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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. ciaranroy

    ciaranroy

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    ShootinStarmie, (how do you quote?) you state that Lucario can set up on Banded TTar, which is often paired with Keldeo and Landorus, but if Lucario switches in on a Crunch, and then SDs, its at +3, and Keldeo and Landorus can no longer beat it, being OHKOd by ESpeed. Sure, you can say Terrakion does that as well, but it lacks strong priority and is still weak to Scizor. So really, Lucario is extremely difficult to revenge, because of +2 priority and its relative ease in setting up.
  2. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    I have actually constructed a team based on Swords Dance Pass Celebi. BP to Lucario, who gets +2 (potential SD boost), and Crucnch amkes me +3. TTar switches out, while Lucario uses Swords Dance (+5 speed). EVRYTHING WILL DIE.

    Even 252 HP/252 Def+ Gliscor is getting 2HKOed by Espeed and Close Combat. Even factoring Intimidate, Landorus Therian has a 12.5 chance to be OHKOed by Close Combat, near guaranteed after Stealth Rock.

    The only thing that can reliably beat +5 Lucario is Utility Jellicent, which is 3HKOed by Bullet Punch. Other than that, SD Lucario is extremely good when paired with SDPass Celebi
  3. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

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    I would usually not recommend using Justified on Lucario, Inner Focus is a great ability and makes settting up on Jirachi and beating it alot easier and while i tried justified on Lucario i almost never got the boost just because Dark type attacks are pretty rare outside of Pursuit and when i got it i never really needed it anyway.

    Oh and you can quote a user by using the quote button that is in the lower right of a post or by using the qute tags that look like this [*QUOTE] [*/QUOTE] minus the *
  4. Alter

    Alter lions in her heart
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    Inner Focus is far more situational than Justified in my experience. While you mentioned that Jirachi can no longer flinch Luke, it can still paralyze it which hinders it drastically, halving its speed and causing it face the annoying 1/4 dice roll to move which will prevent it from sleeping. I wasn't around during Bw1 so I can't vouch for how good/bad Luke was back then but I think it's a nice late-game sweeper if it gets the chance to get up a SD. Its hidden moveset always leaves you a step behind when you won't know whether or not it'll Crunch your Jellicent or Ice Punch your Dragonite.
  5. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    Justified is just as situational. The only dark moves you're going to be hit with are Hydregion's Dark Pulse, TTar's Crunch, and maybe Weavile's Night Slash. Hydregion using DP is rare, TTar using Crunch while Lucario is on the opposing team instead of pursuit even more so, and Weavile's not even that common. And even it will be using pursuit more than Night Slash.
  6. ShootingStarmie

    ShootingStarmie
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    +2 Espeed does not KO Scizor. Are you being serious? Yes Close Combat at +2 OHKOs, but like I said Bullet is still doing a butt load, regardless of whether it resists it or not. Terrakion is even weaker to priority than Lucario is, so no, it isn't outclassed. Lucario also has much better coverage than Terrakion, as Lucario can get past bulky Ground type like Glicsor and Garchomp, unlike Terrakion, with Ice Punch.

    Also, it doesn't matter if it only takes 3%, it's still taking damage, which is bad for such a frail Pokemon. Also, you haven't provided any argument as to why Lucario should be A rank, or do you agree with me about Lucario being a B rank Pokemon?

    Please bare in mind that Lucario is often paired up with Pokemon often weak to Dark type attacks, but Lucario shouldn't be switching into Tyranitar anyway, mainly because banded Crunch still hurts (like 30%? don't quote that), and after 2 Crunches plus a defence drop, Scizor will be able to revenge it with Bullet Punch. This also isn't facotoring in your opponent predicting the Lucario sweep and KOing it with Super Power, and it also isn't factoring any previous damage on Lucario. Lucario should be switching in after Tyranitar has Pursuit trapped something, like Gengar or Latios, forcing the switch, and setting up a Swords Dance at 97% health.

    And this has come from experience, not just thoerymoning. I based my first gen 5 team around SD Lucario, which peeked 2nd on the OU ladder on PS. I used it for over a year, and I know how good it is, but I also know Lucario most of the time has shortcomings.
  7. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Mad, mad love
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    If you've used Lucario as much as I have, you should know that it is much MUCH better than you're giving it credit for, and that it has a very easy time setting up. Also, you are most definitely theorymoning since you aren't actually providing calcs for the damages you're mentioning. Bullet Punch from Scizor does hurt, but it isn't even kind of a way for you to count on beating Lucario, as Banded Bullet Punch does between 38-45% to Lucario, which leaves you with about half health after Rocks and Life Orb. But then what? If you were relying on Scizor to revenge Lucario, then your team can't handle the remaining turns Lucario has to beat you. Plus, lets say you think Lucario is going to SD so you switch into Scizor, but actually it just goes straight for the Close Combat. You just took 72.88 - 85.71%, and Lucario can now guaranteed kill you with a non-boosted Extremespeed (16.03 - 19.24%, which at minimum is 100% assuming Rocks 12%+72%+16%=100%).

    Also, the way you talk about using Lucario is, in my opinion, wrong. Lucario shoudl be paired with something like Celebi or Espeon, which can BP as Tyranitar/Scizor Pursuits, thus giving him the +1 boost from Justified, and another from Swords Dance or simply attack the switchin with an insanely powerful Close Combat at +2 (or even at +0 assuming you didn't BP in Lucario). Honestly, everyone should be using the Bullet Punch+Extremespeed set, in my opinion. It demolishes offensive teams as seen in this battle I always show people when they doubt Lucario. That is how you're supposed to sweep with Lucario. I'm not even sure where I want Lucario, as I can see him easily being B+ or A-, but I just want to make sure people understand how amazing he is in practice.
    The Jaiho likes this.
  8. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Yeah honestly anyone who doubts the effectiveness of SD Lucario in this metagame has obviously never used it. It's absolutely insane at +2, KOing pretty much everything that doesn't resist CC, and sometimes KOing things that do resist it. Extremespeed can also net some important KOs in Breloom, Tornadus, Thundurus-T, Starmie, Tornadus, Volcarona, and Scarfed Salamence after Stealth Rock. The list could go on, but other then Salamence, all of those KOs are achieved without rocks, and by E-Speed, which has higher priority then Mach Punch, Ice Shard, and Bullet Punch. Once Luc sets up, it's really hard to stop it from pretty much just mopping the floor with your team. 4th moveslot syndrome sucks, but you can tailor its moveset to best fit your needs.
  9. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    Like I said earlier, SDPass SpD Celebi can boost and BP to Lucario on predicted Crunch or Pursuti. Bam Lucario at +3. Ttar will be forced out in fear of CC so Lucario can SD AGAIN. +5 Attack now. Everything will scream in fear. +5 Bullet Punch and Extremespeed 2HKOs even the bulkiest physical walls. For example, the Offensive Pivot Lando-T is 2HKOed by Espeed and is basically in KO range for any attack if its hit by CC (factoring in intimidate, making +5 Lucario +4).

    Lucario i see as the the greatest threat in B+ rank or the lowest of A-.
  10. ShootingStarmie

    ShootingStarmie
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    I never said that Scizor is the only way in beating Lucario, nor did I say it was a counter (seriously, who switches Scizor into a Lucario?), I said that priority really hurts Lucario, and if you really want me to prove that will calcs, so be it. You say Lucario should be paired up with Espeon or Celebi so that they can Baton Pass into Lucario, but if they've figured out that Celebi has Baton Pass (which is often, since it's used early game for gaining momentum), then your opponent is never going to use Pursuit on Celebi. So you Baton Pass into Lucario and take SR damage (97%), you take a Crunch from Tyranitar (70%). Now you either OHKO the Tyranitar, or set up a Swords Dance. Regardless of what you do, Scizor is going to be able to come in and revenge you.

    "252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Crunch vs 4HP/0Def Lucario (Neutral): 25% - 30% (73 - 87 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO."

    "252Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk)Bullet Punch vs 4HP/0Def -1 Lucario (Neutral): 38% - 45% (108 - 128 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO."

    But hey, I know this is very situational, and I know that not every team carries Scizor and Tyranitar (most do in this stale metagame, lol), but then where else does Lucario find a place to set up? I guess on -2 Lati@s? It's set up options are very limited in this metagame, and even if it does get to +2, Lucario often has it's sweep cut short by bulky Pokemon that outspeed him (I already listed loads in my original post, but for the sake of it...) Garchomp, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Scizor, Gengar, and Terrakion. And please don't give me that bullshit about Bullet Punch, just go read my original post.

    Also Gary, please read my original post, I list multiple Pokemon that can stop a +2 Lucario sweep.
  11. HUARGH

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    Vaporeon and Victini both in rank C is kind of strange to me, I feel both deserve B- or even just B. You really need quite some offensive power in order to bust through a rest/hydration Vaporeon in rain and this always isn't so easy due to most packing moves along the lines of wish, protect, toxic, ice beam and scald.

    Victini is a powerhouse under the sun, a choice banded V-create killing nearly everything - it also threatens the majority of weather users with its other attacks. V-create is an OHKO on every Ninetales and Abomasnow and bolt strike is a 2HKO on Politoed. Brick break and V-create both deal a lot of damage to 252hp/0def Tyranitar and CB V-create without sun is a clean 2HKO against 252/252+ hippowdon who in turn can never switch into a v-create because Victini is still faster, even after the first V-create (252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 259-306 (61.66 - 72.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).

    Victini does take 25% from stealth rock and enjoys having the sun up, which is why he should definitely not be too high - but its ability to threaten and outspeed enemy weather inducers as well as nearly OHKO'ing everything under the sun (excuse the pun) should really give him at least a B- and possible B rank - keep in mind that Ninetales arguably has the hardest time in keeping up weather, or at least compared to Politoed and T-tar/Hippow. Additionally, Victini resists psychic, ice and fire - 3 of Venusaur's weaknesses who is commonly seen on sun teams. Having physical fire type moves is also an advantage, as many physical walls have a weakness to fire (Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn...). Victini also has a guaranteed OHKO on 252/0 Dragonite after stealth rock with V-create, and OHKOs 252/252+ Gliscor with it as well.
  12. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Actually, Lucario finds it pretty easy to setup, as a lot of the metagame fears taking a Close Combat to the face. Ferrothorn, Celebi lacking Psychic, Forretress, Tyranitar, and Jirachi with proper prediction, are all easy setup fodder for Lucario.

    I think you need to remove this argument entirely. Lucario is ALWAYS going to KO Breloom at +2 with E-Speed before Breloom can even think about getting off a Mach Punch. Your Scizor argument is also pretty flawed as well. You ALWAYS assume that Lucario is going to set up on a Banded T-Tar? That's a huge assumption. Also, why are you throwing around ES from banded Nite? It does less then half, and even after that damage Lucario still has enough health to withstand recoil from Life Orb five times.

    Different variants of Lucario have problems with different Pokemon, which is why you give Lucario a move that covers a type that your team has trouble with the most. Also, all of the Pokemon you mention can withstand an E-Speed can also take a +2 Mach Punch from Breloom. Does this make Breloom B- material? Of course not. And don't tell me Spore is the ONLY reason Breloom isn't in B- rank, because that's far from the truth. Unlike Lucario, Breloom's STAB combination is commonly resisted, while Lucario can get around things like Landorus, Gliscor and Dragonite with Ice Punch. It's also MUCH faster then Adamant Breloom, which keeps it from having to rely on spamming priority moves against pretty much EVERYTHING, like Adamant Mamoswine or Timid Heatran for example.

    tl;dr You need to actually use Lucario instead of theorymon.
  13. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Victini is still C because of weather, more specifically rain. OBVIOUSLY you can run your own weather to keep Victini hitting hard with V-create, but winning the weather war is easier said than done. I wouldn't have any doubt in my mind that Victini and maybe even Darmanitan would be OU and B- or A-rank without Drizzle (hell, they wouldn't even need Drought), but that's only theorymon and doesn't apply to the metagame.

    I'm not entirely sure why Vaporeon's dropped in usage so much (probably because Jellicent is immune to Fighting-type attacks AND spinblocks) but I wouldn't be totally adverse to B-. She's still very difficult to OHKO without a boost and she passes absolutely massive Wishes.
  14. DoABarrelRoll

    DoABarrelRoll

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    Victini suits low B rank imo. While V-create is incredibly powerful (stronger than Kyurem-B's Outrage), rain is everywhere and T-tar gets a free switch-in, ready to pursuit poor Victini. Stealth Rock is also a huge pain for it. Victini, however, has the ability to destroy politoed and many abusers of rain with Bolt Strike, something not many fire-types can boast.

    I think bisharp should be C rank. It may lack the bulk to take a hit, but it can really surprise if it does manage to set up a Swords Dance. +2 LO Sucker Punch coming off 125 physical attack is nothing to scoff at. The problem is how do you set up that SD, though.
  15. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Bisharp could actually set up on the Steels that wall him thanks to Taunt though, which stops Skarmory's Whirlwind, Ferro's Leech Seed/Thunder Wave and Forretress's hazards.

    The other problem is that Sucker Punch can easily be worked around, and Bisharp relies on it more thanks to its low speed. Oh and it's complete musketeer bait: Keldeo resists both STABs while Terrakion abuses Justified boosts should you try a last ditch Sucker Punch. Bisharp also doesn't take Dragon attacks too well despite its typing, which is likely the main reason people shy away from Lucario, as most people don't want to pack a second Steel on their team just because their first one doesn't do the job at all.
  16. GOthee

    GOthee

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    Isnt bisharp slower than Skarmory? . I would rather swords dance on the switch and then Superpower/Brick Break before he whirlwinds me so i can at least weak my counter.
  17. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Skarmory can't afford to run much speed; Bisharp can. Bisharp learning Superpower? You wish, he'd be so much better than he is right now because Low Kick / Brick Break isn't doing quite enough to the likes of Scizor, Ferrothorn and Forretress even after a Swords Dance.
  18. Takion

    Takion

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    I never stated he OHKOd Scizor with a +2 Extremespeed. I said he can OHKO Scizor and Breloom with a +2 Close combat and Extremespeed Respectively

    Stealth Rocks has such a insignificance on Lucario, I just dont see how 3% is so valuable to him.

    As to him being in A- Rank. Everyone has made arguments, Im Indifferent. I definitly know he shouldnt be below B+.
  19. LucaroarkZ

    LucaroarkZ

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    I'm not going to make an argument as to if Lucario should be in A- or B+ (but it definitely shouldn't be higher than A- or lower than B+), but... Did someone seriously just bring up "well that 3% breaks Focus Sash?" Really? When was the last time any competent player used Focus Sash Lucario? Exactly, never.

    "Scizor can revenge under certain circumstances" (or whatever, ShootinStarmie said something along these lines)

    Very situational, and if you're actually relying on weakening Lucario to the point where Scizor's Bullet Punch can KO a -1 Lucario, then you should probably give your team another look because that's not the most reliable strategy.

    "I list multiple Pokemon that can stop a +2 Lucario sweep."

    List of Pokemon that can stop a +2 Breloom sweep:

    -Dragonite
    -Salamence
    -Latios
    -Latias
    -Celebi
    -Volcarona
    -Starmie
    -Basically anything faster that resists Mach Punch

    omg, Breloom totes shouldn't be in A-rank!!!!!!!!11 /end sarcasm

    These Pokemon can stop a +1 Dragonite sweep:

    -Mamoswine
    -Terrakion
    -ScarfChomp
    -ScarfMence
    -Scarf Landorus
    -Scarf Lati@s
    -ScarfRachi
    -Scarf Kyurem-B
    -Focus Sash + HP Ice Alakazam
    -Landorus-T
    -Blah blah blah long list....

    Dragonite should totally be demoted!!!!! (still sarcasm)

    So, umm.... Tell me why you made that argument again? Everything is beaten by some number of Pokemon.

    "Keldeo can be stopped by Jellicent, Tentacruel, Dragonite, Celebi, Amoonguss, Lati@s, Toxicroak, and so on depending on its moveset, why is it in S-rank?" <- You may as well say that right there. Of course there's going to be a good number of Pokemon that can stop another Pokemon's sweep in one way or another. There better be. What does matter, though, is how much team support is needed in order to pave the way for a sweep, and how effectively it can sweep. Saying something is bad because *insert list of Pokemon here* can stop its sweep is a comment that simply reeks of theorymon. Before saying what rank a Pokemon should/shouldn't be in.... Use it. Of course there is always going to be a certain degree of subjectivity in these rankings, but you people need to stop making arguments based on theorymon. So stop making arguments based off of theorymon before I turn off the internet. Ok just kidding guys, I'm not gonna turn off the internet. But seriously, theorymon arguments are never good arguments.
  20. ShootingStarmie

    ShootingStarmie
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    You're comparing Breloom and Dragonite with Lucario as if they can only pull off a physical sweeping set? You're saying that it's fine that Dragonite is A rank because it has checks / counters? No, that isn't the reason. Both Dragonite and Breloom has much more going for then other than one sweeping set.

    Let's start with Breloom. Breloom has one of the best moves in the game, Spore. Breloom can get you basically two kills in a game if it gets a free switch in. Breloom also doesn't have to stick to using Swords Dance, as it can run a full physical attacker set.

    Dragonite can fill so many roles in a team, not just a Dragon Dance set. Parashuffler, Bulky DD, Rain sweeper, Rain Shuffler, the list goes on. Dragonite's move pool is incredible, and Dragonite can easily fit into a team with the amount of roles it can fit.

    So no, don't compare Lucario to Dragonite and Breloom when Lucario's only legit set is SD (please don't start mentioning stupid stuff like Choice Specs Lucario).

    Also, for everyone's information, I don't know why everyone thinks I'm theorymoning, but I've used Lucario for over a year in one of my previous OU teams. I know how good it is, and I know how BW2 has made it harder for Lucario to sweep, making him less viable.
  21. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Why does it matter how versatile a Pokemon is when it can pull of one set incredibly well? Sure, verastility means a lot, but Lucario is one of the best users of SD in the tier because of its access to two priority moves, great movepool, and the ability to mop the floor with even Skarmory at +2. Breloom can't do that, Dragonite can't do that either. Both are A-Rank for their owns reasons. D-Nite is very versatile and good at pretty much everything it does, while Breloom can use the broken Spore and boosted priority. Remember, we were initially arguing on how effective Lucario's SD set was in this metagame, not how versatile Lucario is compared to other A-Rank Pokemon. Also, maybe use Lucario some more? Seriously, I don't see how Lucario has it that much harder in BW2. He's still as good as ever on my teams. Maybe you're just not using him right.
  22. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    Lucario is probably the best Espeed abuser there is (other than ExtremeArceus). +2 Lucario is amazing in OU, if it gets to +3, you're screwed. In Ubers, SD Lucario is pretty good late game (its just outclassed by Arceus).

    Considering how easy it is to get to +3 (because everyone has TTar+Lando), Lucario just sweeps much more easily. Ive had several matches against teams with Ttar+Landorus. Ttar tried to Pursuit my Celebi and I BP'ed to Lucario. +1 Atk. Ttar switched out in fear of CC. I SD as he switched. +3 atk now. 6-0 him, and it was like turn 5 when I started sweeping like crazy.
  23. Kidogo

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    SDluke is great if it gets a boost. Honestly, not even all that great imo (+2 terra is a lot scarier, for example), but still very threatening and a really good late-game cleaner. That's it. That is what luke is, and it's very good at that one job. On the other hand, it's frail, has limited coverage, still gets walled no matter what moveset it chooses, and basically has only one stab. How could you even compare this to something like dnite in terms of overall effectiveness? Sure, as I said, luke is a great endgame-cleaner. But dnite can be that with a CB set spamming espeeds much stronger than unboosted luke's, or a wallbreaker with a LO set, or a sweeper that is much harder to wall with a DD set, or a full special set, or a defensive DD set, or a shuffler set, or...that is why dnite is a higher rank than luke--sure, luke may have one pretty effective set, but dnite has a ton of them, which in practice makes it much more useful than luke the majority of the time.

    Also just wanted to mention--when exactly are you setting luke up? yes, there is the very convenient situation of the opp who is foolish enough to pursuit a celebi, but not that many teams have ttar (look at the OU stats). So...does luke just not get used in all those other games? That's the problem--with the right circumstances, he can be devastating...but without them, he's meh. B+ imo.
  24. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    About the Lucario matter, I agree for it being A-, but no more than that. It is extremely strong after +2, and can 2HKO most physical walls with Close Combat, in addition, most fast Pokémon are not going to be taking Extremespeed anytime soon. On a metagame where the necessity to use Pursuit to trap and take out many threats to top Pokémon such as Keldeo and Sheer Force Landorus, Lucario gets many setup opportunities.

    But it is extremely hard to get a setup opportunity on anything that isn't a Dark-type or Rock-type attack, as even resisted moves do a number on Lucario. Sadly, it cannot use Focus Sash, as without the power of Life Orb, it can't achieve the aforementioned 2HKOs and OHKOs. There are also many faster Pokémon that can take a boosted Extremespeed and OHKO back, such as NP Celebi and Garchomp. Also, it has four-moveslot syndrome. Without Ice Punch, it is walled by Gliscor, Dragonite, and Landorus-T, while without Crunch, it is walled by Ghost-types; without Bullet Punch, Lucario is prone to being revenge killed by Scarf Tyranitar, Scarf Terrakion and Gengar.

    Lucario is just one of those Pokémon that should be used well to win games; but take out the aforementioned threats, and there is nothing stopping Lucario from sweeping your entire team; it can easily do that if you are not prepared.
  25. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    Technically CB Dragonite IS boosted (as Choice Band makes Dnites Attack become 604). While CB luke can't compare to CB Nite, Dnite has an arguably worse typing. Most of the resists Dnite has, Lucario also has (bar the water and fire ones). But in exchange for neutrality to water and weak to fire and fighting, Lucario has Dragon, steel, and dark resists. Dragon and Steel IMO, are much more defining types in the metagame, with Latios and Scizor running amok. And Lucario can kill both of these with the appropriate move.

    With everything running Mamoswine/Weavile/*insert Ice Shard user* to check dragons and Lando-I, Lucario's resists allow him to set up on nearly every single one (and just KOs Mamoswine with CC/Bullet Punch). All of them fear Bullet Punch/CC to the face.

    Plus, Dragnite just isn't as good in the metagame anymore. In BW1, it was an excellent pokemon, IMO underrated, as it had so many sets. But in BW2, its slow, and common scarfers resist Espeed.Those common scarfers are scared of Bullet Punch (cough Terrakion) and Lucario just blows them apart.

    Also bulkier threats have come along (cough Garchy, 88 HP Lando-I and Keldy) and can take banded Espeeds with relative ease and KO back with the appropriate moves.

    Is Dragonite a great pokemon? YES

    Is it a good user of Espeed? YES.

    However is it a better use of Espeed than Lucario? No. Lucario can bypass scarf mons with other priority moves (Bullet Punch, and NP variants can run Vacuum Wave), Dragonite can't because its too slow, and its other notable priority, Aqua Jet, is weak without rain support. Plus, it Aqua Jet lacks STAB on Dnite.

    Lucario can switch in many times, because it 4x resists Rocks (which are ubiquitous). Dnite is weak to it, so it can only switch in 4 times before its dead. While Lucario is weak to Spikes, that is far less common.

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