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Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.
We're mostly arguing how it fares on his Choice sets, not sweeping set. Lol, Work Up.
The above user said all that I wanted to use. I've seen a calculation that one user made a time ago that a boosted (CB, SD, etc) Stone Edge actually does more damage to Gliscor than Hidden Power Ice (this calculation was made on the BW1 era so I can't be sure that the same can be said to Landorus-T).
Even Stealth Rock and Toxic are much more useful moves on choice sets, despite them being risky to use. The above user forgot to mention Sacred Sword (can bypass some Bulk Up and Curse abusers, although it is extremely situtional since Conkeldurr can use Mach Punch and CurseLax shouldn't be used; but it is also useful when Close Combat's defense drops are undesirable) and Double Kick (very weak but can be used to break substitutes).
As for Jirachi, I am still in doubt if it is worth of S-Rank. I would agree for it becoming S-Rank if someone can address these points (yes I know that each set is excellent, please do not say that I am trying to make Jirachi seems worse than it is):
The specially defensive set is excellent, but it cannot wall some of the most used special attackers on the metagame. They include Landorus, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, as well as other less used but still notable special attackers like Heatran and Volcarona. The specially defensive set also cannot take rain-boosted Water-type attacks from offensive Pokémon like Starmie.
Both Calm Mind sets have a problem: coverage. The combination of Thunder(bolt) and Psyshock is walled by the Lati twins, Hydreigon, Celebi, Heatran and Tyranitar. The combination of Thunder(bolt) and Flash Cannon is walled by Electric-types, Heatran and Gastrodon. The combination of Thunder and Water Pulse is walled by Gastrodon and most Grass- and Dragon-types. Each of these threats can only be bypassed with multiple boosts.
The Choice Scarf set cannot revenge kill Volcarona and can only revenge kill Pokémon like Salamence, Terrakion, and Landorus, if they do not have boosts. This set also has to use situtional moves like Zen Headbutt and ThunderPunch to revenge kill pokémon like Keldeo and Gyarados, respectively.
Considering the aforementioned points, is Jirachi really worth of S-Rank?
OK, 3 mons here: keldy, terra, and rachi.
Keldeo is mostly worthy of S-rank imo. Rain essentially gives it base 200 SpA, meaning that in order to check it you have to be a very SpD mon very invested in SpD with a water resist and resist fighting. Really, not many mons do this. Sure, there are some good mons that beat it--lati@s, celebi, jellicent, etc.--but these generally have to be used specifically for this purpose as something like specstios is just gonna get 2HKOed after SR by scarfdeo's hpump in rain. There's a reason that SpDbi has been on the rise lately, and even that isn't safe given the possibility of hp bug. Overall, good offensive typing, great spammable STAB, essentially base 200 SpA for his main attack, decent defensive typing, the ability to be pseudo-mixed, and a variety of good sets mean S-tier. Not a whole lot of variety and his checks are viable for a lot of other stuff, so I could actually see A+ here.
Terra is S-tier without a doubt in my mind. This thing has a TON of viable sets, and it is literally the standard for physical attackers this gen. Fantastic offensive coverage, incredibly spammable STABs, a huge huge huge number of viable sets, and no counters. Yes, NO counters. Tangrowth/slowbro are as close as it gets, but CB SE is still hitting super damn hard, and +2 rock gem SE has a 75% chance to OHKO slowbro after rocks. Meanwhile, stuff like gliscor and landy can handle it decently, sure, but they don't have reliable recovery (assuming gliscor lacks roost given 4MSS). So bandkion is gonna get past landy-t every match, since even with intimidate MAX DEFENSE landy-t is 3HKOed by SE disregarding lefties and SR. Basically, it can come in once to check it, and then terra will 2HKO it the next time it comes in and can sweep with CC afterwards. Terra also has a SR resist, meaning it can come in basically for free the majority of the time to repeat this process. A fantastic movepool is a huge advantage over keldeo--this thing gets like every set-up move it could ask for (bar DD or shell smash lol) and even great utlity moves such as substitute, quick attack, SR, and taunt. It even gets a SpD boost in sand, letting it survive stuff like keldeo's hpump 70% of the time. It has more viable sets than any other OU mon I can name (bar rachi itself perhaps), has perhaps one true counter in roost gliscor (non-existent), is incredibly versatile, fulfills a multitude of roles, and is easy to fit on a team. S for sure.
Rachi is tricky, but I don't see it as S for a couple reasons. The first is that while it is very good in a lot of roles, it isn't THAT good in any of them. It never poses more than a medium offensive threat (I'd even argue that subCMrachi is more of a defensive threat that uses its defenses to boost). Add to this that it lacks what is emerging more and more as one of the most important hallmarks of a SpD wall--a water resist--and while it is perhaps the #1 special wall in OU, it really doesn't scream head-and-shoulders above the crowd to me. A great utility mon, but it's not really walling or sweeping whole teams, or wowing you with its prowess. A+ really seems like an appropriate place for this.
About the specially defensive set. Yes, not walling water types (like keldeo) is not very good, but if you are running Body Slam, Thundurus-T is not that big of a threat to Jirachi~
252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Jirachi: 123-145 (30.44 - 35.89%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
About the CM sets, then they both serve 2 different roles. The Sub+CM set is extremely bulky after a Calm Mind or 2 on both sides, so the point of that set is to make substitutes that fail to break, and then proceed to hit foes. It''s not that hard to get to +3 / +4 with this set, and it also beats anything in a Calm Mind war if you use Psyshock.
The point of the Superachi set is to get up usually a single Calm Mind and then shit on the opponents team, and trust me. This set has coverage for ya. There are 2 different coverage options you can use, both of which only have about 2-3 counters. You can read about it in the first reply i posted, under the Pros And Cons of the superachi set.
Now the Choice Scarf set. Most of the battle, the Choice Scarf set is to be used the following way: switch in on something that any Jirachi counters, take a small hit (with the many resistances of Steel / Psychic) and then click U-Turn for some lovely momentum. The other thing you can use it for, as you pointed out, is revenge killing. The third thing though, is spamming Iron Head. This set can also sometimes rely on hax, and hell, the odds are in your favor here too :^D But that aside, I do think that Scarf Jirachi is a bit meh myself, I just used it to point out how versatile of a pokemon that Jirachi is :]
Wait, wait, WHAT???
Terrakion is S-rank... but SCIZOR is A+???
How in the world does that make sense at all? Scizor sees the most usage on all teams, is CLEARLY the king of OU, has been dominating the metagame for a long time and it's A+?
Nominating Scizor for S-Rank
Scizor has everything needed to be S-rank. The only TRUE counters to Scizor are Jellicent, Gyarados and Heatran. Even these mons can't completely counter Scizor because he can U-turn out for a Volt-switch user(for Jellicent and Gyarados) or for Politoed(Heatran), meaning Scizor is VERY difficult to counter.
Scizor may be very good at what he does, but his odd coverage, putting aside the fact that he's usually Choice-locked, means a myriad of dangerous threats can set up on him. Such threats include Keldeo, Volcarona, Forretress, Landorus-T, Thundurus-T, Tentacruel, Skarmory....even Heatran, Magnezone and Lucario can take advantage of Choiced Bullet Punch. All of these threats can become very dangerous after just a single turn of setup or a free turn in general, and Scizor can't keep U-Turn spamming forever because there will be times you'll go for Bullet Punch/Pursuit, the main reason you chose Scizor in the first place. Scizor is still fantastic, but his tendency to grant free setup turns for common opponents keeps him out of S imo.
P.S. Usage does not reflect viability in the direct sense.
Further nominating Mew for A-
Seriously? I have no clue why this mon is so underrated.
It is ONE mon who has NO hard counter. Literally, none. Because any mon who tries to counter one set has to deal with a 100 other possible sets.'
This mon is SOOO versatile and yet it gets TERRIBLE usage.
Just have a look at Mew's movepool.
With the right usage, Mew has the ability to go S-rank, let alone A-rank. Just as Celebi has been steadily coming up the ranks, equally so Mew should too.
You think Jellicent counters it? Say hello to Shadow Ball.
Hydreigon drives it crazy? Aura Sphere should do the trick
Need a counter to Scizor? Pack a set with Fire Blast, that should do the trick.
Facing issues with Keldeo? STAB Psychic of 100 SpA means not much of an issue any longer.
The list goes on and on. Hell, ANY pokemon in OU can be countered by Mew with the right set, that's how good it is.
Which is why it should AT LEAST go to A-, if not to S(in the future once people start using it properly).
While it's true that Mew has that fantastic movepool, it's niche as a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none means it is outclassed in nearly every role. Jirachi has a far better typing and is a better support pokemon. The lati twins have better bulk (latias) and better offense (latios) and base 100 stats across the board along with poor psychic typing mean that mew just doesn't cut it in OU, there are far better options for nearly every viable role.
Mew is fine where it is.
Nominating Alakazam for A+.
Possibly the best revenge killer in OU, it can basically cover any weakness a team may have with certain mons. Weakness to Scizor? HP Fire. Weakness to dragons and Landorus? HP Ice. Weakness to Terrakion and Keldeo? Psyshock. Weakness to Celebi? Signal Beam. The list goes on. It's basically a catch-all revenge killer with Focus Sash and can easily clean weakened teams. It's power and speed are astonishing, and its versatile movepool means it can cover many threats. It's criminal that's in A- at the moment. It's amazing ability means it can come in several times throughout a match and switch out with no punishment. If I could think of any problems, its that its slightly lacking in power without a Life Orb, although its Special Attack is the second highest in OU (only behind Thundurus-T). It should be a top 10 Poke in my opinion.
It has a glaring problem in that it is not only completely useless in front of Jirachi and Blissey, but they are also not easily exploitable pokemon.
If it could survive a resisted breloom mach punch at +2, then I would say it has enough bulk to be considered "bulky enough" for OU, its lack of ability to take ANY physical hit and most special hits really holds it back.
but the number one thing holding it back is relying on a 90 power single STAB.. and a 120 power but 70 accuracy coverage move..
I'd rather have a pokemon with 115 SpAtk but more powerful STAB and two of them :)
edit: What I typed above probably sounds like I don't think 'Zam should be OU, on the contrary its excellent, I just don't see it as a first class OU pokemon like... Heatran for example (who is undeniably the best pokemon since gen 4 :P)
^^ speaking of which, heatran isn't A+? I am surprised to say the least... Would make an argument but not bothered atm and my arguments for gastro in B got ignored -.-
Alakazam isn't A+ because it is really good at what it does but it actually can do its job only once when Focus Sash is broken it becomes extremely mediocre due to shitty bulk, horrible typing and mediocre coverage moves. I mean thanks to Focus sash+Magic guard it can revenge kill nearly everything wich is absolutly awesome, but thats just it other revenge killers like Scarf keldeo/Terrakion/Latios/Salamence can not only revenge kill but are also awesome late game cleaners due to their good high Powerd stab moves and useful defensive typings. So while Alakazams niche is unique and extremely useful it still has competition and quite enough flaws to hold it back from being A+.
Heatran isn't A+, because of Rain thats pretty much it it is a great Pokemon but Rain really holds it back from being more than a fantastic offensive pivot that can set rocks (although the Sunny Day set can be extremely nasty).
Actually, Blissey is 2HKOd by Psyshock after Srealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes (not that difficult to get up if you run Custap Skarmory).
252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 267-315 (40.95 - 48.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
Sure, it can't get past Jirachi, but every Pokemon has counters. Hell, Keldeo's are in double figures. Just because it has one counter doesn't mean it can't be in A+. You then go on to mention Heatran, who might as well have one STAB as Flash Cannon is pretty useless.
Sure, it also can't switch in on Breloom, but its a revenge killer. Can Mamoswine switch in on a +2 Outrage from Garchomp? Can Scizor switch in on a +2 Close Combat from Terrakion? If it remains at full health, and has a Focus Sash, it can revenge pretty much anything. Did I mention its a great status absorber? It doesn't care about a burn or Toxic since it does no damage to it. It can also switch in on a Leech Seed.
Also, I don't think Heatran is worthy of A+. It loses to all 4 of the S Rank mons and its only good STAB is neutered by the common rain. What exactly is it stopping these days? Sure, it matches up well against Sun teams, but Dugtrio destroys it. Volcarona can run HP Ground. Scizor runs Superpower. Kyurem-B can run Earth Power. It's still a great mon, but its worn down far too easily and loses to too many high rankers to be good enough for A+.
Do not forget to say that there is one thing that Alakazam is not guaranteed to revenge kill: Volcarona. Alakazam is only guaranteed to OHKO it with Psyshock after Stealth Rock damage, but you should not assume that Stealth Rock will always be up on the opponent's side, and if Volcarona has one Quiver Dance, Alakazam will lose.
It may be a good revenge killer, but I disagree that it is the best. Alakazam can revenge kill almost everything, but only if its Focus Sash is intact. Once it is not, Alakazam will lose to almost every Pokémon faster than it or packing priority. Alakazam also cannot switch on anything.
DUDE. Usage does not play any role in this ranking, as this thread only takes viability into account. What you are saying is, that if everyone used a Pikachu on their team, and it had like, 25% usage, it should be S-Rank. I hope that isn't what you think :I
Besides, as other may have pointed out, a Choice locked Scizor is just setup bait for so many things. Also, I think the counter list is a liiiittle bit larger than your's. Jellicent, Gyarados, Heatran, Volcarona, Forretress, Landorus-T, Gliscor and Hippowdon all wall it extremely well.
Yes, but thanks to U-Turn, Scizor can get the correct counter for these Pokemon as they switch in. For instance, vs Gyarados Scizor can get in Rotom-W who Volt Switches out again to beat Gyarados OR gain momentum vs a switch to Rotom-W.
Choice locked Scizor is, but LO Scizor is plain deadly.
STAB U-Turn is why Scizor should be S-rank.
Scizor should not be S-Rank for these reasons:
Too many pokémon resist Scizor's STAB combination. Fire-types, Steel-types (except Jirachi and Ferrothorn, but they can still take U-Turn without too much problems), Keldeo, Gyarados, Jellicent, Thundurus-T and Tentacruel.
Scizor has a painful weakness to Fire-type attacks, and they are very common despite rain; and due to Scizor's mediocre Special Defense, rain cannot prevent Scizor dying from most Fire-type attacks.
Although Scizor's only weakness is to Fire-type attacks, it also has problems with neutral attacks. Keldeo can OHKO it with Hydro Pump if boosted by Choice Specs or rain. Landorus leave a big dent with Earthquake or Earth Power. Scizor also cannot take repeated Close Combats from Terrakion.
Scizor can gain momentum but if there are entry hazards on its side of field, it cannot switch in as repeatedly as you would want to. For example, Stealth Rock limits it to 8 switch-ins, and that is not considering that it will be taking damage from other sources.
Alakazam is A+ to me. Sure it dies to anything and everything, but guaranteed focus sash with immunity to all passive damage makes it a superb revenge killer. 135 base SpA hits hard, and it has the moves to take down most common threats. It's not meant to take hits, neither is any other revenge killer.
Yes, but at least other revenge killers CAN take hits, even if they are not meant to. For example, Keldeo can take Ice-type attacks, weaker Water-type attacks, Fire-type attacks (especially under rain, but not under sun unless they are non-STABed), and can even take Scizor's STABs. Terrakion can take most non-super-effective special attacks under sandstorm. The underrated Scarf Landorus-I can take some U-Turns and Close Combats, and is even immune to Thunder(bolt) and Earthquake. Same about Thundurus-T. Latios can take most Water-type, Fire-type and Fighting-type attacks with ease.
What Alakazam can take? One or other Psychic maybe, but that is it. This means that it relies heavily on Focus Sash to survive. Alakazam would surely like to be free to use Life Orb to hit even harder than it already hit.
By this logic, Volcarona should be S-Rank. Plus, it has MUCH better STABs than the steel bug does.
I run an offensive Volcarona w/ QD/Psychic/Bug Buzz/Fire Blast, and the only thing that resists all 3 coverage moves is Heatran.
Physically defensive Gastrodon and Swampert can LOL at both Scizor and Rotom Wash. Gastro can stall out Tommy with Toxic, and Scald Scizor.
Zam is not A+ or in my opinion, even A. Break the sash (which is easy as everything runs pokemon that can take a hit and hit back, the priority to hell and back).
STAB U-Turn is certainly a plus for Scizor, but not enough to push it into S-Rank. Before its ban, Genesect was able to utilise this well due to better speed and more importantly Flame-Bolt-Beam coverage that prevented it from becoming easy set up foder.
Scirzor's average speed and merely acceptable bulk means that going for U-Turn is not always the safest move either. Life Orb does not change the fact that the majority of pokemon I've already listed in Keldeo, Landorus-T, Thundurus-T, Gyarados (forgot him :P), Tentacruel, Volcarona, Forretress, Skarmory, Jellicent....have little difficulty in simply going about their business as Scizor struggles to damage them. Even Swords Dance would only help against slower bulkier opponents (bar Tenta's Scald and what not). This easily exploitable flaw is the biggest thing keeping Scizor out of S-Rank.
OK, I'm going to push for Mew here(A-) since I did already nominate it for A-.
Every mon has a counter, shaky or hard. Except this mon.
Mew literally has NO counters. With EVERY type covered in it's movepool, it is literally unbeatable(in theory, in practice, most people if they use it use the standard set and are thus punished by the standard counters for not exercising creativity).
The only reason Mew ISN'T S-Rank is because it has 100 Speed, meaning mons like Gengar that outspeed can beat it, although 100/100/100 defenses are nothing to scoff at.
First off, your opponent has no clue whether to put in a Physical Wall or a Special Wall because, with both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot in it's movepool, you never really know.
Even worse, with a potential Baton Pass, the opponent has to be always offensive, allowing you to exercise a degree of prediction to your advantage.
How many people actually know that Mew gets BOTH U-turn as well as Volt Switch? That makes it a GREAT asset on VoltTurn teams.
With such a diverse movepool, balanced stats across the board, bulk on both special and physical sides to take a hit or two and the sheer unpredictability that means you never know whether your switch-in to Mew is safe or not, it has to be AT LEAST A-, if not A and one day maybe S-Rank.
As a physical sweeper, outclassed by Terrakion, Kyurem-B, Garchomp, Dnite, Lando-I in Sand, etc. These pokes have either great typing, good bulk, speed, great STABs, or a massive power boost in Sandstorm.
Special sweeper is outclassed by Gengar, Celebi, Latios, Jirachi, Keldeo, Dragonite in the rain, Volcarona, etc. These pokes have great typing, resists common priority, good speed, good bulk, excellent STABs, learns both Hurricane AND Thunder, which has downright excellent coverage (the only OU common mon that resists both is Magnezone and Magneton).
Physical wall is inferior to Lando-T, Hippowdown, Skarm etc
Special wall outclassed by Jirachi, Celebi (ESPECIALLY CELEBI), Jellicent, etc
The only good thing Mew can do is BP.
Offensive variants struggle against TTar. With 184 HP Evs, neutral natured TTar in Sandstorm can survive Aura Sphere and have a 12.5% chance to KO with Crunch/Pursuit, or get get bulkier with more HP EVs, and run LO, to always OHKO w/ Crunch
Mew just is a jack of all trades, master of NONE
If anyone here has used Alakazam, they'll know that it is far better in practice than on paper. The thing is, once its sash is broken, it can still switch out without fear of entry hazard damage. This means it can sweep teams without priority or faster pokemon while at 1 HP. Any team without either of these are practically already dead. Alakazam basically guarantees a kill a game. Honestly, there is no better glue for offensive teams in OU right now than Alakazam.
On Mew, just because a Pokemon can't be countered doesn't make it A or S worthy. Hydreigon and Salamence are impossible to counter, but they aren't in S (Hydreigon isn't even in A). Just because they don't know what you could be running doesn't mean that they can't wall it. It doesn't matter what they're running, no Mew wants to take a Draco Meteor or a Hydro Pump or a Stone Edge. There are so many prevalent threats faster than it that it has trouble staying alive. It's beaten by priority too. It's just so outclassed in every role that there's no real point in using it.
Although I think the stallbreaker Mew set gets less credit that it deserves, I agree that Mew isn't suitable for A rank. The problem isn't that it isn't good; it has a lot going for it, but it's just so damn hard to fit into a team these days because it doesn't offer many specific roles in a team that isn't done better by something else (for example - Jirachi, Celebi and Latias check/counter a number of OU's most dangerous threats, whereas Mew doesn't really have the same resistances to offer). It's one of those "cool" 'mons that you rarely get to utilise because your team building principles prevent you from deviating from what is tried-and-true.
I have to agree with Heracross in B rank. I mentioned it previously but was shot down. It can be a great status absorber with Guts, and a Sleep Talk set with Guts is certainly viable with how common Breloom is. It's also quite easy to snowball Moxie boosts, and with its great STABs its hard to wall. While Landorus-T does wall it to hell and back, its still very effective in use.