You should never use Bullet Punch over Extremespeed since it's weaker and hits fewer things. Lucario needs to pick its poison. Either Ground Types, Bulky Ghost/Psychics, or offensive threats. But any of the options is completely viable.
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  6. superstar

    superstar

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    You obviously didn't play BW1 then, Dragonite was easily the best setup sweeper in the game, especially back when Excadrill could spin for him. He's A- now, obviously.

    Bullet Punch: You beat Terrakion and Gengar and ScarfTar
    Ice Punch: You beat KINDA SLOW Gliscor and SLOW Landorus-T (and 252 HP Dragonite above 70%, I guess)
    Crunch: You beat Jellicent and Slowbro

    You can beat any set of these, you get to pick. I think Terrakion and Gengar are more valuable threats to hit than Jellicent or Gliscor based on usage, but that's just me. lol getting rid of Extremespeed, have you ever even tried Lucario out, most flying types are murdered by him.
  7. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    for the record i always run sd/cc/bp/espeed since ohkoing terrakion is a must (#3 in usage last i checked). never get rid of espeed that's plain stupid, without espeed lucario would just be another hitmonchan or whatever
  8. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Im surprised jirachi inst S-Rank already. Extremely versatile and capable of paralysing and flinching each of its counters to death or setup on them with calm mind, jirachi is an excellent pokemon in BW2. Its excellent bulk and type allow it to check several threats such as tornadus, alakazam, kyurem-b, latios among others. It can also setup with its sub calm set on defensive pokemons like ferrothorn, forretress and bulk waters. I definitely support it for S-Rank
  9. Vemane

    Vemane

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    I don't like jirachi (enough for s)

    It was better in torn t era
    It relies on hax which means 40%/30%/whatever you will get screwed (focus blast, people)
    Can't take boosted water attacks like a good special wall should
  10. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest I Love Goomy
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    I think Azelf could make it to Low B-Rank, maybe even mid. He's an awesome SR lead with his amazing Speed and Taunt, allowing him to set up SR quickly while Taunting shit, hence preventing them from getting their own hazards up or setting up. Azelf also has Thunderbolt+Fire Blast to nail Xatu on the switch while hurting Ferrothorn and Forretress. Deoxys-D leaving is pretty big too, so Azelf has less competition in his role as a SR setter. He can also serve as a Dual Screens setter if you need those, and is good at that. His offensive stats are pretty awesome and he can also take on the role as a special attacker, and hits pretty hard in general. But anyways, I think Azelf is a good asset to offensive teams and probably deserves Low B-Rank.

    I'm torn on Jirachi, but leaning towards keeping Lucario in B. He's kinda disappointing without Espeed and is frail as hell, but he's still pretty damn deadly, making him suitable for Top B at least.

    Btw, a point I brought up earlier:

    So yeah, Scolipede for C-Rank.
  11. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    It's more stupid getting hard walled by Jellicent, Gliscor and Landorus-T, who have extremely different counters and are likely to be around even during lategame, when Lucario is, you know, supposed to set up.
    Lucario needs to cover at least one of them with either Crunch or Ice Punch.

    By saying that Lucario has to run Bullet Punch for Terrakion you're just confirming that it needs a significant amount of support not to get walled by some of the most common and sturdiest walls in OU.
  12. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    I think Lucario offers enough reward to be considered above B-Rank. Priority spam is still viable because of the faster pace of the metagame, what with Terrakion and Gengar being more popular, and as for the three Luke counters you mentioned in Jellicent, Scor and Lando-T (Lando-I's lack of Intimidate could put it at risk of E-Speed), I immediately see that Kyurem-B wrecks their shit, and can lure Steels for Luke to seize its much talked-about "golden setup opportunity". I wouldn't really say Luke needs a ton of support, all he needs is for his checks/counters to be weakened and a setup opportunity (harder to do, yes) to clean up. This can be said for a majority of sweepers in general, but considering most of these are in A or S Rank anyway I don't really see why Lucario cannot join their ranks. Keep in mind that its priority is still useful outside of SD, keeping frailer threats at bay.
  13. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
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    I definately do not agree with you when you say that it "relies on hax". You wont "get screwed" 30 percent of the time, as Jirachi has very good natural bulk with the usual max HP. Also, this entire post is only focusing on a single set, which makes your angle a pretty narrow perception of the pokemon, considering the fact that Jirachi can run many different sets effectively. With the amount of versatility Jirachi can bestow to many different types of teams, focusing on a single set just isn't gonna cut it :|
  14. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Jirachi has:
    a) A great movepool
    b) Versatility
    c) A great typing with few weaknesses(two, who can be easily countered)
    d) Balanced Stats
    Which other mons fit that kind of role?Metagross(my fav) who finds it hard sweeping in the speed-based meta, Haxorus(always underrated but that's seperate) amongst a select list of few mons.
    Jirachi deserves S-rank because it poses both a defensive threat as well as an offensive threat to opposing teams while carrying versatility that lets it run surprise sets.

    People might rant at me for this, but I'm nominating Terrakion for A+. Honestly, I find Terrakion one of the most overrated mons ever. Agreed, it's fast. Agreed it's got good coverage. But just because people are too lazy to look to the lower tiers to find counters, it shouldn't be S-rank.
    Can Terrakion honestly do that? It needs a counter to Ghost types who wall it to no end. It needs a counter to any Mach Punch user with decent attack. It needs a counter to any water/grass type that just happens to outspeed it or a water/grass type that has priority. It needs a counter to any Psychic type with decent bulk and resists to STABs.
    Come on guys, Terrakion can sweep but it needs a hell lot of team support.
  15. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Certified Lumberjack
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    Nope, Banded Terrakion can 2HKO all of OU except for Landorus-T. the minimum amount of damage Banded Terrakion can deal is 37.38 - 44.14% to Cresselia. That's still a huge chunk of health. And aside from Landorus-T, most of Terrakion's counters are huge liabilities in the rest of the OU metagame. Golurk's one niche is countering Terrakion, and outside of that it's dead weight. Also, this is only one set. Terrakion can also run a lead Stealth Rock set, a Scarf set, Sub Salac set, a Double Dance set, and an All-Out Attacker set in addition to Band. It's funny how easily Terrakion can rip through its counters consdering things like Landorus-T don't have any reliable recovery and can't take more than two Stone Edges. He's definitely worthy of S rank.
    Jaiho likes this.
  16. superstar

    superstar

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    I'm still not sold on Scolipede. I'd rather use Custap Forretress for the Spikes/TSpikes role, since I think it does so more reliably. The being said, I do think it has a niche as a fast Spiker that can beat taunters Forry loses to, so I'd be fine putting it in C-Rank

    I'm really torn on Terrakion. It doesn't have a single spammable STAB like Keldeo does, so it is hard to argue its choice sets are S-Rank since they rely on 50-50 SE/CC predictions a lot. (I don't see any Choiced Terrakions ever). It's SR lead set is very good, but not really enough to make it S-Rank. SubSalac is solid, but priority users can be tough to take out.

    However, Ghost-types walling it? Jellicent and Gengar sure don't do that. Conkeldurr, Breloom, and Scizor are on a lot of teams, but they sure as hell can't switch into Terrakion. Most water and grass types don't like taking a Stone Edge (Celebi and Gyarados) or Close Combat (everything else) either. Finally, the two most viable Psychic types, Celebi and Alakazam, take a ton from Stone Edge or even Close Combat. Golurk and Claydol are essentially inviable, and are dead weight when your opponent lacks a Terrakion.

    I don't think Terrakion is as good as Keldeo, Landorus, or Politoed, but I think it's definitely a cut above the Latis, Garchomp, etc. I think S-Rank is a good place for it.
  17. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    You are understimating CombatEdge coverage backed by 129 Attack. You 2HKO (at worst) all but one Pokemon in OU. Period. There are 6 Pokemon who are not 2HKOd by Choice Band Terrakion, and the only one in OU relies on Intimidate to sponge the hit.

    Golurk, Nidoqueen, and Tangrowth have no business being in OU outside of stuffing Terrakion. Cresselia is slightly more excusable, but reaching into RU (or BL2) to find a counter to one Pokemon is only evidence of how insanely powerful he is. Slowbro has a niche AS A PHYSICAL FIGHTING-TYPE COUNTER. That is literally what Slowbro does and it's like asking why Latios is OU when SpDef Jirachi takes paltry amounts from even Specs Draco Meteor. Landorus-T is self-explanatory, I'm not spending any more time on it.

    Ghosts wall Terrakion? You realize Golurk is the only Ghost outside of Ubers who is not 2HKOd by Choice Band Stone Edge, right? Because PDef Jellicent is 2HKOd by Choice Band Stone Edge. SpDef Jellicent is OHKOd after Rocks and a little prior damage. Jellicent can stomach ONE Stone Edge and try to cripple with Will-O-Wisp or Scald. If either doesn't take (and Stone Edge doesn't miss, but Stone Edge has a better chance to hit than Will-O-Wisp or Scald burning), then your "wall" was just crushed. Weakness to Mach Punch/Bullet Punch and weakness to all the boosted Water attacks is keeping Terrakion out of Ubers, not reason to drop him from S. Terrakion IS the team support. Need Dragonite to sweep but Skarmory won't go away? Stone Edge 2HKOs. SpDef Jirachi got your Latios feeling down? Close Combat 2HKOs. Landorus-T preventing Lucario from sweeping? Oh, that's cool, Close Combat and Stone Edge have such incredible synergy that the last two slots are free, so Terrakion's got Hidden Power Ice that 2HKOs after Rocks with a Naive nature.
  18. ciaranroy

    ciaranroy

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    I think Terrak is better than Keldeo. I think Keldeo should be A+ Rank. It's counters are just too common, rendering it dead weight too much of the time. It basically needs Pursuit support to pull off a sweep most of the time. It's STABs aren't great and it gets walled by Celebi, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Gyarados, Toxicroak and Dragonite (maybe more). It can use Hidden Powers to get past certain threats, but it will still be invariably walled by something. I find it far too easy to counter to warrant S Rank.
  19. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    HP Ice? I have never seen a Terrakion in my time playing BW running HP Ice. 72 base SpA is so terrible that it can barely 2HKO Landorus-T with HP Ice. I think you're thinking of Mienshao? It has a MUCH more usable special attack stat then Terrakion, and can properly abuse use it to use Hidden Power Ice or Grass Knot. You should never run HP Ice on Terrakion, period. Waste of a moveslot.
  20. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    Why would HP Ice be a wasted moveslot? Between Stone Edge and Close Combat, Terrakion can run whatever. Why do you think so many Terrakion's run both Stone Edge and Rock Slide? Terrakion's versatility is to the point that he can run basically whatever the hell he wants in those last two moveslots, and if they eliminate or severely damage his checks, then all the better.
  21. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Ok I just need to sort out everything since these ranking threads (the discussion, not the actual rankings, PK's doing an astounding job). First of all I was looking for a quote that Lavos said before when it came to Breloom's potential promotion to S-Rank but I couldn't find it. It goes something along the lines of "We are going back to Deo-D again, 4MSS isn't a good thing" That sums up what people are saying about Terrakion.

    First off Tangrowth and Slowbro can shove off X-Scissors unless its CB (even then I think it doesn't get 2HKOed after Lefties, I'll put all the calcs in the end) as it barely does more damage than a non-SE Stone Edge. Terrakion is a LOT worse than Keldeo now as it basically has a more severe case of what ciaranroy said when it comes to being too easy to counter. There are multiple occasions in teambuilding that you can easily just get ~3 checks to Terrakion without even taking it into too much consideration. Let's say I have a team around KelTarLando (probably the 2nd most common teams to see in comp. play). Won't you look at that, I already have a (probably) scarfer to check CB Terrakion and speed tie with opp scarf terrakion, a lure for CC so Lando gets free setup. To continue to elaborate on that, most of these teams will probably pack a Celebi, Jirachi, or Landorus-Therian (It's not even that uncommon to pack all three). If Jirachi is scarfed it revenges CB Terrakion, Celebi can take switch into CCs and forces Terrakion to rely on SE's accuracy or odd prediction with X-Scissor, which subsequently leads to Landorus setup, unless it has X-Scissor without a choice set, which is dumb. and lastly Landorus-Therian is there as easily the most viable Terrakion check. Sand Offense teams even tend to carry Scizor or Rotom-W, who even though they don't really check Terrakion (scizor does), is something Terrakion doesn't appreciate. Rain Offense isn't really as kind to it as Tentacruel can stop some CC's while Ferrothorn stops the SE's. Even then they are revenged by Scarf Keldeo given proper speed tie or Politoed at Full HP. Scarf Terrakion doesn't really have enough power to muscle through FerroCruel anyway. The idea that Terrakion isn't really threatening much team matchup-wise (an essence of BW2 OU) also shows in the Smogon Tour usage stats by kd24.

    That actually makes me remember that Latios also fares well vs most Terrakion

    Yeah so as we can see, Terrakion really dropped here in usage due to having not really performing well against prevalent styles in the competitive scene. I also just wanna briefly go over sun, Dugtrio TRAPS it while Venu/Sawsbuck/Lilligant revenges it so that's not a great matchup as that's 50% of their offense (I also wanna point out that Scarf Gothitelle revenge kills it, but I'm not sure if I'm the only one who uses that in Sun).

    Now let's move on and see why Keldeo is so good. I think the magic rule that makes Keldeo really solid in this metagame is "what doesn't counter Keldeo is checked by Keldeo". I think that applies for 80% of the metagame now. Let's use these stats just as a quick example. The Keldeo checks we see here are Celebi, Latios, Latias, Amoongus, Chlorophyll sweepers, and Starmie. That I think sums up every single bit of what I see that truly counters Keldeo (Rotom-W and Alakazam are shaky at best). So let's see what that leaves by descending down on the usage and see if Keldeo checks them.


    [BOX]
    1.] Jirachi: --------- 44.74% (one of the few exceptions to my rule)
    2.] Landorus-T: ---- 31.58% (checked by Keldeo)
    3.] Politoed: -------- 28.95% (Politoed's existence actually HELPS Keldeo, Scarf Keldeo also revenge kills a majority of rain mons.)
    4.] Keldeo: --------- 27.63% (mirror)
    5.] Scizor: ---------- 27.63% (checked by Keldeo)
    6.] Rotom-W: ------- 26.32% (Shaky check)
    7.] Starmie: --------- 22.37%
    8.] Tyranitar: ------- 22.37% (Checked by keldeo)
    9.] Landorus: ------- 19.74% (Checked by keldeo before boost, you can't really say Lando beats Keldeo well either)
    10.] Garchomp: ------ 19.74% (Checked by keldeo)
    11.] Thundurus-T: --- 17.11% (Checked by keldeo)
    12.] Latias: ---------- 17.11%
    13.] Skarmory: ------- 17.11% (an odd exception, Brave Bird nails Keldeo on the switchin and such but Keldeo can easily muscle through skarm)
    14.] Forretress: ----- 14.47% (Checked by keldeo)
    15.] Kyurem-B: ------ 14.47% (Checked by keldeo)
    16.] Ferrothorn: ------ 15.79% (Checked by keldeo after a bit of prior damage)
    17] Latios: ---------- 14.47%
    18.] Heatran: -------- 13.16% (Checked by keldeo)
    19.] Gengar: ---------- 13.16% (Revenged killed by most Keldeo)
    20.] Dragonite: ------- 11.84% (Checked by keldeo)
    21.] Celebi: ---------- 11.84%
    22.] Ninetales: ------- 10.53% (Checked by keldeo sorta)
    23.] Breloom: -------- 10.53% (Checked by keldeo)
    24.] Hippowdon: ----- 10.53% (Checked by keldeo)
    25.] Alakazam: ------- 10.53%
    26.] Amoongus: ------ 9.21%
    27.] Venusaur: ------- 9.21%
    28.] Terrakion: ------- 9.21% (Checked by keldeo)
    [/BOX]

    From there we can see that Keldeo revenge kills 60.7% of relevant threats in the metagame with its SE coverage and speed, which is a great feat to have and is definitely S-Rank deserving. If that isn't enough, I'm just going to bring out a point that has been exhausted many times, which is the point of KelTar and other cores that can work with Keldeo. The thing about Keldeo's checks is that most of them are very exploitable, first of all the ones up in the tier list have trouble with Pursuit, which leads to KelTar being great, and there are a few other things that work here such as partnering decently with Thundurus-T+Scizor combo in rain teams. Another thing to look at is Keldeos amazing synergy with Signal Beam/Tbolt/Psyshock Gothitelle, who can trap a majority of Keldeo's checks. This shows that even the Pokemon that check Keldeo are easily exploitable with a few exceptions, which were primarily built JUST to beat Keldeo. To me, that definitely warrants an S-Rank.

    I think that justified Keldeo>Terrakion rather well, and if anything just showed why Terrakion should drop rather than Keldeo. Damn, that felt like one of those debate challenges in serenesforest
  22. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,432
    Because his special attacking stat is so bad! Although it's not a COMPLETE waste, I would much rather run Rock Slide/Earthquake or even Quick Attack on the fourth slot. Rock Slide is very useful for stressful situations when missing Stone Edge could lose you the game, such as a +1 Volcarona with Giga Drain, or a +1 Salamence. Earthquake is nice for Jirachi who can Wish stall Close Combat on Scarfed variants until it has enough defense drops to KO it with Iron Head. It's also nice for Tentacruel switch ins. Quick Attack is more useful on the banded sets, but can be really nice against opposing Breloom or weakened Choice Scarf Pokemon. So yeah, HP Ice isn't a complete waste, but Terrakion would much make better use of his fourth move slot with an extra bit of coverage or a backup STAB. HP Ice would always require a lot of prediction, since Landorus-T, Gliscor, or Garchomp could just OHKO back with EQ next turn. Overall, you'd have to be pretty ballzy to run HP Ice on Terrakion.
  23. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,432
    We're mostly arguing how it fares on his Choice sets, not sweeping set. Lol, Work Up.
  24. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    The above user said all that I wanted to use. I've seen a calculation that one user made a time ago that a boosted (CB, SD, etc) Stone Edge actually does more damage to Gliscor than Hidden Power Ice (this calculation was made on the BW1 era so I can't be sure that the same can be said to Landorus-T).

    Even Stealth Rock and Toxic are much more useful moves on choice sets, despite them being risky to use. The above user forgot to mention Sacred Sword (can bypass some Bulk Up and Curse abusers, although it is extremely situtional since Conkeldurr can use Mach Punch and CurseLax shouldn't be used; but it is also useful when Close Combat's defense drops are undesirable) and Double Kick (very weak but can be used to break substitutes).

    As for Jirachi, I am still in doubt if it is worth of S-Rank. I would agree for it becoming S-Rank if someone can address these points (yes I know that each set is excellent, please do not say that I am trying to make Jirachi seems worse than it is):


    1. The specially defensive set is excellent, but it cannot wall some of the most used special attackers on the metagame. They include Landorus, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, as well as other less used but still notable special attackers like Heatran and Volcarona. The specially defensive set also cannot take rain-boosted Water-type attacks from offensive Pokémon like Starmie.
    2. Both Calm Mind sets have a problem: coverage. The combination of Thunder(bolt) and Psyshock is walled by the Lati twins, Hydreigon, Celebi, Heatran and Tyranitar. The combination of Thunder(bolt) and Flash Cannon is walled by Electric-types, Heatran and Gastrodon. The combination of Thunder and Water Pulse is walled by Gastrodon and most Grass- and Dragon-types. Each of these threats can only be bypassed with multiple boosts.
    3. The Choice Scarf set cannot revenge kill Volcarona and can only revenge kill Pokémon like Salamence, Terrakion, and Landorus, if they do not have boosts. This set also has to use situtional moves like Zen Headbutt and ThunderPunch to revenge kill pokémon like Keldeo and Gyarados, respectively.
    Considering the aforementioned points, is Jirachi really worth of S-Rank?
  25. Kidogo

    Kidogo

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    461
    OK, 3 mons here: keldy, terra, and rachi.

    Keldeo is mostly worthy of S-rank imo. Rain essentially gives it base 200 SpA, meaning that in order to check it you have to be a very SpD mon very invested in SpD with a water resist and resist fighting. Really, not many mons do this. Sure, there are some good mons that beat it--lati@s, celebi, jellicent, etc.--but these generally have to be used specifically for this purpose as something like specstios is just gonna get 2HKOed after SR by scarfdeo's hpump in rain. There's a reason that SpDbi has been on the rise lately, and even that isn't safe given the possibility of hp bug. Overall, good offensive typing, great spammable STAB, essentially base 200 SpA for his main attack, decent defensive typing, the ability to be pseudo-mixed, and a variety of good sets mean S-tier. Not a whole lot of variety and his checks are viable for a lot of other stuff, so I could actually see A+ here.

    Terra is S-tier without a doubt in my mind. This thing has a TON of viable sets, and it is literally the standard for physical attackers this gen. Fantastic offensive coverage, incredibly spammable STABs, a huge huge huge number of viable sets, and no counters. Yes, NO counters. Tangrowth/slowbro are as close as it gets, but CB SE is still hitting super damn hard, and +2 rock gem SE has a 75% chance to OHKO slowbro after rocks. Meanwhile, stuff like gliscor and landy can handle it decently, sure, but they don't have reliable recovery (assuming gliscor lacks roost given 4MSS). So bandkion is gonna get past landy-t every match, since even with intimidate MAX DEFENSE landy-t is 3HKOed by SE disregarding lefties and SR. Basically, it can come in once to check it, and then terra will 2HKO it the next time it comes in and can sweep with CC afterwards. Terra also has a SR resist, meaning it can come in basically for free the majority of the time to repeat this process. A fantastic movepool is a huge advantage over keldeo--this thing gets like every set-up move it could ask for (bar DD or shell smash lol) and even great utlity moves such as substitute, quick attack, SR, and taunt. It even gets a SpD boost in sand, letting it survive stuff like keldeo's hpump 70% of the time. It has more viable sets than any other OU mon I can name (bar rachi itself perhaps), has perhaps one true counter in roost gliscor (non-existent), is incredibly versatile, fulfills a multitude of roles, and is easy to fit on a team. S for sure.

    Rachi is tricky, but I don't see it as S for a couple reasons. The first is that while it is very good in a lot of roles, it isn't THAT good in any of them. It never poses more than a medium offensive threat (I'd even argue that subCMrachi is more of a defensive threat that uses its defenses to boost). Add to this that it lacks what is emerging more and more as one of the most important hallmarks of a SpD wall--a water resist--and while it is perhaps the #1 special wall in OU, it really doesn't scream head-and-shoulders above the crowd to me. A great utility mon, but it's not really walling or sweeping whole teams, or wowing you with its prowess. A+ really seems like an appropriate place for this.
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