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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. ciaranroy

    ciaranroy

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    I disagree strongly on the first point. Kyurem-B should rarely be used as a primarily physical dragon. It is by far and way the best mixed sweeper in OU. Even if it is outclassed somewhat physically by Garchomp and Dragonite, neither have as much capability to go mixed as Kyurem-B. Factor in Kyurem-B's wall worthy bulk and it becomes near impossible to take down, especially behind a sub. I do agree Dragonite should be A at least, but Kyurem-B more than deserves its A+.

    I agree with Gothitelle. It's just weak as shit. Anything that needs to boost as soon as it traps something just doesn't seem worth using. I can't really see any advantages it might have over Magnezone, Dugtrio or Wobbuffet. It's slow and weak, and it is fairly bulky, but its not switching into Terrakions Stone Edges or Keldeo's Hydro Pumps any time soon. Not to mention the less than stellar typing.
  2. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    The deal with gothitelle is, its a team specific pokemon. The moves, stat spread and nature for your gothitelle depends on what your team needs. Need to kill steel types? HP fire. Need to kill fighting types? Psyshock. Need to kill water types? Thunderbolt. Need to kill ground types? HP ice. Having trouble with celebi? Signal beam. And so on. The ev spread can be changed to either a bulkier one to better deal with stuff that outspeed you regardless like scarf terrakion or to a faster one to outspeed some walls like celebi. Gothitelle is not a pokémon you can just throw in a team. It needs to be used to deal with specific threats. Its really niche but the same can be said about almost everything in B-Rank. Keep it there.
  3. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
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    Having used Weavile a lot, i can say without a doubt that although it has a fantastic niche as a revenge killer and trapper, nearly every well constructed team has a solid counter to it. Scizor and Keldeo are extremely common, and can switch into any attack Weavile dishes out, and u-turn out for momentum in the case of scizor or fire off insanely strong STABs in Keldeo's case. Used correctly, weavile is excellent in its role and others have already listed the amount of pokemon it beats 1v1. SR weakness and common counters mean that it should stay in B-
  4. DoABarrelRoll

    DoABarrelRoll

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    Weavile should be B rank, maybe even B+. Stop saying Mamoswine outclasses it, because it's not true. Sure Mamo and Weavile both have Ice Shard, and Mamo might have higher attack and earthquake, but it doesn't have Pursuit and Low Kick. Mamo can't beat Terrakion, Starmie, Gengar, Celebi or Jellicent. Pretty much all of Weavile's counters beat Mamo too(Scizor - Bullet Punch, Keldeo, Conkeldurr - Mach Punch, Volcarona(which isn't even a counter to weavile), all bulky waters, 100% Breloom who can take an Ice Shard).
    Weavile is one of the most anti-metagame Pokemon and is really underrated.
  5. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    Kyurem-B is definitely A+ material. It's perhaps the most difficult thing for stall to deal with right now, whether its simply rampaging through everything with CB Outrage or using its impressive mixed capabilities to break down the common stall cores. I find myself having to use weird shit like Scarf Jirachi and even Scizor in order to make viable stall teams these days. However all of its flaws (vulnerability to priority, average Speed, SR weakness etc) keep it out of S rank.
  6. vyomov

    vyomov

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    I agree, Weavile is REALLY underrated.
    Firstly, Weavile's speed makes it much better as a sweeper than Mamoswine
    Weavile's Dark STAB also means it can pursuit trap a lot of stuff
    Lastly, Weavile has SD, meaning it can sweep unprepared teams post SD.
    This is why it should be B+
  7. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer it's a skorupi egg
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    No, I do not think Weavile is that good of a sweeper like you say

    Firstly, Weavile is extremely frail and that cannot be overstated. Almost any form of priority will bring it to extremely low HP. The fact that it's weak to every form of entry hazard, uses Life Orb and with Sand's prevalence, means that Weavile is worn down far too easily, especially when so many things threaten and forces it to switch if it predicts wrongly. Weavile suffering from minor 4MSS exacerbates this -- it needs to run Pursuit and Ice Shard for its niche, if it doesn't run Night Slash its walled of the opponent doesn't switch, if it doesn't run Brick Break then Steels screw it up and if it doesn't run Swords Dance its power isn't enough. Its attack stat is good but it misses out on OHKOs most of the time. Weavile's low bulk essentially means KO or be KOd. This forces it to switch out more often on anything that walls it, or is bulky enough to take hits. It can't even run choice band sets effectively as it will be played around too easily, and it can't set up Swords Dance effectively because it will be hard pressed to find time to set up since powerful resisted hits still take a chunk off it. Finally, the large amount of priority in the metagame -- look at Dragonite, Lucario, Conkeldurr, Scizor, etc. -- means that Weavile will often be killed before it does its job.

    What I meant was that as an Ice Shard revenger, its outclassed by Mamo and as a Pursuit trapper is outclassed by Scizor and Ttar, all of which can survive a hit and retaliate. Weavile is like a jack of two trades but master of none kind of guy.
  8. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    Weavile is good if you need something that can both revenge kill Dragons and trap Psychics. It is outclassed in each of those individual roles.
  9. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Higher speed makes it a better Pursuit trapper than either Tyranitar or Scizor.
    If anything it's those two who need to worry about surviving a hit from Psychic/Ghost types if they decide to stay in.
    Weavile on the other hand doesn't have to worry abut fast threats like Gengar, Latios and Starmie because they're all slower.
  10. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Completely agree.
    A fine example of a mon that Weavile beats best is Latios: BOTH Pursuit Trapped as WELL as Revenge killing it.
  11. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    Whereas scarftar just...traps and revenge-kills it guaranteed and can easily live any attack, so it just pursuits and doesnt have to win the 50/50. Seriously guys, weavile has a niche, yes. But that doesn't actually mean it's viable. Ninjask has a niche as a speed boost passer (nothing comes close in efficiency), but it's still completely inviable in OU (except on absolute BP teams, which are very rare) for a multitude of reasons (SR, frailness, no offensive/defensive presence, horrible defensive typing). Yes, weavile can use both ice shard and pursuit--but not very well for either, its only niche is having access to BOTH of those which honestly isn't that big of a deal. If I have a DDnite problem I'll just use mamo, if I have a lati@s problem I'll use ttar. If I have both? Unlikely, but fine I'll use mamo and ttar, they work well together and I'd rather have two great mons filling slots than basically a wasted slot. Yes, weavile combines two roles into one but does nothing else, and performs those roles much worse than other things that can fill those slots.

    Higher speed does not make it a better pursuit-trapper than ttar, for example--weavile cannot OHKO anything with pursuit, so it must night slash/ice punch or predict the switch and pursuit, making it come down to a 50/50. If you predict wrong, they either get away or take a hit and KO weavile (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 198-234 (65.78 - 77.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock). Using latios for the moment, ttar simply does not have this problem--bandtar OHKOs (252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 266-314 (88.37 - 104.31%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) and can easily take any kind of hit, while scarftar 2HKOs with pursuit and again lives any hit (while if you want to you can go for the crunch, which OHKOs--you don't need to though, since you live a hit).
    Tl;dr, weavile is outclassed as a pursuiter and an ice sharder. While it does combine these roles, it is inferior at both and is not worth the teamslot. Is weavile ever going to be viable on a competitive team? Yes, but very very rarely--you have to need both those roles in one slot and not mind a poke that is frail, SR-weak, has bad coverage, and is fairly weak overall. Sometimes it will be true, but not often. Belongs in B-.
  12. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 212-252 (81.22 - 96.55%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 224-266 (74.41 - 88.37%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 244-291 (93.12 - 111.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    Weavile traps OHKOs Starmie and Latios most of the time whether they stay in or not with CB and it doesn't even need it for Gengar. Don't like being locked into Pursuit? Dark Gem is a perfectly viable option because if Weavile traps and OHKOs something with Pursuit without fail it has done its job. It can still OHKO 4x ice weak dragons with Ice Shard even without an item boost, assuming SR is up.

    Dark Gem also allows Weavile to bluff a CB set after it revenge killed something with Ice Shard, only to bait stuff like Jellicent and...

    252 Atk Dark Gem Weavile Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 414-488 (102.47 - 120.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Tyranitar and Scizor are completely ruined if they get burned from Starmie's Scald or if they get hit by HP Fire (in Scizor's case) or a water attack (in Tyranitar's case, unless it's at full health).
    Assuming Gengar doesn't have a Substitute up, Tyranitar risks a OHKO form Focus Blast and Scizor needs to gamble with a 50% chance of guessing right between BP or Pursuit, while Weavile simply clicks Pursuit and Gengar goes down regardless. Funny how you mention how Weavile's Pursuit is a 50% gamble but you fail to mention this when it comes to Scizor vs Gengar confrontations, something Weavile has absolutely no isssues with.

    Securing OHKOs against these 3 threats alone much more reliable than Scizor and Tyranitar can ever dream of gives Weavile an important niche. B+ is where it belongs.
  13. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    The way you put it, that makes Weavile seem more C-Rank to me. Not that I would disagree with that; everything you said is true. Way back when, Weavile's best calling was on Deo-D Hyper Offense teams, where it could be partnered with Gengar in order to deal with troublesome rapid spinners (read: Starmie) and also revenging Tornadus-T. Back then, it was really good. But now Torn-T and Deo-D are gone, and I don't find Weavile still having that strong a niche anymore.
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf Thank you all guys!
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    Excuse me but did you just say that Weavile isn't viable? Here are some team types where Weavile works perfectly and no other Pokemon can do what it does:


    • Hazard stacking HO teams with Gengar. Gengar beats Forre and Tenta, and Weavile traps and beats the only spinner that Gengar can't, Starmie. It also provides with valuable priority for the likes of Thundurus-T, Landorus, and Salamence, while also being able to revenge kill a ton of unboosted offensive threats. Of 'course if you are using Weavile you should pack Scizor and Keldeo checks, but they won't be able to switch in more than once anyway due to entry hazards.

    • Rain teams that want Water resists and Keldeo checks such as Lati@s, Celebi, and Starmie eliminated. Scizor can't trap Baton Pass Celebi, is OHKOed by offensive Starmie, risks getting burned by defensive Starmie, and is less reliable than Weavile at taking down Lati@s as it has to take a hit first.

    So here you go, two common team archetypes in which Weavile is a very viable pick. If Pokemon such as Espeon and Haxorus are in B rank then Weavile is surely worth of this sub-rank as well, and is definitely one of the best Pokemon there.

    Not that i agree that Pokemon such as Haxorus, Espeon, Xatu, and Ditto should be there instead of B- or C+, but this is another discussion for another time.
  15. Meru

    Meru i'm like down
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    I think Dark Gem Weavile is actually a really good idea. It makes sure that it doesn't have to rely on 50/50 predictions, and gives it longevity without LO eating away at it. Shame Weavile is UU and thus can't be used for OU Next Best Things otherwise I'd totally suggest it.

    I still think it's B- though. It has horrible longevity with SR, Spikes, and Sandstorm constantly eating away at it. And unlike the other four SR+Spike weak pokemon in OU (Cloyster, Kyurem-B, Ninetales, and Volcarona), it doesn't have ridiculous firepower (or in Ninetales' case, a shit ton of team support) to make up for it.
  16. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    @alexwolf, you misinterpreted what I was saying. All I was saying is that having a niche doesn't automatically make you viable. Weavile happens to be somewhat viable on exactly the team archetypes you mentioned. My point was just that you can't simply say, nothing else does exactly what it does, therefore it should alwayds be considered (i.e. niche = viability). Read my tl;dr para, and I'm saying p much exactly what you stated--weavile is absolutely viable on teams that have the VERY SPECIFIC needs for the roles it can play (like trapping starmie AND revenging dragons, or trapping BP celebi on a rain team). These are rare enough and weavile is mediocre enough even in these situations that he's not hugely viable, but you're right, there are situations in which he is a good option which is why I'd rank him as high as B-. And honestly, I'd consider C, but for the kinds of examples alexwolf mentioned. B- seems fine to me.
  17. Reymedy

    Reymedy Colt Python 357 Magnum.
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    I tried that long time ago, and that's not a good idea. Mainly because teams using Weavile (weatherless HO most of the time) need Ice Shard to be as effective as possible. Same goes for Low Kick.
    The extra bump you get on a Pursuit does not worth the loss of power for Heatran, for Venusaur, Breloom, Ferro...
    You'll also never never bluff a CB set, and the cases in which Dark Gem is genuinely useful are so rare. It's just pure theorymon, I'm pretty sure that anybody who would try it for real would prefer a LO, a CB or even an EBelt.
  18. Vemane

    Vemane

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    This exactly. In the era of deoxys-d days when deo+gar+weavile was such a popular combo, dark gem had a niche in being able to almost fully guarentee its job of eliminating spinblockers. But now weavile's job is more so as a utility, and so it needs power on all of its moves
  19. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    You do realize that suicide Custap Berry + Sturdy leads such as Skarmory or Forretress are functionally identical to Deoxys-D, right?
    Dark Gem Weavile is still useful for teams with such leads since they can't afford losing their entry hazards. So that niche is still valuable.

    Either way, the point is that whether Weavile is running Dark Gem or CB it does have the ability to ensure key KO's.
  20. Lavos Spawn

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    what...yo the guy's point is that weavile can hit deo-d super effective with its stabs and that's part of what made dark gem so effective in that era. yea lead forry/skarm do basically the same thing as deo-d but unlike the latter they can take on weavile all day and rack up hazards so i have literally zero idea what you're talking about.
  21. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

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    I guess his point is that you can still use Weavile in a combo with Gengar+Custap lead to prevent spinning, however dedicating half your team just to prevent hazards from getting spinned away is questionable especially since these Pokemon don't exactly have great synergie.
  22. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn a e s t h e t i c
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    o alright from here it sounded like he was saying weavile could take on skarm and forry like it took on deo-d. though yeah i agree the synergy between weavile and gengar isn't great plus you're now dedicating half your team to just keeping entry hazards up...better to just run a solid bulky offense than that shaky kind of ho
  23. Reymedy

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    Nope, even in that era wasn't so good. Weavile role never been only to Pursuit or you rather have something else.
    If you wanted to make your point better, you could have talk about Tornadus-T who was present here (hence making the Gem less good since MANY players were playing Weavile just for him). But even in that era, it wasn't worthy.
    And I don't know why people believe this core was so "popular". I laddered with it long time ago, and even after my RMT, there wasn't that much Weavile+Gar+Deo teams.

    You are ignoring an important point. Weavile is used in HO weatherless teams (because no Ttar) most of the time. What is the bane of these teams : Sun teams.
    How to beat a Venusaur for those teams ? A crazy Scarfer, a random Hail put somewhere, or strong priorities.... and the only SE one is Ice Shard. Lowering Ice Shard power by 15 points on a classic Venusaur which is just huge. Same goes for many other crucial pokemons that I mentionned.
    I bet, just missing this 0HKO on Heatran or the 2HKO on Ferrothorn will make you sick. Hell, you don't even OHKO Terrakion or Garchomp without the LO lmao.
    But I encourage everybody to try it and see if it works or not as I'm pretty confident about my experience here.

    PS : Iirc, I talked about Dark Gem on my own RMT (the first one featuring this core :nerd:, and the only legit one).
  24. TUO

    TUO

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    Alright I just wanna make things quick over here. All of you guys are arguing on Weavile's viability due to it's potential 50-50 failure to do it's job and its competition against Mamoswine. However, there is one thing all of you have to admit, Weavile has a well established niche that can be very helpful in a multitude of cases. There are quite a few times where you can justify Weavile's use over Mamoswine and actually gives offensive utility which is a lot greater (at least imo) than most Pokemon in C Rank and often finds a home in more teams than C-rank mons do. However, there is absolutely no reason Weavile should be above B-. All the flaws mention in its ability to do its job is a huge detriment and the fact that there are instances that you need to win a 50-50 prediction just so you can execute what Weavile is supposed to do is a large problem that lets it not stay anywhere above B-. Also, it seems that right now, the arbitrary description I see in the B- Rank is for Pokemon that have 100% established niches in the metagame, which is exactly what Weavile is. To summarize, Weavile is a Pokemon that fills a niche on teams that a good amount of teams can use, but its unreliability in some cases to do such job is a detriment from making it a great Pokemon. Nontheless, the usefulness of such niche keeps it in B-. I would understand if Weavile was in C though, just don't go around calling it inviable.

    Here is another team that I have used it in, it's rather unorthodox and I should probably be running U-Turn Landorus but its another team that justifies Weavile's use on a team
  25. vyomov

    vyomov

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    OK, so I'd like to compare Tyranitar to Weavile to illustrate why Weavile should be B+:
    1) Speed: Here Weavile tops, no question, which is massive because it can outspeed and OHKO Terrakion:
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 354-416 (109.25 - 128.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    2) Coverage: Again here, Weavile tops because frankly speaking Ice is a better secondary STAB than Rock simply because of the coverage it gets on Dragons.
    3) Attack stat: Here Tyranitar is better with 134 attack as opposed to 120 attack
    4) Bulk: It is this stat that makes Ttar better than Weavile. Weavile is frail as hell while Ttar can tank a hit and OHKO, a big advantage
    5) Weakness to SR: Another reason why Ttar is better than Weavile
    6) Sand Stream: This helps Ttar wall Special attackers, whereas Pressure just kind of sucks in the competitive environment

    However, as one can see, while Ttar is certainly the bulkier mon and thus better as a whole, Weavile sweeps better because of it's amazing speed and better coverage. Considering Ttar is A+, it's perfectly reasonable to leave Weavile EXACTLY a rank below it: B+.
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