1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Trainer Au

    Trainer Au Insert custom title here

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2012
    Messages:
    269
    Yea with the set he posted it isn't, but I believe he was saying it has the potential to outspeed thund-t since you don't need to fun Aura Sphere, but Aura Sphere is one of the reasons Raikou is cool because it won't miss.
  2. Meru

    Meru
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2005
    Messages:
    976
    Not to mention that unlike Thundurus-T and Jolteon, Raikou caves to Dugtrio.

    I can't see the dog being any higher than D-rank.
  3. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,380
    The only set I can really see Raikou running in OU that somewhat sets it apart from Jolteon and Thundurus-T, is its Calm Mind set. After a few boosts, Raikou becomes pretty threatening, and can be quite a pain to take out. It has decent coverage with T-bolt / HP Ice / Aura Sphere while also having the possibility of using Weather Ball on a rain or sun team to fire off a powerful base 100 move. Other then that though, I'd MUCH rather be using Nasty Plot Thundurus-T, or Choice Specs/Life Orb Jolteon. Thundurus-T is so much more threatening after a boost, doesn't have to run Rash in order to use a coveraging move, and its movepool isn't nearly as bland. Jolteon is also MUCH faster, while still packing similar power to Raikou anyway. Raikou is okay, but heavily outclassed. D-Rank sounds fine I guess. I really don't see why you'd be using it though.
  4. TaBuu

    TaBuu

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    I've used Raikou CM before when the therians were everywhere. Honestly it worked to a point. Raikou can tank off some Special hits (duh) really well but any Physical move coming his way is a weakened Raikou or a broken Sub. Honestly, Thundurus-T is so much more efficient at the job.
  5. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,933
    i'm fine with placing raikou in c-rank for the time being. it's a pokemon with truly great potential that for some reason finds itself not being used much at all in the current metagame. this is puzzling to me. raikou has many things going for it, including its blistering speed that allows it to outpace common pokemon like latios, keldeo, and landorus. it also possesses a movepool that happens to be just enough to allow it to act as a fearsome calm mind sweeper, which seems to be a niche all but forgotten in ou. the coverage provided by thunder(bolt) + hp ice + weather ball is rather good, especially under sun and rain, and one can also opt to use substitute to block status and make it incredibly easy to rack up multiple boosts. raikou may also run an excellent choice set, either as a powerful specs attacker or swift scarf revenge killer. either way, it does the job well, especially with access to volt switch in order to gain momentum. it does have a few noticeable faults, of course, including the lack of more coverage moves and raikou's overall physical frailty (though it's much better than, say, gengar in that regard). however, it it not difficult to recognize its shortcomings and its advantages over other fast special attackers at the same time, and understand that raikou is much more than it is currently made out to be.

    those who argue that aura sphere is necessary for raikou to be successful are fooling themselves. raikou is only hindered by the rash nature that accompanies aura sphere's presence, making the cm + 3 attacks or subcm sets much better options.
  6. ShootingStarmie

    ShootingStarmie
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,358
    I would have agreed with this statement in BW1. However, BW2 released so many new offensive threats that are bulky enough to live a +2 Espeed and OHKO in return. This list includes Garchomp, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Gengar, and Terrakion. While Terrakion and Gengar are OHKO'd by +2 Bullet Punch, it means it has to sacrifice Ice Punch or Crunch, leaving it walled by either Jellicent, Reuniclus, Mew, and bulky Psychic types in general, or Gliscor, Landorus-T, and bulky Ground types in general.

    Lucario also has less time to set up than in BW1. Terrakion isn't nearly as Choice Locked as it used to be (setting up on a Scarf Stone Edge), and the Metagame is just to offensive for Lucario to find a set up opportunity. The only common time it can really set up is on Banded Tyranitar, who is often paired with Lucario's best checks, Keldeo and Landorus-I.

    Priority is also a problem for Lucario, as Techniloom and Scizor are so popular. Now I know what you're thinking, "Lucario resists Bullet Punch!". You're right, but after taking SR damage, a hit while setting up (say Banded Tyranitars Crunch), and taking a Defence drop after Close Combat (as well as LO recoil), Scizor can revenge it. Banded Dnite also takes a chunk with Espeed, and I haven't even listed lesser used priority users, like Feraligator and Azumarill.

    However, there is one set that I feel is underrated in the current metagame. Agility Lucario. Stall is not as common in this current Metagame, so the power behind SD is pointless if you can't OHKO offensive threats. However, Agility Lucario doesn't worry about 4MSS, as it doesn't need to run Extreme Speed anymore. Close Combat OHKO's Keldeo and Terrakion, Ice Punch OHKO's Breloom, Landorus-I, and Garchomp, and Crunch OHKO's Gengar.

    Tl;dr. Lucario isn't as good as it used to be. Agility Lucario is good in this metagame. It's a B-rank Pokemon.
  7. Ehrmantraut

    Ehrmantraut

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Messages:
    54
    I find Porygon2 really out of place in C-Rank. phenomenal bulk w only 1 weakness so its easy to cover for, bulk goes far enough to survive attacks such as Kyurem-B's banded Outrage or Victini's V-Create. has not 1, not 2 but 3 great abilities and can run a variety of sets like Subcover, trick room, agility, boltbeam + HP fire, etc.

    flaws: no resistances/immunities besides the uncommon ghost attack and Kazam, Reuniclus and gengar all carry Focus Blast 99% of the time anyway, crippled by toxic.

    def should be low b-rank IMO.
  8. Takion

    Takion

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2012
    Messages:
    142
    I have to stop you there. +2 Extremespeed and Close combat kills Breloom and Scizor repsectively. Agility Lucario? Its no sense using it over a Rock Polish Terrakion. Priority isnt the problem for Lucario at all.

    After Stealth rocks? He takes 3% damage, double resisting it.
  9. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,122
    Rocks doesn't do much in the way of passive damage, but it does do something very important in breaking Focus Sash. Something to think about.
  10. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,380
    Of course, but more often then not Lucario is almost ALWAYS going to be running Life Orb. Without it, it misses out on important KOs with Close Combat and ES. Skarmory is never OHKOed by a +2 CC after Stealth Rock if Lucario isn't running Life Orb, and Breloom barely survives the +2 Extremespeed.
  11. ciaranroy

    ciaranroy

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    ShootinStarmie, (how do you quote?) you state that Lucario can set up on Banded TTar, which is often paired with Keldeo and Landorus, but if Lucario switches in on a Crunch, and then SDs, its at +3, and Keldeo and Landorus can no longer beat it, being OHKOd by ESpeed. Sure, you can say Terrakion does that as well, but it lacks strong priority and is still weak to Scizor. So really, Lucario is extremely difficult to revenge, because of +2 priority and its relative ease in setting up.
  12. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Messages:
    139
    I have actually constructed a team based on Swords Dance Pass Celebi. BP to Lucario, who gets +2 (potential SD boost), and Crucnch amkes me +3. TTar switches out, while Lucario uses Swords Dance (+5 speed). EVRYTHING WILL DIE.

    Even 252 HP/252 Def+ Gliscor is getting 2HKOed by Espeed and Close Combat. Even factoring Intimidate, Landorus Therian has a 12.5 chance to be OHKOed by Close Combat, near guaranteed after Stealth Rock.

    The only thing that can reliably beat +5 Lucario is Utility Jellicent, which is 3HKOed by Bullet Punch. Other than that, SD Lucario is extremely good when paired with SDPass Celebi
  13. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,303
    I would usually not recommend using Justified on Lucario, Inner Focus is a great ability and makes settting up on Jirachi and beating it alot easier and while i tried justified on Lucario i almost never got the boost just because Dark type attacks are pretty rare outside of Pursuit and when i got it i never really needed it anyway.

    Oh and you can quote a user by using the quote button that is in the lower right of a post or by using the qute tags that look like this [*QUOTE] [*/QUOTE] minus the *
  14. Alter

    Alter let me down easy
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    667
    Inner Focus is far more situational than Justified in my experience. While you mentioned that Jirachi can no longer flinch Luke, it can still paralyze it which hinders it drastically, halving its speed and causing it face the annoying 1/4 dice roll to move which will prevent it from sleeping. I wasn't around during Bw1 so I can't vouch for how good/bad Luke was back then but I think it's a nice late-game sweeper if it gets the chance to get up a SD. Its hidden moveset always leaves you a step behind when you won't know whether or not it'll Crunch your Jellicent or Ice Punch your Dragonite.
  15. Wizarus

    Wizarus

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    241
    Justified is just as situational. The only dark moves you're going to be hit with are Hydregion's Dark Pulse, TTar's Crunch, and maybe Weavile's Night Slash. Hydregion using DP is rare, TTar using Crunch while Lucario is on the opposing team instead of pursuit even more so, and Weavile's not even that common. And even it will be using pursuit more than Night Slash.
  16. ShootingStarmie

    ShootingStarmie
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,358
    +2 Espeed does not KO Scizor. Are you being serious? Yes Close Combat at +2 OHKOs, but like I said Bullet is still doing a butt load, regardless of whether it resists it or not. Terrakion is even weaker to priority than Lucario is, so no, it isn't outclassed. Lucario also has much better coverage than Terrakion, as Lucario can get past bulky Ground type like Glicsor and Garchomp, unlike Terrakion, with Ice Punch.

    Also, it doesn't matter if it only takes 3%, it's still taking damage, which is bad for such a frail Pokemon. Also, you haven't provided any argument as to why Lucario should be A rank, or do you agree with me about Lucario being a B rank Pokemon?

    Please bare in mind that Lucario is often paired up with Pokemon often weak to Dark type attacks, but Lucario shouldn't be switching into Tyranitar anyway, mainly because banded Crunch still hurts (like 30%? don't quote that), and after 2 Crunches plus a defence drop, Scizor will be able to revenge it with Bullet Punch. This also isn't facotoring in your opponent predicting the Lucario sweep and KOing it with Super Power, and it also isn't factoring any previous damage on Lucario. Lucario should be switching in after Tyranitar has Pursuit trapped something, like Gengar or Latios, forcing the switch, and setting up a Swords Dance at 97% health.

    And this has come from experience, not just thoerymoning. I based my first gen 5 team around SD Lucario, which peeked 2nd on the OU ladder on PS. I used it for over a year, and I know how good it is, but I also know Lucario most of the time has shortcomings.
  17. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,483
    If you've used Lucario as much as I have, you should know that it is much MUCH better than you're giving it credit for, and that it has a very easy time setting up. Also, you are most definitely theorymoning since you aren't actually providing calcs for the damages you're mentioning. Bullet Punch from Scizor does hurt, but it isn't even kind of a way for you to count on beating Lucario, as Banded Bullet Punch does between 38-45% to Lucario, which leaves you with about half health after Rocks and Life Orb. But then what? If you were relying on Scizor to revenge Lucario, then your team can't handle the remaining turns Lucario has to beat you. Plus, lets say you think Lucario is going to SD so you switch into Scizor, but actually it just goes straight for the Close Combat. You just took 72.88 - 85.71%, and Lucario can now guaranteed kill you with a non-boosted Extremespeed (16.03 - 19.24%, which at minimum is 100% assuming Rocks 12%+72%+16%=100%).

    Also, the way you talk about using Lucario is, in my opinion, wrong. Lucario shoudl be paired with something like Celebi or Espeon, which can BP as Tyranitar/Scizor Pursuits, thus giving him the +1 boost from Justified, and another from Swords Dance or simply attack the switchin with an insanely powerful Close Combat at +2 (or even at +0 assuming you didn't BP in Lucario). Honestly, everyone should be using the Bullet Punch+Extremespeed set, in my opinion. It demolishes offensive teams as seen in this battle I always show people when they doubt Lucario. That is how you're supposed to sweep with Lucario. I'm not even sure where I want Lucario, as I can see him easily being B+ or A-, but I just want to make sure people understand how amazing he is in practice.
    Jaiho likes this.
  18. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,380
    Yeah honestly anyone who doubts the effectiveness of SD Lucario in this metagame has obviously never used it. It's absolutely insane at +2, KOing pretty much everything that doesn't resist CC, and sometimes KOing things that do resist it. Extremespeed can also net some important KOs in Breloom, Tornadus, Thundurus-T, Starmie, Tornadus, Volcarona, and Scarfed Salamence after Stealth Rock. The list could go on, but other then Salamence, all of those KOs are achieved without rocks, and by E-Speed, which has higher priority then Mach Punch, Ice Shard, and Bullet Punch. Once Luc sets up, it's really hard to stop it from pretty much just mopping the floor with your team. 4th moveslot syndrome sucks, but you can tailor its moveset to best fit your needs.
  19. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Messages:
    139
    Like I said earlier, SDPass SpD Celebi can boost and BP to Lucario on predicted Crunch or Pursuti. Bam Lucario at +3. Ttar will be forced out in fear of CC so Lucario can SD AGAIN. +5 Attack now. Everything will scream in fear. +5 Bullet Punch and Extremespeed 2HKOs even the bulkiest physical walls. For example, the Offensive Pivot Lando-T is 2HKOed by Espeed and is basically in KO range for any attack if its hit by CC (factoring in intimidate, making +5 Lucario +4).

    Lucario i see as the the greatest threat in B+ rank or the lowest of A-.
  20. ShootingStarmie

    ShootingStarmie
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,358
    I never said that Scizor is the only way in beating Lucario, nor did I say it was a counter (seriously, who switches Scizor into a Lucario?), I said that priority really hurts Lucario, and if you really want me to prove that will calcs, so be it. You say Lucario should be paired up with Espeon or Celebi so that they can Baton Pass into Lucario, but if they've figured out that Celebi has Baton Pass (which is often, since it's used early game for gaining momentum), then your opponent is never going to use Pursuit on Celebi. So you Baton Pass into Lucario and take SR damage (97%), you take a Crunch from Tyranitar (70%). Now you either OHKO the Tyranitar, or set up a Swords Dance. Regardless of what you do, Scizor is going to be able to come in and revenge you.

    "252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Crunch vs 4HP/0Def Lucario (Neutral): 25% - 30% (73 - 87 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO."

    "252Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk)Bullet Punch vs 4HP/0Def -1 Lucario (Neutral): 38% - 45% (108 - 128 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO."

    But hey, I know this is very situational, and I know that not every team carries Scizor and Tyranitar (most do in this stale metagame, lol), but then where else does Lucario find a place to set up? I guess on -2 Lati@s? It's set up options are very limited in this metagame, and even if it does get to +2, Lucario often has it's sweep cut short by bulky Pokemon that outspeed him (I already listed loads in my original post, but for the sake of it...) Garchomp, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Scizor, Gengar, and Terrakion. And please don't give me that bullshit about Bullet Punch, just go read my original post.

    Also Gary, please read my original post, I list multiple Pokemon that can stop a +2 Lucario sweep.
  21. HUARGH

    HUARGH

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    155
    Vaporeon and Victini both in rank C is kind of strange to me, I feel both deserve B- or even just B. You really need quite some offensive power in order to bust through a rest/hydration Vaporeon in rain and this always isn't so easy due to most packing moves along the lines of wish, protect, toxic, ice beam and scald.

    Victini is a powerhouse under the sun, a choice banded V-create killing nearly everything - it also threatens the majority of weather users with its other attacks. V-create is an OHKO on every Ninetales and Abomasnow and bolt strike is a 2HKO on Politoed. Brick break and V-create both deal a lot of damage to 252hp/0def Tyranitar and CB V-create without sun is a clean 2HKO against 252/252+ hippowdon who in turn can never switch into a v-create because Victini is still faster, even after the first V-create (252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 259-306 (61.66 - 72.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).

    Victini does take 25% from stealth rock and enjoys having the sun up, which is why he should definitely not be too high - but its ability to threaten and outspeed enemy weather inducers as well as nearly OHKO'ing everything under the sun (excuse the pun) should really give him at least a B- and possible B rank - keep in mind that Ninetales arguably has the hardest time in keeping up weather, or at least compared to Politoed and T-tar/Hippow. Additionally, Victini resists psychic, ice and fire - 3 of Venusaur's weaknesses who is commonly seen on sun teams. Having physical fire type moves is also an advantage, as many physical walls have a weakness to fire (Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn...). Victini also has a guaranteed OHKO on 252/0 Dragonite after stealth rock with V-create, and OHKOs 252/252+ Gliscor with it as well.
  22. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,380
    Actually, Lucario finds it pretty easy to setup, as a lot of the metagame fears taking a Close Combat to the face. Ferrothorn, Celebi lacking Psychic, Forretress, Tyranitar, and Jirachi with proper prediction, are all easy setup fodder for Lucario.

    I think you need to remove this argument entirely. Lucario is ALWAYS going to KO Breloom at +2 with E-Speed before Breloom can even think about getting off a Mach Punch. Your Scizor argument is also pretty flawed as well. You ALWAYS assume that Lucario is going to set up on a Banded T-Tar? That's a huge assumption. Also, why are you throwing around ES from banded Nite? It does less then half, and even after that damage Lucario still has enough health to withstand recoil from Life Orb five times.

    Different variants of Lucario have problems with different Pokemon, which is why you give Lucario a move that covers a type that your team has trouble with the most. Also, all of the Pokemon you mention can withstand an E-Speed can also take a +2 Mach Punch from Breloom. Does this make Breloom B- material? Of course not. And don't tell me Spore is the ONLY reason Breloom isn't in B- rank, because that's far from the truth. Unlike Lucario, Breloom's STAB combination is commonly resisted, while Lucario can get around things like Landorus, Gliscor and Dragonite with Ice Punch. It's also MUCH faster then Adamant Breloom, which keeps it from having to rely on spamming priority moves against pretty much EVERYTHING, like Adamant Mamoswine or Timid Heatran for example.

    tl;dr You need to actually use Lucario instead of theorymon.
  23. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,122
    Victini is still C because of weather, more specifically rain. OBVIOUSLY you can run your own weather to keep Victini hitting hard with V-create, but winning the weather war is easier said than done. I wouldn't have any doubt in my mind that Victini and maybe even Darmanitan would be OU and B- or A-rank without Drizzle (hell, they wouldn't even need Drought), but that's only theorymon and doesn't apply to the metagame.

    I'm not entirely sure why Vaporeon's dropped in usage so much (probably because Jellicent is immune to Fighting-type attacks AND spinblocks) but I wouldn't be totally adverse to B-. She's still very difficult to OHKO without a boost and she passes absolutely massive Wishes.
  24. DoABarrelRoll

    DoABarrelRoll

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2011
    Messages:
    287
    Victini suits low B rank imo. While V-create is incredibly powerful (stronger than Kyurem-B's Outrage), rain is everywhere and T-tar gets a free switch-in, ready to pursuit poor Victini. Stealth Rock is also a huge pain for it. Victini, however, has the ability to destroy politoed and many abusers of rain with Bolt Strike, something not many fire-types can boast.

    I think bisharp should be C rank. It may lack the bulk to take a hit, but it can really surprise if it does manage to set up a Swords Dance. +2 LO Sucker Punch coming off 125 physical attack is nothing to scoff at. The problem is how do you set up that SD, though.
  25. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,261
    Bisharp could actually set up on the Steels that wall him thanks to Taunt though, which stops Skarmory's Whirlwind, Ferro's Leech Seed/Thunder Wave and Forretress's hazards.

    The other problem is that Sucker Punch can easily be worked around, and Bisharp relies on it more thanks to its low speed. Oh and it's complete musketeer bait: Keldeo resists both STABs while Terrakion abuses Justified boosts should you try a last ditch Sucker Punch. Bisharp also doesn't take Dragon attacks too well despite its typing, which is likely the main reason people shy away from Lucario, as most people don't want to pack a second Steel on their team just because their first one doesn't do the job at all.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)