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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Vemane

    Vemane

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    I don't like jirachi (enough for s)

    It was better in torn t era
    It relies on hax which means 40%/30%/whatever you will get screwed (focus blast, people)
    Can't take boosted water attacks like a good special wall should
  2. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest GHOSTS
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    I think Azelf could make it to Low B-Rank, maybe even mid. He's an awesome SR lead with his amazing Speed and Taunt, allowing him to set up SR quickly while Taunting shit, hence preventing them from getting their own hazards up or setting up. Azelf also has Thunderbolt+Fire Blast to nail Xatu on the switch while hurting Ferrothorn and Forretress. Deoxys-D leaving is pretty big too, so Azelf has less competition in his role as a SR setter. He can also serve as a Dual Screens setter if you need those, and is good at that. His offensive stats are pretty awesome and he can also take on the role as a special attacker, and hits pretty hard in general. But anyways, I think Azelf is a good asset to offensive teams and probably deserves Low B-Rank.

    I'm torn on Jirachi, but leaning towards keeping Lucario in B. He's kinda disappointing without Espeed and is frail as hell, but he's still pretty damn deadly, making him suitable for Top B at least.

    Btw, a point I brought up earlier:

    So yeah, Scolipede for C-Rank.
  3. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    It's more stupid getting hard walled by Jellicent, Gliscor and Landorus-T, who have extremely different counters and are likely to be around even during lategame, when Lucario is, you know, supposed to set up.
    Lucario needs to cover at least one of them with either Crunch or Ice Punch.

    By saying that Lucario has to run Bullet Punch for Terrakion you're just confirming that it needs a significant amount of support not to get walled by some of the most common and sturdiest walls in OU.
  4. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    I think Lucario offers enough reward to be considered above B-Rank. Priority spam is still viable because of the faster pace of the metagame, what with Terrakion and Gengar being more popular, and as for the three Luke counters you mentioned in Jellicent, Scor and Lando-T (Lando-I's lack of Intimidate could put it at risk of E-Speed), I immediately see that Kyurem-B wrecks their shit, and can lure Steels for Luke to seize its much talked-about "golden setup opportunity". I wouldn't really say Luke needs a ton of support, all he needs is for his checks/counters to be weakened and a setup opportunity (harder to do, yes) to clean up. This can be said for a majority of sweepers in general, but considering most of these are in A or S Rank anyway I don't really see why Lucario cannot join their ranks. Keep in mind that its priority is still useful outside of SD, keeping frailer threats at bay.
  5. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
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    I definately do not agree with you when you say that it "relies on hax". You wont "get screwed" 30 percent of the time, as Jirachi has very good natural bulk with the usual max HP. Also, this entire post is only focusing on a single set, which makes your angle a pretty narrow perception of the pokemon, considering the fact that Jirachi can run many different sets effectively. With the amount of versatility Jirachi can bestow to many different types of teams, focusing on a single set just isn't gonna cut it :|
  6. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Jirachi has:
    a) A great movepool
    b) Versatility
    c) A great typing with few weaknesses(two, who can be easily countered)
    d) Balanced Stats
    Which other mons fit that kind of role?Metagross(my fav) who finds it hard sweeping in the speed-based meta, Haxorus(always underrated but that's seperate) amongst a select list of few mons.
    Jirachi deserves S-rank because it poses both a defensive threat as well as an offensive threat to opposing teams while carrying versatility that lets it run surprise sets.

    People might rant at me for this, but I'm nominating Terrakion for A+. Honestly, I find Terrakion one of the most overrated mons ever. Agreed, it's fast. Agreed it's got good coverage. But just because people are too lazy to look to the lower tiers to find counters, it shouldn't be S-rank.
    Can Terrakion honestly do that? It needs a counter to Ghost types who wall it to no end. It needs a counter to any Mach Punch user with decent attack. It needs a counter to any water/grass type that just happens to outspeed it or a water/grass type that has priority. It needs a counter to any Psychic type with decent bulk and resists to STABs.
    Come on guys, Terrakion can sweep but it needs a hell lot of team support.
  7. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
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    Nope, Banded Terrakion can 2HKO all of OU except for Landorus-T. the minimum amount of damage Banded Terrakion can deal is 37.38 - 44.14% to Cresselia. That's still a huge chunk of health. And aside from Landorus-T, most of Terrakion's counters are huge liabilities in the rest of the OU metagame. Golurk's one niche is countering Terrakion, and outside of that it's dead weight. Also, this is only one set. Terrakion can also run a lead Stealth Rock set, a Scarf set, Sub Salac set, a Double Dance set, and an All-Out Attacker set in addition to Band. It's funny how easily Terrakion can rip through its counters consdering things like Landorus-T don't have any reliable recovery and can't take more than two Stone Edges. He's definitely worthy of S rank.
    Jaiho likes this.
  8. superstar

    superstar

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    I'm still not sold on Scolipede. I'd rather use Custap Forretress for the Spikes/TSpikes role, since I think it does so more reliably. The being said, I do think it has a niche as a fast Spiker that can beat taunters Forry loses to, so I'd be fine putting it in C-Rank

    I'm really torn on Terrakion. It doesn't have a single spammable STAB like Keldeo does, so it is hard to argue its choice sets are S-Rank since they rely on 50-50 SE/CC predictions a lot. (I don't see any Choiced Terrakions ever). It's SR lead set is very good, but not really enough to make it S-Rank. SubSalac is solid, but priority users can be tough to take out.

    However, Ghost-types walling it? Jellicent and Gengar sure don't do that. Conkeldurr, Breloom, and Scizor are on a lot of teams, but they sure as hell can't switch into Terrakion. Most water and grass types don't like taking a Stone Edge (Celebi and Gyarados) or Close Combat (everything else) either. Finally, the two most viable Psychic types, Celebi and Alakazam, take a ton from Stone Edge or even Close Combat. Golurk and Claydol are essentially inviable, and are dead weight when your opponent lacks a Terrakion.

    I don't think Terrakion is as good as Keldeo, Landorus, or Politoed, but I think it's definitely a cut above the Latis, Garchomp, etc. I think S-Rank is a good place for it.
  9. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    You are understimating CombatEdge coverage backed by 129 Attack. You 2HKO (at worst) all but one Pokemon in OU. Period. There are 6 Pokemon who are not 2HKOd by Choice Band Terrakion, and the only one in OU relies on Intimidate to sponge the hit.

    Golurk, Nidoqueen, and Tangrowth have no business being in OU outside of stuffing Terrakion. Cresselia is slightly more excusable, but reaching into RU (or BL2) to find a counter to one Pokemon is only evidence of how insanely powerful he is. Slowbro has a niche AS A PHYSICAL FIGHTING-TYPE COUNTER. That is literally what Slowbro does and it's like asking why Latios is OU when SpDef Jirachi takes paltry amounts from even Specs Draco Meteor. Landorus-T is self-explanatory, I'm not spending any more time on it.

    Ghosts wall Terrakion? You realize Golurk is the only Ghost outside of Ubers who is not 2HKOd by Choice Band Stone Edge, right? Because PDef Jellicent is 2HKOd by Choice Band Stone Edge. SpDef Jellicent is OHKOd after Rocks and a little prior damage. Jellicent can stomach ONE Stone Edge and try to cripple with Will-O-Wisp or Scald. If either doesn't take (and Stone Edge doesn't miss, but Stone Edge has a better chance to hit than Will-O-Wisp or Scald burning), then your "wall" was just crushed. Weakness to Mach Punch/Bullet Punch and weakness to all the boosted Water attacks is keeping Terrakion out of Ubers, not reason to drop him from S. Terrakion IS the team support. Need Dragonite to sweep but Skarmory won't go away? Stone Edge 2HKOs. SpDef Jirachi got your Latios feeling down? Close Combat 2HKOs. Landorus-T preventing Lucario from sweeping? Oh, that's cool, Close Combat and Stone Edge have such incredible synergy that the last two slots are free, so Terrakion's got Hidden Power Ice that 2HKOs after Rocks with a Naive nature.
  10. ciaranroy

    ciaranroy

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    I think Terrak is better than Keldeo. I think Keldeo should be A+ Rank. It's counters are just too common, rendering it dead weight too much of the time. It basically needs Pursuit support to pull off a sweep most of the time. It's STABs aren't great and it gets walled by Celebi, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Gyarados, Toxicroak and Dragonite (maybe more). It can use Hidden Powers to get past certain threats, but it will still be invariably walled by something. I find it far too easy to counter to warrant S Rank.
  11. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    HP Ice? I have never seen a Terrakion in my time playing BW running HP Ice. 72 base SpA is so terrible that it can barely 2HKO Landorus-T with HP Ice. I think you're thinking of Mienshao? It has a MUCH more usable special attack stat then Terrakion, and can properly abuse use it to use Hidden Power Ice or Grass Knot. You should never run HP Ice on Terrakion, period. Waste of a moveslot.
  12. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    Why would HP Ice be a wasted moveslot? Between Stone Edge and Close Combat, Terrakion can run whatever. Why do you think so many Terrakion's run both Stone Edge and Rock Slide? Terrakion's versatility is to the point that he can run basically whatever the hell he wants in those last two moveslots, and if they eliminate or severely damage his checks, then all the better.
  13. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Ok I just need to sort out everything since these ranking threads (the discussion, not the actual rankings, PK's doing an astounding job). First of all I was looking for a quote that Lavos said before when it came to Breloom's potential promotion to S-Rank but I couldn't find it. It goes something along the lines of "We are going back to Deo-D again, 4MSS isn't a good thing" That sums up what people are saying about Terrakion.

    First off Tangrowth and Slowbro can shove off X-Scissors unless its CB (even then I think it doesn't get 2HKOed after Lefties, I'll put all the calcs in the end) as it barely does more damage than a non-SE Stone Edge. Terrakion is a LOT worse than Keldeo now as it basically has a more severe case of what ciaranroy said when it comes to being too easy to counter. There are multiple occasions in teambuilding that you can easily just get ~3 checks to Terrakion without even taking it into too much consideration. Let's say I have a team around KelTarLando (probably the 2nd most common teams to see in comp. play). Won't you look at that, I already have a (probably) scarfer to check CB Terrakion and speed tie with opp scarf terrakion, a lure for CC so Lando gets free setup. To continue to elaborate on that, most of these teams will probably pack a Celebi, Jirachi, or Landorus-Therian (It's not even that uncommon to pack all three). If Jirachi is scarfed it revenges CB Terrakion, Celebi can take switch into CCs and forces Terrakion to rely on SE's accuracy or odd prediction with X-Scissor, which subsequently leads to Landorus setup, unless it has X-Scissor without a choice set, which is dumb. and lastly Landorus-Therian is there as easily the most viable Terrakion check. Sand Offense teams even tend to carry Scizor or Rotom-W, who even though they don't really check Terrakion (scizor does), is something Terrakion doesn't appreciate. Rain Offense isn't really as kind to it as Tentacruel can stop some CC's while Ferrothorn stops the SE's. Even then they are revenged by Scarf Keldeo given proper speed tie or Politoed at Full HP. Scarf Terrakion doesn't really have enough power to muscle through FerroCruel anyway. The idea that Terrakion isn't really threatening much team matchup-wise (an essence of BW2 OU) also shows in the Smogon Tour usage stats by kd24.

    That actually makes me remember that Latios also fares well vs most Terrakion

    Yeah so as we can see, Terrakion really dropped here in usage due to having not really performing well against prevalent styles in the competitive scene. I also just wanna briefly go over sun, Dugtrio TRAPS it while Venu/Sawsbuck/Lilligant revenges it so that's not a great matchup as that's 50% of their offense (I also wanna point out that Scarf Gothitelle revenge kills it, but I'm not sure if I'm the only one who uses that in Sun).

    Now let's move on and see why Keldeo is so good. I think the magic rule that makes Keldeo really solid in this metagame is "what doesn't counter Keldeo is checked by Keldeo". I think that applies for 80% of the metagame now. Let's use these stats just as a quick example. The Keldeo checks we see here are Celebi, Latios, Latias, Amoongus, Chlorophyll sweepers, and Starmie. That I think sums up every single bit of what I see that truly counters Keldeo (Rotom-W and Alakazam are shaky at best). So let's see what that leaves by descending down on the usage and see if Keldeo checks them.


    [BOX]
    1.] Jirachi: --------- 44.74% (one of the few exceptions to my rule)
    2.] Landorus-T: ---- 31.58% (checked by Keldeo)
    3.] Politoed: -------- 28.95% (Politoed's existence actually HELPS Keldeo, Scarf Keldeo also revenge kills a majority of rain mons.)
    4.] Keldeo: --------- 27.63% (mirror)
    5.] Scizor: ---------- 27.63% (checked by Keldeo)
    6.] Rotom-W: ------- 26.32% (Shaky check)
    7.] Starmie: --------- 22.37%
    8.] Tyranitar: ------- 22.37% (Checked by keldeo)
    9.] Landorus: ------- 19.74% (Checked by keldeo before boost, you can't really say Lando beats Keldeo well either)
    10.] Garchomp: ------ 19.74% (Checked by keldeo)
    11.] Thundurus-T: --- 17.11% (Checked by keldeo)
    12.] Latias: ---------- 17.11%
    13.] Skarmory: ------- 17.11% (an odd exception, Brave Bird nails Keldeo on the switchin and such but Keldeo can easily muscle through skarm)
    14.] Forretress: ----- 14.47% (Checked by keldeo)
    15.] Kyurem-B: ------ 14.47% (Checked by keldeo)
    16.] Ferrothorn: ------ 15.79% (Checked by keldeo after a bit of prior damage)
    17] Latios: ---------- 14.47%
    18.] Heatran: -------- 13.16% (Checked by keldeo)
    19.] Gengar: ---------- 13.16% (Revenged killed by most Keldeo)
    20.] Dragonite: ------- 11.84% (Checked by keldeo)
    21.] Celebi: ---------- 11.84%
    22.] Ninetales: ------- 10.53% (Checked by keldeo sorta)
    23.] Breloom: -------- 10.53% (Checked by keldeo)
    24.] Hippowdon: ----- 10.53% (Checked by keldeo)
    25.] Alakazam: ------- 10.53%
    26.] Amoongus: ------ 9.21%
    27.] Venusaur: ------- 9.21%
    28.] Terrakion: ------- 9.21% (Checked by keldeo)
    [/BOX]

    From there we can see that Keldeo revenge kills 60.7% of relevant threats in the metagame with its SE coverage and speed, which is a great feat to have and is definitely S-Rank deserving. If that isn't enough, I'm just going to bring out a point that has been exhausted many times, which is the point of KelTar and other cores that can work with Keldeo. The thing about Keldeo's checks is that most of them are very exploitable, first of all the ones up in the tier list have trouble with Pursuit, which leads to KelTar being great, and there are a few other things that work here such as partnering decently with Thundurus-T+Scizor combo in rain teams. Another thing to look at is Keldeos amazing synergy with Signal Beam/Tbolt/Psyshock Gothitelle, who can trap a majority of Keldeo's checks. This shows that even the Pokemon that check Keldeo are easily exploitable with a few exceptions, which were primarily built JUST to beat Keldeo. To me, that definitely warrants an S-Rank.

    I think that justified Keldeo>Terrakion rather well, and if anything just showed why Terrakion should drop rather than Keldeo. Damn, that felt like one of those debate challenges in serenesforest
  14. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Because his special attacking stat is so bad! Although it's not a COMPLETE waste, I would much rather run Rock Slide/Earthquake or even Quick Attack on the fourth slot. Rock Slide is very useful for stressful situations when missing Stone Edge could lose you the game, such as a +1 Volcarona with Giga Drain, or a +1 Salamence. Earthquake is nice for Jirachi who can Wish stall Close Combat on Scarfed variants until it has enough defense drops to KO it with Iron Head. It's also nice for Tentacruel switch ins. Quick Attack is more useful on the banded sets, but can be really nice against opposing Breloom or weakened Choice Scarf Pokemon. So yeah, HP Ice isn't a complete waste, but Terrakion would much make better use of his fourth move slot with an extra bit of coverage or a backup STAB. HP Ice would always require a lot of prediction, since Landorus-T, Gliscor, or Garchomp could just OHKO back with EQ next turn. Overall, you'd have to be pretty ballzy to run HP Ice on Terrakion.
  15. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Hidden Power Ice isn't actually that bad of an idea in conjunction with Work Up. Here's where the problems start though. Terrakion needs some SpA investment if he wants to KO something like Gliscor or Landorus-T or Garchomp. Second, Terrakion rocking Work Up is a sure sign of HP Ice. HP Ice in general is pretty niche. That's why team support exists man!
    TBH, Terrakion, with something like SD, CC, SE, and Quick Attack is deadlier.
  16. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    We're mostly arguing how it fares on his Choice sets, not sweeping set. Lol, Work Up.
  17. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    The above user said all that I wanted to use. I've seen a calculation that one user made a time ago that a boosted (CB, SD, etc) Stone Edge actually does more damage to Gliscor than Hidden Power Ice (this calculation was made on the BW1 era so I can't be sure that the same can be said to Landorus-T).

    Even Stealth Rock and Toxic are much more useful moves on choice sets, despite them being risky to use. The above user forgot to mention Sacred Sword (can bypass some Bulk Up and Curse abusers, although it is extremely situtional since Conkeldurr can use Mach Punch and CurseLax shouldn't be used; but it is also useful when Close Combat's defense drops are undesirable) and Double Kick (very weak but can be used to break substitutes).

    As for Jirachi, I am still in doubt if it is worth of S-Rank. I would agree for it becoming S-Rank if someone can address these points (yes I know that each set is excellent, please do not say that I am trying to make Jirachi seems worse than it is):


    1. The specially defensive set is excellent, but it cannot wall some of the most used special attackers on the metagame. They include Landorus, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, as well as other less used but still notable special attackers like Heatran and Volcarona. The specially defensive set also cannot take rain-boosted Water-type attacks from offensive Pokémon like Starmie.
    2. Both Calm Mind sets have a problem: coverage. The combination of Thunder(bolt) and Psyshock is walled by the Lati twins, Hydreigon, Celebi, Heatran and Tyranitar. The combination of Thunder(bolt) and Flash Cannon is walled by Electric-types, Heatran and Gastrodon. The combination of Thunder and Water Pulse is walled by Gastrodon and most Grass- and Dragon-types. Each of these threats can only be bypassed with multiple boosts.
    3. The Choice Scarf set cannot revenge kill Volcarona and can only revenge kill Pokémon like Salamence, Terrakion, and Landorus, if they do not have boosts. This set also has to use situtional moves like Zen Headbutt and ThunderPunch to revenge kill pokémon like Keldeo and Gyarados, respectively.
    Considering the aforementioned points, is Jirachi really worth of S-Rank?
  18. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    OK, 3 mons here: keldy, terra, and rachi.

    Keldeo is mostly worthy of S-rank imo. Rain essentially gives it base 200 SpA, meaning that in order to check it you have to be a very SpD mon very invested in SpD with a water resist and resist fighting. Really, not many mons do this. Sure, there are some good mons that beat it--lati@s, celebi, jellicent, etc.--but these generally have to be used specifically for this purpose as something like specstios is just gonna get 2HKOed after SR by scarfdeo's hpump in rain. There's a reason that SpDbi has been on the rise lately, and even that isn't safe given the possibility of hp bug. Overall, good offensive typing, great spammable STAB, essentially base 200 SpA for his main attack, decent defensive typing, the ability to be pseudo-mixed, and a variety of good sets mean S-tier. Not a whole lot of variety and his checks are viable for a lot of other stuff, so I could actually see A+ here.

    Terra is S-tier without a doubt in my mind. This thing has a TON of viable sets, and it is literally the standard for physical attackers this gen. Fantastic offensive coverage, incredibly spammable STABs, a huge huge huge number of viable sets, and no counters. Yes, NO counters. Tangrowth/slowbro are as close as it gets, but CB SE is still hitting super damn hard, and +2 rock gem SE has a 75% chance to OHKO slowbro after rocks. Meanwhile, stuff like gliscor and landy can handle it decently, sure, but they don't have reliable recovery (assuming gliscor lacks roost given 4MSS). So bandkion is gonna get past landy-t every match, since even with intimidate MAX DEFENSE landy-t is 3HKOed by SE disregarding lefties and SR. Basically, it can come in once to check it, and then terra will 2HKO it the next time it comes in and can sweep with CC afterwards. Terra also has a SR resist, meaning it can come in basically for free the majority of the time to repeat this process. A fantastic movepool is a huge advantage over keldeo--this thing gets like every set-up move it could ask for (bar DD or shell smash lol) and even great utlity moves such as substitute, quick attack, SR, and taunt. It even gets a SpD boost in sand, letting it survive stuff like keldeo's hpump 70% of the time. It has more viable sets than any other OU mon I can name (bar rachi itself perhaps), has perhaps one true counter in roost gliscor (non-existent), is incredibly versatile, fulfills a multitude of roles, and is easy to fit on a team. S for sure.

    Rachi is tricky, but I don't see it as S for a couple reasons. The first is that while it is very good in a lot of roles, it isn't THAT good in any of them. It never poses more than a medium offensive threat (I'd even argue that subCMrachi is more of a defensive threat that uses its defenses to boost). Add to this that it lacks what is emerging more and more as one of the most important hallmarks of a SpD wall--a water resist--and while it is perhaps the #1 special wall in OU, it really doesn't scream head-and-shoulders above the crowd to me. A great utility mon, but it's not really walling or sweeping whole teams, or wowing you with its prowess. A+ really seems like an appropriate place for this.
  19. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
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    About the specially defensive set. Yes, not walling water types (like keldeo) is not very good, but if you are running Body Slam, Thundurus-T is not that big of a threat to Jirachi~

    252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Jirachi: 123-145 (30.44 - 35.89%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    About the CM sets, then they both serve 2 different roles. The Sub+CM set is extremely bulky after a Calm Mind or 2 on both sides, so the point of that set is to make substitutes that fail to break, and then proceed to hit foes. It''s not that hard to get to +3 / +4 with this set, and it also beats anything in a Calm Mind war if you use Psyshock.

    The point of the Superachi set is to get up usually a single Calm Mind and then shit on the opponents team, and trust me. This set has coverage for ya. There are 2 different coverage options you can use, both of which only have about 2-3 counters. You can read about it in the first reply i posted, under the Pros And Cons of the superachi set.

    Now the Choice Scarf set. Most of the battle, the Choice Scarf set is to be used the following way: switch in on something that any Jirachi counters, take a small hit (with the many resistances of Steel / Psychic) and then click U-Turn for some lovely momentum. The other thing you can use it for, as you pointed out, is revenge killing. The third thing though, is spamming Iron Head. This set can also sometimes rely on hax, and hell, the odds are in your favor here too :^D But that aside, I do think that Scarf Jirachi is a bit meh myself, I just used it to point out how versatile of a pokemon that Jirachi is :]
  20. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Wait, wait, WHAT???
    Terrakion is S-rank... but SCIZOR is A+???
    How in the world does that make sense at all? Scizor sees the most usage on all teams, is CLEARLY the king of OU, has been dominating the metagame for a long time and it's A+?
    Nominating Scizor for S-Rank
    Scizor has everything needed to be S-rank. The only TRUE counters to Scizor are Jellicent, Gyarados and Heatran. Even these mons can't completely counter Scizor because he can U-turn out for a Volt-switch user(for Jellicent and Gyarados) or for Politoed(Heatran), meaning Scizor is VERY difficult to counter.
  21. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Scizor may be very good at what he does, but his odd coverage, putting aside the fact that he's usually Choice-locked, means a myriad of dangerous threats can set up on him. Such threats include Keldeo, Volcarona, Forretress, Landorus-T, Thundurus-T, Tentacruel, Skarmory....even Heatran, Magnezone and Lucario can take advantage of Choiced Bullet Punch. All of these threats can become very dangerous after just a single turn of setup or a free turn in general, and Scizor can't keep U-Turn spamming forever because there will be times you'll go for Bullet Punch/Pursuit, the main reason you chose Scizor in the first place. Scizor is still fantastic, but his tendency to grant free setup turns for common opponents keeps him out of S imo.

    P.S. Usage does not reflect viability in the direct sense.
  22. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Further nominating Mew for A-
    Seriously? I have no clue why this mon is so underrated.
    It is ONE mon who has NO hard counter. Literally, none. Because any mon who tries to counter one set has to deal with a 100 other possible sets.'
    This mon is SOOO versatile and yet it gets TERRIBLE usage.
    Just have a look at Mew's movepool.
    With the right usage, Mew has the ability to go S-rank, let alone A-rank. Just as Celebi has been steadily coming up the ranks, equally so Mew should too.
    You think Jellicent counters it? Say hello to Shadow Ball.
    Hydreigon drives it crazy? Aura Sphere should do the trick
    Need a counter to Scizor? Pack a set with Fire Blast, that should do the trick.
    Facing issues with Keldeo? STAB Psychic of 100 SpA means not much of an issue any longer.
    The list goes on and on. Hell, ANY pokemon in OU can be countered by Mew with the right set, that's how good it is.
    Which is why it should AT LEAST go to A-, if not to S(in the future once people start using it properly).
  23. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    391
    While it's true that Mew has that fantastic movepool, it's niche as a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none means it is outclassed in nearly every role. Jirachi has a far better typing and is a better support pokemon. The lati twins have better bulk (latias) and better offense (latios) and base 100 stats across the board along with poor psychic typing mean that mew just doesn't cut it in OU, there are far better options for nearly every viable role.
    Mew is fine where it is.
  24. ciaranroy

    ciaranroy

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    119
    Nominating Alakazam for A+.
    Possibly the best revenge killer in OU, it can basically cover any weakness a team may have with certain mons. Weakness to Scizor? HP Fire. Weakness to dragons and Landorus? HP Ice. Weakness to Terrakion and Keldeo? Psyshock. Weakness to Celebi? Signal Beam. The list goes on. It's basically a catch-all revenge killer with Focus Sash and can easily clean weakened teams. It's power and speed are astonishing, and its versatile movepool means it can cover many threats. It's criminal that's in A- at the moment. It's amazing ability means it can come in several times throughout a match and switch out with no punishment. If I could think of any problems, its that its slightly lacking in power without a Life Orb, although its Special Attack is the second highest in OU (only behind Thundurus-T). It should be a top 10 Poke in my opinion.
  25. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2009
    Messages:
    260
    It has a glaring problem in that it is not only completely useless in front of Jirachi and Blissey, but they are also not easily exploitable pokemon.

    If it could survive a resisted breloom mach punch at +2, then I would say it has enough bulk to be considered "bulky enough" for OU, its lack of ability to take ANY physical hit and most special hits really holds it back.

    but the number one thing holding it back is relying on a 90 power single STAB.. and a 120 power but 70 accuracy coverage move..

    I'd rather have a pokemon with 115 SpAtk but more powerful STAB and two of them :)

    edit: What I typed above probably sounds like I don't think 'Zam should be OU, on the contrary its excellent, I just don't see it as a first class OU pokemon like... Heatran for example (who is undeniably the best pokemon since gen 4 :P)

    ^^ speaking of which, heatran isn't A+? I am surprised to say the least... Would make an argument but not bothered atm and my arguments for gastro in B got ignored -.-
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